People aren’t laughing at you because you’re Christian in Texas you morons, they’re laughing at you because you think you’re being persecuted for your religion when you live somewhere where 80 percent of the population is Christian.
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn't - so it's worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn't be in power).
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I've learned anything about political discourse it's that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can't assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
"There's literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to" - A very serious pugjesus.
Trump being worse deosn't mean we can't criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren't even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it....
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
how you intend to reshape the entire political landscape of the United States
Unions and democratic socialism. Aka, the Sanders methodology - and, aka, the way we got the New Deal
The alternative is either doing nothing and allowing conditions to continue to deteriorate, or supporting an armed revolution that will be instantly massacred by the most powerful military in human history. Neither are plausible options in the face of oligarchy
You seem to be unfamiliar with the mass labor movements and socialist movements that were present in the late 20s and 30s. FDR and his social democrats were the compromise candidates.
You speak against voting
Actually I didn't. Because, as I've now said for the 3rd time in this thread, I've voted for dems in every election I've ever been eligible to vote in.
Actually I didn’t. Because, as I’ve now said for the 3rd time in this thread, I’ve voted for dems in every election I’ve ever been eligible to vote in.
I don't who you sent those messages to, but it wasn't me.
If you can't keep your arguments straight, it's time to stop playing keyboard warrior. Go out and touch the grass.
I didn't say I told you. I said I've said it twice previously here.
You're not good at trolling btw. When you overuse personal attacks they lose their punch, and your target immediately starts to detach from the convo and see you as a cartoon, rather than see you as something that causes agitation
You'd be better off sticking to the actual substance of the disagreement for longer before you start attacking the other person and lying about the conversation. If you do that too early in then the other person will just lose interest and forget about you
Making obviously false statements is also not effective trolling. And maintaining obvious burner/multiple accounts is also not effective. You're better off when the target can't easily see through what you're doing. Which means a site with more users such as Twitter or reddit may be an easier choice for a beginner than lemmy which has fewer users - with fewer users it's easier to spot users with multiple simultaneous accounts
Before I block you for harassment, I’d like to point out how the mod logs are full of your posts being removed for trolling and uncivil name calling.
You even used autism as an insult. That’s disgusting.
Also, trolling someone by repeatedly pretending that you can’t understand what they are saying to you doesn’t come off as cute as you think it does. Especially when everyone can see that they were very clear with what they said.
You distract from the topic to bait people. It shows in your comment history. And it shows in the mod log. This person has debated you in good faith. You are trolling them.
Incorrect, observing that someone is behaving antisocially in a manner that is highly consistent with a particular type of neurodivergence is not an insult - especially on a site with a drastically disproportionate amount of autistic users such as Lemmy
It's pretty clear that you're trolling, actually. And that you have multiple accounts. And it's clear that you're not good at trolling and are insecure about it and are floundering now for some reason.
Interesting that you took particular offense to the autism remark. I wonder what that says about you and your ability to understand social cues and relate to people? We already know your written communication skills are poor - seems like the reason for that might have a neurological cause with severe social repercussions for your life. That's too bad.
You don't need to be insecure about being autistic. I'm sorry that you feel that way and are lashing out as a result
I do have access, as I have seen your removed comments. You even admitted to having accused someone of being autistic, (which was a removed comment) just as you are accusing me now of the same thing.
How would I know you did this? How could I have pointed this out- before you admitted to it… if I didn’t see this in the mod logs?
Not very clever man.
Could it be that I actually do have an alt account that has access to the logs because I am mod elsewhere? It’s not a crime to have multiple accounts on lemmy. Especially when one is a moderator.
This entire discussion is off the tracks because of you. That makes you the troll. They were arguing in good faith and you derailed the topic to hypocritically accuse them of trolling.
I’m simply pointing that out.
Also, people are now warning one another about you. I’m sure you’ll see this as a badge of honor- but it isn’t.
I do have access, as I have seen your removed comments
Yeah and my uncle is the CEO of Lemmy
even admitted to having accused someone of being autistic
Yeah because that's in a public comment that wasn't deleted by a power tripping mod
How would I know you did this if thing you admit you did- if I didn’t see this in the mod logs?
This is what I'm talking about when I say that you have poor written communication skills.
Could it be that I actually do have an alt account that has access to the logs because I am mod elsewhere? It’s not a crime to have multiple accounts on lemmy. Especially when one is a moderator.
So you now claim to have multiple accounts which you use, at least partially, to troll. And that you use your mod account (if it even exists) to facilitate your trolling by giving you access to additional information which you then use to harass your victims. Is that consistent with the site Terms of Service? I doubt it.
This entire discussion is off the tracks because of you. That makes you the troll
No, the entire discussion is off the rails because you have been using your multiple accounts to troll anyone who disagrees with you, and then have decided to cry victim when anyone stands up for themselves. The original point was that you don't understand politics. You've now made it clear that your misunderstanding of politics comes from your deeper issue of not understanding human socialization and effective communication. It's unfortunate that you have such a deficit. However, that isn't anyone else's fault, and it seems immoral of you to take it out on others.
Also, people are now warning one another about you. I’m sure you’ll see this as a badge of honor- but it isn’t.
As I said before, if you're going to lie, at least make it believeable. And, separately, messaging your one troll account from your other troll account does not mean that anyone is warning anyone.
Furthermore, you should see the messages I've received about you. If you are actually a mod then I doubt that will last for much longer
And so you know, one doesn’t need to be a mod to see the mod logs. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about here. I only need to be a mod to see them from the lemmy app I use. ANYONE can see the mod logs.
Which means, ANYONE can see your blatant lies about your comment history.
And I already admitted I have alt accounts. One of them is a mod account for two different communities. That doesn’t make one a troll. But your accusations of trolling from alts comes off as next-level IMAX projection if you ask me. It That’s just my observation. Not an accusation at all.
You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn't stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I've lived through.
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
Citation? Really? Most of social media is backed up. Go ahead and see how much the SJW’s were caring about Palestine in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023.
You do know they have been in conflict since 1948, right? You all act like this shit is new. And it shows in the fact that NONE of you gave a shit about it until now.
I voted for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020. I was arrested at a Trump protest and shot by a wooden bullet at a George Floyd protest. I've volunteered in local political initiatives to make our local government more progressive and more accountable to voters.
You know nothing about me, so you just make up things that you think discredits me? What have you done other than punch left on Lemmy?
There is nothing left about 2014 tumblr and its consequences. That was not a socialist or working class zeitgeist. And very likely was largely astroturfed by ruling class propagandists
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn't give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I'm fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world
Everyone agrees with this
Which is why Biden should immediately pivot on this issue and save the United States from fascism
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he's out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these "leaders" are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I'll like it even less than I did last time, though.
Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)
Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician's genocidal desire? If it's a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?
Me more than anyone. To this day I can't create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I'd applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
We've been down this road so many times and it's always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.
Oh, I'm talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump's term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.
We're more popular in most of those countries than most European countries are - a lot of bad blood in colonialism there.
Western Euro countries approval of the US tend to vary wildly according to recent events, while Eastern Europe outside of the Russian sphere tends to approve highly of the US despite a significant gap on social issues.
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it's legitimate is because it's true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it's far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn't a strategy to keep Trump out, it's denial
Their point is that Israel is committing genocide and Biden is abetting that genocide while also engaging in genocide denial.
Which is political suicide for the Democrats. He has seriously miscalculated this issue and needs to recalibrate immediately. There is no other option.
Why indeed, when you are trying so hard to get Trump elected so he can do SO much worse. Your disingenuous bad faith nonsense isn’t lost on many people here.
You certainly are busy responding to my every comment today. Enjoying my comment history?
And
A fact of living in a liberal democrat is that citizens absolutely DO have that right.
And other citizens have the right to call out the bad faith propagandists that aren’t here to criticize the government, but only to criticize ONE government official.
You see, we all are very aware of the silence from the “far left” propagandists that pretend to be here in good faith when it comes to criticism of the right and the factually proven worse treatment Palestine will receive under Trump.
Legitimately have no idea what this message is intended to communicate because it is poorly written.
However, I did not notice I replied to the same commenter more than once. I was only replying to people I thought were exceptionally irrational.
Your comments btw read like ideal versions of what the GOP would promulgate to dissuade voters from supporting Biden. So if you're a shill, then good job; if you aren't, then your communication skills are poor and you should try to be persuasive and likeable - both online and in real life
A right wing shill accusing me of being a shill. That’s rich. And I’m not here to be liked by people like you. Just to call them out for the ridiculous concept that not doing something will bring change- when not once in history has this ever been proven to work.
But keep up with the propaganda- it seems some people still believe you.
Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There's plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they're capable of prosecuting US citizens.
Shhh! People haven't been terminally online about Israel/Palestine for the past several years juy to admit, in this moment, that their own country commits larger atrocities every day. What do you expect them to do, admit that their own country was founded on settler colonialism and that their continued participation amounts to what Zionism is: a belief that the settlements you live on are legitimate and should be protected?
This is such a weird gotcha, because I don't know a single person who denounces the Israel's genocidal behavior who isn't also denouncing America's genocidal behavior. Like, yeah, killing innocent people is bad; let's keep this bandwagon going and overthrow all genocidal governments, please!
America's been around a lot longer than the beginning of the Iraq war. We nearly eradicated the Native Americans to gain their land, we've placed illegitimate governments in Honduras and Guatemala, nearly eradicating the Mayan population for the sake of our own economic exploitation of the area, and so on. And honestly, most people backed the Iraq war specifically because they hated middle eastern people, so I don't think calling it a genocide would be much of a stretch; if the area's population were small enough to easily suppress the way the Mayans were, we'd have probably just focused on that strategy again in order to secure the cheap oil we were after.
My comment was in response to a comment about American colonialism and the genocide that came along with it, which is why I addressed it. Topics often change throughout the course of a conversation, and the same can happen in a comment thread.
and what happened? oh yeah actual leftist rabble roused and protested the Iraq war, whereas centrist Dems were lockstep with Republicans to invade over lies.
Great example, it really shows how little Dems have cared about leftists for decades.
I guess you are right. Maybe I should be in favor of war and genocide then because it's always working.
Thank you kind stranger, I will stop protesting now.
So… knowing that some protests in the past have been pointless is the key to supporting genocide now?
You seem to like going WAY out of your way to maintain ignorance, don’t you? Instead of accepting that your point was dismissed, you opted to throw a hissy fit and cut off your own nose in a bad faith attempt to make another point.
Christianity actually changed some things in world history. Like more than a few.
So a temporary loss by the righteous can eventually lead to a permanent victory. Which was very clearly my point. And is the point of the Bible - and is also the point of the religious history of the West
So… your argument is to compare your incessant whining and selfish refusal to do what is necessarily to protect the lives and rights of others to….. checks notes
…..Christians?
Yeah. That tracks. You can have that argument. That definitely sums up both camps pretty well.
Riiiight. Well that’s new. I’ve never seen anyone “pretend to not understand written language” to get out a conversation before, but here we are moving new ground.
I suppose you’re not going to point out which part you’re having trouble understanding, are you?
"So… your argument is to compare your incessant whining and selfish refusal to do what is necessarily to protect the lives and rights of others to….. checks notes
…..Christians?
Yeah. That tracks. You can have that argument. That definitely sums up both camps pretty well."
I don't know what this means
I know that it's a likely ToS violation for personal attacks and incivility. But aside from that, I don't understand what argument is intended to be conveyed
Ahh… pretending to be the victim of abuse. Such a familiar tactic. However- this isn’t a personal attack unless you are saying that you are someone that incessantly whines and refuses to do what right to protect the lives of others.
I never once said a single thing about you personally.
And I see from your comment history that you do this a lot to others. You seem to play victim to others words, while simultaneously goading them into arguing with you.
I’m going to go ahead and block you from my feed so you can bait me into being banned.
Good luck with… whatever it’s called that you’re doing here.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don't. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn't he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn't identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too... which he isn't doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to "work within the (existing) system", set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don't know. I truly don't know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn't nothing!
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he's the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to "work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords"... We want someone who's going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.
What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like "we deserve better candidates" - okay, yeah, obviously, but we won't get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they aren't "viable"? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.
(And you even ran - damn that's impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these "entitled thinkers", b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)
Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deserves... or whatever?
There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that "Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best." Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.
And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if he's doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are "boring"), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.
Though one thing that won't ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. It's like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards aren't on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say "please" - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.
Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasement... And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physically... But in any way they can.
Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming election... Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but that's basically the same as staying home unfortunately)... If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they'd be figuring out what it takes and doing it... Instead they're just following their already shown to fail bullying strategy... It's really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate masters... Again
The reason Trump is so popular is because he's a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishment... He's his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one too... But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that he's a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protest... Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.
In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).
And I am not even saying that is "wrong" - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about "correctness". e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 don't "quite" cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or let's use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of "what is 1+1?", and the Democrats step in to say that "the answer is +1,000" (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). That's way off... but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c she's not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is "better"? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more "correct", despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.
If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it…
Yup.
Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Yup.
The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just "intern first, then real job", but "intern forever, b/c that's just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improving... literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returned...)". And HRC's response to ALL of that was, in short: "Life is good, let's keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that I'm just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)".
On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it won't fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media won't report them, and I wouldn't understand them myself anyway so... we are back to the "Just trust me bro - I got this! (also I'm totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uh... reasons, but it'll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and you'll see what we have planned later!)"
Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, there's one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like "The Dems needed to..." and "If Dems and Biden really wanted to..." and "Instead they’re just... It’s really irritating to", my question is: now what? So you don't like it - I don't either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that's what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But I've been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.
Sadly the Republican's "grassroots" orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none... Without funding I don't know that there's much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I've moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don't see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they'll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing... What about when they've squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they've been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it's before millions die in the streets.
I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become "part of the solution". There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I don't know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.
People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they don't suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. "Facts" were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.
And now I've moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesn't count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, I've lost all faith in democracy - "we" are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs to... "survive", if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.
Conservatives have "conviction" behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively "easy"...r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.
Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe they'll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready then...?
I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I don't mind - there are far worse things:-D.
Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we aren't all going to make it.
Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the "excess death" statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the "liberal" NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? we'll see I suppose).
Unfortunately the only real convictions the Dems seem to have is "protect the rich at all costs"... They have some social issues stuff quite a ways behind that, but clearly they're willing to let it slide rather than fight (ie roe v Wade)... They would definitely rather lose to Republicans, who at least have that same 'protect the rich' conviction, than lose to progressives who would "eat" the rich instead... Even though they agree with progressives on the social issues
We've been dancing around it but I want to say explicitly: politicians are not "the same" as the people that they represent.
Conservatives for instance vote against and by and large act as if they believe that climate change is not happening, however Republican politicians - at the high end, i.e. federal even if not all the way down to every local area - know that it is happening, and it is merely a farce when they say that it is not. "Climate change is not happening" is their way of saying "well of course it's happening, but we choose to protect ThE eCoNoMy first and foremost".
Note that it is no accident that old retirees subsist nowadays on the tiny trickle from the stock market that keeps them going - so you can't regulate the stock market b/c "won't someone think of the old folks - what will happen to them!?", despite how they may get a fraction of 1% while billion- and now trillionaires take the rest. It's like the rich use the elderly as a necromancer uses zombies - in a manner called "meat shield" in gaming terminology; but it happens irl too, e.g. Hamas hid behind school-children in an identical fashion. Anyway, in return, the elderly vote to keep tHe EcOnoMy first and foremost in their minds, thus sacrificing their children to become slaves, while taking care of themselves first & foremost.
And in like manner, Democrats != liberals, with a few notable exceptions like Bernie Sanders and AOC, who ofc will never be allowed to become President or gain positions of real authority and power over the ones who hold true power.
The principle itself is not even a bad thing necessarily - ideally, leaders should be MORE responsible than the average citizen that they represent, not less. But since we have so many people working from behind the scenes manipulating things unseen, politicians are not our "leaders" these days, not truly, and instead have made themselves useful puppets that dance at the behest of their masters. Btw, this happens in literally every group that has ever existed, not even limited to human social ones, e.g. it happens in single-celled bacteria and even single-molecule proteins called prions such as those that cause mad cow disease, and probably photons (bundles of pure energy that don't even have subatomic particles and thus have zero mass) do it too I dunno, I'm just saying that it's a natural law of the universe, at all scales.
An extremely insightful video that I cannot recommend highly enough is the CGP Grey Rules for Rulers - that channel has excellent other resources too like a fantastic explanation of ranked-choice voting. Ngl, that video messed me up - I used to really want to change things, then I watched it and realize how difficult that task is to make happen. Now I am much less outspoken than I used to be, b/c I have sent myself back to school, while questioning everything that I once believed. We cannot fight the very laws of the UNIVERSE!! Which doesn't mean that liberalism has no chance, but it does significantly narrow the scope of solutions that might actually be viable enough to work.
Which is what gives me pause to lash out with instant hate against Biden's efforts to improve things. Maybe he's worthy of that, or maybe not, but I would need to understand what he's doing first, before I want to judge him. I spent years breaking down Trump's motivations btw, so I get what he's trying to do, but I have not done that for Biden. It's exhausting:-(. I wish there were people I could trust that I could just follow, but who would that be - Bernie Sanders? He is an idealist, and while that works for his seat from Maine, it would not work on the global scale, with him as the Commander in Chief. As Obama said about him, he is a prophet in the wilderness, not a king who can make the hard choices.
Anyway the forces involved are just so incredibly complex - what has worked since American's founding seems unlikely to work in the future, as the implications of globalization and automation settle in. e.g. the likes of Jeff Bezos and the Military-Industrial Complex use the American government in both an offensive capacity to increase their own profits abroad, while simultaneously as an aforementioned meat-shield to hide behind it whenever they feel scared that some other trillionaire such as Putin might come for their wealth. And keep in mind, We The People were okay with that, b/c it helped us too to have things like Google, Amazon, and weapons that we could use to defend ourselves & our allies, and offensively destroy our enemies or threaten them to not attacking in the first place, or regardless of military entirely we could also bully them in economic matters. Just like how people in Florida are okay with their leaders antics b/c it works for them, so too the American people are okay with the antics of our own leaders - or at least we were until about the late 70s. And now, we talk as if we are not okay with them, but we act as if we are, more or less.
So Rules for Rulers - check it out, and I hope that it messes you up as much as it did me, b/c that's how you know it is working:-D. As for where to go forward from here... I don't know, but even so I consider my new position to be a lot better than my previous one where I thought I knew but didn't. To be clear, that is not me even attempting to hint at implying that liberalism is incorrect, but rather me saying that if we can't make it happen in the real world, then of what use is it to be "correct"? Before we can move forward, we need to find a viable path first. Like standing at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, wanting to go westward - it's not impossible, but it is going to be rough going, and we might not all make it, and either way we need to be prepared for whatever lies ahead.
So typically liberal=neo-liberal=establishment Dems... Progressives=Bernie and the squad... Just semantics
I've seen that video before... Love everything he does... I wonder how AI and robots taking over all human labor over the next 20 years will effect this model. I guess it's sort of like discovering a resource that dwarfs the production capabilities of the people. So all the democracies slip into dictatorships? Maybe that's what we're seeing the prelude to?
I tend to avoid the word "progressive", b/c - I kid you not - George W. Bush was one.
Progressivism is a political philosophy and movement that seeks to advance the human condition through social reform – primarily based on purported advancements in social organization, science, and technology.
Like, maybe someone doesn't have to be "good" at it in order to be called one? Also, Biden did one of the largest infrastructure bills that we've seen in modern times - would that make him quality? (perhaps not a "social progressive" but a different kind?) I admit, I am very likely over-thinking this and should just use the word:-P.
But anyway, yeah, HRC was pro-war, pro-big business, the rather extensive list goes on, so a perfect example of a Democrat who was decidedly not progressive. And you get what I am saying underneath it all: what the politicians offer does not always perfectly match the desires of their constituents - e.g. neoliberalism.
Yeah, the likes of Bezos have been harping on replacing their human workforce for years, they actually feel like technology is BEHIND in that aspect, b/c they wish they could ditch the meat-bags ASAP (who do things like die when the temperature rises above a certain threshold for a sustained length of time). So while governments with octogenarians don't even know it is happening, corporations look like they are preparing 3rd-world nations to receive their robot factories. Just like farming today, if all you need is 1-5 humans per huge production location, and especially if you can pay that person in housing & maybe food ("company scrip"), then by ensuring their loyalty in said manner you can maintain absolute control over your profits. Evolution can sometimes be about survival of the most ruthless? Especially when people refuse to work together to stop it.:-(
I guess I don't see how Bush fits that definition, but I guess it doesn't matter, I think we're close enough.
Personally, I wish we could hurry up and replace all human labor with computers and machines. People could still do work, they'll just be free to pursue work that they find satisfying instead of the bullshit work most people are doing now. We will of course have to have an economic revolution and force the rich to share the wealth created by the machines, otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people. I'm a strong proponent of UBI tied to inflation and set at a thriving level by "district"... However we want to define district.
otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people
Which is probably why the revolution would be allowed in the first place. They have their own islands or stay perpetually in the air - they can afford to wait it out.
Yeah...I think they'll push for a faux revolution, designed to cull the herd more than actually change power structures... Our only hope is for people to realize they need to fight the rich and not each other... So I don't have high hopes
Yes... I bet if they'd put up someone who's actually on the left, it would be a different story. Like, I don't love everything about Bernie (because he's not as "left"as I'd like), but I would have gladly voted for him against Trump. Millions of young people would have gotten excited to go vote for him too.
Every election the Dems fight tooth and nail to stop actual progressives from being allowed into the general. They put up their centrists instead. So of course they aren't "left" enough.
Let's just get this clear: Most everyone "defending" genocide aren't happy what's happening. If the world was perfect and always going the way we wanted, this would never be. We don't vote Biden, even if we celebrate the (all too uncommen) victories. We vote Blue, for hope.
Are they angry cause you're bashing Biden, or is it because they have to keep telling and reminding people how bad it can be and was with the alternative to Biden. They're stuck defending a man they really don't want to, because they know how bad the alternative is.
This election is literally the definition of voting for the lesser evil. Both, unfortunately, will continue genociding. Only one has said they want to be a dictator HERE though.
"Biden should stop supporting genocide" is bashing only if you don't want him to stop.
or is it because they have to keep telling and reminding people how bad it can be and was with the alternative to Biden
This is lemmy. Everyone fucking knows. Can't even gripe about the guy you voted for supporting genocide without someone feeling the need to centrist-splain how genocide is moral because it's their guy supporting it.
They’re stuck defending a man they really don’t want to,
The most unrealistic part of this is a conservative christian actually reading the bible. Unless he is just using it as a prop which is on form with these types.
Pretty sure these morons only read the illustrated bible for kids versions. With only their favorite fairytales and lots of sweet baby Jesus garbage to make them feel special.
Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this site's political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
I'm just curious. Were you old enough to vote in 2016?
Not looking to judge or call you out or anything, I'm just curious because you sound a lot like me when they tried to shove Hilary down our throats. She was shit, and I understand how frustrating it is when the only party that hasn't gone bat shit crazy does whatever the hell it wants because they know there's no possible way they could piss us off enough to vote Republican.
That being said. I didn't vote for Hilary. I went third party because the Head Dems needed to learn that they can't just decide who the nominee will be and then put their finger on the scale during the primary.
Obviously, they did not learn that lesson, and since then the GOP has doubled down on fascism and insanity.
If I could go back, I'd have happily voted for Hilary. If Trump had never won, we'd have a more trustworthy Supreme Court, and clowns like MTG and Boebert wouldn't be acting the fool for attention.
And that's why I ask if you were involved in the 2016 election, because we've already done this, and it bit us in the ass. That's why we aren't trying to talk people out of voting for Biden. If we don't unify behind this chucklefuck, we may never get a chance to elect someone we actually want again.
For the record, Israel can fuck right off with the shit they are doing, but that's a conflict that's been going on my whole life, and expecting Joe Biden, or any one person, to fly in and bring peace to the other side of the world just isn't plausible.
We're on the same side here, but if we're divided on Biden, Trump wins again, and NONE of us want that.
I'm old enough to have voted in the last 4 elections, i remember 2016 plenty. Do you know what I remember about it though? Hillary, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, and all the major news outlets, all the major online publications being shared on all the major social media platforms proudly and confidently parading around poll numbers showing Hillary would blow trump out of the fucking water. I don't remember hardly any of her campaign positions, because at every fucking stop she was mocking and deriding trump and his supporters. She was even mocking her own constituents by deriding Bernie.
She was as surprised as everyone else that the electorate she needed to show up chose not to come out for her, and if you ask literally any non-voter or protest voter from that election, they would tell you the same thing: 'the establishment doesn't give a fuck about my interests'.
I voted for hillary (and i'm embarrassed by it). I don't think voting third party would have changed anything about that outcome. What I wish i had done was spend every goddamn minute of every goddamn day leading up to election day SCREAMING at everyone that would listen to take the concerns of the electorate more seriously. I cannot stress enough how absolutely idiotic it is to be wasting any time shitting on the interests and concerns of the voters in 2024 by chanting "vote for Biden or else". It is the same fucking thing hillary did, and BIDEN WILL LOSE.
If anyone here is even remotely concerned about Biden losing in 2024, they should be running for the mountains and amplifying what voters are actually concerned about, and pray to fucking god Biden has the compassion to listen. If it means personally threatening to withhold your vote in order to make that possibility ring true, then absolutely do it. I don't care if you think that'll make someone apathetic, if any one of us reliable democratic voters is even considering not voting for him, I would bet it on my life that millions of others are already feeling the same thing.
The level of arrogance displayed in the memes here about 'if you don't vote you'll cause a dictatorship' is absolutely staggering (personally calling out @PugJesus here) The only people those memes are for are people who will have their reality shattered when their worst fear comes true after november.
No offense on my guess of your age, I like to make guesses about people based on unrelated things, and usually I just like to know if I was right or not.
Again, I got no beef with you, we agree for the most important parts here, and as is a major issue with the Dem party, nobody can agree on how to make things better.
I think it's interesting that I rebelled against Clinton and wished I hadn't, and now want others to not make that mistake, and you supported the "At least it's not Trump" candidate and feel the same way.
I would really like the DNC to listen to voters before lobbyists, and I don't know if there's a way for them to get that message, but I hope they do. So, I'll meet you in the middle. You keep spreading the message, but just to be safe, I'm still voting Biden.
I'm not sure if you're aware but the third party vote in 2016 slanted more towards voters who typically vote Republican.
Also: unless you lived in a swing state in a swing district your third party vote probably didn't cost Hilary anything in the Electoral College.
And I doubt you were the reason her campaign chose to ignore said swing districts in swing states. Don't feel guilty and don't carry the water of their mistakes.
Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year... Maybe calling them "dipshits" isn't an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit.. Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you're trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasn't even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that haven't even cast a ballot for Biden. And we're already absolutely inundated with "You have to vote for him or you're a traitor to your nation!" hyperbole.
You'd think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become President... six months early?
There's simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasn't been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didn't unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages aren't high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head I'd rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldn't need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but here's a highlight reel:
Enthusiastically support Israel's "invasion" of Gaza
Waste billions on a useless border wall
Deploy the military domestically to "fight crime", "coincidentally" in blue states
Slash federal education spending and let states handle their own education
Repeal background checks, reopen the gun show loophole, roll back federal laws against gun trafficking, and make it easier for kids under 21 to get guns
Undo Title IX trans rights
And he won't stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
For the medium/far future: push for electoral reform like IRV/ranked choice voting at the local/state level (to get people used to it), endorse third-party candidates, run for local office, donate time/money to causes that matter to you.
For the near term, to allow the first bullet point to take root and thrive: Don't let Trump get elected, which means, unfortunately, voting for Biden.
Democrats can't win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is 'Biden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for him'
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say they'd do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. There's no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
I’m a progressive, volunteered for Bernie’s campaigns. I don’t remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you don’t have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where “not voting for the least bad option” equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that that’s the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I haven’t heard is what’s the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Let’s say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing that’s supposed to happen? What’s the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, that's a worse situation)
If you'd like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasn't lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers aren't real and pray that this doesn't sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. That's what I'd do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I can't campaign on "yea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but he's not irredeemable" to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think it's far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate that's complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Biden’s support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt he’s browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I don’t really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. I’m concerned that Biden’s support for Israel will make him lose too. I don’t believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling “plutocracy in democracy clothing” means we won’t be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
Biden retracting his support for Israel, no.
Some people on lemmy getting disenchanted and sitting home, maybe.
The horse race obsessed media running endless stories about Biden losing the left and the youth vote, which while true, act as a flywheel suppressing more voters, absolutely
And I just can’t figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isn’t doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Biden’s unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
If I believe that Biden will lose because of a position he's taken himself, and i believe that nothing I say could sway the people we need to vote in November even if I could make it convincing, what else is there to do but anything to get Biden to reverse course?
The sad thing here is that Biden is able to move on things. He was essentially republican before the 2020 primary! Bernie and Warren had a lot to do with that. You campaigned for Bernie, you already know that!
I think if progressives are loud enough, the people in Biden's circle can break through to him. I'm more optimistic than you are.
We lost the 2016 election because moderates were overconfident and condescending to their constituents; if nothing else I will cut them down, even a little, so they might not repeat that mistake.
We both think his position on Israel is a shit position that imperils his election.
Few questions for you in good faith.
How many voters do you think he loses in the other position. There are a lot of democratic voters that do strongly support Israel and might be put off by him pulling support of denouncing them. They could stay at home or withhold donations also imperiling his chances of winning the election.
What do you mean by “if progressives are loud enough.” What does that loudness look like? In 2020 you had Warren with popular support and Sanders turning out 50k people to rallies, that’s pretty frightening to a candidate and could get them to make concessions to bring them into the fold. The democrats aren’t running a primary (in any meaningful way) so what does “being loud” look like. Is it just posting wherever you can, is it some direct action, a protest, a rally? What about it would be more successful than the student led protests we see on college campuses that don’t seem to be doing much to sway Biden or his inner circle?
What do you think about the possible negative effects of such action? Are you concerned at all that there is some non-zero number of people that would have voted for Biden but see enough negative content they decide to sit it out unable to stomach voting for him?
Honestly I wish I had your optimism that we could work towards making a substantial change here to the course of events. I find what’s happening reprehensible, monstrous even. I took part in the Iraq war protests, took a bus from Ohio to DC to march in what was at the time one of the largest protests. Got there and was pepper sprayed by Capitol police but stayed in the fight, organized protests in Columbus in support of Medicare for all. I still work in my local community to try to make things better, but I found that “being loud’ even being historically loud didn’t move the needle because the system they taught me in school about how America works and the reality of how America really works are so different. Our representatives spend more time dialing for dollars calling up and begging the donor class for donations than they do legislating.
That’s the perspective I come into this with, almost 30 years of being told to organize, protest, vote. That the pendulum would swing back. Go read some of the comments on any YouTube video covering campus protests, see how much glee the right takes from watching the police crack down on them. What should we do when the tools they tell you will lead to your freedom energize your opponents and leave the people that supposedly represent you unmoved?
You're right that I left a crucial element out of my admittedly simplistic two step process. We should pressure Biden to be better and to stop supporting the genocide in Gaza.
I consider myself to be solidly left, maybe not full-on progressive but supportive of many progressive policies. And I think Biden has been a good president when you consider the context he's been given. I don't have time to write it all out now, but if I did, I'd be glad to argue that Biden had been a good (not great) president. I think the millions who have had their student debt cancelled, bought OTC birth control, got off unemployment and into a job would agree.
Granted, Biden's campaign hasn't done a good job, groceries are still too damned expensive, and he hasn't stopped the genocide in Gaza. But, save a violent nationwide revolution, the 2024 presidential ballot is Biden vs. Trump. And, on the issue of the genocide, Trump has demonstrated he'd be an enthusiastic supporter of Israel, much more than Biden.
I am starting to believe that the OP type of people aren't actually Biden supporters or democrats but paid for Republicans/operatives who have market researched the most effective way to reduce voter turnout. Kind of like how cigarette companies were forced to make anti smoking ads and went with the least effective or most counter-effective campaigns they could go with.
That's because you and @theilverpig have been trained since 2016 to see any dissent as foreign opposition to the point that you can't even see legitimate dissent anymore.
I was talking about the op of this comment thread... Not the original post... Bullying people to vote for Biden is a proven losing strategy. Dems and the shills they pay to troll on social media absolutely have to know this, so why would they continue to do what they know will drive people away and cause then to lose? The theory being, maybe they aren't Dems, maybe they're Rs pretending to be Dems... Personally, having worked closely with establishment Dems in the past, I honestly think they are dumb enough to try the bullying tactic again even though it lost them the election in 2016
#OR MAYBE YES THEY DO, YOU CERTAINLY DONT REPRESENT MY PROGRESSIVE VOTE WITH YOUR ARROGANT ASSUMPTIONS
[the above is just making an important distinction, not really yelling though the screen]
Reality includes nuance, recognition, and rationale.
How many threads and comments are you posting about local, state, and federal politics that are even more important than President?
What Congressional Representatives are you mad at about genocide support?
Who should we be voting for/against in primaries other than just Biden? What state lawmakers are supporting genocide and need to be engaged over it?
Where's the rest of your outrage for the little things that matter more than the optical illusion that is the Presidential race?
Or, alternatively, just recognize that you are now part of a distraction meant to disrupt American politics, and your cognitive dissonance prevents you from acknowledging certain realities, one of which is that your echo chamber is just an echo chamber. We all have to learn that eventually, or we will reap what we sow. The last time we really experienced a 'reap what you sow' in a Presidential election was in 2000 with Bush v. Gore. We got Bush, we got 9/11, then we got Iraq and Afghanistan wars that threw real people and families, in this country AND more so in the countries we invaded, into a murder meat grinder as a way to feed a military complex rather than feeding justice for the 9/11 dead. That is OUR modern legacy that must never be allowed to resurge. I'd argue we got lucky with Trump's first term in terms of a 'reap what you sow' scenario, he was far more of an incompetent greedy clown than a corruption evil genius than expected, but he seems to have come around to leaning in towards a much more focused corrupt evil clown this time around that will coincide with much worse consequences and outcomes for all of us if his circus act succeeds.
Not everyone is on the same page even among progressives, and here, you are seeming like another side of the same Trumpie coin by demanding the litmus test for conservatives Progressives be this sleepy corrupt demonic racist genocide Joe line-in-the-sand narrative that is blaringly, obviously, propagandized as commentary that will be reinforced to divide and dilute voters that recognize the real world danger of Trump and his rhetoric.
If genocide is what you are truly concerned about, wouldn't a better focus of your internet-commenter ire and time be demanding change directly at Netanyahu and Israel's government? They already had plenty of munitions and monetary support from the US for decades of suppression of the Palestinians' self determination. Where were you 5 years ago on a seemingly ongoing genocide of Palestinians? 10 years ago? 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 years ago when Israel was, based on a long history of not even just 'liberalized/progressive' media reports, accused of committing a genocide against Palestinians?
Biden is a half measure, but he's the only half way acceptable option we have based on the system we live in. We aren't going to have a civil war over this, and we can't change the Constitution before November. Yelling at the sky does not at all fix anything. Offer solutions, and if there is one that is a better option than voting for Biden to prevent far more corruption from Trump, let us know now.
But it's just dumb to assume his rock-bottom approval is a mirage. And for its worth, I'd much rather be spending time thinking about literally any other race, but every fucking thread here is filled with self-congratulating affirmation that I can see literally anything but
If genocide is what you are truly concerned about, wouldn’t a better focus of your internet-commenter ire and time be demanding change directly at Netanyahu and Israel’s government?
I don't see any Israeli propogandists here, but if I did, i'd feel about as confident about changing their mind as I do about changing a trump supporter's mind. I happen to know progressives are upset; it's not hard, all I have to do is point to the genocidal shit he's doing. Everybody here agrees he needs to stop and yet laughably every criticism is couched in seven layers of 'but i'm voting for that fucker anyway' as if it's too strong of a threat to let that possibility COOK HIS ASS a little to get him to change, even if it's the obvious implication anyway. You all seem to be in a deep, deep pit of denial about this, and if I do nothing else but toss cold water on you for the next 5 months then i'll be happy.
We're 5 months out, we haven't even held the convention yet. If we get to octoboer and he's still a fucking POS, i'll start couching my screaming with those addition affirmations, too, if it makes you feel better.
But fuck you if you want me to stop screaming for him to do better, and fuck you for pretending to care yourself.
So, 'get in line' with your view, or 'fuck you', is your message.
Progressives, including myself, are upset at Biden, but we're not monolithic, and many of us are even reasonable grownups that don't let our rage dictate how we respond to situations with vitriol and insults, or with demands that everyone else conform to our individuals views or be dismissed. I get it on some level, you're obviously younger, I had the fervor of inexperienced passion with politics in my younger years as well. I actively try not to project my own shortcomings onto others to convince myself I'm right when I feel attacked. You're losing the plot and only seeing red.
Who should we be voting for/against in primaries other than just Biden?
How many threads and comments are you posting about local, state, and federal politics that are even more important than President?
What Congressional Representatives are you mad at about genocide support?
What state lawmakers are supporting genocide and need to be engaged over it?
Where’s the rest of your outrage for the little things that matter more than the optical illusion that is the Presidential race?
Biden is the middle ground Republican-light compromise coward and always has been, none of your screaming is going to make him stop talking from both sides of his mouth. If anything, he's had a few releases that were surprisingly harsher on Israel than some of us ever expected him to.
You are laser focused on the wrong-goddamn shit - looking for instant gratification by trying to make the story of the plight of Palestinians about Biden and a singular American election, when it's about so much more and could have stronger impacts if it was focused on actionable solutions rather than reactions to public statements.
Yeah I know... The Dems probably are dumb enough to try the bullying tactic again, even though they have to know it lost them the election in 2016... Or maybe they have their heads so far up their own asses that they genuinely don't get it... Either way, it's like they're deliberately trying to alienate the very people who they need to show up and vote for them
Yeah, seems right. These people seem like shills trying to discourage people from voting against the Republicans, that really seems to be all there is to it. They make any argument they can to discourage people from participating at all.
The simplest way to "stop Trump" is for Biden to stop supporting Israel's genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israel's genocide and instead it's everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump won't get stopped even while Biden doesn't shift an inch on his position.
It's quite the "curious" take that Biden shouldn't have to stop supporting genocide even to "stop Trump" and instead it's everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to "stop Trump".
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of "the boss is always right and you have to support the boss or else" of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn't support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And "stopping trump" is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don't like the genocide supporters and you shouldn't be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That you're fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"^TM^ shows that you clearly haven't understand my points or haven't actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to "Stop Trump" and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, that's what's very unfair - it's saying that "my will is more important than the will of millions".
That's the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He can't even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this he's actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them don't care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they don't want him as President.
That's not Democracy, it's Petty Dictatorship and it's certainly not "very unfair" to point out when elected representatives are acting like they're dictators.
this is some real crybaby shit. let us know when you're ready to face reality and recognize that the way you think it should be is rarely the way it actually is.
It's also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. We'll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here -- for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c -- that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprising... Then I'm sorry to tell you that you're a terrorist.
People here aren't arguing for you to like Biden; most of us don't either. We're asking for you to live in reality.
Being "very unfair" to expect that the President represents those who elected him by changing his position to match that of those who elected him is not just broken Democracy, it's the full-on acceptance that the President of the United States of America shouldn't even care to represent his voters (otherwise it would not be "very unfair" to demand him to change his position to align with that of his voters), which is the kind of shit from countries like Russia were the vote is pure theatre and citizens have no power.
I mean, it's fair if "in my country the vote is not a real election of a representative of voters" is what you accept as reality, but that's like saying in Russia that "well, Putin will do whatever he wants either way so people most vote for him", which not really a moral argument to push on anybody who is unwilling to endorse by voting that rigged system with a meaningless vote.
Whilst that's a perfectly valid choice for you fully accept that you don't live in an actual Democracy, that doesn't really give you the moral highground to convice others that they too must fully accept it.
What Biden is doing here isn't great, no one is arguing that. If you replaced him with trump right now trump would be orders of magnitude worse. If trump gets back into the white house, our country, lives, and future will be orders of magnitude worse. That's a fact. Our stupid ass first-past-the-post voting system means you have two choices, Biden, or worse-in-every-single-measurement-unless-youre-a-millionaire-and-you-likely-arent Trump. Choose wisely. Your future depends on it. It's really not a hard choice.
Get politically active and push for change, but don't help bat shit insane MAGA put a king into the white house by extending your apathy to voting day. Please.
It's our duty to be the last line of defense to keep a rapist racketeering felony indicted man who believes he is above the law from leading our country again. That is much more important than our quibbles with Biden.
Didn't answer the question. What happens in November/January?
I happen to agree with you, what we have is not an actual democracy. But the two options for change are working within the system, or tearing down the system. Apathy for the system brings no change. The single most misguided idea of your little apathy movement is believing that stamping your feet in frustration is actually DOING anything.
Why should this system of oligarchic control be maintained given the amount of suffering that exists in the United States compared to other Western countries?
The working class has a right to demand a replacement system.
Trump is not that replacement. But neither are the Democrats
True. Such a system shouldn't be maintained, and we have the right to demand better. HOW is opting out of the democratic process going to do that? (Not rhetorical; please answer this)
Whether you like it or not, It WILL be maintained, at least in the near term. Change is slow. But Trump WILL be the replacement if your plan of apathy prevails. It really is that simple.
I've voted in every single election since turning 18 and have always voted Dem. So have many of my friends and family.
And yet here we are.
People don't believe in our system because our system has produced terrible results. Especially when compared to countries that have produced consistently higher standards of living in our lifetimes like Norway or Denmark. Or even Germany.
What happens in November/January is that America will elect as President either a confirmed Sociopath with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies or a confirmed Narcissist with Fascist and Authoritarian tendencies: America is getting screwed either way, the difference is in the speed of the screwing and whether you're getting smooth talk or dirty talk with the screwing.
Tactically, this battle is lost and has been lost for months now. The vote now only has any power to push for change at a Strategic level: what your vote for or not now can influence, is whether in subsequent elections the Democrat Party will genuinelly fear defeat and hence field a presidential candidate who actually represents his electors or if they feel confident that "our guy is slightly less evil" propaganda always works to secure their Left flank (if it works even with a Democrat candidate who is openly and activelly a supporter of a far-right ideology committing Genocide, they are bound to conclude it always works) in which case they will move even more to the Right and field an almost-Trump candidate.
Keep voting for lesser evil no matter what and the Democrat Party will keep giving you increasingly evil options.
We ALREADY TRIED this tactic when we got lazy and apathetic about Hillary, and that's what gave us Trump the first time around. If we had showed up like we meant it in the primaries, we could have had Bernie.
When we sit on our hands, the wolves lunge for our throats. It will take decades to undo the pillaging of another Trump presidency. Good luck surviving to the next election (assuming Trump permits one) if you're gay, brown, happen to become pregnant, etc.
Actually the equivalent to that would be to, this time around, to not attend the primaries again, rather than to refrain from voting Biden.
You might have noticed that you didn't even got any primaries and the DNC just decided that the left(ish) faction of the Democrats should not get a choice and will just have to vote for the slightly less far-right supporter of ultra-racist fascists commiting Genocide so as to stop the slightly more far-right supporter of ultra-racist fascists commiting Genocide.
Lefties didn't sit on their hands: the election was already stollen from them months ago and the only option they have now is to either "go along with it" or "punish".
Game Theory indicates in this kind of setup were one side decides how to divide the cake and the other side can either accept (i.e "going along with it" and getting what little the other side allocated for you whils they get the big bulk they allocated for themselves) or reject (i.e. "punish", since reject means they both lose), "punish" is the only option that can convince the other side to act differently in the next round and "going along with it" is guaranteed to make them act in the exact same way or worse in subsequent rounds.
You're not just voting for the President in this election, you're also voting for how the DNC will behave in the next round and hence what options you will have in the next Presidential Election.
Imagine what happens if millions of people choose not to turn out for the second least popular president in a lifetime? Why are you pretending that's our choice?
Biden can only loose about 3% of his electorate, assuming exactly the same turnout as 2020 and generalizing to the general vote count (electoral vote is much worse). How many people do you think he's lost by supporting the most public and brazen genocide of our lifetime?
You're expecting all 80million people to all agree to the same comprimise you're proposing, and we're trying to tell you that's not gonna happen
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. It's not democracy at all. It's a sham like usual.
Most sane thing I've read in a while. Hard to make progress starting out from even worse situation. Plus people are dumb. The genocide is terrible, but geopolitics are not as simple as just swinging the nuts around.
These are just accelerationists who already hate 'the west'.
It doesn't matter what the occurrences around the world are, or who is at bat. They will always find something to blast the Internet with during election year in hopes to push the worst candidate up in the polls.
It's obvious and hella funny considering their mental gymnastics.
Lemmy as a platform was designed for this exact purpose; spread misinformation and cloud actual conversations with image macros of pigs shitting on its own balls and shitposts.
Well it's the other way round... Posts shaming people who threaten to not vote pop up every other day. If the shamers could hold their guns till say October, while the rest of us trynto pressure policymakers to, y'know, stop an ongoing genocide
ITT: you're a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.
There's a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. "Don't criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people" is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I've ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They're sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it's happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that's convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I'm never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it's exactly what he wanted
Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn't true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece
And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, "Don't criticize support for genocide". That wasn't the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it's pretty much never a message of "please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win."
If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote "uncommitted." Go to a protest. Tell Biden he'll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.
I think the thing you're hearing is more "I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let's talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that's 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes." I don't see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don't think it's at all the same as "please stop criticizing Biden that's not allowed" or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as "Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn't do that" or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.
I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn't about it.
I've been on the receiving end of names such as "Genocide Lover" and man is that just exactly what I wish my Dad who went to get cigarettes and never came back would have called me before he left. I agree with you. People for some damned reason seem to be stuck.
The Genocide sucks balls.
Trump sucks balls.
Trump + Power = Genocide Ball Sucking on a whole new level
Biden sucks a bit less balls, though would suck far less if he stepped up and actually condemned the Genocide properly. Currently, Biden's big balls are on fire.
Like, none of this situation is good. Most of it is malicious and evil on too many levels, and faaaar more complicated than the majority of us realize. At the end of the day we do have three significant immediate problems:
Ukraine and Putin
Gaza and the Genocide
Trump and the GOP
We CAN focus on all of these and it doesn't have to be to the exclusion, or support/lack-thereof, of the others. Problem is, every time you say "Shit's bad and this Genocide is evil, vote Biden for the love of God." Someone comes screaming in with a, "BIDEN?! YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!" and you can't get a sideways word in.
I think a lot of it is this weird parasocial thing where it's like you have to "support" a politician to vote for them. With very rare exceptions I don't "support" any US politician, like I'm friends with them. I just want to get as good an outcome as I can for me and the other people in the world, and I think that'll come from a combination of choosing better outcomes within the system that's presented, and working outside the system to try to change it to introduce as much actual democracy into it in the long run as is possible.
Yours is probably the correct take, or near enough. The U.S., on a sociocultural level, tends to take sides. It's nurtured into us. Sports is arguably the biggest reason, though throw in the news, social commentary, and a bit of high divorce rates, amongst other reasons, and you'll have yourself a cake split down some middle. While far more complicated than this simple explanation, the reality is we are divided. This division makes it really difficult to want to agree with someone who doesn't take your exact stance. Whatever reason justifies such firm footing on shaky ground is further falsely reinforced by those who exist just to rabble-rouse, 2024 Digital Digger Edition; "Our Words Harm".
It's become difficult to look at comments stuck in the social node of Biden=Bad or Bust in good faith, because they often don't discuss and instead tend to yell.
Which really is sad, because we do need to come together.
I personally think the alternative perspective is a weird one, where politicians and policies are monolithic and unmovable, and challenging them necessarily means damaging the entire system. I was always taught that the strength of democracy was its enabling of negotiation, but you're suggesting that there's no negotiation to be had at all.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it's actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn't happened yet.
It's absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you'd feel better if that didn't make you guilty of 'supporting' genocide, i think it's kind of self-evident.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it's actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn't happened yet.
I talked about this - withholding your vote to put pressure on Biden and communicating to him effectively that that's what you're doing makes perfect sense to me. I linked to the Ralph Nader article where he talks about doing that.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he's currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don't think that's the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I'm just saying how I look at the election. Unless Biden had some sort of mental break that made him start acting worse than Trump in terms of what he'll do with power, I'm planning on voting for him. If I thought lying about that would create a positive impact in some way, then yeah, maybe I might. IDK. Maybe not. I definitely wouldn't be as vocal about how ok a job he's doing, yeah.
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn't caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn't make a ton of sense to me, though. Why is the genocide in Gaza a red line but preventing a genocide in Ukraine, or saving a million American lives from the next pandemic, or mitigating climate change (to whatever extent we even still can) moving the needle away from billions of lost lives in the not-too-distant future, why aren't those red lines?
It's absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you'd feel better if that didn't make you guilty of 'supporting' genocide, i think it's kind of self-evident.
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you're doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better. I think I linked somewhere to a comment from someone who claimed to be Palestinian American who actually specifically asked Americans not to do this (use his dead relatives as justification for their political stance which was going to endanger him much more along with many of his still living relatives). It's on bestof if you didn't see it.
There are lots of Palestinian Americans calling on people to Abandon Biden. One token Palestinian American on Lemmy who disagrees isn't particularly persuasive.
“If it came down to Trump and Joe Biden, I will vote for Trump. Because it doesn’t get worse than Joe Biden,” a man named Salah told me. His friend, Amad, added, “Biden was supposed to be the peacemaker. The comfort-maker. Instead, he became accessory to the biggest genocide in modern history.”
...
“Imagine thinking it’s a good argument to say to a community that has lost 30,000 people, ‘Watch out for the guy that’s going to ban you.’ You’re really asking me whether I’m going to take a ban or a genocide? I’ll take a ban,” Zahr told me.
“I mean, we’ve literally seen our families and our people being thrown into mass graves. Babies blown to bits. It’s not some far-off thing to us,” he said. “It’s been a struggle to declare our own humanity while mourning for our people being massacred.”
...
The truth is Ahmed was one of the only Arabs I could find in Dearborn who openly admitted they actually planned to vote for Biden in November.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he's currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don't think that's the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I don't think you realize how far reaching popular opinion can spread through social media. I don't think Biden is reading, either, but if the sentiment that he'll lose was more widespread, then I think that would absolutely put pressure on him. I also think the complacent stance can reach quite far, which is why it's frustrating seeing people like pugjesus so militant about reinforcing it and why I think it's frustrating to you to see me and others agitating action. (It wouldn't make sense for you to be worried about bad actors otherwise)
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn't caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn't make a ton of sense to me, though
I'll tell you what I read into this: American imperialist state action is so ingrained in the democratic party that it is inconceivable to you that they'd let it go, even in the face of a literal fascist taking control. And I think the people you're talking to here, who've felt for a long time that America has been on the wrong side of geopolitical struggle for 80 years, find that to be the most damning part of your position.
It's inconceivable to wish fascism onto the people of America and the world, but that the democratic party can sooner accept it than consider pulling back the American global apparatus is... well, I guess it makes it hard to root for them, doesn't it?
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you're doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better
I think what you mean is that it's convenient, but I obviously don't see it that way. I think it would absolutely help the Palestinians for the US to stop obstructing justice against Israeli leaders, and I don't accept the premise that their reality would somehow be worse than it already is if trump was egging Israel on. The UN is already poised to react against Israel, if they cross a lot more lines they'd risk expulsion (along with us). Who knows, but it's not just about Palestinians, the US has abused its influence across the globe and setting the record straight about what the electorate will tolerate would undoubtedly help more countries down the line, if Biden accepts the critique.
Is it a straw man, though? Just look at the post we're in. OP, at face value, wants the democrats to win but thinks they're bungling the odds by supporting genocide. There's already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters, as well as at least one commenter I've seen so far suggesting that we can't be critical about this now because the election is too important.
There's already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump's chances in the election.
The strawman I was specifically responding to was that commenter "you're a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide". I've called it a genocide many many times; never got called a Trump supporter. I've said Biden is enabling it, said all the Palestinians will be dead by the time he works his way around to real consequences for Netanyahu at this rate, compared the Biden State Department to the Nazis, lots of stuff. I said we should contact our representatives and left some links (not that it did a fuckin thing.) Linked to a Ralph Nader interview where he talked about how to demand concessions in exchange for your vote, to put pressure on elected officials like Biden, particularly as it applies to this genocide. Never got called a Trump supporter.
You know what I didn't do? Get all emotional about how I really don't want to vote for Biden now, and suggest a particular framing for the issue that will help Trump, but won't help the Palestinians. I suspect that if I started doing that, and did it consistently every day from a variety of different viewpoints and combined it with a bunch of other criticism of Biden that wasn't true, then people might suspect I was a Trump supporter. But I don't do that. Why? Because I'm not a Trump supporter.
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
I've seen so many tinfoil hat comments from you at this point that I'm sure you must be feeling lonely.
I'm not rooting for a trump presidency. I'm rooting for Biden to stop a genocide, and I believe 1000% Biden will lose on this issue alone if he doesn't address it.
Will dropping his support for Isreal really get him voters? I'm not sure we can say that. He will loose support from zionists and believe it or not they are the ones that put him in office the first time. We knew back then.
The best and really only thing would to be stop the concerted effort to supress voter turn out. Then again the bad actors aren't going to stop and the rubes will follow them into the pits of hell. So pretty much, fucked every which way. Enjoy your moral highground while we are all under a mountain of shit.
But also why shouldn't it? It's a contemptible thing for him to do (like at least don't be public about it, that way voters can safely ignore it)
The best and really only thing would to be stop the concerted effort to supress voter turn out.
I could not disagree more, his approval is already the second lowest in modern history. I don't know about you but I don't know how to campaign around 'yea, he's supporting a genocide, BUT'. nor would I fucking want to! How much shit should I be expected to have to eat just so I can get voters to ignore possibly the most publicly grotesque international policy i've ever seen?
We tried ignoring voters in 2016. Sure let's try that again, see if it works this time
Listen, the dems aren't anyone's friends. Just know this problem doesn't solve itself. You want to be on a path to a better society, yes let it all fall but accept it's not a humanitarian choice. You want to be on a path to incremental change, keep voting but accept that change won't happen in your lifetime. You want to be on a path to autocratic rule, vote republican.
I'll do what I think is best with my vote, but I won't be giving democrats any fucking quarter in my home.
(Referring to the Malcom quote in your username, mods can remove this comment if you want but this is clearly metaphorical) They won't know until I pull the trigger if i'm loaded with blanks or bullets, but they'll be looking down the barrel of my gun either way.
I dont give a shit how you vote but if you kept one other person from voting, you ought to be ashamed. When the ballots are counted they are thrown in the trash. It's what happens after, that matters.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I'm never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it's exactly what he wanted
For the record: this is a strawman. You know that saying about Republicans always accusing others of the things they're guilty of themselves? I would suggest not following the Republican playbook.
I mean, I exaggerated for humor, but people did absolutely say:
Biden ruined the economy
Biden fucked up on climate change
Biden betrayed us by not decriminalizing marijuana after he said he would
"Separating families at the border" got worse under Biden
Trump's Covid policy was amenable to people steering him the right way whereas Biden cancelled a bunch of the safety things we needed
Biden is the one doing the genocide
Aside from the genocide, the last few were so laughable that it's easy to conclude I just made them up as a pure strawman, but yes I absolutely had people tell me the un-exaggerated version of them.
Would it be better if I spelled out exactly what were the literal things people told to me instead? Yeah maybe I shouldn't "joke" in this way if I'm gonna be saying other people are using a strawman.
Migrants who cross the border illegally wait under open skies or sometimes in tents or structures made of tree branches while short on food and water. When the number of migrants was particularly high last year, they waited for several days for Border Patrol agents to arrest and process them.
Gee said there was “significant evidence” that Customs and Border Protection, of which Border Patrol is a part, has physical control over minors at the outdoor locations. For example, CBP vehicles occasionally transport or drop off migrants to the camps and for a time, gave out wristbands to organize migrants by when they had arrived.
“This is a tremendous victory for children at open air detention sites, but it remains a tragedy that a court had to direct the government to do what basic human decency and the law clearly require,” Neha Desai, senior director of immigration at the National Center for Youth Law, said in a statement. “We expect CBP to comply with the court’s order swiftly, and we remain committed to holding CBP accountable for meeting the most rudimentary needs of children in their legal custody, including food, shelter, and basic medical care.”
There's a massive number of people coming in, a big increase, and the Republicans have been blocking increases in funding for the US law enforcement agencies that deal with them (which, the left gives him grief for because increasing funding for ICE means he's a monster), and increases in the number of judges so there's not this huge backlog. So yes, there's a huge number of people and not enough US resources to properly care for them.
I.e. migrants are being left in limbo in inhumane conditions for long lengths of time. However, Biden's attempted several times to solve that and been specifically prevented. It's hard for me to see that as something which he is deliberately doing on purpose.
I addressed the thing that you said, which was perfectly fair although I feel there's a reasonable reason for that situation which isn't Biden's fault. The thing the other person said to me wasn't that, though; it was specifically that Biden had made family separation worse, which is absurd.
So yes, there's a huge number of people and not enough US resources to properly care for them.
And yet I'm sure they'll find the money to get it done now that a judge has ordered them to. It's almost like Biden is actually hostile to asylum seekers.
WASHINGTON — Senate Democrats plan to force a vote Thursday on the bipartisan border security package that Republicans blockedthis year, an attempt to flip the script on immigration politics, a major vulnerability for President Joe Biden.
The legislation, negotiated by Republican and Democratic senators, is designed to reduce border crossings, raise the bar for migrants to qualify for asylum and quickly turn away those who fail to meet it. It empowers the president to shut down the border if certain triggers are met. If it becomes law, it would be the most sweeping set of migration restrictions in decades. Biden has endorsed the bill.
The Republicans are calling for more and more cruelty (e.g. raising the bar for aslyum). Biden is trying to alleviate the exact conditions you're describing, in addition to compromising with them some of the cruelty you're asking for, and you're giving him shit for it.
What in your world should he do? Magic a bill into existence that will fix the conditions you're talking about, without getting it through congress or needing the support of the Republicans?
Why are you saying that weakening his position against the Republicans until things get better is the way for you to solve that problem? Are you happy with the babies waiting outside in the hot sun for months and months until your plan bears fruit, should he withdraw the current bill and go back to the drawing board and them just wait outside until your plan comes through?
Why is Biden always infantilized by his apologists? As if he was completely impotent. He is the president of the United States. In our system, that gives him extraordinary power. He can go to all out war with any country on Earth for 60 days before getting any kind of permission from Congress. If the presidency is such a weak office, why are you so worked up about the prospect of Trump being president? Apparently he'll need permission from Congress before he adjusts his tie.
Biden does not need an act of congress to not treat asylum-seekers like shit. That is a deliberate choice of his administration. Just like it was a deliberate choice to split up arms shipments to Israel into 100 seperate lots so he didn't have to report them to Congress.
Cites to the statutes for detention on who and how long, as well as the 2018 Supreme Court decision I referred to, authorizing indefinite detention.
The horrid conditions are factors of other statutes related to budgets and sovereign immunity. I'm sure I can point you to some of the civil lawsuits about conditions so you can trace back the Republican policy of cruelty as it permeated immigration law.
Sure, and other people also had very different criticisms of him than your list that aren't as easy to dismiss. The strawman is you cherry-picking these to argue against in order to demonstrate some blanket point about people who don't want to vote for Biden, when only one of these is the actual point of the conversation (and not in the hyperbolized way you presented it).
So yeah, I would 100% suggest not committing a logical fallacy while you're criticizing others for committing that logical fallacy.
Every additional issue Biden ignores he looses a portion of his base's enthusiasm. Sure, some of these people would never vote for Biden for a bunch of reasons, but everyone has a limit to what they're willing to concede on, and I have to say that supporting a genocidal project is a pretty big one.
It would be irresponsible if we weren't sounding the alarms that he's strayed too far away from his winning coalition. That's not me being principled (even though it is), that's me being pragmatic.
Everyone else who's rallying a couple hundred users on lemmy to ignore that issue is covering their eyes to the oncoming train.
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell
As someone who frequents worldnews from lemmy.world, a sizable amount of IDF apologists who do actually defend genocide show up every week, although they consistently get banned.
There's also a bunch of wackos on Hexbear and Lemmygrad who will sneer with joy at the idea of Ukrainians getting displaced to never be able to return, although you have to dig in to find them.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn't mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don't support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn't work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you've been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don't believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don't shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn't do this his own; he did this to get elected because that's what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
Ah yes, the evidence of that being [checks notes] Hillary, a notoriously unpopular and uncharismatic politician, narrowly losing due to the electoral college.
I guess people in 2020 were just REALLY fired up about Biden, huh?
She didn't lose narrowly because of the electoral college.
She lost massively because even knowing the rules of the election didn't campaign at all in the Midwest swing States while receiving increasingly alarmed warnings from the local DNC members in those States.
Your response is like a loser going 'I wouldn't have lost if it wasn't for the rules' when everyone knew the rules in advance.
You can argue for getting rid of the electoral college and if be right there with you. But you don't get to pretend it's not a thing when trying to win before you get rid of it.
It often seems like Democrats have nothing but contempt for their voters. Its not clear to me that they care. Its only a very very few number of Democrats who are actually responsive to their voters.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/shaming voters doesn’t work.
You forgot to add gaslighting.
or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
The problem is that there is absolutely no way of "forcing" the (so-called) "Democratic" party on this through "formal" means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won't care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years' time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.
You're being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn't be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.
Nobody thinks a little genocide is okay. Nobody is saying that at all. But it's not a choice between a little genocide and no genocide. It's a difference between a little genocide and a LOT of genocide. When Trump gives his blessing to glassing Gaza with a nuke, will you tell the remnants of the civilians that are left that it's fine because the Democrats will understand now that they should've been harder on Israel?
What is actually more important? Doing what's best for the Palestinians from the options that actually exist, or punishing Democrats?
I'm not any happier than you are about the choices that we have, but wishful thinking doesn't give us a third path. This isn't a movie. To get a third option you'd have to convince at the very least a plurality of the population of the US to vote for another candidate that is gung-ho behind forcing Israel to stop (a proposition that isn't guaranteed even if the US cuts off all support today, by the way). That's a tall order, especially with how well it's going convincing 100 or so people on a Lemmy thread.
I mean, for me it's hyperbole, but whether it's a literal nuke or a completely unrestrained Israeli army outfitted with unlimited US weapons, the outcome for Palestinian refugees in Gaza isn't much different.
PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it's pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world's liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.
When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn't agree with Marx's Dialectical Materialism.
They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.
No leftist is pure enough, no liberal impure enough.
It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.
I'm horrified by what's going on in Gaza. It's an atrocity that deserves maximum attention and intervention above pretty much any issue.
Biden is absolutely shitting the bed on this. But Trump isn't gonna clean the sheets.
It's not that genocide is a tertiary issue. It's that both candidates will be complicit in the genocide, so it literally isn't a factor when looking at the candidates.
As someone who voted 3rd party in 2016, I very much regret it. It was a wasted vote and helped Trump get in office. The very same thing can happen again. Don't get me wrong, I hate that Biden is the candidate. I hated it in 2020 as well. The Democratic party is a joke when it comes to putting up candidates. Until we aren't a two party system, we have to vote for the lesser of two evils with a plausible chance of winning. If not and Trump wins again, we will only move backwards again. It felt like we took two steps backwards and a half step forward.
How we can generate change is by starting at the local level. Ranked choice voting has already begun at many local level elections. We need to campaign for this and for candidates that can make that happen.
Do not fall for the idea that changing to some other method of voting will fix anything.
Plenty of European nations have all manner of goofy voting systems and parliamentary governments and they’re all still getting fascist parties and coalitions.
Even if we thanos-snapped ourselves into star or ranked choice or some other cheese eating surrender monkey voting style we’d still actually have to be not okay with our government sending 2000lb guided bombs to be dropped on hospitals.
That starts with not voting for Biden because a vote can only ever be seen as a show of support. There is no way to mark the little bubble that says “I’m only doing this to keep trump out of office” or the one labeled “wish it was anyone else”.
You can only show support with a vote and I urge you not to show support for Biden.
You should feel proud of your third party vote in 2016, I sure do. You can say a lot of bad things about trump, but he never laughed about having a nations leader sodomized to death with a knife on daytime tv.
I agree that there's likely no 'perfect' system of government. Mostly because power corrupts most. But clearly the two party system is extremely dangerous so I still want a change to another method. Yes, ranked choice voting isn't perfect but not trying to change/improve is giving up.
I do want to ask, it seems like you are fine with another Trump term. Do you not think fascism growth would be greater under his presidency? Do you think he won't support the Israel government or worse, provide even more to them?
Our system of government forms a feedback loop with our social system. We can certainly change how we vote but without changing both the government and social system, modifications to our election process only change the interlink between the two. It’s clear from other extant nations dealing with fascist movements that a different interlink doesn’t fundamentally alter how both the government and social systems respond to material conditions.
It’s not giving up to recognize that a new transmission won’t fix a blown engine and stripped differential.
We might need a new transmission too, but it ain’t gettin us to pismo beach unless the rest is straightened out.
I’m not “fine” with another trump term, and I’m not “fine” with Bidens term or another one.
We are getting fascism. We have, right this very moment, got fascism.
We cannot fight fascism with gentler fascism or inclusive fascism or fascism with a welfare state, we can fight it with socialism, anarchism or communism.
To step away from the polemic for a little bit it’s interesting that you said we shouldn’t vote third party but instead should try to change the voting system. Here I am just asking people to do the easiest thing ever, mark a different box on a piece of paper, and the response is “no, before you do that simple, easy to accomplish thing you have to fundamentally alter how we choose officials!”
I don’t bring it up to make fun of you, because several other people have said that to me, but to ask what motivates that? I mean, do you think the only acceptable outcome for a political party is victory?
First I want to say I appreciate your time and your responses. I appreciate having an actual conversation on the matter because I truly am interested in your thoughts and what you think the best approach may be.
Trust me, I don't just want to change how we vote, I think that many changes need to be made to our government. My biggest question is how do you think we can make that happen? My opinion (just an opinion) is that the people have a much better chance with making changes through local elections and that the democratic party is more likely (at least at the moment) to put us in the right direction. Yeah, it's not going to fast or easy.
I consider myself independent. I always tried to vote for the best candidate no matter the party. Then after 2016, I realized that overall the GOP was toxic for the country. I already didn't like the Democratic party leadership but figured that while they suck, it's much more dangerous for Trump/the GOP to be in charge again.
Again, I appreciate your time and if you can, please share what you think may be the best option forward. I know you mentioned voting 3rd party but what else do you think people should do?
i am of the opinion that the only real way to change both our system of government and society is revolution and that there is no path to revolution in the imperial core currently. because the core is where the bourgeois state apparatus is strongest, there's no way to successfully defeat it's combined political, social, media and coercive force.
I believe that what we can do is build parallel structures of support and governance so that as the state eats itself we aren't left out in the cold.
i'm not posting in these threads to convince people of that though, most people are like yourself and believe that the state can be reformed to serve them. rather than get everybody to start reading old books and studying state action against workers so that they'll come to see things my way, it makes more sense for me to build up the elements of reformist tendencies that overlap with my own concerns.
one place my ideas can overlap with reformers' is that as the state enters managed decline we can influence which parts of the state apparatus get cut off.
it would be much easier to create parallel support structures of support when workers have more agency, so i support the growth of parties that are internationalist and worker focused.
with this outlook, there is no "harm reduction" element to voting for the nicer sounding of the two major parties because neither can be pushed left (see the last uhh 40+ years for evidence that the democrats can't be pushed left) and both are committed to the maintenance of structures that presently undergird state power.
they'd both feed us into a wood chipper if it meant preserving the amazons and grummans of the world.
now before i get accused of coming in here trying to co-opt good legitimate grassroots browbeaten and bullied biden supporters, i'm also of the opinion that a person who genuinely believes in reform would be better served by voting for a third party unless their demands are met.
consider: as i've said many times, votes are support. parties use them to gauge how well their platforms and actions have been received and there is no way to lodge a vote with a caveat or a citation or a star beside it. all they will see is support.
a vote for biden is absolutely a vote for genocide. it cannot be anything else.
for reformers, if that's unacceptable then they gotta at the very least do the easiest thing to show the party they believe can be reformed what their demands are: vote for a party whose platform reflects their own politics.
there is of course, much more a reformer could do to influence the democrats, one could contact their local party representatives, protest at the convention before biden is declared the nominee and any number of actions in addition to those.
but they all have to have the backing of a committed "no" to the genocide come november to have any teeth. and that goes for even circumstances where biden stops sending aid or all the pals die or get forcibly relocated or the icc steps in and puts peacekeepers on the ground for bosnia 2.0.
it is too far and if it stops it was too far.
am i concerned about trump? yes and no. he's not a candidate i'd like to see in power but then again neither is biden. the overwhelming majority of americans survived his first term and he was shown to be a demagouge as opposed to an extremist then, a man more concerned with doing what's popular no matter what versus doing what accomplishes his goals no matter what.
i'm always glad to talk to people about this stuff. be safe out there.
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries. We can try again during the next primary, but if we fuck around during the general, we're going to find out how much worse a second Trump term will be.
Your vote for Biden is only a vote for Biden. It will never be a vote against trump. It will only ever signify support for Biden assistance and denial of a genocide.
The democrats don’t have a crystal ball, they can’t tell that you wish they would run someone else or that you feel forced to vote for their candidate despite his monstrous platform. They will only see support. They will only see what they can get away with.
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries.
Yeah. I remember centrists screaming that uncommitted votes in the primary were votes for Trump. The only thing that pleases a centrist is silence from critics.
Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn't doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it's pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.
There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You're upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.
It's not just a character flaw you have - it appears to be endemic to dem apologists in general.
Since you're one of the first I've seen even acknowledge it, I would love to understand from you what kind of media diet or environment produces this blindness to critique. I suspect it comes from abject terror of conservatives & fascism and a sense of powerlessness to affect real change outside the narrow system given to you by voting, even though voting is also deeply disempowering.
My acknowledged character flaw is my preachiness about my position, particularly in a environment like a lemmy thread where we're all shouting into a void. I do not, however, make apologies for my position.
I am not a dem apologist - I am a utilitarian. I would love to see both Biden and Trump out on their asses and a viable, functioning third party option. But that is one of a number of things that are not realistic right now. I look at the world right now and I don't have the ability to look at the trolley problem we've been given, sit down, and refuse to make a decision because I believe it's going to somehow punish the trolley for daring to give me a choice I don't like. I have to choose whether to pull the lever.
The absolute reality of this election boils down to two logically consistent positions that make sense.
The system is so utterly unsalvageable and without merit that I am willing to make any sacrifice to force a shock to the system that might be big enough to shatter it in the hopes that something better can emerge in the future.
The best we can do is to minimize damage until an opportune time to push for greater change.
Both of these positions are logically consistent, and make total sense. I don't happen to agree with the first one, but if that's your jam? I understand it. But own it. The logically inconsistent position that drives me absolutely crazy is to claim that a Biden loss is somehow consistent with a moral crusade to protect Palestinian refugees. That's absolutely insane and illogical to the point where it is at best based in ignorance and at worst reeks of intellectual dishonesty. If you are motivated primarily by the fate of Palestinians, a Biden victory or loss is not about Biden at all. If you are motivated primarily by number 1, and you want break the eggs to make the omelette, have the moral courage to be honest about it. I, for one, am not in that boat. I don't have the ability to perform the fancy, nonsensical mental gymnastics necessary to sacrifice an entire culture of people on the altar of my ideological purity and then claim with a straight face that I'm somehow doing it for their benefit. I have to do the cold, calculating work of estimating how many people will ACTUALLY die and/or suffer as a result of the decisions I do or do not make, and then make an unpalatable choice that protects the things I find important because that's just how life is. A series of sub-optimal choices that reflect the messy reality we live in.
I expect everyone to do the same, even if the things they find important aren't the same things I do. But when someone claims to value the same things I do and ALSO make decisions that are against those interests by EVERY single sound and reasonable measure? I already dealt with that kind of nonsense when I used to get dragged to church.
As pointed out earlier, this person I responded to in this thread isn't that person, and I do apologize for implying otherwise. But the person I'm talking about here DOES exist. That person is in this thread. And that person needs to hear this.
Okay, I don't really want to debate the merits of the position. I could but I don't think we're too far apart on it. So the character flaw is the preachiness and I misunderstood that's what you meant, but you still have said something very interesting that I want to understand. I really wanted to know about this:
As pointed out earlier, this person I responded to in this thread isn’t that person, and I do apologize for implying otherwise. But the person I’m talking about here DOES exist. That person is in this thread. And that person needs to hear this.
See, this is a mistake that people making pro-dem arguments - whether out of utilitarianism or some misguided sense of allegiance - keep running into. I have seen so many arguments that boil down to (and I'm not saying this is exactly what you did but it's a general pattern):
A: Biden is screwing the pooch for XYZ clearly stated factual reasons.
B: You want Trump to win.
A: No, I think people should probably vote for Biden but he's tanking it for XYZ clearly stated reasons.
B: Fuck you, MAGA/Ivan.
I was asking you about it because you are literally the first person out of dozens of these exchanges that I have ever seen admit to being wrong about this. I think that's honestly admirable, and I was asking because I really want to understand if you have any insight as to where your misunderstanding came from.
If your answer is that it doesn't matter because the person your argument is for is out there somewhere, then I think that's a problem for reasons I can explain if you want to hear them. If you have another explanation I'm interested.
You're right - my posts aren't referring to a SPECIFIC person, but general statements targeted at a casual reader of the thread.
I think this is where most people's overreaction comes from - being so passionate about the desired OUTCOME that they forget to actually be convincing about how to get there. Yes, there are a huge number of us that are not huge fans of many of Biden's decisions, but voting for him anyway because of the limited number of choices we have. But there are clearly people out there who aren't as inclined towards making those subtle distinctions, and it's important that the discourse, as much as possible, makes clear to people that their vote need not be a declaration of undying love. It's okay to say "Biden, but not happy about it." It's really important that those people see the whole view, particularly when there's so much knee-jerk reaction towards both "YOU MUST SUPPORT HIM" and "YOU CAN'T SUPPORT HIM".
That said, while of course it eases conscience to talk about how Biden has problems, helping someone who is gung-ho about supporting him to have doubts has almost no tangible benefits to the external reality we live in from the standpoint of the outcome I desire (I don't post here to be neutral - of course I have a bias), and may actually have a negative impact. Helping someone who is on the fence understand that despite voting being essentially binary, there is a whole spectrum of valid ways to think about it, can lead someone to making a decision that can have a real impact on getting the outcome I see as best, so of course I want to counter the former with the latter.
Or an airplane ticket to several dozen other countries around the world ... checks notes ... several hundred other countries around the world where gun violence in schools is not a big problem.
Yeah, everyone knows America is the only country with anything of value. People are happiest, make the most money, and have the most freedom in America! Anything that's says otherwise is obviously just anti-American propoganda! Literally every other country has no value at all, and anyone who says they like it there is just mistaken because they have to be wrong or all the American truths we all know were lies, and that can't be true!
Wasn't it, though? Can you imagine being her months later, still riding the high of being flown out to receive an award and have a nice dinner with fans of yours, only to find out that you'd been had and the world was laughing at you? That's a supervillain origin story right there.
Interestingly there were some CRTs with flat screens compared to the typical curved ones. Used to have this absolute monster 57 inch widescreen one that weighed like 160 pounds
There's no proof that he's a Nazi. He took some cool pictures and that's it, yet someone is blasting his face all over the internet and accusing him of being a Nazi. Da fuq?
I figured it is his union chapter. His flags are obnoxious though. I missed the confederate flag the first time around. Whatever else he is, he's definitely a traitor sympathizer.
I commented on another reply that I didn't notice the flags on the truck the first time around. We know for sure he's a traitor sympathizer at the minimum.
It really is hard to put Republican assholery on a scale of "worst in our lifetime".
GWB got us in multiple multiple decade long wars.
Mitt Romney or Dick Cheney might have turned the great recession into another great depression.
Trump nearly got us into another full blown recession, got rid of Roe V Wade, tried to overturn Democracy, and nearly got us into a war with Iran.
Trump this time around will try to overturn Democracy again, might bring back the full blown recession we almost had, will let Russia steamroll Ukraine, will support Israel harder than any US president, etc. etc.
But it's fearmongering, and you AREN'T going to scare THESE ubermensch with your dastardly threats of "Literally what the opposition has promised to do"! That's what WEAK people fall for.
Oh, I completely agree. Republicans have consistently gotten worse. At the same time, so has literally every Democrat since Carter. Every Democratic president since Clinton has moved to the right. For example: Obamacare? More like exactly what Reagan proposed to “fix” the insurance industry. And people forget that Biden was the “moderate” to pull that crazy “leftist Obama” back towards the “center”. And now Biden is called a crazy leftist. So now we have 2 right-wing choices. One that thinks capitalism fixes everything, supports genocide because it’s profitable, and says “but we like queer people (as long as they have money and don’t ask for anything)”. The other is a literal fascist. The fact is that either party is good for big business and bad for everyone else.
It's a bit reductionist to boil Obama down to the shit implementation of Obamacare that the GOP killed in the womb. I encourage you to read on it. TL;DR, it was gonna be pretty good, but the GOP threw a fit that it was going to be a win for Dems and tanked it. You're also leaving out the fact that Obama expanded gay rights and got talking about climate change on a policy level. Should both of those things happened sooner? Yes, but that's letting perfect be the enemy of good.
Biden isn't amazing and honestly, I don't care for him much. However, I doubt he letting the genocide in Gaza happen for profits. With the Dem's own party, Israel is a divisive issue and I'm sure he's having to tread carefully so it doesn't shoot in the foot later because politicians are scummy petty people
It goes back before that, when Boothe killed Lincoln and reconstruction failed and we let the south keep southing it got fucked.
Nixon recognized it and used it to get elected, and Reagan got the economy fucking us, and Bush 2 profited from starting wars on surpluses from the previous administration. Then trump wasted Obama’s hard work on the economy with tax cuts and shit handling of a pandemic.
It's fine. He never said it. He has said he thinks its ridiculous that he gets so much money for doing nothing compared to school teachers while paying less taxes.
If you think it's bad now, for you, for Palestinians, for whoever, wait until Trump is in power. He'll commit actual genocide, as in wipe them all out, as he claimed anyways, he'll install himself as a dictator, as he claimed, and I'm not even starting with that Republican 2025 document that would like to make America into Gilead.
So shit up, swallow your pride, vote Biden. as soon as Biden is elected, protest all you want, block roads, whatever, but for now, vote Biden if you want the world to at least survive the next four years semi recognizably.
An actual genocide is happening right now. If biden doesn't feel pressured to stop the genocide at the risk of losing votes in an election year, what makes you think he'll stop it when he's not at any risk of losing the election?
I don't think he'll stop. But from a practical standpoint you're voting between the status quo level of genocide, and an even GREATER level of genocide. Voting for MORE genocide is objectively worse.
Perhaps. But Trump will ALSO interpret victory as a mandate, as he's ALREADY interpreted LOSS as a mandate, and so we're clear on his stance...
"In statements since the war began, Trump has promised, if elected, to cut off all US aid to Palestinians and urged other nations to follow suit if he returns to the Oval Office.
The former president also pledged to bar refugees from Gaza under an expansion of his first-term travel ban on Muslim-majority countries; expel immigrants who sympathize with Hamas; revoke the visas of foreign students deemed “anti-American” or “antisemitic”; and impose “strong ideological screening” to keep out foreign nationals who “want to abolish Israel”."
Completely understood. Not implying you would. Just trying to impress as a matter of general statement how important it is that he NOT win. He will interpret victory as a mandate. I know everyone is sick of hearing it, but it is so important that it bears repeating as much as the discourse can support, because the voices claiming a noble ideological victory from abstention have no such qualms about flooding the conversation wherever they can.
Yeah, but Biden's not the one committing it. Biden is an incidental element of a much larger apparatus and if that apparatus is primarily meant to commit this particular genocide, he's not a particularly effective one.
what makes you think he'll stop it when he's not at any risk of losing the election?
Literally nothing. No one is arguing that borderline unconditional support will make Biden change his mind. Why would you even ask?
On the other hand, if making Biden think he's gonna lose won't sufficiently motivate him, then threatening to not vote is just an ineffective strategy. Your premise undermines the conclusion you seem to be hinting at.
Blaming moderate Biden for far-right Netanyahu's genocide is the fundamental error. Biden doesn't control Israel and Trump would reinforce Netanyahu's brutality and support it, where Biden is trying to leverage concessions and aid for Palestinians working with an irrational and brutal historical ally that keeps actively spiteing us. We should reconsider our relationship with Israel if they spite us in order to commit atrocities, but blaming Biden for it is fundamentally stupid.
The US is directly sending billions in support to israel. In fact, many of our allies in Europe are doing so much more for the Palestinians than the US. You'd have a point if the US weren't the #1 direct supporter of israel. Do you think the US is sending billions of dollars directly to Russia?
Their (Israel) entire army would dissipate into thin air if the US stopped funding them. If the US wanted to, it could end the whole fiasco with a phone call.
It's no secret that the majority of all these "But Biden Bad" posts are written by right-wingers trying to sway voter opinions and shift attention away from Trump's evilness.
It's the same playbook as in the run-up to the 2020 election.
Lol. Yeah, and my barber is a secret CIA agent and the checkout clerk at the grocery was secretly a lizard person, of course I don't have a shred of evidence and there's no evidence that could falsify these beliefs, but it's consistent with my previous encounters with lizardfolk and CIA agents.
Obviously they do, but it's immediately transparent when they do (as it is in that tweet). Conservatives are too stupid to formulate a leftist criticism of Biden, they are incapable of entertaining an idea they don't agree with and their brains have been melted by a never-ending stream of culture war bullshit, and are just as incapable of comprehending politics outside of Democrats vs Republicans as y'all are. Even in the example you used, it's not impersonating a leftist, and it's not saying to stay home or vote third party, it's just doing digital blackface while voicing their own opinions.
Tbh I can only assume you've never met or interacted with a conservative, at least an American one. I can assure you they're completely politically illiterate and that you're vastly overestimating them.
I do appreciate the mental image of a couple of "good ol' boys" getting together for a book club and reading like Simone de Beauvoir in order to better infiltrate the left.
And I'd love to meet these supposed conservatives masquerading as leftists on here, can you point me to one?
Tbh I really enjoy encountering them, it's always very funny to see what they think leftists believe, during the five minutes it takes for them to drop the act and start shouting racial slurs.
Still funny you said you thought I'd never met a conservative. Your opinion of them is as cartoonish as the image of you the smart conservatives sell the dumb ones.
Though tbh you don't make their jobs too difficult- you are kinda cartoonish.
Israel is the west's vehicle for imperialism in the middle east. It was created by the British through imperialist action and the US has been one of the biggest supporters since. So yes, the US has a huge say in what Israel can do because Israel owes its entire existence to the US and the west at large. If Israel feels so mighty and independent, then they're free to return the hundreds of billions in aid that we've given them and to stop receiving the billions we send them every single year and to not have us fight wars for them.
Odds are better for Biden. Slim is better than none.
Get it clear: this isn't a vote about Biden. It's a vote about America and it's a clean binary choice between two bad options; one worse than the other. If you don't choose the far-less-worse imperfect option, you need to be okay with the worse imperfect option if it should emerge victorious.
The odds aren't slim for biden stopping this, it's simply zero. Democrats rely on republicans being worse so that they have an excuse to do nothing. If you have two parties, one that preserves the status quo and the other that makes things worse, then things are only going to get worse because republicans are eventually going to win in our intentionally broken system.
The city is on fire and people are arguing whether we should vote for the shitty fire fighter in the fire chief election when the only other candidate is literally an arsonist
We send billions to israel every year and have only greatly ramped up the support as israel has ramped up the genocide. If the US simply stopped that support, it would go a long way. Following your logic, people get murdered all the time, so we shouldn't do anything about murder, even if we're the ones directly enabling the murderers.
Not really, the two things are not connected the way you think they are.
If anything, Israel cares about western approval enough to at least put up the appearance of propriety, if that approval were to be lost either way I have no doubt they'd just drop all pretense and purge the contested areas at once.
It's abundantly clear that we the west are the last people involved in this who care about Palestinian survival (other than Palestinians obviously), their neighbours care only insofar as it keeps Israel busy and weakened internally, but they do nothing to help them (and with reason, since the attempted coup in Jordan), I don't want to find out what happens when we step aside, do you?
I'm sure israel wants to completely ethnically cleanse Palestine regardless of funding, that has been the mission since Palestine was selected as the target for the zionist movement. However, it's our funding and investments that enables them. Do you honestly think israel is self-sufficient? If they were, then why do we send them billions of dollars every year? That's just the tip of the support iceberg, by the way. We also incentivize companies to invest in israel, like Intel and other tech companies.
We also spend a lot of resources destroying and pacifying countries in the region to ensure israel's continued existence. It's no coincidence that countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc have been invaded and/or regime changed. The top recipient of US foreign aid is israel by far, but Egypt is near the top of the list and it's to keep them pacified since they're a major power in the region and had opposed israel in the past.
The US doesn't care about Palestine's existence at all and is only keeping up appearances as well. Just look at the two-state solution that is always proposed but never followed through. Look at all the negotiations that have taken place where the US obviously sides with israel on unreasonable demands and then blames Palestine for not accepting "deals" that no one would accept.
This is about preserving a system that's at least recoverable in it's current state. If you don't vote for Biden your voting for an authoritarian regime and it's not even an exaggeration. Trump just had a promo video referencing a new Reich in America.
This is the easiest decision American voters have ever had. Go look up what happened when Trump was in power for 4 years and what has happened with Biden for 4 years. We have data on how they both acted in power. That's incredibly rare. Compare them objectively.
Moral high ground about Israel, while correct, is a hill compared to the mountain of evidence that shows what has happened and will continue to happen under trump if he returns to power. State secrets for sale, supreme Court seats, threats to never relinquish power, codified laws hunting down women who seek abortions, laws against trans and gays, j6 insurrection....you're actively supporting that by not standing against trump.
Abstaining from voting for Biden this fall is a vote for Trump in a first past the post system. You will be complicit. You will literally be responsible for violence against minorities having played an active part in helping trump return to power. It's hypocritical to allow that while condemning Biden on Israel.
I get it, I promise. I didn't vote for Hillary or Trump in 2016 and I see now what that ended up doing to our country. I regret it. I won't do it again.
It's impossible to reconcile your disgust for Israeli support from America with the violence you will permit to minorities in America if you don't vote for Biden. You're not wrong for hating it, but you must realize what you're going to do to people with a no vote or a throwaway vote.
Democrats preserve the status quo while republicans push things further to the right. Since our system guarantees that both parties will win at different times, the trajectory is always to the right. I'm voting for democrats down the entire ballot like I do every single election, but it will ultimately not make a meaningful difference. Democrats are using minorities as a shield for their own failings and inaction. If you don't vote for democrats then they claim it's your fault for whatever situation minorities find themselves in, but democrats do the bare minimum they can for minorities when they do get voted in. You're providing a prime example when you use minorities in the US as an excuse to change the subject from genocide in Palestine.
"Identity politics" is a loaded term, but democrats will absolutely play different disadvantaged groups against one another to stop progress. They did it in 2016 when Bernie was talking about the need to help poor people and democrats came out with "but what about poor black people?!" even though democrats don't do shit for poor black people either and as if poor black people aren't included in the group of poor people.
I’m voting for democrats down the entire ballot like I do every single election, but it will ultimately not make a meaningful difference.
The older I get the more I realize that the only way to change anything is to be a massive, endlessly annoying prick. Sure, vote or whatever, but if you don't like the options provided I think the least (literally the least) one can do is to - and this will sound silly - relentlessly meme on centrists to agitate them to do something.
even the ancient romans understood that a solid anonymous dunk posted on a statue can sometimes be the most agitative kind of messaging.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as the saying goes. My only hope as far as voting goes is that democrats get a majority so large that they can't just conveniently flip two senators to continue to do nothing. I feel like democrats purposefully eek out the smallest victories they can so they can pretend to be powerless. It's either that or they're ridiculously incompetent, neither inspire confidence. They're just too good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Regardless, their excuses and lack of results will be even more flagrant if they're given a huge majority.
I suspect that there's a lobbying pool, and as the majority grows the reward for flipping sides gets bigger.
I think it would be bad but a little funny if democrats split their tickets, and they get a supermajority in congress but lose the presidency or vice-versa. They'd get nothing done and shit would get worse, but it'd probably mitigate the worst of the damage and they'd be trying to analyze what went wrong for a decade.
I'm literally pointing out your hypocrisy. I'd rather noone one be suffering from a fanatical authoritarian figure be that netenyahu or Trump, but it isn't a super secret centrist agenda to point out that you will be furthering the suffering of people domestically to make yourself feel good about protesting something that will happen under trump or Biden regardless.
Soapboxing about Democrats doing nothing is demonstrably false, the population has moved farther left quicker than the government, obviously. government is slow. But politics has always trended more progressive than it was in the past. The populace has to drag it kicking and screaming, but it does happen.
I'm probably further left than you, I'm further left than most people. Socialism, Karl Marx, anti capitalism, and French razor blades type stuff.
It doesn't make me centrist to protect lgbtq folks and women at home with my vote. The fact that you're salty that I'm pointing that fact out and you feel for some reason that that isn't a meaningful difference is a you problem. I'm not here making excuses for the status quo to continue, it's just the facts that we need to do that for now during this election to help the most people possible and your ignoring that.
I can vote for Biden and still criticize him and socially be part of a collective voice that is screaming for change. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Your saying minorities have been a pawn for centrists to use, but your ideology is suggesting that it would be better to ignore them and allow violence against them to continue and ramp up under trump. All because other people are suffering, who, tragically, will continue to suffer regardless of the president. That's insane and morally dispicable.
At least your still voting for Biden even if you don't believe anything I'm explaining so thank fuck for that
Because the ballot box is not the only means of civic duty. Contine protests, ramp up activisim, engage in our society more than just voting once every 4 years.
I think you misunderstand; bad faith fuckwits only get one of every four years to spread the disinformation. And this is an election year, I'm loving all the sino/rusky/Iranian players trying so hard to sway the vote.
(We're all laughing at you, you're only seeing upvotes in your echochamber that has hidden down votes. This is the reality of the world and you're hiding from it).
I don't remember ever reading about the jews in Germany slaughtering innocent teenagers at a peace rave using assault rifles, or blowing children up with hand grenades, or raping women, cutting off their breasts, and parading their bodies in the street. Somehow I missed the part about the jews in Nazi Germany continually showering the German populace with rockets.
Biden isn't doing much (not enough anyway) to stop this but AGAIN... There is bad and there is MUCH MUCH FORKING WORSE.
What part of trump do you not understand? Do you want Palestinians eradicated from the world or what? I don't get you people. You want things better for Palestinians, awesome! Me too. Now, how do we get there? "Let's make sure trump gets in office!!!" WTF?
What part of biden can do something about this do you not understand? I'm already doing my part by voting for biden. Now what is biden going to do about genocide? Remember genocide, the thing that's supposed to be unthinkable? Yet here you are defending biden fully supporting it.
If you vote biden, great. Anything better than Trump, at this point.
Having said that... I think biden would like to do more but can't. Why? Politics. Large Jewish population that may not vote for him if he pushes back against Israel and if he loses the vote, again, Trump will be in power and believe you me, Palestinians will wish you voted Biden. There may be a swath of other reasons, but from what I've seen from the guy, I think he'd like to do more but right now can't.
That is my personal feelings on him, he may just as well like what's going on, we don't know for sure.
What I do know for sure is that Palestinians will be wiped out of Trump gets into power, he'll give the Israeli government a carte blanch to go full murder rape genocide on the Palestinians.
No, just realists. Saying a word over and over again doesn't make it true. As someone said earlier, if Hamas released the hostages and turned over their leaders responsible for Oct. 7, the war would be over tomorrow. And they are not killing indiscriminately. Shit happens in war and every misstep by Israel has been magnified and blown up by the media, usually just parroting Hamas's statements.
Look at the casualties; 30,000. Seems like a lot. Until you remember that there are over 2 million Palestinians living in an extremely dense populated area. And this is after 8 months of war. Compare that to practically any other instance of urban warfare and you'll realize that's fucking surgical for how low it is. If it were a genocide, I promise those numbers would be DRASTICALLY higher.
His mission is hype-based businesses that fight unions as hard as possible. Even if goals like affordable space travel and electric vehicles are good goals, he's not going about it the right way. History tells us the way you do things also matters. Building the transcontinental railroad system was a great project that helped unite the USA, but that doesn't justify the way the white worker's grievances were ignored or the mistreatment of Chinese migrant workers.
He has no good goals. It is just a massive grift. Everything he touches will either shut down or turn into a "conventional" company the moment he leaves. It is just hype to drive sales or the next capital raise.
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