YSK: lemmy.ml is managed by tankies, and lead lemmy developer is a tankie

southsamurai , 20 days ago

Dude, this is common fucking knowledge, and nobody cares.

It's one of those things where the very tankies you're talking about made it trivial for anyone not wanting to interact with them, their instance, or anyone in specific can just block whatever. And then there's the instances that defederate from .ml and/or grad, which is a decent amount of them.

They may be assholes (though they tend not to be in interpersonal ways, only in their political views), but they're assholes nobody has to interact with for very long.

You're beating a dead horse with this one

rickyrigatoni , 20 days ago

That horse fucking deserves it though. He knows what he did.

figaro , 20 days ago

Yeah honestly let's make an example out of that horse

MacNCheezus , 20 days ago

I mean, we should probably care at least enough to make sure they're not smuggling in any backdoors that would allow them take over the entire Lemmyverse.

I know it's open source so that's somewhat difficult to accomplish but not impossible (see the recent stealth attack on SSH/OpenSSL). At the very least, it requires people from outside their echo chamber to regularly review commits being made made before admins begin rolling out new updates.

i_ben_fine , 20 days ago

Jesus christ.

MacNCheezus , 20 days ago

I'm not sure if He knows Rust well enough to do that, and having some sort of background in infosec would likely also be helpful.

otp , 20 days ago

Oh come on downvoters, that was funny! Haha

MacNCheezus , 20 days ago

Thank you, I tried.

Tough crowd, eh?

otp , 20 days ago

Well, things have turned around! Haha

MacNCheezus , 20 days ago

Guess it was just a slow burner then

fuckingkangaroos , 20 days ago

You probably got hit by a bunch of lemmy.ml brigade downvotes then real users showed up and upvoted you.

MacNCheezus , 20 days ago

I was only one or two in the red and it's three downvotes total. I wouldn't exactly call that a brigade.

fuckingkangaroos , 19 days ago

Fair enough. Just saw a similar but more extreme thing happen to another comment so I made an assumption.

southsamurai , 20 days ago

That's a valid point, imo.

But there supposedly are people doing just that. Been too long since I ran across it here, but when the last big version change happened, some of the instance running folks looked over the code, and found nothing hinky. I know my asshole cousin has his own instance, and he said he scanned through it a little out of curiosity and "it ain't the prettiest" was the worst he had to say about it. Which, second hand info like that is like toilet paper, but it serves okay for a casual conversation like this.

MacNCheezus , 20 days ago

I would hope so, since it's THEIR hardware it's running on (or in case it's rented, responsible for).

But as long as they don't put anything iffy into the code and leave their political opinions separate from that, they can certainly run their own instance however they please. That's the whole point of Lemmy after all.

randint , 20 days ago (edited 16 days ago)

Dude, this is common fucking knowledge, and nobody cares

The 730 people who upvoted this post do care.

The problem is that lemmy.ml hosts too many popular communities. There are people who want them gone from their feeds but also don't want their Lemmy experience to become empty and boring.

southsamurai , 20 days ago

Votes mean as much as the shit I just took.

nickwitha_k , 19 days ago

No. The shit that you took is more meaningful than fake Internet points.

randint , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Usually I'd agree with this, but on this post, the upvote count is a direct representation of how many people care about this issue (out of the number of users who saw this post). That is meaningful.

southsamurai , 19 days ago

I don't have access to traffic data to make a good argument on this specific post. Without the ability to compare total interactions vs votes, as well as the ratio of up vs down, it's a matter of general principle in my opinion.

It is also my opinion, having moderated off and on since the nineties on various types of forums that pretty much any post is ignored by a majority of users that come across it. Voting really only shows which people are willing to use the effort to hit a button. If a majority of users don't engage, I think that it is indeed a direct representation of how many people care. Again, I can't see those numbers, so it's kind of a moot point to make at all, but I suspect this post is like most posts anywhere.

But I still maintain that votes are meaningless across the board because they're a horrible metric for anything at all, especially when they're the only metric available.

Edit: again, fwiw, in the time it took me to type that up, the number of positive votes went down by 3. And, iirc, at the point where this tangent about the value of votes started, or was over 400, which is still meaningless, but taken in isolation would point to a general trend where there's significant disagreement with whatever it is about the post drawing votes.

randint , 18 days ago

I kind of see your point. The information we have is not sufficient, and we cannot really know how much of the Lemmy userbase cares about this issue.

nickwitha_k , 19 days ago

In my view, upvotes are too easy to manipulate to take them seriously or expect authenticity. And I'm ok with that. I think Reddit and the like showed that karma and the like are not great measures of authentic engagement.

southsamurai , 19 days ago

True, it was a very healthy bm ;)

Jayjader , 19 days ago

The problem is that lemmy.ml hosts too many popular communities. There are people who want them gone from their feeds but also don’t want their Lemmy experience to become empty and boring.

The solution is to build up more attractive alternatives of those communities elsewhere, not endlessly campaign the existing users to just drop them. I understand that awareness of why people want alternatives is important for those alternatives to have a chance at attracting users, and being discovered in the first place. I just have yet to actually see these alternatives receive the care they (imo) require to justify switching to them.

The current fedidb stats, to me, state that 488 people is, colloquially speaking, nobody.
a screenshot of the first page of stats for lemmy on fedidb.org. The collective stats across all servers is 391,326 total users and 45,189 monthly users. The individual servers shown are (in order): lemmy.world, lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, hexbear.net, lemmy.dbzer0.com, feddit.de, lemmygrad.ml, programming.dev, lemmyblahaj.zone, and lemmy.ca. The user and "status" counts approximately follow a pareto distribution. lemmy.world has almost half of the total user count and monthly active user count on its own. The notable outlier is hexbear.net, which has 10% more statuses than lemmy.world made by 10% as many montly active users.

Maybe it's too soon to make such a judgement call, we'll see over the next few days as people get the chance to see this post.

randint , 19 days ago (edited 16 days ago)

The solution is to build up more attractive alternatives of those communities elsewhere, not endlessly campaign the existing users to just drop them.

Agreed. Maybe I should try creating and managing a community some day. (hopefully this didn't come off as sarcastic)

The current fedidb stats, to me, state that 488 people is, colloquially speaking, nobody.

This is a wildly misleading and unfair comparison. Let's take the Trump verdict as an example. The most upvoted post about this had ~2700 upvotes. But that's only 6% of the MAU! Is that "nobody"? Obviously not. 2k upvotes is a huge deal on a rather small community like Lemmy. How often do you see posts with more than 3k upvotes?

~500 upvotes is already a moderately large number of upvotes. You need to compare this number with how many upvotes a post typically gets.

southsamurai , 19 days ago

Fwiw (our disagreement aside), moderating a community anywhere online can be a very rewarding, and very thankless job. And it really can be a thing that feels like a job if the community is active enough.

But I would still recommend at least trying it for a few months to see if whatever subject matter you make it around draws users. That's when you get a real feel for moderation, and have the best chance at helping the overall fediverse work well.

I also think that moderating a big community would change your mind at least partially regarding vote numbers as a measure of anything significant. There's behind the curtain stuff that usually gives a better indication of how a given post/subject is being received by the individual community. It depends on the tools available, and lemmy is a wee bit scant on tools to help moderators gain understanding of the population of their C/; but it's still eye opening.

The biggest thing I think you'd notice in comparing people interacting with a given post is that most votes happen because of a title. People scroll past, see a title, and vote based on that. And that's the ones that bother to vote. A lot of people don't. They'll click a link, maybe open that post and read comments, but just not care enough to do anything else at all. Back on reddit, that was a majority of posts, and I know it was the case on other forums back in the day.

So, yeah, disagreement about the numbers in this case aside, if you're this interested in how a vote using forum works, moderating your own would be a very cool experience on top of diversifying the instance/community balance.

randint , 18 days ago

[...] is that most votes happen because of a title. People scroll past, see a title, and vote based on that.

Wow, now that I think of it, that is indeed how I vote most of the time.

Thanks, I will seriously consider opening a community.

Jayjader , 19 days ago

I didn't necessarily think you were being sarcastic, but I appreciate the clarification.

You're correct, that was a rather shallow comparison for me to make.

I don't think raw upvotes give the full story either. I'd be interested in seeing, for example, from which instances the voters are distributed.

randint , 18 days ago

I'd be interested in seeing, for example, from which instances the voters are distributed.

That would be interesting indeed! I heard that if one hosts their own Lemmy instance, they can see who voted on every post. Don't have that for now though.

fuckingkangaroos , 20 days ago

I have Lemmy.ml blocked and I still see them in other communities all the time. Defederation is the best solution for dealing with an instance that's designed to spread propaganda.

And no this isn't a dead horse, there's are other discussions ongoing about defederating Lemmy.ml

kilgore_trout , 20 days ago

And no this isn't a dead horse, there's are other discussions ongoing about defederating Lemmy.ml

It's a non-problem. No one forces anyone to interact with lemmy.ml

fuckingkangaroos , 19 days ago

Malicious propaganda isn't a non-problem. I'd like a social media platform that doesn't have any governments openly pumping their lies into the conversation.

kilgore_trout , 17 days ago

There is always a bias.

fuckingkangaroos , 17 days ago

There's always murder, but we still try to stop it.

southsamurai , 19 days ago

Your last sentence is contradictory with the meaning of "beating a dead horse" with the usage of the phrase I'm aware of.

To beat a dead horse isn to waste effort at an impossible or pointless goal.

When I used the phrase, it was with the second meaning in mind, but the first partially applies if op wanted anyone to do anything about the situation because the dev team isn't exactly open to some kind of takeover. The most that could realistically happen is that everyone leave lemmy entirely. Except for the tankies, obviously, why would they leave?

Since anyone that has spent enough time on lemmy to be called a regular user has run across the whole issue at least once, that means that if OP was wanting to raise awareness, the post was also pointless in that regard because it's kinda impossible to raise awareness past common knowledge and achieve anything useful.

Now, maybe our usage of the phrase "beating a dead horse" isn't the same. Language is funny like that. Maybe you just disagree that the post has no point, or that the point it does have might achieve something useful. That's cool, no worries, disagreements like that are healthy and fun.

I will say that in the first part of your comment, you actually echoed the point that I made; it is trivial to minimize/block instances in one way or another, including defederation. Defederation is an instance decision, not a personal one. But it is also a personal decision which instance/s we use to interact with the fediverse. There are instances that do not federate with lemmy.ml, and there's a ton that don't with lemmygrad.

So, based on that, I would even argue that, since we have the freedom to choose our instance (with the consent of the host of the instance of course), trying to get an instance that doesn't already defederate from lemmy.ml to do so approaches pointless since all of the major instances have been around for a while now, and have already taken part in that debate. Maybe you could change someone's mind with yet another rehash of the same debate, it does happen. But, again, all the major instances have had this debate multiple times, and the hosts don't seem open to changing just because someone brings it up again.

New instances? Absolutely have to decide if they want to federate with any of the "iffy" instances. And every user has to decide if they'd rather stick with a given instance that doesn't match their preferences regarding federation. But, uh, the instance this was posted on isn't new. The user that posted it isn't exactly new either. So the fact that they haven't already made a choice, but instead decided to beat a dead horse (again, using the "pointless" rather than "impossible" usage of the phrase) seems a bit meh.

Kalcifer , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

I have Lemmy.ml blocked and I still see them in other communities all the time.

If that's the case, then that may be a bug. I advise you to report that.

fuckingkangaroos , 19 days ago

It's standard, unfortunately, I'm not the only one

Kalcifer , 3 days ago

What do you mean by "it's standard"? As in that is the intended functionality? It shouldn't be — the whole point of blocking instances is for the user to be able to, well, block an instance, ie content originating from it no longer shows up.

fuckingkangaroos , 1 day ago

Yeah, the software is set up so that even if you block an instance you still see comments from their accounts on other instances.

redcalcium , 19 days ago

I may not agree with the devs political view, but I think their work developing lemmy is excellent and made me subscribe to monthly donation on opencollective. Lemmy is an open source project where the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used, as evidenced by so many lemmy instances defederating from lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Their political belief won't affect other instance.

Cowbee , 19 days ago

Most instances are federated with Lemmy.ml, it's Hexbear and Grad that .world and a few others have defederated from, among the major instances.

JohnnyEnzyme , 19 days ago

the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used

It seems like they have some strong say when it comes to their own instance.
According to some recent posts, ML admins (and maybe even mods?) have the ability to erase any record of mod actions, for example disappearing critique of the CCP's brutal actions in Tiananmen Square that were posted on ML. That left no record in the public mod logs, and the users were never informed that their contributions had been (completely) deleted.

I'm only a 1yr Lemming myself, but I never saw such a critique aimed at any other instance, hence why I'm skeptical that the devs don't have influence over how the software is used.

Kalcifer , 19 days ago

the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used

According to some recent posts, ML admins (and maybe even mods?) have the ability to erase any record of mod actions, for example disappearing critique of the CCP's brutal actions in Tiananmen Square that were posted on ML. That left no record in the public mod logs, and the users were never informed that their contributions had been (completely) deleted.

That isn't an example of them having a say over how people use the software. That's them using their own property as they wish.

JohnnyEnzyme , 19 days ago

It's more than just that IMO. It's breaking the stated aim of open federation by tampering with comments, posts and mod records, which in turn get propagated or de-propagated to connected instances, right?

Yes, you may say that ML is of course free to screw with their own instance, but 1) one instance (particular a significant one like ML) affects other instances, and 2) they're breaking the spirit of their own software by shamelessly abusing admin powers, in turn helping to normalize that behavior to the Lemmy side of the FV.

What's the point of leaving oppressive, commercial social media only to run in to the same kinds of abuse of power on a supposedly transparent, user-run, P2P social network?

Kalcifer , 3 days ago

It’s breaking the stated aim of open federation by tampering with comments, posts and mod records, which in turn get propagated or de-propagated to connected instances, right?

I'm not convinced that this is in conflict with the aim of federation. The whole point is to give people the power to create their own instances with their own rules instead of having to rely on a single central authority. The network isn't necessarily distributed — it's decentralized. An instance can administrate their content as they see fit. An instance cannot alter the content produced by any other instance. An instance can only manage the content originating from itself.

---

but 1) one instance (particular a significant one like ML) affects other instances

Would you mind being more specific?

---

they’re breaking the spirit of their own software by shamelessly abusing admin powers, in turn helping to normalize that behavior to the Lemmy side of the FV.

Hm, well, it depends on your perspective. The whole point of the Fediverse is to give people the freedom and power to control how they interact with the service. A server has the freedom to associate with the users that they wish in the same way that you have the freedom to consume what you wish. The spirit of the software is to enable people to have this freedom that otherwise wouldn't exist with a large central service. The way I like to look at the Fediverse is where each instance is like a country, and each community is like a regional/state/provincial government within the country, and federation between instances is like cross-border policies between nations.

---

a supposedly transparent [...] social network?

I'm not sure what you mean by "transparent".

---

a supposedly [...] user-run [...] social network?

It is user-run, in that any user can create an instance.

---

a supposedly [...] P2P social network?

It's not P2P. A P2P network would be distributed. The Fediverse is decentralized.

JohnnyEnzyme , 1 day ago

Really interesting comments IMO, and pardon this delay in replying.

I'm disabled over here, but want to get in to this stuff more, si cela ne pose pas de problème?

RoseTintedGlasses , 19 days ago

all instance admins have the ability to do this on their own instance, the functionality was added to deal with doxx info being posted so it wouldnt be visible even in the modlog, and it was used a lot to deal with the CSAM spam attack too - basically whenever this happens the relevant message will still be in the modlog but it will be changed to "Permanently Removed". Currently there's no evidence or even accusation that this functionality has been used for anything except the stated purposes though so i wouldnt worry too much.

JohnnyEnzyme , 19 days ago

That's fine on 'paper,' but can you seriously not understand how it's being shamelessly abused on the Tankie / ML front?

RoseTintedGlasses , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

well i havent seen anyone even claiming its been used against them or pointing to their post being permanently removed from the modlogs unjustly, only people saying that maybe it could be used in this way, so no i dont think that the ML tankie front are using it that way. and since i know it has been used for its stated purpose to fully remove actual doxx information and child porn i dont see why it should be removed as a feature, at very least until there's some evidence of it being used maliciously

JohnnyEnzyme , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Well then, good for you.

Meanwhile, there's been a legion of solid users here pointing out across the FV that the ML has in fact been abusing its admin powers, or did you think that the whataboutism of CSA would somehow, magically erase that shizzle?

If so, then shame on you.

RoseTintedGlasses , 19 days ago

I didnt say that lemmy.ml mods havent been overbearing with their moderation i said "i havent seen anyone even claiming its been used against them or pointing to their post being permanently removed from the modlogs unjustly".

if you want me to spell it out slowly i can:

• lemmy.ml mods have abused admin powers at some points
• it is possible that the lemmy.ml people could abuse this admin power
• as far as im aware there is no evidence that anyone has misused this specific admin power
• this specific admin power has been used to remove child porn and dox info
• since this admin power has been used for good reasons and hasnt been used for bad reasons it shouldnt be removed as an admin power

JohnnyEnzyme , 19 days ago

as far as im aware there is no evidence that anyone has misused this specific admin power

In that case, then congrats for living in your own little delirium, apart from the many, many reports people have made reporting those specific abuses.

RoseTintedGlasses , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

can you link me a single example of someone saying that they had their post removed from the mod log

JohnnyEnzyme , 19 days ago

Absolutely.
I will make it a special point tomorrow to look up the many, many posts upon that matter made in the last couple days across the FV.

One also wonders what people like you were doing in the meantime, but never fear-- please DO add on with any more requests for such information in the coming days. I will be happy to do the lookups and get back to you. ^^

RoseTintedGlasses , 19 days ago

just to clarify i want evidence of this specific admin function being misused, i and everyone else already knows that the lemmy.ml mods are trigger happy with their bans, but you’re claiming that they’re misusing the anti-CSAM feature to remove comments from the modlog that they actually removed for criticising china to cover their tracks which i havent seen anyone else accuse them of

JohnnyEnzyme , 18 days ago

you’re claiming that they’re misusing the anti-CSAM feature to remove comments from the modlog

Right, that was one aspect of that, but at the end of the day?

What ML has clearly done is to fuck with the integrity of the Lemmy-sphere across multiple, fundamental levels, and that's what I and many others find completely unacceptable, and have of course stated as much.

Seriously, how is it even possible that you're browsing the FV and haven't seen this shit...?

Yes, yes-- I get the fact that you're a 'self-declared weirdo!' "Big proponent for killing all cis men! Token Trotskyite!"

You DO understand of course that civilisation is collapsing fast, much of it due to our bloody inactions, is it not..?

Kalcifer , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Your apparent antagonism towards the lead Lemmy developer is sensationalist and non-constructive. If you dislike their moderation then the solution is simple: leave their instances and communities. If your user does not reside on their instances then its admins cannot silence you. If you do not participate in their communities, then their moderators cannot silence you. If you do not wish to see their users then block their instances (though, I would still advise against this). Your argument is founded upon the premise that you don't like their opinions, so just don't listen. Don't taint the Lemmyverse's image with your false alarmism. Be the change that you wish to see. Start an instance with administrative rules that you think are better. Start a community with moderation rules that you think are better. If one finds that they are needing to resort to ad-homenim to gather support, then I would advise one to critically analyze their position and arguments.

EDIT (2024-06-07T19:25Z): From your other comments in this thread I see that you are advocating for the creation of new communities and for people to individually distance themselves from lemmy.ml, rather than defederation. I agree with this. I still disagree, however, with the approach and tone that you used in your post. I think the same end can and should be achieved without ad-homenim attacks.

Dasus , 19 days ago

Why is criticism never accepted?

Why is it "leave" instead of addressing the issues brought up?

Cowbee , 19 days ago

Because of federation.

If this were an internal issue with Lemmy.ml, ie the people on Lemmy.ml are collectively in favor of change, then it's different. If people outside of Lemmy.ml want to change Lemmy.ml, doesn't it make more sense to just build up what you think is better, so you don't need Lemmy.ml at all?

Olgratin_Magmatoe , 19 days ago

It's not that simple though due to the Federation. The .ml community are blended together with everything.

Asking for more reasonable moderation isn't a big ask.

Cowbee , 19 days ago

Is the Lemmy.ml instance federated with everyone against their will?

This is basically a smear campaign, Lemmy.world has been on an anti-Communist witch hunt for a long time, always has been. Marxists of all varieties are targeted by this witch hunt, when Lemmy.world can defederate at any time. Lemmy.ml's admins want to have a connected fediverse, so they have already stated that they won't defed .world, so .world's users can either block, defederate, or learn to live with it.

That's the entire point of federation, really.

nahuse , 19 days ago

But what if I don't want to live in my own echo chamber, nor do I want to be subjected to another echo chamber within which I can't participate? Having fair moderation practices and not banning people from participating in completely unrelated subs doesn't seem like too much to ask.

In my view this being completely about .world not liking .ml politics is a straw man. This is about decorum and applying moderation practices equally, without bias, and avoiding punitive bans in unrelated communities.

archomrade , 19 days ago

You can simultaneously be in both chambers, that's the nice thing about federation

I think it's healthy for people to be pushed into modulating their own behavior when in mixed company, I think it encourages a richer and more challenging experience. I wouldn't waltz into my local catholic church and start complaining about their stance on gay marriage, and then get mad when they decide they don't want me there anymore. If you want to participate in that community, you have to find a way to communicate with them without crossing that ideological threshold. And if you're just too dissimilar to get along at all then by golly, maybe that community isn't a great fit.

Olgratin_Magmatoe , 19 days ago

You can simultaneously be in both chambers, that’s the nice thing about federation

Not if they ban you for asking the most basic of questions about moderation, or for having a different opinion.

Banning people for having different opinions is bad.

archomrade , 19 days ago

In my experience, "just asking questions" is never just asking questions, but I suppose that's me presuming guilt

I've asked plenty of questions there and have never had a run in with their mods. I have to assume the question was insulting or disingenuous, or both.

But hey you can always make an account elsewhere and try again under better circumstances

Olgratin_Magmatoe , 18 days ago

"Why are there so many comments removed in this thread?" is a legitimate question.

archomrade , 18 days ago

That's funny because I run into that regularly on .world but I've never thought 'there must be a mod abusing their moderation right now'

Olgratin_Magmatoe , 18 days ago

That's on you then.

archomrade , 18 days ago

Actually I think it's on the people who go to .ml specifically to make an ideological statement

nahuse , 19 days ago

I think you and me would get along great if we met in person.

But I hate your web personality, friend. At least so far.

I’m choosing to just reply to this comment to you in this particular thread, because I’m a bit exhausted after talking to this linkerbaan fella in another thread. But I think you and I could really see eye to eye on a bunch of things, assuming I’m not mixing you up with somebody else.

I like your moxie, if you’ll excuse any condescension you may detect (it’s not there, I promise).

But this shit is precisely why I wanna have a good internet space for legit debate. I sincerely hope I can find a spot that offers an open forum for some good faith political debate that isn’t moderated based on butt-hurt-ed-ness.

archomrade , 18 days ago

But this shit is precisely why I wanna have a good internet space for legit debate

Then create a political debate comm? What's stopping you from doing that? I'd personally block that community immediately, because online debate bros have probably the least tolerable kind of online behavior. Thinking you can walk into someone else's community and start 'political debate' is probably why you can't understand their moderation - if I was the mod I'd ban you too

I'm familiar with linkerbann, I like seeing him around

Olgratin_Magmatoe , 19 days ago

This is basically a smear campaign

If showing failures in moderation constitutes a smear campaign, maybe don't go banning people because they disagree with you.

archomrade , 19 days ago

It's only a failure of moderation from your outside perspective, I'm sure people inside .ml might feel differently

Katana314 , 18 days ago

I had a calm, respectful comment about China's attempts to censor the Tiananmen Square photo removed for no reason, and without my knowledge. The idea that they're conducting "normal moderation" is laughable.

archomrade , 18 days ago

why does it matter if you think it's normal? it's not your instance

Katana314 , 18 days ago

This post is about informing people about the nature of that instance; something many people don't necessarily intend to interface with when they're just exploring their favorite niche topic community which simply happens to be there. We don't want people to unintentionally end up in that crowd without knowing about their principles or lack thereof.

archomrade , 18 days ago

Well I certainly agree it's good to be aware of the expectations of that instance if you plan on participating there, but that doesn't make their way of moderating their forum yours to judge.

But yea, it seems some people here who are complaining about being banned or having content removed could benefit from being more aware of the expectations of the forum their engaging with. I could have sworn I read you complaining about being banned for something I could have told you is likely to earn you a ban... Must've been someone else I guess.

Kalcifer , 19 days ago

There is no issue with either. I fully support civil criticism and discussion. And I also support users moving to a place where they feel a better sense of community. I think it's wrong to force people to interact with those that they don't wish to. This is why the fediverse exists — to remove centralized control over the discourse.

Dasus , 19 days ago

And I also support users moving to a place where they feel a better sense of community.

How about supporting users who want to improve their community instead of finding a new one?

If you don't like it, you can leave.

Cowbee , 19 days ago

Are people on Lemmy.ml advocating to improve their community, or is it just .worlders wanting to change .ml?

Kalcifer , 3 days ago

It's likely both. The ratio, however, I'm not sure of.

Kalcifer , 3 days ago

How about supporting users who want to improve their community instead of finding a new one?

I support that as well. My initial point was from the perspective of users not originating from lemmy.ml being annoyed with how lemmy.ml is administrating itself. If the users of lemmy.ml wish to stay to try and improve it, then I fully stand behind them, but, at the same time, I still support lemmy.ml's autonomy.

eskimofry , 19 days ago

Hey, this is the history of human civilization since humans existed. You want an answer for why people don't give up on their ideologies?

reagansrottencorpse , 20 days ago

I'm glad to have devs with principals. Go back to reddit lib.

muse , 20 days ago

Tianneman Square Massacre. Winnie the Pooh.

beardown , 19 days ago

Winnie the Pooh

Isn't this racist?

Also, remind me about Kent State. Or Ferguson. Or the extermination of Native Americans. Or concentration camps in the Philippines.

NOT_RICK , 20 days ago

I don’t think I will

Chozo , 20 days ago

If by "principals" you mean "banning anybody who falls outside of the groupthink", then sure, more power to ya.

goferking0 , 20 days ago

You say that like world or others instances don't do that

Chozo , 20 days ago

1, that's whataboutism, form a better argument. 2, that's still a weak "principal" to have and defending it as though it's a good thing is pretty cringe.

beardown , 19 days ago

.world is a zionist and CIA-affiliated shillstorm. It's just the US version of .ml

Both are equally bad because the US and China are equally bad. Don't believe me? Check out the death toll of Native American genocide, transatlantic slavery, Latin american imperialism, CIA coups during the Cold War, police repression today, and current prison populations.

Given that I have no idea why anyone would defend the United States. Unless you're brainwashed or working for the CIA

PeggyLouBaldwin , 19 days ago

i'm open to the possibility that you're right, but my experience is that criticism of the cia or zionism is tolerated to a much greater degree on .world than criticism of china or soviet russia is tolerated on .ml.

can you point to specific instance-wide bannings for talking shit on us foreign policy or zionism?

beardown , 19 days ago

It's tolerated in different ways. Ostracization and orchestrated mass downvotes are used rather than bans. .world utilizes methods of control that are more subtle than .ml. Which is consistent with how the CIA/West exerts control compared to China.

Our propaganda techniques and mechanisms of control are more multifaceted and less brutish and obvious - which isn't a good thing. It means that we create a veil and drape it over the eyes of our people so that they don't even realize that they are being controlled. This is the ideological state apparatus of the West that is drastically more effective than anything a socialist state has managed to create. Of course, we both have repressive state apparatuses as well, and our police are arguably more brutal than theirs (especially if you aren't white and female), but there is less need to use that when you are able to brainwash your public so effectively with subtle acts of ideological correction. And convincing them that hundreds of strangers are mad at them is a good way to minimize dissent from being articulated in the first place, as well as distractions such as typical liberal rage bait and "red team bad" distractions

PeggyLouBaldwin , 19 days ago

i think this is pretty hard to draw a direct comparison. first, a few mods/admins deciding to ban is not the same as hundreds of individuals voting. even if half of them are bots (no one games lemmy votes, though, do they?), that's still a far cry from someone stepping in and actually silencing a user.

second, while i think you're right about the nature of western societal control, i don't think there is any conspiracy to enact that on .world. maybe i'm naive though.

stevedidwhat_infosec , 20 days ago

Imagine trying to insult someone by calling them a liberal lmfao.

Who remembers when China was doing live organ farming on people?

Pepperidge farm fucking remembers.

AINeMyot , 20 days ago

Just FYI, the organ farming thing comes from Falun Gong, who are a weird cult that have been (perhaps overly) oppressed by the Chinese government. They have quite a strong media presence and some weird beliefs about organs.

stevedidwhat_infosec , 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

Really? Because I remember reading from the UN that this was taking place in the uyghur camps?

Edit: actually it’s both. So…

https://humanrightscommission.house.gov/events/hearings/forced-organ-harvesting-china-examining-evidence

AINeMyot , 17 days ago

I think it's worth considering that your evidence comes directly from a country that considers China an adversary, and they seem to take the Falun Gong organ harvesting as fact.

stevedidwhat_infosec , 16 days ago (edited 16 days ago)

True, however that doesn’t necessarily constitute falsehood in what they’re claiming.

The UN also did work on this, as did Canada and some investigative reporters in Europe.

China has lots of adversaries. Mainly anybody in the west, and they dominate any of their other Allies which makes them a de facto leader and would make criticism from anyone else pretty tough.

Edit: oh and in 2015 China announced that they wouldn’t do forced organ transplants on prisoners anymore - so they were most definitely participating in this disgusting practice.

https://www.scu.edu/ethics/healthcare-ethics-blog/forced-organ-harvesting-a-decades-long-injustice-in-need-of-international-accountability-and-action/

AINeMyot , 13 days ago

True, however that doesn’t necessarily constitute falsehood in what they’re claiming.

I appreciate that, I just think it was worth pointing out that its worth being sceptical about a source like that, as you would be about one coming from the Chinese government.

stevedidwhat_infosec , 13 days ago

100%

I’m critical of every ruling body, regardless of where I reside. There’s something to be said about having power over millions of people and how humans deal with that.

I’m especially critical of governments that are known to run PsyOps, disinformation campaigns, and known histories of abuse (US, China, Russia, Israel, Iran, North Korea, etc). Ultimately, the devil you know is better than the others, but we’re still working with devils

reagansrottencorpse , 20 days ago

Falun Gong propaganda lmao. Idiot.

stevedidwhat_infosec , 20 days ago

Don’t forget the Uyghurs! Your name calling has no effect against me and is frankly childish when you could’ve taken the opportunity to properly educate.

Instead you chose to call names. lol. Very telling.

There is no war in ba sing se ig

https://humanrightscommission.house.gov/events/hearings/forced-organ-harvesting-china-examining-evidence

toaster , 19 days ago

I take issue with both the authoritarian left and authoritarian right: being an apologist for Soviet Russia as well as being an apologist for the USA is not OK in my opinion.

I find it futile to take a position on which is worse because that just gives space to be an apologist for one that's "less bad". I see this happening in this thread right now.

Should I defederate from both lemmy.world and lemmy.ml? Of course not. In fact, I find both to be more tolerable and cooperative than reddit today.

oce , 19 days ago

Do you find lemmy.world defending the USA wrongdoing to be of a comparable extent as lemmy.ml defending the authoritarian left regimes wrongdoing?
I feel like lemmy.world is still pretty left compared to reddit and very commonly criticizing all the stupid wars the USA have been into as well as its support for Israel in its current war.

toaster , 15 days ago

That's a good question. To be honest with you, I've come across critiques of tankies on .ml as well as tankie nonsense. I've also come across some progressive discussion as well as USA apologism on .world.

So in my personal experience (may differ from others based on what communities we frequent) I haven't experienced so much tankie or American apologist content that I've felt the need to leave either community.

I agree with your sentiment that .world is left of reddit - as is Lemmy in general.

What I have been seeing is some users on .world coming across any tankies and wanting to defederate while seeing some amounts of pro-US imperialism on .world but ignoring it since (imo) we're desensitised to it especially coming from reddit.

I do not find that tankies define the communities I frequent on .ml any more than pro-US imperialism defines .world.

anticolonialist , 17 days ago

Enlightened centrist found in the wild

toaster , 15 days ago

You can be left-leaning while also not a fan of neoliberalism. :)

Allero , 20 days ago

As a fellow communist, I was always bewildered by this urge of many tankies to prove by all means, against any evidence, that China is socialist and ultimately good.

It's neither. China turned to markets, privatized many industries, and really did commit atrocities on Tiannamen square and in Xinjiang.

Doesn't mean socialism as a system is dysfunctional. United States are directly responsible for insane atrocities all over the world, and we don't need to deny that either.

We need to learn from the experience and strive for it not to happen again. Not close our eyes, scream "blah-blah-blah" and pretend it never happened.

China and the Soviet Union were responsible for acts of genocide, mass murdering/starving people, etc.

Doesn't mean this didn't happen in a capitalist world, and doesn't mean we should close our eyes on that to defend the good look of the system. If anything, this does the opposite. Problems need to be solved, not ignored.

I_Clean_Here , 19 days ago

Tables are, like fascists, searching for dogmatic "easy" in a complex world. You know, like ignorant assholes.

Allero , 19 days ago

All while it actually is kinda easy.

Some people found their niche and created good for the world, for which they were financially rewarded (this stage is every capitalist proponent's dream).

Then those who earned money this way let their heirs inherit wealth. Some of those heirs multiplied it, and became so wealthy they could influence either politicians or the market itself.

From that moment onwards, generation after generation accumulate power and skew the world to fit their needs, with little regard to anyone else.

Without wealth redistribution, everyone else loses real economic and political power, and this is an inevitable endgame for capitalism because without this incentive such people wouldn't do good stuff for the world to begin with. We just finally reap the fruits of the system that were always there, and without a great shake, a "communist threat", this isn't going anywhere.

The thing that influenced the world and turned the tides in the early XX century was the success of Soviet Union which radicalized people around the globe and forced bourgeoisie to make concessions.

Unfortunately, workers of most countries stopped there, the proposed worldwide revolution never came, and most of the capital remained by capitalists, which has put socialist block at a huge capital disadvantage, with which they still managed to sustain for most of XX century, building huge economies almost from scratch.

Along this way, many regimes have either faced grave mistakes or considered all means worthy, which has led to a lot of suffering. This was exacerbated by the fact that socialist block was primarily dominated by authoritarian regimes, which gave carte blanche for many leaders to act as they please, with little regard to collateral damage. Aside from that, the Cold War, while it can and should be blamed on both sides of the conflict, has led to plenty of proxy wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives.

That's really it.

ameancow , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

You also don't affect lasting, meaningful change with dreams of an "uprising" or other fanciful ideas spawned by stories of Cuba in the 50's. There will be no romantic struggle here, no plucky rebels, no heartwarming finale where everyone is happy.

If you want to make the world better, work on it from within the system and learn why the system is the way it is and what power you have as an individual and as a group, THIS is how people have changed the world before.

I would delight in socialism becoming more widespread and accepted as a system to maintain population growth and happiness, I argue for it all the time, we need a number of very important safety nets before we start feeling like our tax money is going into something less abstract than "America: fuck yeah!" But I also know it takes more than cosplay theatrics and defending tyrants.

edit: the tankies are mad.

Allero , 19 days ago

On that, I'd sadly have to disagree to a degree.

Most radical shifts, especially as large as revamping an entire economic system, were violent or at least highly outside the existing framework, not some "change from the inside".

Behind any government is a desire for self-preservation - and capitalist democracies rig elections by underrepresenting the disadvantaged and also, as other systems, through the bureaucratic inertia that is there for a reason.

Taking America as the most studied case, the two-party system absolutely does not allow for the building of socialism, as both parties are highly capitalist in nature, and the rest exist there as a pure formality, deprived of resources for actual political campaigning. All while plenty of anti-freedom acts are taken specifically to silence who people in power don't want to see.

At the same time, the two leading parties create an illusion that this is the only choice and that Democrats are "the left" and act in the interest of the people. Even the most unprecedented case - the campaign of Bernie Sanders - came with what essentially can be seen as centrism - and even that was seen as "too much" with him failing miserably.

Similar story in many countries.

They flood the media, they control the opposition, and they approve anti-democratic laws - all to cement their place and make sure exactly that no change is ever gonna come from the inside.

Which is why, sadly, through all my desire for peace, I have to say that small and steady change is not enough. That's not to say that you shouldn't vote whoever's the biggest and leftest in your area, that you shouldn't do what is within the law and the current system to improve the situation where possible - but thinking it would be enough is a bit of a fairy dream.

ameancow , 19 days ago

The fairy dream here is thinking that America is ever going to suffer a violent uprising from a socialist/left direction.

I know if you consume all the propaganda it will feel like this is really the viable solution to so many of our problems, but every meme that proudly shows people in jumpsuits marching under a red flag, they tend to ignore the reality which is if every tankie and socialist were to topple the US government tomorrow, we would still have to live with the hundreds of millions of people who do NOT want a socialist utopia. There is no long-term planning, there is a really delusional belief with some people that actually says "Once the population sees how good it will be, they will fall in line" and I want to scream and physically shake you idiots out there who think this shit.

You can push our society towards more social policies that help more people, but this is nowhere close to a realistic time to talk about actual takeovers and coups. It's insane and stupid and it fucking HURTS the cause advocating for better policies and social services.

Cowbee , 19 days ago

That's not what revolutionary Leftists think would happen, lol. That would be adventurism, not a mass worker movement. Please read any book by a revolutionary, nobody is advocating for coups and then hoping everyone falls in line, lol.

It sounds stupid because it is stupid, which is why the adventurists you speak of are seen as ridiculous among revolitionary leftists.

ameancow , 19 days ago

k

Allero , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

No one expects America to turn communist today, not in 10, 20, 50 years. The red scare and capitalist propaganda is so bad it would be idiotic to assume America as a socialist frontier.

But:

1. We have to work against red scare and change the people, not the government;
2. We should develop revolutionary movements in other parts of the world. The successes of USSR in the 30s have seriously affected people everywhere, including America.

ameancow , 19 days ago

I get involved in my local elections and city/county boards to endorse and support every policy or candidate that either leans distantly socialist, or puts any measure of power or control back in the hands of the people and workers. That alone will do far, far more realistic good for each of us than "developing revolutionary movements." That's still roleplaying and I don't think the USSR's "successes" were as meaningful as the tankies propaganda makes it out to be. But that's not an invite for a biased history lesson.

Allero , 19 days ago

I think USSR really did influence the world in a big way. No debates, just stating my stance.

It is great that you participate in what you do, and I advise any socialist to act the same, but it doesn't mean you can't do both.

Fight the system in existing framework, but don't forget it's not the only way. Think revolutionary, but do not settle for that alone and fight the system by legal means too. One shouldn't exclude the other.

rusticus , 19 days ago

Not sure where you are from, but your type of worldly reasoned view does not come without exposure to multiple systems of governance. Labels like “socialism”, “communism”, “capitalism” are the Newspeak that are used to place the populace opinion into buckets with which to control. And I completely agree about the US - its entire history is based upon capitalism and will always be based upon capitalism. Biden is the MOST progressive president in 50 years, yet it’s a stretch to even call him a centrist he’s so enmeshed with the existing corporatists.

Allero , 19 days ago

I operate dictionary definitions.

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production.

Socialism is dictated by the common (social) ownership of the means of production, and communism is a subset of socialism that entails absence of money and private property (note: not personal property).

US is blatantly capitalist. Nordic countries are capitalist, too. USSR was socialist, Russia is capitalist; revolutionary regime preceding the creation of USSR was also briefly communist (see: War communism), though, make no mistake, this wasn't the kind of communism anyone wanted, it's just that government couldn't run monetary policy properly at the time and had even bigger issues.

rusticus , 19 days ago

I operate dictionary definitions.

What. The. Fuck?

Allero , 19 days ago

Clarify, please?..

ssj2marx , 19 days ago

Two things:

• We can be critical of the mistakes of past socialist systems without falling into the trap of believing every red scare era lie about them.
• Not defending past socialist systems' accomplishments makes current socialists look like absolute cucks.

Winning the rhetorical war cannot be done if you stop to qualify every single thing you advocate for by disavowing every society that has ever advocated for that thing. The USSR was the most equal society that has existed on this earth since the industrial revolution, and served every one of its member countries better than they are served by their capitalist successor governments today. Meanwhile, basically every person who has been lifted out of poverty in the past thirty years has been Chinese, proving that socialism fucking works in a way that capitalism doesn't, even when both systems contain markets, wage labor, and an investment class.

Allero , 19 days ago

We can be critical of the mistakes of past socialist systems without falling into the trap of believing every red scare era lie about them.

Absolutely! But we should also own up to the mistakes that really happened. China did turn to markets, because capitalist world once again got a critical share, and the benefits of international trade could hardly be overlooked. Tiannamen square massacre really happened, as documented in many instances. The conversion happening in Xinjiang is barely peaceful. USSR really did send insane amounts of people to GULAG, despite the scale of this atrocity often being overblown by liberals (but even still it's massive), and really did forcefully move entire nationalities.

Don't get me wrong, by any means, I do not denounce USSR or China and the roles they took in building a better future for everyone. In fact, the achievements they've made forced governments around the world to improve working and living conditions of the people - people that saw what the world could actually be. And inside countries, socialism has caused immense economic improvements - though, it must be said, the turn in both USSR and China was cruel and radical, which caused a lot of massive supply problems, famines, and more. But at the end of the day, they truly emerged the powerful forces on the world stage, and this really was an economic miracle and victory of the people.

If I would personally assess the heritage of the socialist era, I would say it was a massive win for the world. But if we want for the socialism to finally take over the world, we need to be fair with ourselves and others on the shortcomings of the bygone times. At the very least, not to repeat them again.

UnderpantsWeevil , 19 days ago

prove by all means, against any evidence, that China is socialist and ultimately good

Taps life expectancy, infant mortality, and education statics

That's it. That's the nefarious methodology of the villainous Wumao.

Allero , 19 days ago

By that I primarily meant "Chinese government is not guilty in atrocities it ordered to commit"

But in general, of course China is a miracle in many ways.

UnderpantsWeevil , 19 days ago

You could write textbooks about bad Chinese policies - foreign and domestic.

But a country on it's fifteenth five year plan is most definitely socialist. And if any nation can qualify as "good", the miracle of Chinese central planning would seem to qualify.

That's why leftists are prone to like it. That, and the derth of foreign military conflicts. At least from the perspective of an American, the Chinese government is practically saint-like, simply because it isn't trying to regime change every country it doesn't like.

Pre-Iraq, I think you could make a much stronger "China bad" argument. But the bar is so much lower now.

toaster , 19 days ago

That's why leftists are prone to like it.

This has not been my experience speaking to leftists at all.

Allero , 19 days ago

The economy of China is not characterized by the common/social ownership of the means of production, which means it is not socialist. No amount of five-year plans can change that.

China does spark international conflicts and does bully its neighbors, but it is true that the country doesn't cosplay world police and doesn't participate much in military operations outside the country, which is a big plus.

As per the bar, it shouldn't fall lower just because some country got even more evil. We can compare the evils, but the evil will be there.

With all that said, I do not say "China bad". But claiming "China good" would also not be correct.

Cowbee , 19 days ago

I don't think people are saying that the PRC is economically Socialist, just that it has a Dictatorship of the Proletariat of some sort and appears to be more keen on keeping its bourgeoisie in check.

Coupled with their intent to challenge Western Imperialism (Lenin's definition), I believe this explains critical support among Marxists for the PRC, despite the many flaws.

Kinda like supporting Biden over Trump, not like supporting Bernie over Trump. You work with what's actually there, even if it isn't what you wished, and hope things change for the better.

Allero , 19 days ago

That makes sense.

UnderpantsWeevil , 19 days ago

The economy of China is not characterized by the common/social ownership of the means of production

30% of their industry is SOEs. They have a 90% home ownership rate and one of the most generous pension systems left standing - affording Chinese workers the opportunity to retire inside their 50s. The local property laws force foreign companies to share equity with regional firms, keeping both profits and IP domestic.

And while the high point of the old-school Commune System is long passed, the household responsibility system still guarantees public ownership of arable land. If you work the land, you own the fruit of your labor. That's textbook Communism.

China does spark international conflicts and does bully its neighbors

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2cf8f13a-fa11-43d8-8d36-752e4292c575.jpeg

the country doesn’t cosplay world police and doesn’t participate much in military operations outside the country, which is a big plus.

It goes beyond the negative. They've been a positive force for international relations, helping to buffer North and South Korea to prevent a new war, exporting $100B/year in agriculture products to curb global hunger, and pioneering industrial scale solar, wind, and nuclear technologies to mitigate climate change.

As a global diplomat, they've got cache that the Western states have squandered, making them a popular back channel in Middle Eastern politics.

And to quote Dr. Lubinda Haabazoka, Director at the University of Zambia's Graduate School of Business

Every time Britain visits we get a lecture, every time China visits we get a hospital.

I would say that alone illustrates why Chinese foreign policy deserves praise.

Allero , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Textbook communism is an economy that is 100% worker-owned, with everyone's needs directly met without the intervention of money. The rest is not that, by literal definition. Let's not play into the hands of people who want to call that communism and ultra-left to exploit in their own needs.

China does have some strong policies, but it doesn't make it communist by any definition. Also, high home ownership rate is mostly a cultural phenomenon, with housing still seen as "best investment" despite the fact there are entire ghost towns full of houses that never ever filled.

I'm well aware that US pressures China militarily, and that China has a much more peaceful approach. However, Chinese ships regularly bully other countries in the South China Sea against international maritime laws.

The infrastructure China builds is not just a gift - but an investment on which China expects a return. I'm not convinced China is actively pursuing debt trap diplomacy, but it certainly uses economic power to pressure other countries into various concessions.

UnderpantsWeevil , 18 days ago

Textbook communism is an economy that is 100% worker-owned, with everyone’s needs directly met without the intervention of money

Utopian Communism is a stateless, moniless society that was hypothized by 19th century European theorists as a possible result of generations of revolutionary struggle.

But if you sit down and read the textbook, you'll discover even the most idealistic thinkers don't hold that it would happen overnight. Marx, himself, asserts a number of transitional states - industrial capitalism being one of them - necessary to reach surplus volumes capable of sustaining a post-money society.

China does have some strong policies, but it doesn’t make it communist by any definition.

The policies are the direct result of experimental application of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist socio-economic theory. They are explicitly and deliberately Communist, in the same way that American socio-economic policy is Capitalist.

The end goal of Chinese state policy is to advance to a state of publicly controlled superabundance. This is markedly different from the American policies intended to fashion fully privatized ownership of an artificially scare pool of goods and services.

The infrastructure China builds is not just a gift - but an investment on which China expects a return.

A return in the form of improved economic and political relations. It is for the same reason you would bring a gift to a birthday party.

Allero , 18 days ago (edited 18 days ago)

You're right on classics - but off topic.

I'm saying that China does not economically classify as a communist state, neither did even USSR, because it just wasn't feasible at the moment.

I'm combating the change of meaning where communism as officially proclaimed ideology is conflated with communism as an actual economic system. As a result of this, people start thinking that communism is when a state controls some sides of economy and gets involved in social programs, which is not a definition of communism, it's a capitalist state with social elements.

A state can even apply some of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principles, but it is economically capitalist as long as means of production are controlled by private entities looking for profit. This is not an argument about what China should or shouldn't do - this is an argument that China is not economically communist or even socialist, like it or not. Neither was USSR during the so-called New Economic Policy.

A return in form of cash or lease.

UnderpantsWeevil , 18 days ago

I’m saying that China does not economically classify as a communist state

They do. Because they're pursuing communist economic policies.

communism as officially proclaimed ideology is conflated with communism as an actual economic system

Sure. If I'm Elon Musk and saying "By the way, I am actually a socialist. Just not the kind that shifts resources from most productive to least productive" then that's horseshit nonsense.

However, if I'm Luo Wen, the current director of the State Administration for Market Regulation, focused on breaking up monopolies and limiting the capacity of private business to consolidate control in a given industry, I'm both ideologically and actually committed to communist economic principles.

A state can even apply some of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principles, but it is economically capitalist as long as means of production are controlled by private entities

The Chinese state leadership gave up on trying to be direct owner-operators of capital during the Deng Era. However, it still strictly enforces a prohibition on foreign control of domestic capital as a legacy of its anti-colonial mission. The means of production remain property of the Chinese proletariat.

Allero , 18 days ago

Define "communist economic policies".

If you're Luo Wen, you're in favor of state regulations of the capitalist market; you are not pursuing communist policies.

It's not enough to maintain domestic control of the capital - this is a feature of any protectionist regime, even a fascist one. You should also make sure this capital is entirely democratically controlled and owned by the workers - which is not what happens in China. The capital of Chinese businesses is not the "property of workers".

UnderpantsWeevil , 18 days ago

Define “communist economic policies”.

Strict prohibitions on foreign controlling interest in real estate, capital, and intellectual property, for starters.

If you’re Luo Wen, you’re in favor of state regulations of the capitalist market

State regulation for the purpose of limiting foreign ownership, foreign manipulation of domestic markets, and foreign monopoly of natural resources. This leads to:

• Enormous SOEs where demand is inelastic - in the utilities, agriculture, education, and health care sectors.
• Domestication of intellectual property, such that foreign investors effectively subsidize Chinese R&D and future capital improvements
• Large investments in public infrastructure which operates at-cost or at-loss, for the purpose of stimulating domestic economic growth
• Stringent restrictions on what is seen as socially harmful economic activity - casinos/gambling, recreational drug use, electronic entertainment, and reactionary media
• Protecting the viability of public pensions and public insurance, for the purpose of flattening the risk curve and improving long term quality of life

All of these rules are intended to protect domestic markets and maintain local control of business capital.

The capital of Chinese businesses is not the “property of workers”.

It is the property of the Chinese People, as opposed to a cartel of foreign landlords. The surplus produced by Chinese business returns to the Chinese economy in the form of improvements to the socio-economic landscape. Chinese consumers enjoy an abundance of at-cost / below-cost social services, because they are not exposed to the rent-seeking behaviors of the predatory capitalist class. And Chinese business executives suffer the kind of regulatory surveillance and oversight that is largely neglected in Western democracies.

This guarantees that workers enjoy the surplus value of their labor. And that is the end goal of a Communist economy.

Allero , 17 days ago (edited 17 days ago)

Strict prohibitions on foreign controlling interest in real estate, capital, and intellectual property, for starters.

This is protectionism and it has literally nothing to do with communism. Those are two absolute different things that can coexist or not coexist.

Same relates to your other points.

Your rhetoric is eerily similar to protectionist points of Nazi Germany, a very non-communist state that was obsessed with domestic control and protecting domestic capitalist with the proclaimed idea of "capital belonging to all people of Germany", as opposed to "evil Jewish cartels".

Simply trapping the capital inside the country speaks little of what gets to the workers. And if we talk communism, ALL of the capital is directly owned by the collective of workers. Which is not China.

UnderpantsWeevil , 17 days ago

This is protectionism and it has literally nothing to do with communism.

It's protection for domestic ownership of property.

Your rhetoric is eerily similar to protectionist points of Nazi Germany

It was similar to Communist protectionist points of the KDP.

You've been pumped full of bad info, and at this point I don't know what to tell you except to get outside whatever Western propaganda hot house you've found yourself in.

Allero , 17 days ago

As I said, protectionism may coexist or not coexist with communism, as it can with any other economic system.

If you're serious about equating protectionism and communism, you should probably be happy with the way things were done in the Third Reich.

You should seriously reconsider the terms you employ, and read the classics more thoroughly. Also, open the goddamn Wikipedia if you're too lazy for that.

UnderpantsWeevil , 16 days ago

protectionism may coexist or not coexist with communism

Only if you ignore the history of anti-colonialism that gave birth to communist movements in the third world.

If you’re serious about equating protectionism and communism, you should probably be happy with the way things were done in the Third Reich.

That's utterly ahistorical. There was nothing protectionist about Nazi Germany.

Allero , 16 days ago

No, I just state the fact that protectionism doesn't mean communism and globalism doesn't mean capitalism.

They are different terms for a reason.

There was everything protectionist about Nazi Germany, who seeked to give control of German industries to German capitalists.

UnderpantsWeevil , 16 days ago

protectionism doesn’t mean communism and globalism doesn’t mean capitalism

Capitalism requires an economic frontier for continuous growth, which necessitates extraterritorial expansion. Communism requires home rule and self-sufficient domestic industry, which necessitates protectionism.

They are different terms for a reason.

One describes a broad philosophy and the other describes a tool of policy. Might as well say Plumber and Pipe are different terms for a reason.

Allero , 16 days ago (edited 16 days ago)

Communism does not necessitate self-sufficiency, moreover, a switch to fully domestic production is detrimental to any economy. The reason modern economy is globalized is that it's simply more efficient, and capitalist economies are all about efficiency, as it allows to extract more value. At the same time, many past socialist economies were forced to only partner with other socialist economies, which limited their options and hurt their economy.

One of the key reasons communist classics called for a global revolution is to gain the critical mass of communism-aligned countries to minimize this effect and maximize globalization efforts. The communist endgame is one interconnected world without any nations to begin with, not to mention any protectionism.

That's all, like, economics 101.

UnderpantsWeevil , 16 days ago

Communism does not necessitate self-sufficiency

I don't think you've ever actually read the theory.

Allero , 16 days ago (edited 16 days ago)

I don't think you did read Marx, Engels, and Lenin.

Can't say for Mao, did not read his works close enough.

But the communism classics would strongly disagree with you; besides, you stray so so far from the original topic.

squid_slime , 19 days ago

Currently we are witnessing a capitalist genocide in Gaza were children are starving to death and the working class are powerless to stop this. But yea denial on both sides certainty is problematic, the issue is though "tankie" communists will argue propaganda as well as the libs and conservatives. We have been bombarded with fictitious narrative that its a real struggle to find comprehensive and honest reporting of previous events.

Last month I read a "tankies" recap on Tiannamen Square protests, it went as far as to say there was no massacre and quoted creditable journalist that had reported a peaceful evening on the night of the massacre, but I equally saw photos of piled up buddies, bloodied police officers and alike. There's also a conspiracy that the CIA staged the massacre or played some rule within it.

Ive also dealt with american denying the genocide in Vietnam, or Americas rule in creating North Korean.

Solidarity comrade

bdonvr , 20 days ago

Yeah this is the origin of Lemmy. Reddit banned some far left subreddits years ago and so some Communists went and made Lemmy.

Just block the instance if it bothers you. Jeez.

BarbecueCowboy , 20 days ago

lemmy.ml was one of the targets in one of the larger reddit migration waves before we found out how heavy handed the censorship was there at the time and there's a few large communities that cling to it. And, it's fair, the communities there don't typically generate anything where they would reasonably expect to be affected, but still if you block the whole instance, you basically just have to go without as there frequently aren't similar communities to fill the void.

ksynwa , 20 days ago

lemmy.ml shut down registration during the migration of sweaty reddit nerds.

eldavi , 19 days ago

this post makes me wish lemmy.world did the same thing

ksynwa , 16 days ago

As far as I can tell, .world is great for the reddit emigres. There have been disagreements amd drama (as is tradition with online communities especially federated ones) but the instance is doing fine it seems.

BarbecueCowboy , 19 days ago

If you're talking about the API blackout, there is evidence that it was broken briefly, but there's nothing indicating it was purposefully disabled for any reasonable amount of time.

There are even posts from the lemmy.ml admins about how difficult it was dealing with the users who had migrated and how difficult it was to deal with the new users. Maybe you're talking about a different migration, but I have no idea where you got this idea from.

ksynwa , 16 days ago

I don't know about this API blackout. I am talking about something else entirely. When Reddit migration was at its peak, registrations on this instance (lemmy.ml). The reason given was that the devs did not want to overwhelm themselves with the abruptly increased administrative and moderation responsibilities. At that time, Lemmy (the software) was facing significant performance issues as well, owing to the fact that that many users had not used Lemmy concurrently before that.

On the other hand, I tried to find the announcement post for this. (I remember one existing.) But I couldn't. Have I hallicinated an elaborate scenario? I am not sure. Will try to look again.

BarbecueCowboy , 16 days ago

On the reddit end, the API blackout was probably responsible for the largest reddit migration, around June of last year. It's the high point for active monthly users for Lemmy on fediverse observer still and we had a lot less lemmy instances then. All those other items would be true beyond turning off signups, there were many conversations about performance issues along with a lot of concerns about moderation.

absquatulate , 20 days ago

This whole lemmy tankie dev thing has been discussed ad nauseam here for the past year or so. Not sure what solutions you suggest, but if I were to filter my software by who's an asshole dev and who's not, that list will end up really short.

As far as the ml instance goes, I don't agree that we should start defederating left and right with any and all undesirables, but to each their own. At least people now will be in the know, and it might take some weight off lemmy.world

cloudless OP , 20 days ago

Not sure what solutions you suggest

That's why I included this section in my post:

And the discussions for finding/creating alternative communities on other instances:
https://lemmy.world/post/16235541

HappyFrog , 18 days ago

They were wondering about the dev thing. Having a lead dev be an asshole isn't that big of a deal. It's open source, so any code that would somehow benefit them would also benefit you.

givesomefucks , 20 days ago

OP has been here two months, and they were shocked to find out an instance literally named after Karl Marx and John Lennin would pretend to be on the left but support authoritarian governments...

And they assume since they just "discovered" it, no one else knows.

null , 20 days ago

... John Lennin?

CheapFrottage , 20 days ago

Father of the gulag, founder of the Beatles

givesomefucks , 20 days ago

It's crazy to think about, but even after all these years, people insist he was bigger than Jesus

oce , 20 days ago

Imagine all the Pol Pot...

agamemnonymous , 20 days ago

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/b45dc35c-1698-4197-a1b2-84a035efe596.jpeg

ImplyingImplications , 20 days ago

"Imagine no private ownership of the means of production, I wonder if you can"

herrvogel , 19 days ago

I'm the walrus

GBU_28 , 20 days ago

It's as if people are joining and learning things.

Lifecoach5000 , 20 days ago

Been here an almost year and literally just learned that from the above post.

octopus_ink , 20 days ago

terally named after Karl Marx and John Lennin

John Lennon

Vladimir Lenin

Hadriscus , 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

John Lennin. Rofl Mao

errer , 20 days ago

It’s not named after Lemmy from Motörhead?

redcalcium , 19 days ago

They probably mean the .ml part.

realitista , 20 days ago

I had to block a handful of bad actors, maybe around 15, and don't have much issue now. As usual it's a very small, very vocal minority that's doing most of the shitting in the pool. Unfortunately many are also mods of communities like politics@lemmy.ml, so generally not subscribing to stuff there is a good policy too.

Mr_Wobble , 20 days ago

I've only been on Lemmy a month, and this shit is already exhausting. Isn't a main point of this whole fediverse thing that you can just block entire instances as well as users? Why is this even an ongoing topic that spans multiple communities?

nahuse , 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

It’s all over because it’s a pervasive problem, and it’s obviously off putting to a lot of people.

And it’s especially a problem when there are random communities peppered in your feed that you simply can’t participate in randomly, even though they may be the largest of their kind.

Ive been banned from communities I have yet to participate in, for no reason, and without any responses from mods when I ask what happened.

It’s making it so the entire platform becomes toxic unless you actively persevere through their unfair practices.

It’s important to me because I really liked Reddit back in the day, and before that the disperate forums that existed all over. I’m sure there are plenty of people who are interested in those same things, but are put off when they inevitably say something “liberal” in a meme space and are attacked for it. It’s toxic and it is counter to growth.

Not to mention how blatant an echo chamber it creates, and how naive users can be indoctrinated to misinformation without even a hint of counter discussion being allowed.

Edit: desperate to disperate

otp , 20 days ago

I can't even see what instance you're from, but your account is only a couple months old. Why not create one on a different instance?

nahuse , 20 days ago

I’ve been banned from several .ml subs, some of which are so popular they appear on All, and I didn’t know I was banned until I tried to upvote, but I’ve never participated otherwise in them, it was punitive for other comments and discussions I’ve had where I have debated politics and, propaganda, and media with mods.

I may actually be banned from the instance, but i don’t know how to investigate such things. But .ml came up an awful lot when I was looking into how to join Lemmy, obviously, and I had no idea how bad the mod practices and ideological bend would be on what amounts to one of the “main” instances.

I’m on shitjustworks, which I really like. But before I knew how different instances worked, I just assumed Lemmy was Reddit power tripping mods 2.0 across all of Lemmy. I’m glad I persevered a little bit to get to more communities.

OpenStars , 19 days ago

You are, for the next 7 days. This is your modlog actions on Lemmy.ml:

https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=9504078

Some of that stuff would get you banned from shitjustworks though too - e.g. civility.

nahuse , 19 days ago

I had a conversation with the mod who deleted my comments for being uncivil. A troll reported me being an asshole to him, as he trolled. If you look at the deleted thread, you can see their deleted comments.

it’s not my proudest moment, but I firmly believe that assholes should he confronted by assholes, and I took it upon myself in that moment.

Aside from that single interaction, I have abided by the rules of the forum and been polite, within reason. But I have, without remorse, questioned bullshit and disinformation.

OpenStars , 18 days ago

Well I hope it helps that now you know how to check your modlog actions:-). You put your name in the box, but the hard part is figuring out which modlog even has the record of the event - though usually the instance where the community is located at.

Yeah I wonder how much assholery those admins bring upon themselves by being that way to others first, it's like they almost do it on purpose and then use it as an excuse - e.g. Russia will say "poor me, the Ukraine is attacking me, it's so not fair boo-hoo" :-P.

Jakeroxs , 20 days ago

It's because they're on the same instance as you (and me)

otp , 19 days ago

Ooh, good to know. I'm still a noob here, lol

octopus_ink , 20 days ago

Isn’t a main point of this whole fediverse thing that you can just block entire instances as well as users?

You can do exactly that. OP wants everyone to do it.

Mr_Wobble , 20 days ago

I'm new here, so pardon my lack of understanding. But if this lemmy_.ml place is engaging in such disagreed upon behavior by so many people, why hasn't it been banned so I'm not even seeing it in the first place? I've recently learned there are whole lemmy servers ignored or banned by most other civil lemmy servers due to their bad behavior, why not ml?

If this really has been going on for over a year, and so many communities are against it, why is it not banned?

octopus_ink , 20 days ago

Please bear in mind that I'm a lemmy.ml user (though not a tankie, nor marxist, nor even socialist.)

Look at OP. How many lines are about smearing someone for their politics and beliefs (Even the subject line covers ONLY that), and how many are about the need to improve moderation practices at .ml (precious few, not even the subject line).

IMO that's one reason. The discussion rarely ends up being about moderation practices even when that's the stated goal. It ends up being about not liking someone's views.

The other reasons - you can personally block that instance if you choose, but for it to be hidden from EVERYONE on an instance, the admins of the instances need to make that decision. (To defederate.) There are lots of potential reasons not to do so, and I think many of them boil down to not throwing out the baby with the bathwater since there are plenty of users on ml like me who are not tankies and are just having the same discussions we'd have anywhere.

I got a 3 day ban from one single community at .ml within my first couple days here for using the term "whataboutism" - I suspect it was an automod action. I wasn't really happy about it, but eh? shrug

I have the same answer for folks now that I did when social media was somehow full of US conservatives claiming they could no longer speak their minds on social media. No one is obligated to give me or you or anyone a platform. If Lemmy.ml is that much of a shithole, it will eventually get defederated broadly, and everyone who isn't a tankie will stop using it.

The occasional thread like this, or someone complaining that my opinion is invalid because I'm an ml user (has happened maybe three times) are the only times I ever think about it really.

akakunai , 20 days ago

This would make a ton of sense if your choice of Lemmy instance were not just that; a choice. It's not a characteristic innate to your being that you're born with or something.

You can choose to associate with whatever instance you want and swap it up with another account somewhere else if you want at any time (you can prob keep the same username if you want too).

octopus_ink , 19 days ago

This would make a ton of sense if your choice of Lemmy instance were not just that; a choice. It’s not a characteristic innate to your being that you’re born with or something.

Either I don't understand your objection, or you don't understand my point. Legitimately it could be either of those. I don't see what this has to do with most of what I said above.

You can choose to associate with whatever instance you want and swap it up with another account somewhere else if you want at any time (you can prob keep the same username if you want too).

OK, yes... Are you saying I should move my account elsewhere because OP (or some other people) don't like that my account says .ml at the end? Or because I'm only supposed to have an account on instances where I agree with the political leanings of those who run it?

Serinus , 19 days ago

There's an awful lot of political views around that aren't tankie.

And it's less about the users and more about the kind of lopsided, censorship moderation that happens on .ml

octopus_ink , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

And it’s less about the users and more about the kind of lopsided, censorship moderation that happens on .ml

That may be your concern, but it's not the discusion OP started. That's the discussion OP claims to have started.

Quoting myself from yesterday:

Subject line: Nothing about moderation or censorship, it's about smearing the target's views.

First two sentences: Nothing about moderation or censorship, it's about smearing the target's views.

Third sentence: Links to archive.org link that fails to load. (I think they are still under DoS attack) May or may not be about moderation, but nothing OP wrote in the leadup to the link leads me to believe it's about more than smearing the target's views.

Then a couple links that sound like they are about discussing moderation.

Then another para smearing the target's opinions and politics some more.

I feel like those ratios are a bit off if OP is really so bothered about moderation practices.

There’s an awful lot of political views around that aren’t tankie.

Sure, but most of the time you don't know anything at all about who designs and develops the systems you use. I totally support people going to where they feel comfortable, and I'm a huge believer in defederation as one of the strengths of the fediverse. Block early and block often and all that. OP didn't spend time on that though, OP spent most of their time on character assassination.

Also, the target of these smears is the main Lemmy dev - not just Lemmy.ml. If OP is so concerned about their influence then OP should move to mbin or something.

nickwitha_k , 19 days ago

(you can prob keep the same username if you want too).

Unless it is already taken on the new instance, you absolutely can. Usernames are namespaced similar to email addresses. So, example@lemmy.world and example@lemmy.ml are considered two different users. This means that there is no technical reason preventing it.

OpenStars , 19 days ago

Tankie is a pejorative. We should stop using that - I am not sure what the best replacement is, authoritarian? Fascist?

OP seems to believe that the unfair admin/mod practices stem from their political beliefs. e.g., going against their very own Code of Conduct, the amins in question used subversive database manipulation practices to eliminate the mod-log explanations for their actions, and also preemptively banned various people from communities that they had never (even so much as once) commented in, in the past. The latter is EXTREME, and the former is disingenuous.

Oh, but the admin is an authority-loving fascist, hence it suddenly all makes sense: "service to stated principles that serve the community good" give way to "whoever has the power to accomplish things does whatever they want", in that world-view. So they are not entirely as disconnected as you might wish in a purely mathematical & theoretical world. This is the real world, where it gets messy, and EVERYTHING gets political. But okay, what if OP made a poorly-written post - b/c their heart jumped out ahead of their brain - what then? It doesn't mean that it's not true, or a good thing to do, even then, and moreover what to do about it now? Re-word it if you like and write and post a new one? But this is the one that we have. Yeah, again, irl gets messy sometimes.

You missed some stuff yourself btw. As individual people block you - by which I do not just mean personally but your entire instance of choice - increasingly you will find yourself speaking to an echo chamber consisting of fascists + those who are more neutral towards authoritarianism. You will reply to people, and wonder why so few ever reply back to you - but it won't be b/c they don't like you (well maybe some, I dunno:-P), and rather they won't even see your replies unless they happen to visit that section of the comments for some other reason. They can do so, but they will not be notified so they will not be made aware of your desire to communicate.

This event is happening, like it or not, and one way or another. This OP at least gives us the chance to talk about it, before things go too far and even this much communication becomes impossible. i.e., the Western world is offering you this lifeboat, to let you know what is coming. Truth Social surely does far worse, and when Elon took over Twitter and renamed it to X, he didn't warn people, and instead just started removing and banning at will/whim. But the rest of the Fediverse isn't going to remain associated with fascism just b/c some innocent people have an account on Lemmy.ml.

Btw, in your Settings under "Import/Export Settings" there is a large button Export that can make a JSON file, and in a new account you can Import it, for easy transfer of your settings. You'd lose all your past comments/replies/up-/downvotes, but if you also transfer your iconic avatar and keep the same name, many people may not even notice.

I am sorry that this is upsetting to you.

octopus_ink , 19 days ago

First, thanks for the thoughtful and thorough reply.

I am sorry that this is upsetting to you.

It's not upsetting to me, it's just annoying. I strongly support the block early/block often culture that seems to pervade the fediverse, even when that is folks blocking me. I also support the ability to defederate, and strongly support (for example) pre-emptively defederating from threads.

Indeed, such decisions at the user or instance level are potentially messy, but the whole thing just seems self-healing over time to me. There's an equilibrium that needs to be reached, I think, and I doubt we're anywhere near it yet. Some instances are going to end up isolated, either by themselves or by others, and some won't. New instances will spring up, instances will shut down, etc etc. People will move around to find a new instance when needed. It's all really sloppy and the outcome for any one user or instance isn't necessarily going to match the outcome for another. That's freedom to me. And not in some maga "free speech means I get to be a jerk but no one can call me out" way, but in a "we're all empowered to influence our own experience here" way. People can block, instances can defederate, people can deploy their own instance and make it as open or closed or personal or public as they want to. Hot damn.

And all that is going to create friction and people are going to disagree with each other about how to do it and what the right way is, just like we're doing here.

But, despite your very reasonable rationalizations for OP, and regardless of their intent, this very subconversation and others are evidence that this isn't what a discussion about moderation practices looks like. It's what a discussion about publicly calling someone out with a pejorative term for their beliefs looks like. Expressing that opinion, and defending it when required, is the extent of my involvement or concern. I don't share the beliefs of OP nor their target. Whether folks want to change how they are discussing the issue or not is up to them. That's also freedom, in my opinion.

I might migrate instances at some point, I might not, we'll see how things go, but it's not going to be because of this post from OP. Folks can run their instances as they see fit. They don't owe me a platform, nor OP.

OpenStars , 19 days ago

It’s what a discussion about publicly calling someone out with a pejorative term for their beliefs looks like

Tbf, that's b/c that's what you turned it into... I think? You brought it up, hence we are now discussing that. Tbf that is what you saw within the OP to begin with, so I am not saying that the discussion was not worth having. And I did mention that OP might have done a lot better in their wording choices.

However, I am suggesting to look past the format of the OP, to more clearly see its content, even if OP could have made that process a lot easier from the start by having chosen a different name than 'tankie'. Which starts not here but from reading the linked posts too - I know it's A LOT of comments (~800 iirc at last count), but at the very least start with just the top-ranked ones. It's not good. OP presumed that people already knew that, and just in case, gave those exact links so that people could catch up to that, before getting into depth into this post.

They don’t owe me a platform, nor OP.

Oh absolutely 100% agree. The Fediverse is what we make of it, as you said, and we are doing that right now.

So if we are past the poor wording choice, the real issue (imho at least, perhaps OP themselves disagrees) is that those linked posts describe a situation where the admins are using database manipulation to edit the mod logs. Think about what that means. Slightly less but still extremely offensive, those admins are also mass- and preemptively banning people from communities that they have never so much as commented in even once, for a comment made in some other community that said something negative about China. This is not okay. People are not going to put up with this. The former is actually a deceptive practice, and the latter isn't nearly as bad but is still abusive, on the level of Reddit.

These posts calling for defederation of the rest of the Fediverse from Lemmy.ml aren't going to simply disappear, unless those admins step down. Instead, some instances will defederate from them, others will proudly remain federated with everyone, and overall a new equilibrium will be formed, but in the meantime there will be much turmoil.

Read the linked posts - most especially https://lemmy.world/post/16211417. This is not just about OP disagreeing with them politically. They may have worded it to look like that, but that is not all that is going on - it's not even the half of it. THAT post at least is about how modding should be done. And this one seems to have been meant as the next step. Though if you want to make a new post to replace OP's wording choices with your own, it may help? As you say, OP made the mistake of wrapping the real issue inside of an easily-dismissable minor one as if they were one and the same.

Edit: Oh but I should have said: and if you choose not to make such a post, that's fine. At least we are enjoying this conversation about it all:-).

octopus_ink , 19 days ago

At least we are enjoying this conversation about it all:-).

Well you've certainly given me more to think about. I don't see much more to debate with you, but wanted to reply anyway so it didn't appear I was leaving in a huff. Have a good rest of your day.

OpenStars , 19 days ago

Honestly, this kind of kindness, consideration, & compassion from you is what I love about the Fediverse, where we don't all have to agree with one another and in fact it's arguably more fun if we start off not that way, but all along the pathway from start to finish we respect one another (potentially barring some heated moments, hopefully forgivable, and I already don't recall but apologies if I ever did slip into that for a moment). I am told that Reddit used to be this way, before the authoritarian Huffman changed it to become mere "social media" (rather than older forum discussion board style) to increase his profits, but I barely saw it before it was gone, having joined far too late. Therefore I held out hope that I could see this in the Fediverse, which I did, then that was dashed when I encountered chapotraphouse and lemmygrad.ml, restored when I user-blocked them, and now I hope to preserve that for others to be able to enjoy it as well:-).

Fwiw I do see that you were right - this post was about differing political views, but that other post about the moderation abuses... that's some heavier stuff that I am glad you will take time to think about. B/c it is absolutely disrespectful of the admins to the community for them to not follow their own rules, but also b/c I hope to be able to converse with you again on the Fediverse!:-)

And it is complicated - b/c without power, what good is having "rightness" of thought? And yet, the world is what we make of it, so if we all band together and say "this is right, whereas this, this we will not put up with", then our collective might wins out. Speaking of, there is also a chance that Lemmy.ml could lose its grant over such practices, or be barred from the EU. At the very least, I see posts like the OP as providing fair warning that bad things may come in the future, so best start preparing now - e.g. by making communities elsewhere.

And the Federation model is so beautiful, that it seems worth attempting to preserve, by spreading communities out regardless:-).

octopus_ink , 16 days ago

I already don’t recall but apologies if I ever did slip into that for a moment

No apology needed, if anything I'm the one who gets a little terse sometimes.

that’s some heavier stuff that I am glad you will take time to think about. B/c it is absolutely disrespectful of the admins to the community for them to not follow their own rules

Will do!

also b/c I hope to be able to converse with you again on the Fediverse!:-)

And you as well!

I'm sure we'll bump into each other again. Whether I'll still be on this instance or account though? Only time will tell... :)

Cowbee , 20 days ago

Who would "ban" Lemmy.ml? There isn't a "master instance" over all, each instance is an island.

Lemmy.world is currently discussing whether or not to sever ties with Lemmy.ml, just like Literature.cafe alreay did.

Lemmy.world has already defederated from Lemmygrad and Hexbear, the 2 largest Marxist instances, so Lemmy.ml is the last major Marxist-friendly instance that Lemmy.world interacts with.

For clarity, Lemmy.ml is seen very positively by some servers, and negatively by others. You are getting viewpoints largely from Lemmy.world, whereas other communities like db0, Hexbear, Lemmygrad, Blahaj.zone, or otherwise may have different or opposite stances.

That's the beauty and messiness of federation.

teawrecks , 20 days ago

Because the Lemmy user base is still relatively small, so the drama in one corner takes up a nontrivial amount of the total area. If it were the size of reddit or tiktok, you wouldn't pay threads like these any mind.

kilgore_trout , 20 days ago

OP wants to feel like a saviour of us all from tankies.

PrettyFlyForAFatGuy , 20 days ago

Yeah, like linus is a known cunt to work with, i'll still update my kernel regularly though

nickwitha_k , 19 days ago

Not defending his behavior but I would note that he has been actively seeking to remedy his cunty-ness after becoming aware of how problematic it was and the problematic people that it attracted.

eldavi , 19 days ago

i've been on the receiving end of his cunty-ness in person as a lowley tech support minion that he was forced to work with, as well as several other well known pioneers; i can tell through this thread that dessalines is an angel by comparison and i've never met them.

nickwitha_k , 19 days ago

I'd certainly say so. I've yet to see him even coming off as dismissive without trying to clarify why in a polite manner.

rwhitisissle , 20 days ago

It's the Vampire Castle phenomenon of online leftist spaces. One dev and instance admin of Lemmy has problematic personal beliefs, so now we aren't allowed to be on Lemmy anymore because it's failed an ideological purity test that OP decided for the rest of us. In other news, Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia, is a hardcore Ayn Rand style freemarket libertarian, so I guess we should all ditch wikipedia and each buy a 400 pound Encyclopedia Britannica set. Because that'll show him to believe things I think are terrible.

StupidBrotherInLaw , 20 days ago

It's all so melodramatic. I'll take a jaunt into the comments sections of these posts once in awhile to see what the libs are clutching their pearls over now. Today we have:

Oh nooooo, a dev is a ban happy shithead! How unusual and extreme! Better raise the banner and gather the troops, the tankies are coming for us all! We must defederate and/or fork a parallel Lemmy because only tankies have weird ban happy power trips! This will solve all the issues!

On the bright side, block op and the surprisingly small number of the other more vocal tankie drama lords and it gets a lot quieter.

kilgore_trout , 20 days ago

On the bright side, block op and the surprisingly small number of the other more vocal tankie drama lords and it gets a lot quieter.

Getting worked up over a Lemmy instance upholding principles misaligned to yours, while Lemmy constitutes 3% of the Fediverse and the Fetiverse is still unknown to the vast majority, is a pointless waste of energy.

ArmokGoB , 18 days ago

I got a 14 day instance ban for calling a tankie a tankie on ML. Their authoritarian ideology is dangerous and it needs to be quarantined.

rwhitisissle , 18 days ago

You are more than welcome to block any and all content from that instance. You can do this by going under your user settings and clicking on the "Blocks" tab and searching for lemmy.ml in the Block Instance section. That's the thing about Federated content. You have the power to selectively engage with the content of your choosing. You don't get to quarantine others because there is no centralized authority that gets to say "your instance gets stuck in an internet ghetto where it isn't allowed to interact with other users." You have to quarantine yourself by excluding content. If that doesn't work for you, then maybe it's less that you dislike their authoritarian ideology and more that it isn't the same flavor as your own.

ArmokGoB , 18 days ago

I blocked ML months ago. I'm still going to keep calling for large instances to defederate, because sticking my fingers in my ears doesn't make the problem go away.

rwhitisissle , 18 days ago

Yes, that will happen when the "problem" lives solely between your ears.

Iceblade02 , 20 days ago

Yeah, I honestly give very few shits about the political opinions of the lemmy devs as long as it doesn't taint the project itself -and if it did at some point in the future, forking an open-source project is stupidly easy.

I even donate a smidge of money to the development effort via librepay - man does need it to live after all.

Dessalines & Nutomic put a lot of effort into building and maintaining the lemmy codebase. I respect that.

nickwitha_k , 19 days ago

Dessalines & Nutomic put a lot of effort into building and maintaining the lemmy codebase. I respect that.

I'll add that they're also generally quite pleasant when I see them on Lemmy. And I haven't seen either of them involved in being ban-happy. Some will argue otherwise based upon misconstruing the relationship between FLOSS devs and FLOSS consumers as a business/customer relationship (expecting customer service and product manager input on software that's donated free of charge). But, I think that those folks are just not yet familiar with how FLOSS development works.

SolNine , 19 days ago

Here I am... Joined Lemmy.ml because it was supposed to be a security, privacy and FOSS focused community. Now people are probably going to block seeing my comments.

SpaceCadet , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

It's easy enough to switch instances, but which instance you joined is actually far less important than which communities you engage in. Rule of thumb: avoid any ...@lemmy.ml communities. Not because the communities are bad per se, but because the tankies have power there and they don't shy away from banning you from unrelated communities if you say something they don't like.

Ideally nobody who's not a tankie should create or join communities hosted on lemmy.ml anymore.

JackbyDev , 19 days ago

It's easy enough to switch instances,

Yes, but... (And I know this wasn't your main point) We should still try to have instances get along and try to find some common ground. It's still annoying to migrate. If every instance admin was extremely opinionated and it made everyone jump ship between multiple instances it's still annoying.

(Admins are still free to run their instances the way they want to, I'm not saying they necessarily should change.)

SpaceCadet , 19 days ago

We should still try to have instances get along and try to find some common ground

Common ground can only be had with reasonable people you actually have common ground with. Personally I think it's a fool's errand to try to talk sense into the lemmy.ml admins.

The only solution I see is to salvage what we can from the bona fide communities that still reside on lemmy.ml and then put a big fence around it, so can have their toxic waste dump of an instance all to themselves.

It’s still annoying to migrate

I've switched instances three or four times when I was still getting my bearings on lemmy. I didn't really find it annoying. The only tedious part is resubscribing to the communities you were in, but there are tools for that.

joenforcer , 19 days ago

Joined Lemmy.ml because it was supposed to be a security, privacy and FOSS focused community

Yep that's the line the developers put up there to lure people in. It's mildly disingenuous at best. Having to copy a line from a document titled "The Principles of Communism" just to sign up should've tipped you off that something was a bit weird.

Join an instance that has more lax federation standards and subscribe to the ml communities you care about, or get comfortable with defederation and people from other instances discarding your opinions. It's a choice you need to make.

lukecooperatus , 19 days ago

Having to copy a line from a document titled "The Principles of Communism" just to sign up should've tipped you off that something was a bit weird.

Uh what? How is it weird to have a mild anti-bot task in a registration process? That's pretty normal.

If you're objecting to the content in the text, well that's just silly. A communist instance referencing communist writings is not "weird", that'd be entirely within the realm of reasonable expectation.

If you feel so threatened by the mere presence of communism in your bubble, maybe don't try to join an instance by and for them? How dare the dastardly communists be so happy and welcoming to everyone!

joenforcer , 19 days ago

I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of branding your instance to be about privacy and security when tankie-glorified regimes don't respect that at all, and they're instead mildly pushing people in that direction. Why not use something from the EFF pages on those topics? Nice strawman, though.

archomrade , 19 days ago

I don't know that privacy and security are mutually exclusive to communism

SolNine , 17 days ago

Honestly, I joined Lemmy pretty early on... So I have no idea if I even had to type that, if I did, I have no recollection of it.

febra , 17 days ago

Then don't sign up for an account there? I don't see your problem

Linkerbaan , 20 days ago

You should know /politics and /news ban anyone critical of israel and Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.

oce , 20 days ago

Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.

Do you mean people in favor of the existence of a state of Israel (original meaning) which is most of the Western world, so unsurprising, or in favor of the colonization after the 1993 "two states solution" agreement?
If it's the later, do you have proof?

Linkerbaan , 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

Most of the western world does not agree that criticism of israels right to existence is illegal or antisemitic.

The world mods permabanned me for clarifying that israelis are as native to Palestine as the Russians are to Crimea.

“To be fair, Israelis are extremely European. In fact 75 years ago they mostly lived in Europe. They should consider going back. The problem here is that Putin was banned two years ago for war crimes and israel is not while it is committing a massive Genocide.”

= Permaban for Anti Semitism.

oce , 19 days ago

So you confirm you used the original meaning?
Then yes, that's pretty average Western. You wrote it as if it was some extremist position, but it's not, hence my question.

They should consider going back.

There's probably some western countries or political groups that will judge this as being antisemitism because they follow the logic that the existence of Israel is essential to the survival of the Jewish people. This idea was obviously much more consensual after WW2 than today.

Linkerbaan , 18 days ago

There are some groups Zionist lobby like AIPAC that will argue that. I don't care about those groups. They call every and all criticism of israel antismitic.

There was no mention of Judaism and israel is not a Jewish state to begin with. It is a Zionist state.

This is like Hexbears calling negative things about China Sinophobic.

Only Zionists subscribe to the notion that saying israelis are European colonists is "antisemitic". And going as far as to ban a user for it is hardcore Zionism. Thus the /news mods are provably Zionists.

CerealKiller01 , 19 days ago

I'm from Israel, and no one is using "Zionism" in the second meaning.

Zionism is, by definition, support for Israel as a Jewish state.

There are those who say "real Zionism" is supporting settlements in Gaza and the west bank, but there are also those who say "real Zionism" is an Israeli state existing alongside a Palestinian state. That's like a US democrat saying a "true patriot" would support supplying a social safety net for the well-being of all citizens, while a US republican would say a "true patriot" would support a small government that doesn't restrict the will of all citizens.

Personally, I feel that referring to Zionism in general as support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza started as a (partially successful) tactic to de-legitimize the existence of Israel. Not saying everyone who uses the term incorrectly is an antisemitic or whatever, but that's basically where it came from.

octopus_ink , 19 days ago

while a US republican would say a “true patriot” would support a small government that doesn’t restrict the will of all citizens.

I don't think they say this much anymore since all Republican polices are explicitly about restricting the will of their fellow citizens.

Personally, I feel that referring to Zionism in general as support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza

I never used it this way or considered it this way until the past few months. 🤔 Now you'd have a hard time convincing me that it's not what it means.

CerealKiller01 , 18 days ago

I don’t think they say this much anymore since all Republican policies are explicitly about restricting the will of their fellow citizens.

Thant's not really the point, though it does kinda feed into a general issue with the way both out countries (assuming you're from the US) are divided - When was the last time you had an actual talk with a republican in order to understand what he/she thinks?

I never used it this way or considered it this way until the past few months. 🤔 Now you’d have a hard time convincing me that it’s not what it means.

Err... that's just the definition of the word? You can look it up on any dictionary.

We could talk about the current government, it's policy or the opinion of Israelis but saying the entire concept of Zionism equals support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza is not only factually wrong, it collapses the Israel-Palestine issue into a winner-take-all situation, where both sides are encouraged to beat each other in the hopes one of them will give up before both are dead.

octopus_ink , 18 days ago (edited 18 days ago)

When was the last time you had an actual talk with a republican in order to understand what he/she thinks?

Every day until the Pandemic. My republican friends now work in a different office than I do. It's not hard to see the policies and politicians they vote for though, and I can read the handwritten signs in their yards explicitly calling me an idiot, moron, or traitor for having different views than they do. (I see those every day BTW.)

it collapses the Israel-Palestine issue into a winner-take-all situation

I'm just looking at what I've spent the past several months witnessing via news reporting and video clips. I'm not debating what the dictionary says about it. (And in any case, dictionaries reflect usage not prescribe it.)

CerealKiller01 , 18 days ago

Every day until the Pandemic.

Cool, good for you (seriously). Do you honestly think they'll say they're against the freedom of the individual, or is it that you think they're against it? Not saying you're right or wrong, just asking if you're describing what you think they'll say, their own beliefs or the beliefs/consequences of their party. It's an important distinction, especially when trying to engage in dialogue with them.

I’m just looking at what I’ve spent the past several months witnessing via news reporting and video clips.

Maybe I don't follow enough news outside of Israel, but I do read quite a bit and there wasn't anything about Zionism. Could you maybe link to one or two sources?

I’m not debating what the dictionary says about it.

I'm actually not debating at all, right now I'm trying to understand you, and I'm having some difficulties. My best guess is, you seem to have issues against the Israeli army and government (me too, btw), and somehow decided that's Zionism. Zionism is more than a century old, and there are plenty of people who call themselves Zionists, yet don't support all the IDF and the Israeli government did during the past few months (you're talking to one right now, and Biden is another example). Do you think these people are wrong in what their opinions are? That they're lying? That they're not using the correct word, even though that's the same usage as in the dictionary?

fuckingkangaroos , 20 days ago

Known shill Linkerbaan defending Lemmy.ml with a whataboutism. Not very original.

Linkerbaan , 20 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Known shill neoliberal Linkerbaan fuckingkangaroos defending Lemmy.ml world with a whataboutism. adhominems Not very original.

Rhoeri , 20 days ago

Then stop posting there.

Linkerbaan , 20 days ago

I have stopped posting there because... they banned me for posting negative things about israel.

Your same argument can be applied to anyone complaining about .ml by the way.

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

Go find me a post or comment I’ve made in that shithole.

Then come back here and delete your response in humiliation.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

This is not about you this is about the argument you are using.

You could type "then stop posting there" as a reply to OP as well. It solves nothing except to create echo chambers.

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

And I can say the same to you, which I am. Stop posting there if you don’t like it. We’re not talking about OP. We’re talking about you.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

No we're talking about you.

You can stop replying if you don't like it.

Wow your argument is amazing I am winning every debate with this.

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

Is that so? How is this about me? I’d LOVE to see you suss this out.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

It is about you. And you can stop posting underneath here if you don't like it.

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

So I asked, HOW is it about me when this was never about me. What we were talking about was how you don’t have to post in the communities you’re complaining about. And predictably, you tried to use that as a “gotcha.”

Where it only just makes you look like a hypocrite.

So again,

How is this about me?

And regarding your little post edit there, you don’t get to declare yourself the winner. It’s a conversation with a random person on the internet. There isn’t a winner/loser. And the fact that you think there is…

Would make you the loser if there was one.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

I you cannot see how this is about you then scroll up in this thread and if you don't like it don't reply.

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

I think I’d rather try and understand the reasoning as you see it-

When was this ever about me? It’s a simple question to answer?

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Then stop posting there.

If you don't like this is about your comment then stop posting here.

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

Enjoy the day, troll.

beardown , 19 days ago

Are you autistic?

Rhoeri , 19 days ago

You can’t help yourself, can you?

Allero , 20 days ago

This is true.

Also, some other communities straight up ban you for being in any way critical of NATO/US.

Linkerbaan , 20 days ago

Lemmy.world mods just banned returntoozma from /politics for not posting enough postive news about Biden hahaha.

Only Orange Man bad.

nahuse , 19 days ago

I would like to see similar proof of this allegation as exists elsewhere in this thread for .ml communities. Can you substantiate your allegations?

It’s not that I don’t believe you necessarily, it’s that it is completely counter to my own experience, where it seems to be commonly accepted that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and likely genocide.

Can you illustrate any comments that have been deleted/users who have been banned for critique of Israel?

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Sure thing.

This is what got me a banned for "antisemitism" on /news. Because factually stating that israelis are Europeans that colonized Palestine is actually a hate crime against Jews according to the /news mods.

“To be fair, Israelis are extremely European. In fact 75 years ago they mostly lived in Europe. They should consider going back. The problem here is that Putin was banned two years ago for war crimes and israel is not while it is committing a massive Genocide.”

Don't look up Netanyahu's real name that's antisemitic.

I have also been banned multiple times before on those communities for stating the fact that there is zero evidence that Hamas raped anyone on October 7, one of israels biggest lies that has been heavily debunked by now. But this too is not allowed because israeli lies are not allowed to be debunked until at least 6 months years after israel is done using them as propaganda to commit Genocide with.

And returntoozma, a well known poster that frequenntly posts pro-Palestine articles who is not too happy with Joe Biden being complicit in Genocide, just got banned from /politics for too many negative posts about Joe Biden.

nahuse , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Can you tell me the time of your interaction happened so I can look it up in the mod logs, and the thread itself? Your comment seems fairly innocuous to me, and I would certainly be surprised to see that it is viewed as a hate crime.

EDIT: I can’t see that return2ozma was actually banned in the mod log.

Returnoozma posts the same stories over and over again, to as many subs as possible, and with a clear agenda that doesn’t seem to extend much past “Biden is bad.” They have also been called out for it repeatedly by the users there, and I have personally asked them to tone down the reposts. But it’s not as if they have their content constantly removed. It was overwhelming.

If a community asks a user to ease up on posting the same content over and over, with a clear agenda, which seemed to be the case with oozma, then a ban seems appropriate.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Not sure how to link the thread. This should be the comment but it is removed

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6edb9c0c-89ef-4063-9abe-b733dd06b7e5.png

Ozma should have gotten banned for spamming in that case, but the explanation posted publicly on /politics says "posted too many negative things about Biden", not "spamming"

nahuse , 19 days ago

I think that comment removal was out of line, but I don’t think many comments should be removed at all. However it doesn’t look as if you have been banned from any other subs across .world, have you? That’s a large part of the discussion happening here.

I just read the announcement about his ban. It’s strange I couldn’t find it in the mod logs when I looked. However, their explanations are pretty well articulated, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make a user who overwhelms a forum with a clear agenda take a break.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

I was banned from /politics for 30 days for debunking israeli rape propaganda. That ban expired recently. Only worldnews is not in the gripes of Zionist censorship (of the three big news communities.)

They did not ban ozma for spamming but supposedly for propaganda.

nahuse , 19 days ago

I’m not sure what you debunked, but based on our short interaction here you seem to deny that there is any evidence of sexual assault. Which is not true: there’s plenty of evidence, which I have you in another of my responses.

What is true is that some of the reports of rape were untrue. Read the AP news article I linked, where they interview some of the people who actually made those initial reports and reconsidered them.

I think it’s ok to acknowledge that both Hamas and the Israeli government have committed atrocities, and keep doing it. I can condemn both.

Getting back to the point of the OP here, though: there are plenty of examples of Israel being criticized, that have survived moderation.

I don’t know that I agree with the decision to ban ozma, but it does seem like it was at least openly discussed, and it doesn’t appear as if he was also banned from completely unrelated subs for his actions.

Which, again, is a huge crux of the OP that you seem to be avoiding.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

There is no evidence of Hamas raping anyone on October 7 as proven by the UN report. Only oral testimonies of which we have evidence many were fake. All the israel claimed to have turned out to be fake lies.

You have never provided any evidence.

/news and /politics contains far fewer criticism of israel than /worldnews. This is easily observable.

JimSamtanko , 19 days ago

You were banned for misinformation. It’s in the mod logs.

nahuse , 19 days ago

Also, here’s a UN report that may interest you:

“Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council”

https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

Many of the first stories by Israeli first responders have been illustrated to be false, however that doesn’t mean no sexual assaults happened: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

yes the UN which confirms there is zero evidence of rape provided by israel. Consider reading it. The report states that any testimonies do not count as evidence as a UN investigation (which this is not) would have to take place. Israel is blocking the UN rape investigation because of course, there is no evidence of rape.

If legalese is too difficult consider: https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/pramila-pattens-rape-fantasies

nahuse , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/12016983

That’s my comment, where I replied to you, with a source from the United Nations. I’ll highlight the relevant… title of the page… for you:

“Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council”

I also included an APNews article about this very topic, and addresses the ways that disinformation regarding sexual violence in this conflict about. Here’s the headline of that article:

“How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war”

Edit: here is the actual UN report: https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

The report states that any testimonies do not count as evidence as a UN investigation (which this is not) would have to take place. Israel is blocking the UN rape investigation.

AP massively manufactured consent for israel their report is worth nothing as they were spouting those debunked rape lies to begin with.

And it's certainly not 2 accounts.. It's far more.

And the israeli government claimed on BBC that there were survivors of "khamaaas rape" and that they had video, photo and forensic evidence. All which turned out to be lies.

nahuse , 19 days ago

So you did not read anything I’ve sent you?

I’ve edited my previous comment, and included the actual UN report.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Read the first line in my comment again. Israel is blocking the actual UN investigation. Your report specifically states that it is not evidence and cannot be used as evidence.

nahuse , 19 days ago

That Israel has not provided evidence? Maybe, but irrelevant to our conversation.

The UN report itself outlines how sexual violence has occurred in this conflict, right from the start.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Strange because the UN seems to disagree with you. The UN says there is no evidence Hamas raped anyone in this very article:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e898b051-5a6f-49ef-ab84-616977059061.png

nahuse , 19 days ago

What? How does that say anything about what did or did not happen? This is about the mandate of the team, and, as I have been saying, means that there is more investigation needed. Please, highlight for me where the UN says that there is no evidence of rape. I think in this case it might be you who struggles with some of the nuances of legalese.

Over and over again, it says that there "are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of
rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information, which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered."

None of this amounts to "there is no evidence of rape." What this means is that there needs to be more, sustained and explicitly mandated investigation before legal action should take place. This concept, I think, is called due process.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Strange so why would the UN require a real investigation to draw conclusions on rape?

The report has no investigative mandate. It contains the words of a woman named pramilla patten that desperately tried to help israel push rape propaganda but was not able to find any real evidence to do so. She was specifically invited by israel while israel blocked the UN team with an investigative mandate.

nahuse , 19 days ago

Because a wider, better resourced, and long term investigation would be better equipped to collect and analyze evidence? Because a better structured and mandated team would likely have more access, credibility, and ability to undertake that assignment? Because, as the report discusses, it often takes years or decades for crimes committed during armed conflict to come to their conclusion, for myriad of reasons?

Among other statements, here's what the actual UN report actually said about just this: "As in other conflict-affected contexts, there
remains a significant likelihood that the findings of the mission team, in terms of verified violations, only partially reflect the crimes actually committed. A more comprehensive assessment of the occurrence of conflict-related sexual violence in the context of the 7 October attacks would require a fully-fledged investigation by competent bodies with adequate time and capacity." (Page 15, section C, subsection 56).

Over and over again this report says that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred" on that day, in various settings. I'm not sure why you think that this amounts to "rape definitely did not happen."

And, since your counterargument rests on the idea that Pramilla Patten is just "a woman," I think you should think about who and what she is: a legal expert, practicing lawyer, and judge who has been investigating gender-based violence for more than 20 years, and specifically sexual violence in conflict settings since 2017.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Yes you are right it repeats the "reasonable grounds" thing over and over and then undoes it by saying "lol we don't actually have an investigative mandate and this report cannot draw conclusions. Our witnesses and evidence and not mentioned trust me bro but also you can't trust me."

Very contradictory. You'd almost think that she is writing propaganda for israel here. And was specifically invited by israel to write propaganda.

Tell me again, why is israel blocking the actual UN investigation team that wants to investigate?

Consider reading the Finkelstein post again if you're having trouble with the deceiving legalise from Pattens report.

nahuse , 19 days ago

Yes you are right it repeats the “reasonable grounds” thing over and over and then undoes it by saying “lol we don’t actually have an investigative mandate and this report cannot draw conclusions. Our witnesses and evidence and not mentioned trust me bro but also you can’t trust me.

Doesn't say they can't draw conclusions, only that the conclusions they draw do not have the same legal weight as other possible legal instruments. You're also conflating their mandate and the evidence they collected; they don't have a mandate sufficient to complete the investigation, but that has nothing to do with the evidence they did collect. Which says, in no uncertain terms, that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that sexual violence occurred. Let me be clear, again: NONE OF THAT MEANS THE UN HAS FOUND ZERO EVIDENCE OF RAPE ON OCTOBER 7TH.

Very contradictory. You’d almost think that she is writing propaganda for israel here. And was specifically invited by israel to write propaganda.

I'm sure Israel does want these crimes to be exposed. I'm also sure that the present government of Israel is a bad actor and is doing everything it can to subvert any critique against itself, while maximizing messaging critical of Hamas (and also minimizing any reports of its crimes).

Tell me again, why is israel blocking the actual UN investigation team that wants to investigate?

Because the government of Israel sucks, and any intensive investigation would certainly recover even more evidence of the various war crimes it has committed, which obviously amount to a lot more death and destruction than anything that happened on October 7th.

Consider reading the Finkelstein post again if you’re having trouble with the deceiving legalise from Pattens report.

Thanks, I have an advanced degree in international affairs, so I was trained by actual subject matter experts on how this stuff works. Dr. Finkelstein is not an expert in international law, which is why some of his critiques fall short, in my view, and explains why you don't seem to understand that just because a team does not enjoy a robust enough mandate that doesn't mean they don't collect evidence. It just means they don't have the proper mandate to collect all the evidence, and certainly not sufficient authority to make conclusions beyond certain evidentiary standards.

I'd also remind you that the UN is an intergovernmental organization, and with a few very notable exceptions, no UN entity can operate outside the restrictions that a host country places on it.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Yes the visit it has nothing to do with all of the NYT, AP, Guardian Reuters and other propaganda repurts being fully debunked and israel needing new ammunition to keep the rape lies alive

It is a sad state of affairs that someone with a degree in legalise is fully unable to read and comprehend anything said in reports. You should consider asking your university for a refund.

Then again, when I debunked the original NYT propaganda piece that everyone now admits is a massive hoax, another lemming told me they had a journallist degree and I should learn some media literacy because "The New York Times does the highest quality objective reporting"

I will end this conversation with a video of the woman you adore so much admitting herself that you are wrong

nahuse , 19 days ago

Yes the visit it has nothing to do with all of the NYT, AP, Guardian Reuters and other propaganda repurts being fully debunked and israel needing new ammunition to keep the rape lies alive

What? this doesn't seem like a statement that is relevant to our conversation, which is about whether sexual violence occurred on October 7th.

It is a sad state of affairs that someone with a degree in legalise is fully unable to read and comprehend anything said in reports. You should consider asking your university for a refund.

lol, I'll send a letter and see. I'd love for you to illustrate where my reading comprehension is bad, though. I just keep on waiting for you to prove your points, I guess.

Yikes, man. It's absolutely unreal to me that you are just blanket denying that there is any possibility that sexual violence occurred on a day where 1,200 people were murdered and thousands more injured by a decentralized group of combatants, many of whom don't believe that Israelis are real people. It does not do any credit to your argument that you are so vehemently opposed to accepting the possibility members of an armed group that perpetrated horrific acts against unarmed civilians across a wide period of time and space may have also raped people.

I watched the video. Seriously, where the fuck does it say anything about rapes not happening? Honestly, you keep saying this thing, and presenting evidence, but literally nothing you are showing me says what you're saying it says. Every single source you have posted says that that there is evidence of sex crimes. Every single one, including that video. Just saying a source proves your point doesn't mean that the source, yanno, proves your point.

some_guy , 19 days ago

I agree that the Oct 7 rape charges are bullshit, but you're misrepresenting the image you posted: it says there was no investigation and that one would be due to draw any conclusions.

Linkerbaan , 18 days ago (edited 17 days ago)

There was no investigation. That would require an investigative mandate.

It is insane that anyone would believe witnesses provided by the israeli government after a track record of like 10 previous witnesses provided by the israeli government that were proven to be lying.

some_guy , 18 days ago

What's truly insane is how you're getting downvoted when Israel's claims have been repeatedly disproven or simply never substantiated.

Linkerbaan , 17 days ago

These people are completely brainwashed. Israeli lies can be debunked 10 times. They spout an 11th lie without evidence and the cult of liberals holds it up like the Bible

nahuse , 19 days ago

The AP has been targeted by Israel for its coverage of the conflict.

In that article they interview the people who initially reported some of these cases of rape, and illustrate how and why they were wrong. It doesn’t say anywhere that there are no other erroneous reports of rape.

The UN report, which I’ve linked elsewhere, illustrates the evidence and methodology, and makes the convincing argument that sexual assault likely occurred in the context of Oct 7. It’s in plain English.

Linkerbaan , 19 days ago

Once again https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/pramila-pattens-rape-fantasies

Consider reading that instead of replying to me. It debunks everything you said about the UN report 5 times over.

I have read the UN report. You have not.

nahuse , 19 days ago

I've read the report, and it states over and over again that there is credible evidence of assaults, and stipulates how it went about its business.

I'm working through Dr. Finkelstein's arguments. All I can see he does is cast doubt on the evidence that was collected and the mission's mandate. None of this amounts to "there is no evidence that there was any rape." It just means that there is evidence for more investigation.

SpaceCadet , 19 days ago

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/70a4700c-aff6-497e-8b2c-ad31dd4dae79.png

Facebones , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Here's an idea, block .ml and SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY.

It feels like 30% of all Lemmy use is capitalists whining that they don't have a central anti leftist authority to block everyone they don't like, by linking the same two fucking posts from over at least 1 year ago or posts where they "argue" by shouting "fuck you Tankie" and it didn't go their way.

If you don't like how its run, leave. THATS THE WHOLE POINT. If you want a central authority thats gonna be strongly pro-capital, go back to Reddit. Either way:

SHUT. THE FUCK. UP.

Rin , 19 days ago

Most activity is on .ml

Facebones , 19 days ago

And will continue to be until people shut the fuck up and populate other instances instead of trying to bully the people who built the damned thing off their own instance.

(This isn't directed at you) -
If lemmy.ml hosts most activity, and continues to host most activity, despite your claims that nobody can have a differing opinion from 2 or 3 people without being banned, and is continuing to grow and host more of the activity.........The problem isn't the people who built the software or admin the server, maybe the problem is you.

ipkpjersi , 19 days ago

In my defense, I use .ml because it tends to have the best stability/uptime. I think I was using .world before, and it was down for like 3 days straight at one point so I stopped using it and started using .ml more.

With that said, I think blocking entire instances is kind of extreme unless it's very warranted. With that said, I appreciate the ability to move between instances as necessary, or even host your own. That's one way Lemmy will always be better than alternatives like Reddit.

Facebones , 18 days ago

I think blocking entire instances is inevitable, but the choices various instance owners make in doing so will help shape where the chips fall in the long run in terms of where people end up settling in - someone with leftist tendencies won't want to set up shop on an instance that defeds all the leftist instances, for example.

A lot of people call for outright defederation because they came from reddit so they want that more singular level of authority/moderation. Whereas (purely hypothetical, haven't been on reddit in a long gkme) a pro Palestinian sub could be banned because reddit took a pro - Israel stance, on Lemmy if .world bans my community I can take it to
Ml, and they HATE that.

drmoose , 19 days ago

your tantrum is much more cringe than any complain post I've ever seen lmao

Facebones , 18 days ago

See above advice ^

Shut the fuck up

jabjoe , 18 days ago (edited 18 days ago)

I'm watching with interest what happens here. I left Reddit before for Voat for a while. It turned out that without policing (or maybe it was the type of policing) it turned into a toxic cesspit.

Policing of some kind is clearly import to human groups. In the real world, across the world and history, where is no law and order, you end up with war lords and drug lords, who setup their own rules. Take moderation away and online groups get consumed by trolls.

So I'm watching what happens with federated Lemmy with interest.

Facebones , 18 days ago

I'm not familiar with Voat. I'm not sure how it'd apply to something like Lemmy (probably fall on instance owners I guess) but the problem every "ultimate free speech TM" platform runs into is that laws exist and certain things are just illegal. 🤷

The most notable thing about people who complain this loudly about moderation that doesn't skew their way, is that they dont want LESS moderation - They want moderation that skews to their viewpoints. They complain about being banned on ml for saying "fuck you tankie" or other dismissive nonsense, but if you visit THEIR spaces and politely disagree and provide sources you'll get banned quicker than anyone here but none of them cry about free speech when it happens on their turf.

jabjoe , 18 days ago

See that's not my experience of the problem. They aren't being polite. They are out right hostile. Staying calm, providing trusted source references, and remaining polite, just seams to enrage they further. They seam to want to have a slagging match, which is of no interest to me as I'm not 12.

Facebones , 18 days ago

I'm open to to the fact that (like basically anything) it DOES happen at some point, somewhere. The problem with taking the people complaining that its this big systemic push to purge them seriously is even the examples THEY give usually show themselves just being twats.

Also, as many people love screaming at me about "receipts," if you're getting banned left and right just for sharing a source and you're so enraged that you're taking up arms, where's the modlog entries?

Then, if it IS being mad that they're being moderated for getting shitty and acting like a cunt - could I go into their house and start pissing all over whatever they're about? Conservative spaces LOVE hyper moderation when it aligns with them, as I mentioned previously go find an instance that aligns with your shtick - that's the whole Lemmy thing.

jabjoe , 17 days ago

I'm not giving you what I regard as my instances because I think that is combative. I don't want combat, that's the whole thing. I'm not really pro or anti this defederation, but I can see the problem and I'm interested in how it plays out. In it becomes a place of combat rather than debate, I'm simply leave. If there is no news or anyone to talk to, I will also leave.

If there is coordinated defederation, maybe it'll give mods of the troll infested instances pause for thought, and make them clean house. Or not, and Lemmy bumbles along without ever hitting mainstream, until something else comes along. Maybe central instances set the tone of the whole thing, and here this is a mortal wound.

It's an interesting "natural experiment".

hark , 19 days ago

YSK: There are countless posts by "concerned" users shrieking about tankies. What is the point of these "informational" posts? Looking to stamp out opinions you don't like so you can turn the fediverse into astroturfed-to-hell-and-back reddit 2.0?

jabjoe , 18 days ago

If Lemmy turns into a toxic cesspit, like Voat did, anyone remotely normal will leave to avoid the toxicity.

VictoriaAScharleau , 18 days ago

voat tolerates Nazis. that's not what's happening here. it's actually the opposite: fascist propaganda is being spotted and removed, and the people spreading it whine

jabjoe , 18 days ago (edited 18 days ago)

So 'Tankies' are the ones fighting Nazis? There doesn't seam much between the two to be honest.

xor , 18 days ago

Okay but this isn't "oh no, there are tankies around", it's the admin of one of the largest Lemmy instances systematically suppressing information about massacres and genocide.

There's quite a big gap between banning "opinions you don't like" and defederating from a systemically auth-left instance, in the same way that defederating from an auth-right instance would be a no-brainer.

hark , 18 days ago

There is a big gap between auth-left and auth-right thought. Auth-right thought imposes violence as an inherent part of the ideology because it promotes the idea of racial supremacy, they have to actively commit violence to achieve their goals. Auth-left uses violence on perceived threats to their order, not based on features people are born with. I do not agree with China's actions on Tiananmen Square or their treatment of Uyghurs, but these two things are definitely used by the US as a fulcrum to attack China.

Do you not find it odd how much importance is placed on Tiananmen Square after all these decades? Do you not find it odd how hard the US hammers the point of the Uyghur genocide while at the same time fully funding and supporting the genocide of Palestinians? The tactic is to flood communication channels with propaganda to achieve domination over the narrative and this is the sort of thing we're seeing here with countless posts about tankies. Why are we supposed to take American narratives as gospel to shut down opposing narratives?

xor , 18 days ago

Bold to go with the pro-auth-left take

I'm just going to ignore the long responses to stuff I didn't claim in the first place

hark , 18 days ago

Thanks for admitting you have no response and instead rely on a thought-terminating cliché.

moon , 18 days ago

Who gives a fuck

dan , 19 days ago

Do you know the political views of the developers of every piece of software you use? Why is Lemmy different?

Dearth , 19 days ago

Seriously

volodya_ilich , 19 days ago

Because anti-communists will bicker about every single thing they've been taught not to like about communism and remain quiet in terms of criticism to the current system

TangledHyphae , 19 days ago

Seems more "anti-authoritarian-communism" than anything.

volodya_ilich , 19 days ago

It's cool to be an anti-authoritarian communist. It's not cool to spend half of your breathing time to talking shit about past leftist projects which were by all metrics less evil than capitalist ones.

oce , 19 days ago

Because it's not just any political view, tankism is part of the ideologies that support regimes which unmistakably restrict the freedom of speech. This could be an issue for an internet forum.
It's actually not different from having a right wing billionaire buying a social media. It's very much the same thing, and most people on the fediverse are there to avoid this kind of political influences on the platform.

dan , 18 days ago

It's actually not different from having a right wing billionaire buying a social media.

The difference with X/Twitter is that if you want to use it, you're stuck with Elon Musk and the types of people that still use it.

With Lemmy, you can join an instance that has values you agree with, or even run your own instance and defederate/block any instances or people you don't want to see. You're not forced to see any particular communities or people.

redprog , 18 days ago

I am employed as a Software Engineer in the real estate sector. I'm also a commie. Many ultracapitalist assholes are using my software and they have no idea about my political views. I'm sure there are a lot more of us than one would normally think. It's just that most of us are tired of having the same discussions with the same arguments over and over and over and over again, so we just don't out ourselves 99% of the time :)

Audacious , 18 days ago

It's the radical moderators and developers of Lemmy that censor and delete posts and comments that fit their narrative. They are trying to foster authoritarian views and perpetuating lies (like tiananmen square didn't happen, or Ukraine invaded russia). It's a big mess that causes problems when people voice opposing views or even sourced material and get censored and banned. Using Lemmy feels like we have to accept their cooked views. I'm hoping there will be a fork or new federation project that doesn't have baggage. Many moved here because of the reddit bs, and now there is extreme communism baggage.

dan , 18 days ago

It's the radical moderators and developers of Lemmy that censor and delete posts and comments that fit their narrative.

The entire point of Lemmy and other decentralized and federated systems is that no one entity is in control of it. It's not like a site like Reddit where the whole thing is controlled by one company.

They can only delete posts and comments from servers they're moderators of. That's probably just a few servers out of the thousands that exist. Nobody's forcing any user to use those servers. If you don't like the moderation on one server just move to a different one.

I'm hoping there will be a fork or new federation project that doesn't have baggage.

Why fork it if the software works well as-is?

You can run your own Lemmy server and defederate from every other server if you want to, or only federated with a few hand-picked servers.