Stop being elitist, spread Linux!

Linux needs to grow. Stop telling people it's 'tech-y' or acting like you're more advanced for using it, you are scaring away people. Linux Mint can be used by a senile person perfectly.

Explain shortly the benefits, 'faster, more secure, easier to use, main choices of professionals and free'. Ask questions that let you know if they need to dual boot, 'do you use Adobe, anti-cheat games, or Microsoft Office', 'how new is your computer', 'do you use a Mac'.

And most importantly, offer to help them install.

They don't understand the concept of distros, just suggest Linux Mint LTS Cinnamon unless they're curious.

That's it, spread Linux to as many people as possible. The larger the marketshare, the better support we ALL get. We can fight enshittification. Take the time to spread it but don't force it on anyone.

AND STOP SCARING PEOPLE AWAY.
Linux has no advertising money, it's up to us.

Offer family members or friends your help or copy and paste the below

how to install linux: 1) copy down your windows product key 2) backup your files to a harddrive 3) install the linux mint cinnamon iso from the linux mint website 4) use etcher (download from its website) to put the iso on a usb flash drive 5) go into bios 6) boot from the usb 7) erase the storage and install 8) press update all in the update manager 9) celebrate. it takes 15 minutes.

edit:
LET ME RE-STATE, DO NOT FORCE IT ON ANYONE.

and if someone is at the level of ignorance (not in a derogatory fashion) that they dont know what a file even is genuinely dont bother unless theyre your parents cause youll be tech support for their 'how do i install the internet' questions.

skullgiver , (edited )
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

An XKCD comic about two scientists overestimating what normal people know abojt their field of study (https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/average_familiarity_2x.png)

Here's your step-by-step plan from a regular old user, as I've learned to know them:

  1. Windows keys are tied to hardware and accounts these days.

  2. This presumes the availability of an external hard drive. Also knowing how to make a backup. Or what you mean by "files".

  3. What's an ISO? How does one install it? Double clicking it opens a weird folder.

  4. I just put the ISO on my external drive and now my backup is gone what happened?

  5. What in the world is a bios?

  6. All I see is a screen called "Lenovo". My mouse acts funny. What buttons do I click?

  7. What the heck, my backup is gone again!

  8. The installer for Photoshop won't run and I can't seem to get Onedrive to install either. How do I download the internet? All I see is Firefox but I use Google for the internet. Hang on, I can't log into my email now, it's asking me for a password. What's my password?

  9. I turned it off but I can't get Windows to come back. How do I make Windows come back? Are my emails gone?

That said, there is actually a very nice Linux distro out there with step-by-step instructions and a video guide, it's called ChromeOS Flex and it'll work wonderfully to speed up old laptops.

BaldProphet ,

shared XKCD about experts overestimating laypeople's knowledge of their field

Double clicking it opens a weird folder.
I just put the ISO on my external drive and now my backup is gone what happened?

Proceeds to assume laypeople have backups

ares35 ,

i was called into one office where they bought a backup external, like someone told them to previously. they took it out of the box, set it on the tower. and i guess, that was that. the magic box would now have backups of everything they did.

five years later, i got to tell them that there's nothing on it.

the pc was never configured to run a backup of any kind. hell, the drive was never connected to the pc.

so no backups of their documents, their spreadsheets, their mailing lists, their email, or their quickbooks (that part, they at least ran manual backups of, when prompted by the software, to a flash drive).

psud ,

I bet that company hires lawyers for law technical stuff.

ares35 ,

it's a church office, jesus does the legal shit.. and apparently the pc backups, too.

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

Every step, I'm discounting the users that gave up the step before.

Obviously, most normal users just say "no" to the suggestion of Linux because they don't know what a Linux is and have no interest in buying anything else.

Corgana ,
@Corgana@startrek.website avatar

haha right! Most people don't even understand that MacOS is a thing on it's own, they just think it's a Mac. They have never needed to make the distinction between software and hardware. If you were to suggest they "change to Linux", they won't have any frame of reference for what this means. Heck, most people still call Android phones "droids", or if they know anything, "Pixels" and "Samsungs" without knowing that "Android" is it's own thing. Macbooks have USB-C now but few users know that you can use an Apple charger to charge anything USB-C.
It's like back in the 90s you would frequently hear people not making the distinction between "monitor" and "computer".

Don't get me wrong, I think consumer education is the only plausible way out of this proprietary mess, but the further society moves away from PCs having discrete interchangeable components the harder concepts like "operating system" are going to be to understand for anyone not specifically seeking out that knowledge.

BaldProphet ,

Absolutely right. And it blows my mind that at this point people are getting less technologically literate, not more. Job security for us IT guys, I guess.

psud ,

It's not all that bad. I'm sure there are as many youth keen to learn computers and they have easy access to all the tools they need to develop knowledge and skill

It's just as we have become more knowledgeable, more capable, the difference between us and the normal people seems incredible.

But put us in an area needing different specialist knowledge and we'll struggle like they do with computer technical stuff

We speak jargon. They don't know the words, or if they do they use them wrong.

Also it sucks for us in IT work; when you are in an agile team and the manager two levels up doesn't understand agile they do things like break up high performing teams (mine had been a team for four years - from the day the organisation decided to test agile) to share the people around so they can teach the others how to be high performing

Had they read anything about agile, they would know that longevity of a team is a good predictor for performances — but they wouldn't read about agile, it's an IT technical thing

BaldProphet ,

I mean, two whole generations are growing up without using regular computers until they enter the workforce or go to college. When I was in highschool, I was told that the generations after me would mostly be more technologically literate than anyone was at the time, but with smartphones and ChromeOS it seems that the time to learn how to use a personal computer now begins far later than it was for us millennials.

There are so many basic things about using a computer that it is no longer to expect a high school graduate to know, such as how to use a printer (or what a printer even is), how to reboot a computer, what a browser is, etc.

jackpot OP ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

education is so important

pixelscript ,

step 2 of this process involves making a backup. whether they understand how they did so or not.

backhdlp ,
@backhdlp@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

reminds me of !windows_help

jackpot OP ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

gosh

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

Honestly these people shouldn't use computers if they can't be bothered to learn the bare minimum ngl.

Or we need to improve IT classes and courses

SnotFlickerman ,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Honestly these people shouldn’t use computers if they can’t be bothered to learn the bare minimum ngl.

You need a license to drive a car, and to get the license you have to pass a test to prove you know the basics of motor vehicle operation and the "rules of the road."

I really don't see why we couldn't/shouldn't apply the same logic to computer hardware.

CaptDust ,

I really don't see why we couldn't/shouldn't apply the same logic to computer hardware.

Uh because innocent people don't die if a user doesn't know how to install an OS?

EuroNutellaMan , (edited )
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

In some contexts having people who don't know what files are, what a folder is, and some other basics, do lead to people dying or lots of damage done.

Of course you'd expect people in these contexts to be trained but that's not always the case.

Also having no idea what a file is and not knowing the bare minimum of how a computer works in this day and age is unacceptable. It should be taught properly in schools (instead of teaching some very specific stuff everyone will forget, like what a bus is, and then jump to what excel is and how to use it, like they did in my IT class back in high school)

CaptDust ,

Don't get me wrong I'm very pro-tech literacy and education, especially with the tablet generation users that are becoming more abstracted from the system plumbing... but requiring licenses to use a computer?? Lol. If it's that important to the job, employer should provide training just like any other piece of equipment.

I'm not going to expect doctors to know how to get into a bios or cleanup a corrupted file system, they specialized in human biology - keep them focused on that, and I'll handle the OS management.

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

I don't expect anyone to know how to install an OS either, that's not the basics. But I do expect everyone to know what a file is, what file extensions are and what a directory/folder is.

gianni ,
@gianni@lemmy.ca avatar

Why? Those are just abstractions. Why do you get to decide at which level of abstraction is the baseline for a person to use a computer?

Especially considering most computer users are operating at a higher level of abstraction (i.e. phones/tablets).

You are not the average computer user anymore.

EuroNutellaMan , (edited )
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

Especially considering most computer users are operating at a higher level of abstraction (i.e. phones/tablets).

I don't consider them computer users because they aren't using a computer (yes I know they're small computers but they operate in a different way).

If they want to use a personal computer, the thing with folders and stuff, they should learn how to use that, otherwise, if they don't want to learn, they probably are better off not using a computer and use something else instead, like the aforementioned phone. If they absolutely need to use a computer, then they should (in absence of training or teaching at school) at the very least try and figure out how they can and should interact with this tool that costed you a couple hundred €s.

I never was the average user, even when I considered myself a dumbass who knows absolutely nothing about how to use a computer I was still considered a tech genius by people around me simply because I knew how to download something like a minecraft mod and navigate some folders to move said mod in the correct folder or simply install programs, while most other people around me couldn't even tell the difference between the browsers and the file explorer.

Kecessa ,

You realise there are people that are over 80 that only have a computer so they can check pictures of their grandkids on Facebook and that's it?

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

yes, I do, but that's not representative of the majority of the population.

Kecessa ,

So it's unacceptable for them to have a computer?

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

Yes it is unacceptable but less relevant.

I've encountered millenials who struggle with the simple concept that you can copy a file and paste it in a different directory. Zoomers my age who don't know what a file manager is. And more.

Not everyone, not even close to being a majority in fact, is an 80 year old that is completely incapable of learning basic concept. People must know the very basics of how to use their most important and omnipresent tool, such as what is a file explorer, what do we mean by file extensions, what is a file, directories, how to organize them, copy files elsewhere, why do we sometimes need to use admin privileges (and why it's dangerous), etc.

Kecessa ,

OP: Stop being elitists!

You: Just watch me!

EuroNutellaMan , (edited )
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

Wanting people to know the instruments they're using ≠ elitism

Everyone should be able to use Linux but that ain't happening if you don't teach them the basics of how to use a computer.

Kecessa ,

Saying it's unacceptable that someone uses a tool without having interest in knowing the way it works outside of their limited usage fucking is elitism though!

I sure hope you know how to change the transmission in your car or have the tools to replace the bottom bracket on your bike or that you know how to replace an intake valve on your washing machine because it's unacceptable for your to own these things and used them if you don't! Heck, you must live somewhere, do you know how to build a house and maintain everything that can go wrong with one?

EuroNutellaMan , (edited )
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

I'm not saying people should understand the inner workings. I'm saying they should understand how to use it or at least want to learn. I'm talking copy-pasting files, navigating folders, reading instructions, that sort of stuff. Read my comments before assuming my argument.

In your analogy it would be knowing how to use the steering wheel and the brakes and the basic rules of how to drive, and I sure as shit hope you know how to use them before you're allowed into the streets in your car.

It's like giving a book to a person who doesn't know how to read and refuses to learn how to read. They don't want to read, then they probably shouldn't have a book. They need the book for whatever reason? Then they must be taught how to read.

Kecessa ,

But they know how to use it in accordance with their needs, you're just mad that they don't use it to do the shit that you feel is adequate, that's elitist as fuck.

EuroNutellaMan , (edited )
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

But they know how to use it in accordance with their needs

Until they have to ask me or tech support how to run something as administrator when they need to do something different for whatever reason. I worked with people in a lab, we do research on a lot of environmental and biological stuff, we sometimes use some quite advanced software, yet some of these people struggle with the most basic operations and they give up as soon as something isn't working, with the logic "I can't understand this so why bother". I'm talking even the installation (on windows) of new programs. And these people have to use WSL to run terminal commands for software made specifically for Linux, you'd expect them to at least understand a bit of the basics, but nope, it's seen as normal and/or a funny quirk to be illiterate instead of being trained on how to use a computer, at the end of my time there I managed to convert one to the Linux camp (the others want to switch when they get new computers) and he's well on his way to become the guy who will have to help someone run a program as admin or some other silly shit, and I hope eventually more of them will become literate, but it shouldn't have needed me or someone else being there for these people to comprehend computer basics, they should've been trained at the job or taught that in school.

There is no reason to not teach these people the very basics. Everyone will need to know what a file is and how to navigate folders at some point, or admin privileges, or some very basic troubleshooting, they should learn that even if maybe they're only gonna use it twice. It is certainly more useful than knowing what drivers, buses, etc are (yes, this is what they taught us in basic IT class to people not doing IT). Otherwise, if they don't want to learn that then a computer is likely not the tool for them.

If we want everyone to be able to use Linux or computers in general, we need everyone to learn how to use their tool. Without this you'll get a billion phone calls for any small problems by people who don't understand something basic, don't want to learn or look up how to solve a problem they think is impossibly hard, and eventually these people will get angry and leave in frustration. Linux is very much an operating system that can work for everyone, even a dumbass like myself or my old grandpas and grandmas, but if we want people who use windows/mac to switch to it we first need to teach them the basics. It is then of my opinion that the people who can't grasp the basics of how to interact with their computer and refuse to learn (this part is important) should use something else instead altogether.

Kecessa ,

I never talked about people switching to Linux as I couldn't care less about that (the closest of am from running Linux is owning an rpi for pihole, all 5 other computers in my house are on W11 and my interest to switch is zero because I'm computer literate enough that I know I don't want to make my life complicated just to be a contrarian) or people that use computers for work.

If you're angry that you have to offer support to people when you work in IT you should change field. You're like a mechanic that's angry they get clients to do something basic like changing wipers, either teach the person or do it for them, that's what you're paid for, if everyone knew how to do all the stuff you're helping them with you would be out of a job.

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

you work in IT

I don't work in IT, I have even said I studied in a field that has nothing to do with IT. I simply happen to know how to do basic stuff and therefore illiterate people think I'm some sort of tech genius (I am not).

IT people also won't be out of a job if people knew how to right click something.

Kecessa ,

Well I've got bad news for you, training and helping people is part of my job, I teach them and help them do their daily tasks and the same people ask me the same questions over and over again.

You say "they need to know even if they'll use it once or twice"? Well they will have forgotten when that happens because they don't use it often enough to remember and computers aren't something they're interested in in the first place. The computer is their gateway to the internet, just like a car is someone's way to get to work, the intricacies of how it works and how to do things that are unrelated to these tasks can be taught to them, they will not absorb the information.

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

that's a them problem. Doesn't mean we shouldn't teach people these skills. And I reiterate that these people should probably use something else that works better for them, not a computer then.

yianiris ,
@yianiris@kafeneio.social avatar

BSA ITA French/Swiss PF30 octa/isis I do them all.

I switched gearbox and driveshaft on a heavy van stuck on 20' incline 5m away from a wall. Early 70s Dodge. Scary getting under there.

I use runit and/or s6 as init and service supevisor, no logind, no dbus, just a window manager. I have one disguised as MSwin, my friend hasn't noticed in 7y it is not MSw. She says it is as good now as it was the day I installed it.

@Kecessa @EuroNutellaMan

Kecessa ,

Ok and you pinky swear that you never use anything that you don't know how it works and couldn't care less?

And you expect everyone to act the same way or you can accept that people have other things to do? I wouldn't blame a carpenter for not caring to know how their computer works if all the do is go on the internet, I would still want them to build my house before an IT that has an interest in home renovations!

SnotFlickerman ,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Tell that to the guy whose son was so influenced by grifters online that he cut off his dad's head.

Oh wait you can't because he's dead.

No, using the internet while being an idiot has literally lead to murder.

IronKrill ,

Should require a license to go outside or read a book too, they might meet a dangerous group of people or read something that influences them.

Kecessa ,

He just needed the TV to turn this way, should were require a college degree to be allowed to have a TV?

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

I do agree, to some extent, and the EU has had their EU digital drivers' license program for ages now. If you finish the courses and score well on the test, you get a certificate that says you can do all the required parts of normal computer operation. That includes creating folders, managing files, doing basic word processing/spreadsheets/email, and a few basic concepts such as "what is a task bar". How much you need to know depends on the level of skill you're trying to prove, but I can tell you that none of them involve installing Linux.

Unfortunately, in offices "being bad at computers" is a funny character quirk and not a reason to send someone on training, but in theory there is exactly such a piece of paper.

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

The bare minimum is "I need to be able to send out a CV, file my taxes, and look up the weather". It used to be "configure DMA and IRQ channels so your sound card and hard drive don't conflict" but thank fuck we're past that stage.

I'm not teaching my parents the intermediate steps of installing Linux because none of those skills are valuable to them and what they use their computers for. I'll answer their questions if they ask, but normal people don't go into BIOSes, don't deal with ISO files, and these days I doubt most still use physical backups now that OneDrive and iCloud have been integrated so well.

EuroNutellaMan ,
@EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world avatar

I was thinking more "navigate to a file" type stuff. Understanding what admin privileges are, copying and pasting, stuff like this.

Often times when I needed to help a non-tech savvy person solve an issue on any OS it is some really dumb problem like them not knowing how to run some program as admin (no idea why they want to run a graph software that needs admin privileges to this day), opening the file manager, navigating to a folder to paste a file to it, or simply reading the popup instead of panicking.

At no point have I said going into a BIOS is basic knowledge. But if the people you're dealing with struggle with the most basic shit ever then you're not even gonna get to the BIOS part, and if they aren't willing to learn how to use a computer then they probably shouldn't use a computer.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Don’t support anything Google touches.

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

Google is the fifth contributor to the Linux kernel, both in terms of change sets and lines changed, doing about 6-7% of the work. It's very hard not to use anything Google touches, though I suppose you could use macOS, Windows, and one of the *BSDs unless they contribute to that as well.

I would love for a ChromeOS Flex competitor to show up, but it's the only Linux distro I would put on someone else's PC if I'm not available for tech support 24/7.

monsterpiece42 ,

I work in a decent-sized computer repair shop and this is a very accurate representation of what the average user knows.

Just in case anyone thinks this is over the top.

skullgiver ,
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

To be fair to some of them, I did assume users knew where to look for their backups on an external drive, which is already a bridge too far for most. I included backups because of the steps mentioned in the opening post, but realistically, "backups" means "Microsoft Onedrive".

And I haven't even mentioned the scary, confusing breed of people that store their most important files in the Recycling Bin. These people exist, are important business people, responsible for millions, and will blame you if their files are magically gone one day.

psud ,

I'm fortnightly* helping some friends upgrade from win7 to more modern windows. They're smart people, one's an accountant, the other a school librarian. But since neither of their professions nor their hobbies are computer technical they need help

They're currently at the step "ring Microsoft to troubleshoot the licence"

*They host the d&d game

psud ,

https://xkcd.com/2501/

https://m.xkcd.com/2501/

conciselyverbose ,

If you're actually expecting people to transition without asking for help on a regular basis, you don't know people.

You just made yourself their IT guy for life.

krolden ,

This

hendrik , (edited )

And I think there isn't a good solution to this. Ideally you would enable people to make good choices for themselves, know how to handle the tools they use...

Interesingly enough they come to me to fix their printer and antivirus anyways, and I have no idea of what I'm doing since I haven't used Windows in like 15 years, except for updating my GPS and filling out time-sheets for work and stuff like that. And in the meantime Microsoft switches things around every few years and bolts on a new interface onto their office suite and then moves it to the cloud. I don't think it would make any difference if my relatives were using Linux in the first place. They would still need to ask someone to fix their printer drivers and handle big version upgrades. And if it was me at the other end, it would be way more convenient to me to help them.

I stopped advertising Linux to people who didn't ask me to... I'll tell them I use different things on my computer and why this software is way better. If they pick up on that and want to try out of their own motivation, I'll gladly help.

VampyreOfNazareth ,

The unpaid intern of tech

Willie ,

No, it's better to be honest. The average user isn't ready for Linux, because Linux is not ready for the average user. I'd never try and get someone to use it if they're not already interested. I hate that it is this way, but it is. Linux is only really for people who already want to use it. Because if you're not interested in using it, you're not going to put forth the time investment to gain the benefits from it. No matter what angle I look at it from Linux is not for the average person.

Your second paragraph says it all. Find out if the user needs to dual boot? The answer is obviously "No" because no matter what they're using the computer for, Linux is unneeded for them, since they have Windows. There are tangible benefits to using Windows, since it runs their software, meanwhile, you failed to list any real benefits to using Linux for the average user. It's faster? No, not really, since they'll be learning how to use it, and even ignoring that, it's not so much faster that they'll perceive it anyway. It's more secure? Not really, Windows is the better choice for the average user in that respect, since it'll automatically force them to restart the machine every week to install security updates. Main choice of professionals? That's not entirely true, and even if it were, it's not relevant, the average user is not a professional. And for anyone who already owns a computer already running Windows, Windows was 'free' too.

The only time to have this discussion is if the user is having a PC built, and then the answer is also "No" to Linux, because they're going to buy Windows anyway, since it's better for gaming, and that's the primary reason for someone to build a PC, unless they're doing a specialized task like video editing, and if they are invested enough into the task to want a PC just for that, they have specialized software that almost always runs only on Windows, and even if it were able to run on either, it's not my place to alter their workflow.

The real elitist attitude is thinking people need to use Linux in the first place. For me and (maybe) you, it might get the job done, but for my family and friends. It's better that they use what they're comfortable with. The main point of a computer is to accomplish tasks, and giving them Linux is a hindrance to that.

Linux is great, but it's not for everyone, and it may never be.

bouh ,

That's plain wrong. That's not honest, that's elitist at best.

No user ever installed windows. So the whole installation and driver thing is a dishonest question.

Even for gaming on a custom PC, just take an amd card and games on steam, it'll run smoothly.

Browsing Internet and desktop? Works fine on Linux. Fuck office, you don't need it.

If you need a computer for a specific software, that's a different matter. But presenting it like everyone is concerned is dishonest.

The security paragraph is complete nonsense. And obnoxiously rebooting is a major hindrance for most people, and it's not avoidable without the professional licence.

It's not 2010 anymore.

narc0tic_bird ,
@narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee avatar

"Fuck office, you don't need it." <- the audacity to assume someone doesn't need something.

bouh ,

No one needs office unless the company forces it.

tigerjerusalem ,

Thank you. Windows is plain better for the average user, and that's a hard pill for many to swallow. Heck, I force myself to use Linux time to time but I always go back because the Affinity suite and my fingerprint reader only works on Windows. I have no reason to stay on Linux, it's too limited outside niche cases.

Holzkohlen ,

No. Mint is fine for my dad who uses a browser and an email program and nothing else. I'm not gonna recommend it to people who do a lot more with their machines. I can tell them I use Linux and they can ask me anything if they are ever curious about making the switch, but that is it. If they don't make the conscious decision to use Linux, then they won't stick with it anyways.

LemonLord ,
@LemonLord@endlesstalk.org avatar

I guess this is the purpose of Mint Linux? But I think it has a terminal, emacs, python as well? Then it's ok. A distro is only a tool for needs. I don't like this arch-talk, how cool it is and then you need month to write your configuration. By the way: what goes quicker on a laptop: Mint with xcfe or Ubuntu with xfce? I want to have a quicker boot. At the moment Kubuntu on the machine. Too slow.

Bene7rddso ,

Mint because Snaps

PseudoSpock ,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

And Mint because Gnome (shudder)

pbjamm ,
@pbjamm@beehaw.org avatar

I am genuinely curious what "more with their machines" actions you found Mint to be lacking in?

SimplyTadpole ,
@SimplyTadpole@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I can't speak for OP, but I remember reading about two years ago that Linux Mint is a poor choice for gaming because Cinnamon's compositor can't handle more fast-paced games (even just 60 FPS) and will reduce them to a stuttery mess even if the game's otherwise running fine. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I did deal with it back in late 2021.

There was also the stuff about Lutris developers abandoning their support for Mint (in a letter I feel was frankly way too harsh, rude and unprofessional) due to it doing some weird stuff with system packages that made the Lutris program generate weird bugs that couldn't be replicated in other Ubuntu-derivative distributions. However, that can be circumvented by using the Lutris flatpak.

Honestly, I do hope those are no longer issues. I have a soft spot for Linux Mint since it was the first distro I daily-drove (and has a similar UI to Windows XP my beloved), and even though I don't use it anymore, I still follow its development from time to time and I'd love to see it getting better and universally usable for everyone.

abby ,

proprietary software that won't run under wine

Oisteink ,

There’s 0 need for Linux to grow. It powers 80% of new web-apps, runs the big gaming systems, parts of azure and aws. It’s the go-to server os for most use-cases.

The Linux desktop needs to mature if it’s to grow. Non-tech users don’t care for “new and innovative ux paradigms”. They don’t wanna scan the internet to figure out why sound is missing after upgrading to pop_os 4. That or they need someone close by to fix it for free

psud ,

My partner's Linux box runs fine and has had no faults that needed my help in the 10 years it's been showing her news, email, and web

It's a lot more stable than it was years and years ago

Loucypher ,

Is it Debian?

psud ,

Ubuntu, if I need to reset it, it'll be Debian/gnome

qaadka ,

I installed ubuntu onto a mini pc and spent days trying just to get the sound to work but gave up and went back to Mac

RedtheBean ,
@RedtheBean@mastodon.social avatar

@qaadka @Oisteink I can help 😈

mods_are_assholes ,

All I want is to be able to post a question in a forum and get an answer besides "Until you read these 3 texts and 20 MAN entries I don't want you to even stain this forum's pages with your ignorant drivel'.

I've been trying to go linux for 20 years now and every fuckdamn time a problem I cannot solve or find an answer for online leads to the above and I'm done.

You guys may have cleaned up your community now but I don't have the energy or patience to try it again.

Full Disclosure: IT admin with 3 decades of experience including supporting linux servers. If I have a hard time with it, think about what your average 'raised on a smartphone' newbie is going to think.

rab ,
@rab@lemmy.ca avatar

Linux sysadmin here too. I run Windows on my main workstation now because I have no patience for issues like sound not working when I join a video call and shit like that. Your post perfectly describes my gripe with Linux.

Windows sucks but 99 percent of problems are solved by simply rebooting the motherfucker.

mods_are_assholes ,

Every word you speak is truth.

Something in my heart feels that if instead of spreading out a huge topheavy ecosystem of near identical distros that change their hippy dippy naming structures on a regular basis and instead on GETTING F$@KING PERIPHERALS TO WORK CONSISTENTLY then it would be a mainstream option.

I think the current massive distro ecosystem is actually cointelpro by the OS big boys to cripple competition.

Nevoic , (edited )

I've seen a couple of posts in here about sound. It's wild that I've been through dozens of distros since the start of high school (12 years ago), installed them on at least 10 machines over that time, and can't remember one issue with sound that took more than 15 seconds to fix (e.g discord choosing the wrong sound device because I have 6 things plugged in that can technically output sound, which also happens to my friends who use Windows).

Maybe I'm just lucky. The only issues I recall having in the last decade are essentially graphics related. Either game compatibility (though proton/wine is much better than it was in 2015) or desktop environments being finicky (freezing on sleep for example), but the latter afaict was entirely due to proprietary nvidia drivers. There are proper, high-performance open source drivers in the works, so nvidia might be on par with amd in 2-3 years on Linux (which is to say literally no issues for the vast majority of people, probably far more stable than Windows).

In the same time I've had lots of people come to me with problems that we've specifically troubleshooted and found Windows to be the issue even when it seemed like hardware problems. Like monitor flickering/black screening, and plugging in a different monitor the issue goes away. On the surface it seems like a hardware problem, but both monitors worked flawlessly on Linux for literally months. Full reinstalling Windows did not fix the issue. Upgrading from Windows 10 -> 11 did not fix the issue.

Same thing with another friend's external SSD. For some reason it wasn't being detected on his Windows 7 install. We installed Linux and the drive was picked up. Maybe Windows 10 would've also picked up the drive in this circumstance, but a lot of people hated the idea of Windows 10 at the time (this was just after Windows 10 was released, when Windows 7 still had a similar market share).

There's likely a huge percentage of problems people attribute to hardware that are actually Windows being a shitty O.S, but nobody actually checks if Windows is the problem.

rab , (edited )
@rab@lemmy.ca avatar

Similarly, maybe just luck, but I've not really had a problem with windows since windows 10/server 2019. Yeah it's resource heavy but I can't even recall anything I've specifically had to delve into forums to troubleshoot. That said I haven't had to do any windows desktop support since windows 7, thank the gods.

I deployed several server 2022 vms at work due to special circumstance and its actually good out of box, I only disabled some print services and my gold image was ready. Those have been running for a year and I've only rebooted them due to patching. Very different than the windows I adminned back in the 2000s.

rambaroo ,

Ubuntu resets my default audio every time I put it to sleep. I have no idea why, other distros didn't do this. Sometimes it fails to detect the speakers on my laptop completely.

I've found Ubuntu to need a lot less effort than other distros so I'm not planning to ditch it yet, but even Ubuntu still has weird quirks like this.

Also, some apps fail to open in x11 for some reason so I have to switch to a Wayland session every now and then. And then switch back to x11 because other apps won't open in Wayland.

Linux always has some weird usability issue no matter how many distros I've tried. It's getting a lot better but it's not there yet.

BaumGeist ,

I don't buy the whole "the more users a software has, the better it gets" rhetoric. Historically this has been the opposite of the case. There's an even higher users-to-contributors ratio amongst the general population. Not all users share the same respect for the philosophy behind FOSS.

If the driving force behind design decisions becomes "what keeps people happy so they'll keep using our software" and not "freedom," there's now a practical incentive to sell out and introduce more Intellectual Property shenanigans into the ecosystem. After all, it's a lot easier to hire devs and churn out new features and keep the software actively developed for the foreseeable future if there's money in it. And the only way there can be money in it is if there are proprietary licenses shitting up the place, and Shit As A Service suscription models as far as the eye can see.

Linux always has been, and should always continue to be, about freedom. If that freedom comes with user-friendliness, great! If not, then we have to pay the price: taking responsibility for the tools and tech we use and learning how to use them properly and contributing to them to maintain a community of likeminded people. Otherwise, we're not worthy of the freedom and the responsibilities it entails.

I get your point about elitism and gatekeeping. We're no better than Windows users or Mac users or any other OS' users. We just have a set of values unique to our community, and they have sets of values that differ. We also shouldn't be throwing users under the bus in the name of politics, but part of what makes Linux slightly more bearable is the way the driving philosophy of Free Software is evident throughout. Linux is better than it could be because it attracts the people who want to be here for the community's values, not the people who have to be coaxed and coerced into accepting the values to use the "best"/"easiest"/"friendliest" software.

Adanisi ,
@Adanisi@lemmy.zip avatar

This. GNU/Linux should be sold on the premise of the values of software freedom.

Stuff like:

Imagine being able to take a piece of software to any programmer you know or can find to fix a bug, or add something, or improve something, the same way you can take your car to any mechanic. And if you're inclined, you can even work yourself. Think of how liberating that would be for the world's communities.

Stuff like that

octopus_ink ,

OK I'm searching in vain for the mega-upvote button.

I would add that desktop Linux only exists today as an alternative to Windows because of those values. This history of Linux desktop environments and applications is rife with examples of popular or personally important bits of software that were forked and kept alive by the freedom granted by FLOSS licensing.

If "Linux" was a thing that MS could have bought and then destroyed or enshittified, they'd have done it twenty years ago. And make no mistake, they continue to play the long game.

Yes, we should all be good to newcomers. No, the direction of desktop Linux should not be steered by wanting more of them. It should be steered by a need to provide desktop Linux for people who enjoy using desktop Linux.

ricdeh ,
@ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

I wish Free Software, Free Society were mandatory reading...

Adanisi , (edited )
@Adanisi@lemmy.zip avatar

❤️

1000030883

PDF: https://www.gnu.org/doc/Press-use/fsfs3-hardcover.pdf

Physical: https://shop.fsf.org/ (when it's back open)

someacnt_ ,

It's already dominant on the servers.

GravitySpoiled , (edited )

Stop being elitist.

Use linux mint.

Why linux mint?

It's like ubuntu but no snaps.

What's ubuntu?

It's like debian but not as stable. You'll get more recent apps in ubuntu, test them, and when they are tested companies use the apps in debian.

Ok, What are snaps?

You can install packages with snap, but it's proprietary.

Ok, that's bad?

Yes. Foss apps are great and better than proprietary garbage.

Ok, foss good, proprietary garbage.

Why debian and not fedora?

Because all apps are build for it.

So it's like aur?

No. Aur is made by users for users. Builds on debian are mostly official.

So the package manager is better on debian?

Yes, kind of.

I heard of distrobox. I could use the package manager on any distro.

Yes, but it's easier at the beginning to stick to one distro and package manager to get used to it.

Why not arch?

It's too unstable.

Ok, no arch distro. I heard manjaro is good.

No, it holds back packages for no reason.

Ok. What about fedora?

It doesn't have as many packages.

But it has the copr, aren't there a lot of apps?

Yes, but it's like aur, it's build by users. Debian builds are good, stable and widely used.

Ok. What about nix? I heared it's the new arch and there are even more packages.

Yes, but It's not for newbies.

What is an immutable system? I heared that's the next big thing.

It's like android an image based operating system where you can't brick your system by accident with rm -rf /

What's rm -rf /?

Just test it in a terminal, it's fun.

How can I play games?

You install steam.

Do I have to configure anything?

Hopefully not

Can I only use linux mint?

No you can use any distro, they are all linux. You can choose whatever you want. Just choose mint.

Why mint?

It has no snaps.

What do I use instead?

Flatpaks

If I use flatpaks, why does the package manager matter so much?

Because not all apps are available as flatpacks, especially command line tools. Snaps has cli but it's proprietary.

Can't I just use any distro and use a debian distrobox for those packages I need from debian?

Yes, use linux mint, it's easy to use.

Do I actually need all those packages? I only use word and steam.

No, probably not.

Why not using ubuntu and install flatpaks?

Because ubuntu sucks.

But isn't mint based on ubuntu?

Yes, but it has no snaps.

Can't I just use debian?

Yes, but it doesn't have the latest packages.

How do I install word?

You can't. You can use the online version.

That's a lot to understand. Can't I just windows? I only open steam anyway.

Yes, but it's proprietary.

Steam is also proprietary.

Yes, but you xan play games with it on linux.

But if steam is proprietary, and windows is proprietary, and I mainly use steam anyway, does it even matter?

What's a DE?

Linux mint uses cinnamon, it's cool!

I saw some KDE screemshots. It looks cool and everyone talks about it. There's a big release coming in a few weeks. how do I install it?

You usually don't mix DEs unless you know what you do.

I don't.

Then don't mix it.

But I want to use KDE. Which distro should I use? Kubuntu?

No, it uses snaps like ubuntu.

...

hendrik , (edited )

No it doesn't. If you don't care and just want anything that runs Steam, don't bother. Just pick anything, it runs fine on most Linux distributions, Windows and probably Mac. You're fine with tossing a coin. I'd choose Linux in that case since it's cheaper.

A proper conversation would be like this:

What shall I use?

Depends... What do you want to do with your computer?

Play games with Steam.

Alright, then use XY. Wanna know more?

No.

Fine.

ares35 ,

most 'newbies', who just need something to launch a browser these days, wouldn't go past line 2.

lemmyreader ,

Thanks for the laugh 😀

waspentalive ,
@waspentalive@lemmy.one avatar

Going for that "who's on first base" vibe?

BaldProphet ,

What’s rm -rf /?

Just` test it in a terminal, it’s fun.

💀

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Someone prefers mint.

TMP_NKcYUEoM7kXg4qYe ,

How do I install word?
https://yt.artemislena.eu/watch?v=LH-6tp-KBuQ

quackers ,

This is gonna cause more harm than good. The reason people think it's techy is because it is.
I would recommend linux to my grandma and someone who loves tech. The middleground runs into a lot of issues for doing anything beyond basic computer stuff.

This post gives me the vibe of someone desperately trying to get people to buy the cryptocurrency they're invested in. Particularly the part where only the good is mentioned and the bad is omitted.

Some linux people are pretty elitist though, and it's not helping the cause. but in the same way, i dont think pretending that it's the greatest thing since sliced tea is much better.

Alborlin ,

The Lemmy Linux Community is elitist about Linux, I mean I told them I can't find a file comparators on Linux I got downvotes , out of 4 , 1 solutions is use of Terminal(not a basic user would want to do) , 1 is claiming windows is bad and 1 might be a solutions.

But yah I got the downvotes from LINUX Bros. Dudes needs to just admit linux läcka programs and simplicity of use for general use.

lunachocken ,

Less people, less developers, less software. Gatekeepers seem to prefer to keep it worse, than get the obvious benefits of more users.

If Linux had the most and Windows the least users, it'd probably be in the same boat with the less ease of use in many cases.

Alborlin ,

True on both counts.

rcbrk ,

Part of me thinks you're being unreasonable, because that question did receive decent responses (1 CLI + GUI suggestion, 1 GUI suggestion, and 2 beginning to try troubleshoot the drive access problem).

But I suspect it's just a dissonance in perspectives, maybe due to your Linux distro causing a bunch of stupid issues, which haven't been properly noticed by anyone yet.

It's a shame that some distros like Ubuntu have enshittified so badly that they've become unsupportable. (Nothing seems to work rationally -- the same reason I find it impossible to support users on Windows).

Advocates and potential/new users alike, need to consider specific distributions, not just "Linux".

kent_eh ,

People who daily drive Linux are not the ones who spread the old idea that it's "too techy".

CrabAndBroom ,

I admittedly don't have many conversation about Linux with people, but yeah the ones I do have are usually me trying to convince people that it's less techy and scary than they think it is. One person asked me how I do everything if it's only text. They thought Linux was literally just the terminal with no UI at all. I had to be like "no dude, it's like everything else. You can just install Firefox or Chrome or whatever you want."

Alborlin ,

It's still techy, here two recent problems I faced with still no solution'( specially with only Gui)

  1. Try to put Programs such as Firefox , emby in startup of linux
  2. Find a folder comparison software, let it feels nd external drive ATTACHED TO LAPTOP and compare two folders on it.

and every time I say Linux is not usefull for simple use i get downvotes all the time . Cause Linux bro dudes can do it with terminal so easy... Well guess what linux dudes , its hard for performing many tasks which are simple enough on windows/Mac heck even on Android ( which is Linux also I know) , but desktop Linux has looooooooooooooong way to be normal os in households

PizzaMane ,

Try to put Programs such as Firefox , emby in startup of linux

Ignore me if you're not still looking for solutions.

IIRC, some distros have a way to do this through the gui, some don't. I'm on LMDE, and it thankfully does have a gui to set startup programs.

But all distros should be able to do this. Here are some a common ways:

https://operavps.com/docs/run-command-after-boot-in-linux/

Instead of a complicated script, your command would literally just be "firefox", or "emby". You might need to search for what the command for a given program is.

It's nowhere near as simple as it should be, but it is certainly possible.

rcbrk ,

Find a folder comparison software [with only Gui]

A quick web search (even without 'graphical') turned up pages suggesting meld in the first few results.

GravityAce ,

Things are fine until one day they need to plug this random peripheral/accessory and it's not plug and play. Then they hate you forever

fakeman_pretendname ,

You're totally right for brand new kit, but for older kit I've found that's swung hard in the opposite direction.

For example, I was trying to help someone at the weekend setting up some old audio kit, a few printers and a slide scanner on their mac system, and it was a nightmare, and half of it's still not working.

You're constantly getting stuck with "this device only works with these 3 versions of this software and those versions of software only works on these versions of MacOS and these versions of MacOS only work with these models of Mac.

When I tested the devices on my laptop (Linux Mint), everything was detected instantly and worked with several different pieces of software (at least as far as you can test in a few minutes).

As said, I get that's not the case with newest kit, or kit that requires special proprietary software, but for a lot of older equipment, I absolutely can't fault it.

redxef ,

If someone comes to me I'm more than happy to answer questions and help, but I won't bring it up. People don't like being told that their tool of choice is "bad" "not optimal" or anything like that. Even if it's only their choice because they grew up with it or don't want to learn anything new. And they still need to learn if it's more than browsing the web.

Also I really don't want to be the one they come running to once something doesn't work the way they expected - or not at all. I don't have the time nor the inclination to be tech support for my family and half of my friends.

flubba86 ,

This is the same as how I am. People know I'm "the Linux guy", but I don't preach it. I don't try to get friends and family to switch operating systems. That's like trying to get someone to switch to your favourite brand of underpants. The whole ethos behind Linux is the freedom of choice. If someone wants to learn more about it, I'm happy to point them to helpful resources, but they need to make the decision on their own, and choose for themselves. I won't install it for them, because I don't want to deal with the "where are all my pictures are gone?", or "why doesnt my scanner work anymore?"

wesker , (edited )
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I don't often suggest Linux to friends or family, because I don't want to be on the hook for tech support. I also don't want to be the blamed party when they inevitably give up, and be obligated to reinstall their old OS.

Linux is growing naturally. There's little reason to suggest it to someone who won't benefit from it.

EDIT: I want to clarify, I appreciate the spirit of your post. But I also want to call out, that it just isn't the best choice for most people.

jackpot OP ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

fair enough

Marduk73 ,
@Marduk73@sh.itjust.works avatar

casually mentions how i run linux.
other person. that's cool. continues with windows.

if they don't want to hear it, they don't want to hear it. but if they do, they know they can ask.

ULS ,

No. Make them use it. Force them. Hit them if you need to. Make sure they do an Arch install without any scripts and don't help them

Look at them harshly thoughout the whole interaction and let them know they are less then us.

limitedduck ,

I went through Arch install and I'm doing just fine, thanks. They just moved me out of the ICU to a new unit called "Palliative". It's quite comfy.

ULS ,

Welcome to the club. You're a real Linux user now.

maxprime ,

I don’t think anyone who isn’t already curious about Linux should install Linux. And I sure as hell am not going to try to convince anyone and be blamed for not being able to use adobe products.

Tippon ,

I would make an exception for the type of people who only use their computer for the internet. People like my parents, who do about 98% of everything through a browser, and occasionally write a letter.

For someone like them, Linux is ideal. Just explain that Firefox is the internet and rename the office shortcuts, and they wouldn't notice a difference.

jackpot OP ,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

thats a huge portion of people too

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