Oh, well, there it is, absolute immunity for official acts.
"Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of Presidential power entitles a former President to absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority. And he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no immunity for unofficial acts." -- Roberts
The final opinion of the Supreme Court’s term: Presidential immunity. The court, in a 6-3 opinion delivered by Chief Justice John Roberts, REMANDS the case to Judge Chutkan for further findings on whether Trump’s conduct in the indictment qualifies as official or unofficial.
Basically, he can’t be charged if he orders a legitimate strike on a terrorist that accidentally kills an American (or something like that), but he can be charged for personal acts while POTUS.
Now (and the whole point of the ruling) comes the fight over official vs unofficial.
And, apparently, you can't use like EVIDENCE against the President either:
"On remand, District Court must carefully analyze the indictment’s remaining allegations to determ whether they too involve conduct for which a Pres must be immune from prosec. & the parties & District Ct must ensure that sufficient allegations support indictment’s charges w/o such conduct. Testimony or private records of Pres or his advisers probing such conduct may not be admitted as evid at trial”:Roberts
@GottaLaff I do think it's pretty clear that conspiring to attack the Capitol because you're mad you lost the election isn't an official act. That's an act of Trump the candidate, not Trump the POTUS.
Likewise the classified docs case. He wasn't even POTUS at all for most of that.
Ummm is everyone forgetting Biden is surrounded by intelligent advisors who likely have thought this might happen and are taking measures at this moment?
@Snowshadow@GottaLaff Exactly what measures do you think they can take? This is not even a Biden problem, technically, it's a DOJ problem. And there's a limit to what they can do about it.
@Snowshadow@GottaLaff The DOJ has limits, but now Biden doesn't. And yes, he could technically use his official king power to send the military to arrest Alito and Thomas for corruption (or terrorism) or send the national guard into red states to keep people away from ballot boxes until after the election, but Biden isn't going to use his king powers because he's a decent human being who still believes we're a nation of laws even if the SC doesn't.
@Snowshadow@GottaLaff Sometimes no matter how smart you are there simply aren't any good options. If he were smart and had the votes, he could have expanded the court and this never would have happened, but he said he didn't want to, and if he had wanted to he didn't have the votes. So either not smart or not an option.
Sometimes the smartest people in the world lose to dumb psychopaths. It happened in Germany in the 30s. It may happen here this year.
@GottaLaff@Snowshadow He didn't even have 50, because of Manchin and Sinema. Which is why I don't think it's necessarily fair to hold his saying he didn't want to expand the court against him - why say you want to do something and look impotent because you can't?
@Amoshias@GottaLaff
Wait for a
White House press conference. I am not the president. Every time the US has faced a crisis the president has restored order. It isn't time to panic.
Every time? Like when Chump and Jared sent mixed messages about the Covid-19 virus, then stockpiled and warehoused PPE? Or allowed DeJoy to ransack and trash millions$ usps sorting machines? Or like JANUARY-6-Insurrection-Day??!!
Many Germans were sure Hitler would restore economic order to their country ... and then he destroyed Europe and murdered millions ... long after it was time to panic.
@Snowshadow@AbiNormal@GottaLaff he's saying that what you said - that presidents always reassure the country and always have a plan - is ahistorical nonsense.
@GottaLaff The key will be Judge Chutkan's determination of Candidate Trump vs. President Trump's actions pursuant to the fake electors scheme, his exhortation to his supporters on and before Jan 6 and whether his pressure on VP Pence crossed the line to into unofficial acts.
@GottaLaff@TomShafShafer Every gap in a SCOTUS opinion can be appealed by Trump right back to SCOTUS. He'll die of old age before he can be brought to justice.
BIG: On pages 30-32 of the majority opinion, the conservatives just ruled that not only is a president immune with respect to his official acts, but also that evidence related to those official acts cannot come into any trial.
That threatens to eviscerate the special counsel's indictment.
The special counsel's indictment alleges Donald Trump enlisted the Justice Department to lie about fraud and pressure state officials to take action based on those lies.
That part of the indictment, according to the conservative justices, could very likely now be thrown out.
@Npars01@GottaLaff I know Joe doesn’t want to, but surely now is the time to start working to expand the Supreme Court. Any reasonable claim to impartiality has now been negated and the stark bias needs to be corrected.
@GottaLaff
There is little question trump forcd kennedy's sudden retirement, enabling appointment of Kavanaugh. Therehas got to be dirt on most if not all of the 6. We know a lot of it and they don't care. But now maybe some existential threats to their wealth, families, whatever could be influential. Maybe Alito's wife had a traffic accident that killed someone a few decades ago. Whatever. Take the gloves off, get out the long knives. This is war.
@dbc3 Sorry, not into conspiracy theories. Not everyone has secrets that are being used against them. Trump chose who the Federalist people told him to.
@GottaLaff The most infuriating thing: The GOP SCOTUS knows that Democrats like President Biden respect the country and the Constitution too much to take advantage of this immunity — say, by ordering Seal Team 6 to go into Mar-a-Lago with guns blazing to search for more classified docs.
They ONLY want to help presidents who DON'T believe in America.
Well, the radical right-wing conservatives on this court have thought nothing of overturning precedent, so there's no reason that sometime in the future (however far into the future that may be, admittedly) another court can't overturn this ruling.
@GottaLaff@OldAndCranky i have my passport filled out, now to send it in. I want out before things begin to decline too fast. No one should be immune from their consequences of their criminal actions.
@SDParris@GottaLaff I'm old. I doubt I'll be leaving. I just don't know what to do. I'm so worried for my daughter and her wife and child. Both daughters for that matter, but the gay one especially. I want to hide them all and protect them- and they're very grown up women.
@GottaLaff@SDParris Yeah- I keep telling my kids to get out while the going's good. But they don't. They live in MA and NYC so I guess they're feeling fairly protected...
@GottaLaff@OldAndCranky
I've always lived in the american south...aka Tennessee, NC, SC, Florida and Texas in order. The political climates are harsh for too many. It is a terrible reminder of my years growing up in a fundy religious cult.
@GottaLaff It turns out I have read most of those posts! I just kind of forgot the details because I'm old and just moved 18 months ago myself (and STILL adjusting). I bet having twin boys was a journey! My girls are two years a part and that was a trip...and we moved 3000(San Francisco to NJ) miles back when they were 1 and 3. After this latest move from NJ to MA, I think I'm all moved out. At least we're living in the bluest of states and hoping we'll all survive. I keep telling the kids to consider it but- who knows.
@GottaLaff I don't know what else we can do at this point. My gay kid and her wife are so happy in Boston... surrounded by friends and supportive co workers in good situations. Straight daughter has less to lose- I could see her leaving the country at some point. I'm not sure Canada would be her choice, though.
@OldAndCranky I didn't mean it that way. I just meant, no matter how comfortable anyone feels in a blue state now, they should also be aware that SCOTUS has changed that. That's all.
@LadyLiberty5591 It's global. My ONLY point to my dear @OldAndCranky is that we can't allow ourselves a false sense of security just because we're in a blue state.
I just moved from California, bright blue. I know better than to have felt safe there. If abortion is banned, it'll be banned in every state. Same for every fascist law they'll pass, meaning anti-Black, Brown, LGBTQ, you name it.
We all can't move, obviously, & blue states are clearly best. But stay alert.
@GottaLaff I know, I’m grasping at straws here, but can Biden, in an official act as commander in chief, send in Seal Team 6 to detain the concurring justices until they have reconsidered their opinion?
@GottaLaff "In recognizing actions that are a direct threat to our representative democracy, as an "official act" I am ordering the arrest of 6 members of the Supreme Court for violations of their oaths" --Biden, hopefully
For years I have been a "rule of law is more important that my policy preferences" person. But I hope the sun sets with Biden having assassinated most of the Court, a fifth of the federal judiciary, and half of the Republican congresspeople and state office holders.
*It is worth taking a step back and just reflecting on how America now relies entirely on the Biden administration being adult and NOT using the power they just handed him.
He could right now arrest all the Republican justices on the SCOTUS, have them publicly flogged, waterboarded, and tell them to retire, or face weekly raids and more floggings. He could order the FBI to investigate anyone criticizing his admin, and have them rounded up. All would be perfectly legal
@GottaLaff And if there's one thing we know about Joe Biden & the current Dem leadership, they are committed to taking bold, potentially controversial steps. This time, instead of saying "you have to vote," they may take the unprecedented step of LOUDLY saying "you have to vote."
@GottaLaff You're right. I'm wrong. The Dems are doing a bang-up job. I should never have vented my displeasure online after reading about this horrific ruling. I'll shut up & wait for my ballot.
Instead of responding with nasty little sarcastic replies, instead of giving me real answers to my questions, use what's left of your brain to process actual facts.
@GottaLaff@_L1vY_: You were very smart, and you also had the right circumstances to be able to make it happen. As I mentioned in my DM to you, I did look into it right after Trump was elected in 2016, but given my situation, I just flat out didn't qualify and still don't.
@GottaLaff@_L1vY_: For the whole Canada thing there's a lot more to it than just getting a good lawyer. To emigrate to Canada, you can qualify a number of ways. One way if you're retired is to have a threshold of wealth that meets their requirements.
Trying to go another way, it's possible if you have the right mix of skills and job opportunities, you can qualify through an employment option. It's not quite like our H1B Visa program, but it's similar in concept. I do have skills and education that could have potentially worked on that score with a big BUT.
If, because of medical issues you really aren't able to work, that puts you back to having to be wealthy enough, and it's a pretty high bar.
At the time I was looking, to qualify on wealth, you had to have a minimum of 10M Canadian of net worth not counting your home. From that you had to be able to invest at least 3M Canadian into their economy through a number of different options.
@goodreedAJ What I meant by that is that it took a good lawyer to guide us or we never would have gotten in. Clearly not everyone can afford one. Just as most people can't afford the FIVE million it takes to buy your way in. We couldn't do that. @_L1vY_
@GottaLaff@_L1vY_: So the price has gone up since 2016. Not surprising. You only needed 3M to buy your way in back then. Still an impossible bar.
But yes, I understood what you meant about needing a good lawyer, and you were very fortunate to have found one to guide you through a very harrowing process.
My point was that if you don't have the necessary qualifications in some category, the best lawyer in the world wouldn't be able to get you in. They can't build a case without the necessary foundation. Yes, it takes determination to jump through the innumerable hoops and so on, and having that good lawyer is crucial to make sure you don't miss anything. You guys had the skills / work options in your favor to build that foundation. If neither of you could work because of medical issues, you wouldn't have made it.
@GottaLaff: I'm stunned. I don't recognize this country anymore, and I fear life going forward. The years of delay now over which acts were personal vs. official will ensure that the DC trial can't go forward for the foreseeable future. Presidents are effectively immune from criminal prosecution because they can claim that everything they do is official in some way, and because of the prohibitions on submitting evidence to the contrary, it'll be next to impossible to prove they aren't.
This also means that the documents case will likely be fully upended now (not that Cannon hasn't already done her level best to do so anyway).
You were right - although not outright giving Trump immunity, they've engineered the disputes that he can make circular enough to effectively give it to him in the end. Damn.
@GottaLaff My understanding is the untenable part of this ruling is that Trump gets a 👍 , but a future ruling against Biden could easily go the opposite direction. They’ll twist themselves in the knots to rationalize a different response. Let’s say, Biden decides in his duty to protect the country from being hijacked by a minority of fascists, that he retires the Supreme Court or readjusts its membership. You know what they’d say about that.🤔
@GottaLaff It is, but from what I've gathered from assorted legal voices pre-gaming the SCOTUS decision on this case, it may mean that the people gain deeper insight into the evidence and charges as this advance litigation unfolds, depending on how Chutkan moves ahead and what Jack Smith does in response. We may not have verdict b4 election, but our info will expand.
@GottaLaff all of the 2024 SCOTUS rulings appear to be aimed at providing full employment for conservative attorneys. Add that to project 2025 where only MAGA can work for the federal government, we can see how conservitives are taking all the jobs. except for Trumps 'black ones' or the 'Hispanic ones'. There probably will be a few 'dem jobs' thrown in too.
@GottaLaff so in essence, if I have this right, the justices just threw it back to Chutken to decide what is and is not official? So she will go through everything and the public could/can find out exactly what the evidence is against Trump?
@GottaLaff I’m not sure he doesn’t care. I think he does care- but knows the winners get to write the history books.
So he’s picking winners and carefully curating his side.
@GottaLaff Asking for a friend: If a #potus decided to have #sealteam6 or maybe #SecretServiceTeam1 take out a political rival deemed a threat to the country, can #potus be charged, since it's an official act?
@GottaLaff it’s incredible how far we’ve come as a nation from decrying tyranny to trumpeting it as necessary and what was always intended by the Founders, who maybe liked it actually?
@GottaLaff Does routing and purging traitors count as an official act?
Biden could start a really aggressive cleanup as a matter of policy and give us a really good July 4th or we can pretend this wasn't a power grab and wait for the fascists to kick off their coordinated response to the decision.
@GottaLaff I'm prone to musings about whether the protection and defense of American law and American democracy constitutes an official act. I feel pretty sure I'm not alone in this. 😡
@GottaLaff To test the waters of "official" vs. "unofficial" acts, perhaps Biden could order the reinstatement of Gen. Mike Flynn and then have him court-martialed and jailed for his clearly anti-government Q activities?
@GottaLaff 6+ month delay is finally over for likely the easiest case in history , but they accomplished their objective of pushing Trump trial past the election.