I will never vote for Joe Biden again and if you’re looking for an alternative the party for socialism and liberation has a platform of Palestinian statehood and ending arms shipments to israel.
If you want election reform their platform also includes radical expansions of democracy!
My past third party votes were not counted towards other candidates and if you’re using the logic that any third party vote takes away from possible Biden votes you may have missed it when I said I would never vote for Joe Biden again.
I will absolutely never vote for Joe Biden again.
Nothing will ever make me willingly cast a ballot for him again. I’d vote third party if it was Biden versus Hitler.
There are people as disgusted with Biden as I am who simply don’t know that there are alternatives aside from the worthless greens, actively harmful libertarians and joke candidates like Afro man and vermin supreme.
A vote for the party for socialism and liberation goes toward a party that shows up at protests, runs local candidates and has a cohesive platform.
The support that vote confers helps them get funding, event presence, ballot presence, media attention and of course public awareness.
If you want better democrats, not psl, voting for psl shows democrats in terms that cannot be deepfaked, covered up or minimized that there are votes they could get if their platform and candidates were closer to those of psl.
If you don’t like Biden and don’t think trump is the end of the world, psl is objectively a better choice for your future.
If you think trump is the end of the world, what are you doing posting about it online? Go prepare to perform political violence.
For every person that says they hate biden but will vote for him anyway there are dozens who just don't get it, think "they're both bad" and can't be bothered voting because they'd have to figure it out.
Honestly, you idiots are doing exactly what the republicans would have you do. You're cannibalising support for the left. Well done.
Fuck you. There are tons of us who are extremely critical of Biden without being stupid enough to withhold a vote against Trump. But people like you will blame us anyway if he wins. And the part where you couch it in "will vote for him anyway there are dozens who just don't get it," you're talking down to a lot of people who absolutely understand what's at stake.
The vast majority of voters really are that disinterested. Any narrative to muddy the waters more complex than "Trump bad Biden good" will discourage them from voting.
If you're unable to see that then you're too stupid to see you've been manipulated by conservatives.
If you’re unable to see that then you’re too stupid to see you’ve been manipulated by conservatives.
This is about the most myopic and dismissive insult I've received since joining Lemmy. Congrats! All my political education and seeking information was for nothing. I'm a tool of the christofascists that I hate. You're right. I'll hang up my spurs and show myself out. Fuck off.
So if we all ask really nicely and promise to stop taking the piss about imperial measurements and the absurd size of your motor vehicles can you promise not to vote for trump again? 👉👈🥺
It's really hard to take this position seriously when we can see all the political propaganda coming in from other countries. You sound like nothing more then a Russian bot to me at this point.
I don't need evidence to be right, because I actually paid attention in my government classes and understand how a two party system works.
There are two choices in this election: Biden and Trump. Voting for anyone other than Biden, or not voting at all, is no different from voting for Trump.
You seem more reasonable then a lot of the other mouth breathers on lemmy. What policy decisions do you look for in a presidential candidate besides being anti genocide? I have yet to hear anyone from that camp speak on any other positions they care about, and it's rather worrying.
Universal healthcare, college for all, raise the federal wage to a livable wage, guaranteed housing, massive increase in public transportation, 4-day work week with same pay, tax the rich at a 50% or greater tax rate, ban corporations from owning housing. These are just a start.
Who is this pointing it out to? The major players are already very aware that it’s fucked but only one party is doing anything about that (ranked choice). If your voting block is so fickle then they will turn their focus to shoring up their core bases, ignoring yours. The other side sure isn’t interested in any improvement.
After 2016 there was no one saying “wow we should have talked more about basic income”, the existential threat to democracy was kind of the bigger deal there. Even after 2020, the slim majority in congress limited the progressive power and handed the decisions to the center right dems (Sinema and Manchin).
But sure, splitting the vote to dilute the pool further or hand a win over to the other side will sure move the needle.
Buddy, if you think Democrats are as Fascist as Republicans, you literally have no fucking clue what Fascism is.
If you aren't worried about who will win in November, because you think they're equally bad, you obviously are privileged enough not to be affected by the consequences of a Trump win.
Ideological purity is great from the privileged position you must be in. The real results of Stein voters in the last election is millions losing rights to bodily autonomy, children being forcibly separated from families, a Christian nationalism Supreme Court, and a president playing favorites during the worst pandemic in living memory. There may be some compromises needed to fix a broken system but third parties are not likely to do anything except split the vote and cause harm
i'm pretty sure it was the other way around. jill stein lost by fewer votes than hilary stole from the green party. the democrats spoiled the green revolution.
Stein and Johnson had between 2 (FL) and 20 (MI) times the number of votes making up the margin between Trump and Clinton in FL, WI, MI, and PA. That would have made a difference.
Either way, no third party is viable under the current system and pretending otherwise is the luxury of people who won’t be targeted if the Trump administration is allowed back into power.
Cis white males don't benefit from a Trump presidency either, they just don't get fucked quite as much as everyone else. They're still going to get poorer and suffer from reduced workers rights.
The only people who are truly safe are the ultra wealthy
If enough people vote third party, it's supposed to pull the big two towards them to recapture those voters. If the Dems aren't courting these voters, it's their fault and an indication that they can't be trusted to represent us. Instead, they ignored us completely and will continue down the same bullshit paths that brought us here. If we don't vote third party, nothing will change because the Dems view us as suckers who will fall in line. That's why they shamelessly did Bernie dirty. Biden and the Dems have been flopping around their hardon for Israel while it's obviously splitting their base. It's almost like they want to lose.
Having said all that, I may vote for Biden this time anyway because I told myself long ago that I would vote for the first prez who rescheduled or legalized cannabis.
trump was carrying on the obama-era policy of child-separation, as biden continued after trump. biden also voted for most of the members of the court who overturned roe v wade. i don't think biden is the guy for people who don't like what trump did.
There were absolutely changes in the separation policies across administrations. While it’s not perfect, we are compliant with international law and it was Trump driving from the sidelines that killed an immigration reform bill earlier this year.
He could have only possibly have voted for 2 of the five in the majority in Dobbs. Any Democratic nominee to the court would be better for human rights and policy reform. Congressional majority beyond Sinema and Manchin could bring real court reform.
The point still is that the philosophical argument for third party ignores the reality of the current system and the real cost for not presenting a unified front with the current voting system. Republicans are working to lock in any systematic advantage they can so the odds are already skewed. Democratic governments, currently at the state and local levels, are the only ones addressing gerrymandering (CA) and ranked choice (MA) which could make third parties viable but right now they are a vanity vote that distracts from the real harm being caused by one party.
I haven't voted for a Democrat for president since 2008, and no amount of mischaracterization of the material facts is going to change that. if Democrats want my vote, it's not as though they don't know what Jill Stein or Cornel West or Claudia de la Cruz are doing to earn it.
Sometimes it feels better to rage than to compromise but I’m guessing there is nothing I can say to change your mind. For those on the fence who may read this though: a third party will not win and not voting Democrat will cause real harm to any community that does not strictly adhere to Christian nationalism ideals.
Looking though your comment history, you say some wild shit like what you said above including vote splitting is a myth, and the same about candidate viability. Your comment history is about 60ish at time of replying and most of that was in the past couple of hours, and anything beyond 48 hours was done months ago and limited to less than 20 comments. You're either off your meds or you're insincere and this is a burn account. Considering the time frame, you're either not actually a Russian Bot or you get up around 5, but frankly I don't actually care because no one should ever take what you say seriously.
Hi! I'm a mathematician. I specialize in creating logical arguments as well as finding and explaining the flaws thereof. The Black and White fallacy does not apply here. First, we need to keep in mind the principle of charity, whereby we try to figure out what was meant by our interlocutors when we argue with them, as far as we can by what they said. In this case, the argument here is not literally that all votes that are for someone other than Biden are instead counted for Trump (this premise would have a great many flaws far beyond the fallacy you gave) rather, it is a statement of the failures of certain voting strategies which are well-established mathematical facts. Specifically, if you prefer candidate A over candidate B, and all other candidates have a combined extremely small chance of winning, choosing not to vote for candidate A is effectively making candidate B's victory more likely.
If you vote for anyone else other than Biden, it increases Trumps chance to win (due to a lower amount of total votes for Biden) since we are a 2 party system even though we pretend we aren't. Is this not widely known? We know it's not a literal vote for Trump, but it might as well be a theoretical one.
since we are a 2 party system even though we pretend we aren't
De-jure we are a multi-party system. De-facto we are a 2 party system.
If you vote for anyone else other than Biden, it increases Trumps chance to win [...] We know it's not a literal vote for Trump, but it might as well be a theoretical one.
Without splitting any further hairs, yes; that's essentially correct.
I agree that the person who you originally replied to is wrong (see my comment below) but you're putting forth a bad argument. It is true that reasoning about and performing an action are different. However, this isn't relevant to whether bringing up the fallacy in this context is valid. To the point: we are currently talking about and (ostensibly) reasoning whether a specific course of action is good or not. I think that it's good to vote for Biden. I am overwhelmingly likely to vote for Biden. However, if I voted for Biden because I thought Trump was an actual robot, and therefore unnatural, and therefore bad I'd be committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Now, it just so happens that my counter-factual self would have stumbled upon the correct conclusion, but the fallacy would have been committed nonetheless.
My point was more about the fact that voting in our FPTP system, mathematically, is an act not subject to the same "black & white" fallacy label as a discussion about who is the best candidate, because it actually is a choice between the top two candidates, which is why splitting the vote has been an enduring strategy.
But your illustration about the Fallacy fallacy—that is to say that even if something were a fallacy, that doesn't in itself mean it is untrue—is also a fair point.
The part where the reality is we have a plurality voting system ("First past the post") in place today.
We supposedly live in a democracy,
We do.
I’m voicing my opinion.
You are.
I'm not saying the rule of law should prevent you from doing what you're doing (I'm not a fan of fascism). However, you're being willfully ignorant if you acknowledge our plurality voting system, but claim your work convincing people not to vote for Biden doesn't also helps Trump become president again.
You asked how you're helping Trump. I answered. Once again you ignore the reality of the plurality voting system and refuse to acknowledge the consequences of your actions in helping Trump become president.
If you are so strong in your convictions, so honest in your statements, and so solid in your belief of what you're doing is right, why is it so difficult for you to admit the reality of what you're doing? Even if I don't agree with what you're doing and why, I don't see why you dance so hard around the fact that plurality voting, with your actions to convince people not to vote for Biden, are helping Trump?
Again, you dance away and refuse to admit. I will say this is helpful though. Any post in the future only needs to be pointed to this flow of conversation and see where you stand. Every refusal you remove any ambiguity of miscommunication. Your willful ignorance is on full display. Thank you.
Oh cool then it should be nothing for you to say it right now, right?
What you're doing is helping Trump win by helping convince people not to vote for Biden under our plurality voting system, right? Just say yes that you understand that.
That's true. Asserting doesn't make it so, its actual definition makes it so:
"In single-winner plurality voting (first-past-the-post), each voter is allowed to vote for only one candidate, and the winner of the election is the candidate who represents a plurality of voters or, in other words, received more votes than any other candidate. In an election for a single seat, such as for president in a presidential system, voters may vote for one candidate from a list of the candidates who are competing, and the winner is whichever candidate receives the highest number of votes. " source
Now you're denying what the laws regarding the voting system is the USA?
it’s not a natural law.
Its state law in 48 out of the 50 states.
"48 out of the 50 States award Electoral votes on a winner-takes-all basis (as does the District of Columbia). For example, all 54 of California’s electoral votes go to the winner of the state election, even if the margin of victory is only 50.1 percent to 49.9 percent." source
the existence of a winner-take-all system does not entail that a non-vote or even a vote for some candidate besides trump or biden helps trump. only a vote for trump helps trump.
You're moving the goalposts. What was being discussed is if a vote would have gone to Biden, but becomes a non-vote, then that absolutely helps Trump under plurality voting.
it's unprovable what might happen if a vote, known to have been cast one way, were cast some other way. this is known as a "counterfactual" and they are, tautologically, unprovable.
under what circumstances can you claim that two voters would vote differently, but nothing else would change? given that the circumstances changed enough for them to make a different decision, we must conclude that we don't know enough about the fictional alternate reality to guess at the outcome.
Mainstream media has failed to provide equal and equitable coverage on the candidates. Often highlighting minor flaws of one while completely ignoring major flaws of another.
I don't get it, what you detail is democracy, and these people are being hideous about it, if someone wants to vote third party then that's they're democratic right and to nag and ostracise someone for they're democratic right is manipulative.
if someone wants to vote third party then that’s they’re democratic right and to nag and ostracise someone for they’re democratic right is manipulative.
Oh, right, only the people you agree with have the right to freedom of speech.
No I am glad to look through the comments and see everyone use they're freedom in a dignified and informative way, when freedom of speech turns to calling someone a slur *(used as a slur perhaps) like fascist or form a fictitious narrative meant to repress and shame is when I take issue.
If the race is neck and neck, and you vote for Micky mouse because you wanna feel superior to everyone around you, all you've done is make things worse.
Depending on your location, you may have directly helped trump.
Your anti Biden campaign is what counts here because a) we are all here and b) every voter who reads it is not in California. You want to hate Biden that's totally fine and cool, but leave this hypocritical shit at home. You are an anti Biden loudspeaker around here, not an anti trump voice who likes Biden less.
Most of us see your posts and roll our eyes, but if you sour 10 minds to Biden and your vote doesn't count, who are you helping? Not the non voters, not the voters who feel like you just posted (of which I am one), just the red hat brigade.
If you want to be for trump then do it, if you want to hate Biden do it, but you're yanking our dicks around here and I for one don't like it. Do what you want, but expect this kind of response from the community to keep worsening; not that a downvote ever hurt anybody.
Continue to downvoted but also fight back for Biden. Start posting some positive articles and listing his policies and accomplishments. Better yet, sign up to volunteer for the Biden campaign. Phone calls, texts, canvassing, etc. I tried to find the volunteer sign up on Biden's website but I don't see one though so maybe he doesn't care about volunteers.
As I rule I don't post because I get too sucked into it instead of, you know, being a good dad lol. Yes I also have not found a Biden volunteer option besides cold calling, so I walk for my state rep in my down time instead.
Wrong. In some cases, if your district is competitive, and you've decided to vote for not-trump, if you vote for anyone but the other competitive candidate (in this case Biden), you allow trump to pull ahead due to first past the post voting.
Edit: hypothetically if only 4 people vote,
2 for trump
1 for Biden
1 for mickey
Trump wins.
Edit edit or more compelling...
5 total voters.
2 for trump 1 for Biden 1 for Mickey and one abstains
Trump wins. If the mickey and the abstain voters don't want trump, their best action was to vote for Biden, as that would have achieved:
Bullshit. All conditions I just laid out, were declared in my above comment. Including location dependence.
Edit because you seem to need help... The location dependence I'm referring to is that you need to be in a sufficiently competitive location for that clause to be relevant.
you said a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for trump. you're backing away from that now, softening the claim to say it "allows him to pull ahead". I'm just trying to keep the rhetoric honest.
I was always clear that the act of voting for 3rd party/ spoiler candidates can result in a situation where trump pulls ahead by your vote's absence. I never said it was a literal vote for trump.
This is basic decision making and it's very concerning you can't grasp it.
you said it helps trump, but only a vote for trump helps trump. you're spreading election misinformation. if it takes this much nuance to try (and still fail) to make your claims true, try just being intellectually honest.
You don't understand first past the post voting and basic decision making. The fact that you dont understand absolute basic first past the post voting, for a country you might actually live in is hilarious.
I understand the story you're telling about fptp, and I am telling you it's a myth. the fact that you are passing along this received wisdom with so little scrutiny speaks volumes about your own critical thinking skills. to land on an appeal to ridicule as your coup de grace is just the finishing touch one might expect.
You're obviously just baiting, but for readers on, I'll post this hyper simplified situation I commented already.
5 total voters.
2 for trump 1 for Biden 1 for Mickey and 1 abstains
Trump wins.
If the mickey and the abstain voters don't want trump, their best action was to vote for Biden, as that would have achieved:
2 for trump
3 for Biden
0 for mickey.
Biden wins.
In competitive locations, votes are a scarce resource.
By not voting for Biden, you have helped trump, and not achieved your own voting goal all the while. You never voted for trump, but your actions aided his victory.
Just repeating it and sticking your head in the sand doesn't make it so.
If you feel capable of refuting the point, lay out any example you can provide, that meets my original premise. Edit I provided a clear simple case to discuss the situation, which you haven't been able to refute.
(Edit: For clarity), I acknowledge many places in the US are NOT competitive, thus the scarce vote concept is much less relevant. Location was always in my comments, so that is not a goalpost move.
There are 2 competitive candidates for president. One of them WILL be president.
How you get there is a mix of direct and indirect actions. You do not seem able to grasp or refute that indirect actions can have an influence on the frontrunners.
you're inability to tell the truth plainly and without hyperbole or fallacy has resulted in you spreading election misinformation. all I've done here is try to keep the rhetoric honest
We are reading it, we agree with the other guy. You're wrong and also appear arguing in bad faith or with the least possible effort.
If by inaction or dumb action you get the candidate elected that you least support, you have helped said candidate into office. You had the power to choose, and from their perspective you helped them. You can argue that by not supporting a candidate that's all you did, but the pyrrhic "victory" here is just moving the reference frame. Voting is teleological yo: why you did what you did doesn't matter, only the outcome does.
If the race is neck and neck, and you vote for Micky mouse because you wanna feel superior to everyone around you, all you've done is make things worse.
Depending on your location, you may have directly helped trump.
That does not say "a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for trump".... There are explicit conditionals that you're ignoring lol
This may not be as credible as your meme, but CNN points out the “spoiler effects” of third-party candidates. They very rarely even receive a Electoral College vote.
I’ll say this: Though the result is the same, I feel much more okay with posts pushing a specific third party they’re inspired by than going the same “anybody else” route we take with Biden without actually naming someone or listing policies.
When they don’t name anyone, I’m more likely to agree with you it’s just a distraction unwilling to focus on a genuine plan of action.
I've seen very few and far between people who both oppose Trump and say they wouldn't vote for Biden, but to those few even if you calmly, carefully, and empathetically explain to them that not voting for Biden will empower Trump: they don't want to listen.
Why we don't have a handful of 30-something people with brains to choose from I don't know. We're so fucked with this 2 party system- old fart who isn't a dick vs old fart who is literally a dick that speaks dick-speak isn't acceptable
It's not about who will vote for who. It's about creating controversy around Biden to suppress voter turn out.
You could vote for a cow painted purple for all I care but if you're spending all your energy pointing out Bidens obvious flaws and giving Trump a pass you're actions tell me all I need to know.
Hell, I don't even care if you were in the street protesting but to sit back and meme Trump into office is just bullshit.
Dude, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's not going to work if he doesn't win over the progressives.
We are arguing the same thing. I'm blaming Democrats for it, and you are blaming the voters for it.
From my perspective, Biden is going to lose because Democrats refuse to appease their constituency. From your perspective, that constituency just has to suck it up and deal with it. We are very much both frustrated by the same reality.
My perspective is the election is in 6 months and Biden isn't going to solve Palestine in those 6 months and voters aren't going to solve Biden with no means to do it.
Leaves one option. That option is stop trying to suppress turn out and stick around after inauguration. I wish you were here in the last 3 years when it was absolute crickets.
Again, we are fundamentally agreeing on the same idea. Biden is our nominee. He's the best we have to work with, so he's got to be putting in the effort as to not lose.
We are not going to get anywhere in this conversation because we are agreeing. We just have different solutions.
I find it kind of funny that you think Biden is incapable of moving on any issue at all. I'm actually the optimist here. I think he's capable of it. It's almost like you know how crappy of a candidate he is, but don't want to admit it.
I've been raising the flag on Biden for fucking 3 years and the second the election is on the line people are out here suppressing voter turn out. The window has past. You gotta be thick.
Buddy, Ive been sounding the alarm far longer than that. Clear back in thw days before Lemmy. Im just telling you he's going to lose because he's unpopular, and must become popular to win.
So many people don't know how a bluff (a negotiation rather) that works works...all those shamers how can they be that stupid, asking you to secure your vote for Joe TODAY while it amounts to condone a genocide. Calling you stoopid and pretending to know if and how you will actually vote on election day. A sensible person is gonna do the sensible thing in November. The sensible thing to do today is to try and stop a fucking ongoing genocide. If it has to take the shape of a threat to not vote, one should ask oneself how the fuck did it come to this, but so be it
“My PRIMARY goal is to have GOOD THINGS for the UNITED STATES which is why I am deeply concerned about Joe Biden and will NEVER vote for him.”
“Yeah what good things? Fixing the problems definitely sounds like a priority, I love good things.”
“Joe Biden FUCKED UP our marijuana policy and BETRAYED US which is why I cannot POSSIBLY support him and I can’t see why you are CRAZY AND CONFUSED and said I am a Trump supporter.”
“That sounds like a big reform, which yes it would be great, but it’s not like failing to pass it means sliding into fascism, also he pardoned everyone in federal prison for possession, and the Democrats have advanced multiple bills for federal decriminalization which the Republicans keep defeating (*), and Biden requested the DEA to reschedule it. Is there something else you would you want him to do, on his end?”
(there is an interval of silence)
(*) slight oversimplification
“My PRIMARY goal is to have GOOD THINGS for the UNITED STATES like GOOD MARIJUANA POLICY which is extremely important which is why I CANNOT support Joe Biden and will plan NEVER to vote for him. This message will repeat in thirty seconds from now.”
You can also point out that the President cannot decriminalize a drug. That requires an act of Congress. This is the link to the bill most likely to see a vote. It includes record expungement as well as decriminalization. It’s cosponsored by 113 Democrats and Matt Gaetz, ‘cause he knows how to party.
I am (once again, unfortunately) voting against Trump. That means there’s really only one box for me to check in our rigged, corrupt, popular-vote-undermining, first-past-the-post system.
And yet I still don’t consider that a vote for Genocide Joe, it is just a vote against Trump in the only way our two-party oligarchy will allow.
I respect your decision even though I can't vote for Genocide Joe. I'm so tired of people trying to guilt me into voting for him like they have a say over my vote.
