DNC and DNC shills expecting free votes because they're democratically funding a genocide instead of fascistly funding a genocide
You morons in November when Trump inevitably wins due to horrendous voter turnout in November from former Democrat voters and not because the 5 communists in the USA made the difference
It's like a copy paste of Trump v Clinton and clearly no one learned their lesson from literally 8 years ago.
Fielding bad candidates because you can't be bothered to do the bare minimum has been a thing forever. As a friendly reminder, the thing that scared the DNC and RNC the most in my lifetime wasn't Trump, 9/11, or anything like that. It was Ross Perot.
They'd both burn everything rather than let anyone else play the game.
The youths wait till the last minute until midnight to get involved then they see how horrible shit is and get all morally frustrated. If you give a shit and want to know how this works LOOK AT VOTING RECORDS. Don't just focus in on your pet issue.
America itself was founded on Genocide. Are you also pushing for the return of land to indigenous people? How about slavery and reparations? Oil seeking imperialism?
Yes, pet issue fits.
Edit:
How about even just a slight push for better conditions for indigenous people?
You don't actually care about what we are up against and would rather see more people die in a violent revolution then even lift a finger. A revolution that ends in a Christo-fascist state because if you haven't noticed one side is actually united in their own insanity.
Or was I supposed to stop because you dismissed me and are riped in moral relativism.
Oh no we can't do the right thing now! We did the wrong thing 100 years ago and the rules of consistency mean we must keep doing the wrong thing no matter what!1111!!
Remember some of these people then and now were inauthentic posters trying to poison the well and promote political inaction disguised as enlightened policy positions.
Alot of people got the memo, as evidence by the complete lack of interest in 3rd parties by the left this go round. Still not enough of us though,
It's entirely the Democratic Party's fault if Trump wins another term. But their online cheerleaders are so keen to blame Communists who are such a miniscule percentage of the voting population. Are you going to start Muslim-bashing as well if they don't turn out in huge numbers to vote for Joenicide?
The sole "Trump will be worse" pitch and constant hostility is absolutely pathetic, and not an election winning strategy. Even your own party leadership knows it. The disconnect between the actual party and it's online supporters is huge.
Chips act, green energy, union empowerment, student debt, marijuana reform, etc etc etc. Anyone that says Biden isn’t doing anything is wilfully ignorant.
100%. Biden is a great president who has accomplished a shitload. I appreciate everyone of you out here who can ignore the bullshit and see the signal.
I'm waiting for the full student debt relief and pardons for everyone currently jailed for marijuana. It's better than nothing, but not enough to change the slow decay. Third party or bust.
There's a thing called jurisdiction. They can't give debt relief for everyone, just the ones with federal loans. They can't pardon everyone for marijuana, just those with federal offences. Most marijuana offences are state charges. So guess what? If you want state charges to be pardoned, you better vote in state elections!
Yeah you're bust all right voting for third party. Even if your third party wins (lol) you're going to find that little thing called jurisdiction.
Is it the Democratic Party’s job to spoon-feed everyone the reasons why trump is bad, and despite the lack of press, explain the good things they have done? Because it’s people like you who just spout the negatives and never point out the positives to balance against the potential fallout. You know, the line that goes like “The Dems have absolutely done [bad shit] but we have this [good shit over here] and obviously the republicans and trump want to undo all the [good shit] and are going to do their damndest to impose a fascist dictatorship.
The sole "Trump will be worse" pitch and constant hostility is absolutely pathetic…
Bullshit. It’s a valid reason. Again, I refer to my comment that there is some implication that people need to be spoon-fed. People need to take some damn responsibility and learn the differences themselves, that’s why we have the premise (as deeply flawed as it seems these days) that the people are supposed to be in charge of who gets elected. So if all you hear is “Trump bad” that’s your own damn fault for not taking a few minutes to figure out why, not the democratic party’s fault.
That's exactly the point. It's no mystery the GOP are undoing what the Dems achieve..literally a front page article where a gop appointed judge strikes down a Biden policy.
Edit: The more I think about this the more I realize how fucking dumb this argument is.
Two kids are asked to complete a project together. One does all the research and writes the whole report because the other was busy reading their Bible and posting on 4chan.
You're saying they both flunk and it's kid 1s fault.
I could practicallly take my thumbs and force them in your eyeballs I hate you so much.
So I actually agree with your point (minus the part where you physically want to gauge my eyeballs out), but it's still not going to make me vote Dems. Maybe if the Dems were actually perfect and I agreed with their policies, but I just supported them previously because they're "better than the Republicans". I'm tired of the BS, so now I'm camp third party. I don't expect you to change your mind off the Dems either, but I just wanted to give you a better idea how I got here.
Sorry bout the eye gouging thing but just thinking about bullshit group projects gets me worked up. It's hard to actually be mad at you because 33% of Americans don't even vote.
My thing is voting records. People hate it because it's boring and there isn't the whole drama but the dems typically vote in ways I agree with. 80% of the time I would guess. No they don't win and it's one thing to vote a way when there is a whip and you know the outcome before hand but this is how I align myself. It's also why I'm not a fan of Biden. Legislatively, voting records, we are not aligned. He has some real big stinkers on the record. If it weren't for the people around him I'd write him off too. I can't though because my people are behind him.
Are you going to start Muslim-bashing as well if they don’t turn out in huge numbers to vote for Joenicide?
I don't do the muslim bashing thing, but I do think the TikTok influencers convincing impressionable youth that A) there's a genocide happening (it's not) and B) not voting will make things better.
Foreign policy is foreign policy. Global interests don't change on a dime. The main difference between Biden and Trump is that Trump would be cheerleading Netanyahu and telling him he shouldn't be doing targetted airstrikes but instead carpet bomb entire neighborhoods. The US woulb be making zero effort in negotiating a ceasefire and there would not be a pier built to help distribute food.
Only an idiot would think that demanding the faculty of a university to do someone the bring about the end of a foreign conflict will accomplish anything. But the point of these pro-palestinian movements isn't to accomplish anything, it's all performative. It's just a reason to hang out in a tent with some friends and get social media clout.
Anyone with half a brain that actually cared about Palestinians would be voting for Biden and doing everything they could to get him re-elected because it's obvious how much worse things will be for Palestinians with Trump as President. Like how much do you think Trump will do to help in reconstruction of Gaza after the war is over?
But the Pro-Palestinian movement is mostly performative and they don't really care about Palestinians. If more Palestinians die, it'll be a good reason to have more fun get-togethers to "protest", more money to be made for TikTok influencers, and more donations to terrorist factions in Palestine. The suffering of Palestinians is very profitable for a lot of people.
Joe Biden cares more about Palestinians than you do.
Yeah a lot of sheltered but edgy teens take this stance. To be bothsidesing, one has to be privileged enough to not notice SCOTUS eroding their neighbors' human rights. Something like mommy and daddy have a fat chunk of capital, living on a college campus, that sort of thing.
Oh, yeah, only the most serious lefties want more fascism in the judiciary. Don't you know after the country collapses into full-on racist fascism, socialism will rise from the ashes? So everyone losing their rights under a dictatorship is fine, we're thinking long term. Climate? What climate?
Bidens pushing legislation that removes all the red tape from stripping leftist orgs of non profit status, and legislation to make ANY CRITICISM AT ALL of Israel legally antisemitic so the Dept of education can strip any school that allows pro Palestinian protests of finding and accreditation.
TLDR Dems love fascism as long as its wearing a blue cape instead of red.
World defederated from two of them them, but not the other way around so they could ALL still see posts from World; World just doesn't see posts from them.
SURELY the DNC will listen if they don't vote, don't run, and don't donate, but post a genocide Joe meme from their phone also made available by genocide while wearing clothes manufactured by a genocidal state on land acquired from an ethnic cleansing. That's the morally upstanding thing to do.
I know, why would they listen to the dipshit normal democratic citizens that donate to their campaigns, volunteer for them, vote for them and support them when they clearly should promote radical and unpopular policies to assuage self-appointed fake left internet pundits that hate and try to smear them, right?
I helped run the phone lines for Biden in 2020. And what did I get? I got shit on. I got to watch my country participate in a fucking genocide. You don't get to support that and then claim it's some radical minority that's the problem. The majority of non republicans want him to at least condition aid if not stop it all together at this point. All he has to do is follow the already written laws he's been ignoring.
Then these fucks disappear after the election is over. If you don't like how the last election went stick around and actually effect change BEFORE everything is on the line.
Well they didn't listen when we did vote so fuck em. And no, participating in Capitalism is not an endorsement of capitalism. Never was, never will be, because participation is enforced.
Democrats spend more time attacking the left than they EVER have Republicans, because their platforms are 95% the same. You don't get to insult half your base, tell them their priorities are bullshit baby dreams, move further right from your already mid right position, then blame those people for your loss.
By telling leftists to eat shit, you're saying you don't need leftists to win. If leftists are the single cause behind every dem loss then its probably time to change your platform to cater to leftists (or just admit that you're fascists that'll take the red fascism instead of the blue fascism before you shift left even a little bit.)
Dems spend all day hammering Rs, but if you are very online in mostly lefty spaces, you only hear about criticisms of the left. Its the online spaces that cause the distortion in views, not that its gonna change.
I think the important takeaway here is that you may hammer R's all you want, but if you want to rely on the left electorate, you have to serve the left electorate.
So the fight really is between "let's at least hold blatant fascism" and "let's tech Dems to listen a bit so that on their next election they would actually cater to the left instead of being lesser evil".
Because right now Dems are just that - lesser evil that doesn't care to align with the leftists.
I have no balls in this game, I'm not even a US citizen, but I see the point they're trying to make.
The left electorate evaporates when election time is over. We were unhappy in 2020 and got Biden in but when push came to shove we lost the mid terms even though we managed to halt a certain "red wave." That should have mobilized us even more but we fizzled because Biden can't do shit with a split congress.
They've been backing a genocide and demonizing the university protests. That's very real, physical things that are on the right the Democrats are doing.
I think that's been a proven case for European parliamentary democracies giving way to right wing and fascist parties. But that's more the reverse: the liberal and center-left move center and then lose.
But US politics doesn't have much leftist policy to shed, or many leftist politicians to exoricate, so it is more that even when Democrats win, policy stays right of center. Which is where the frustrated remark "both parties are the same" comes from, which everyone also shits on.
Since you know, the centre right continually stretches further right like a rubber band.
Dems can't move as far left as you want them to when there's a very real chance of losing. Want it to move left? Give Dems overwhelming and consistent wins and they can listen to the more left part of their party and move left.
Congressionally and locally: not nearly as much. There's a pretty solid track record especially since the Citizens United and SpeechNow decisions of the Democratic Party either mobilizing against progressives and for conservatives in primaries where there isn't even a GOP threat.
They even took down Katie Porter because she didn't kiss the ring of Dianne Feinstein.
But yeah, the acute threat the GOP poses gives them harm reduction status.
Took down Katie Porter? What fucking planet do you live on? I like Porter and have donated to her in the past, but she voluntarily gave up her seat to try to run for Senate, and she didn't finish top 2, and didn't get as much support as Adam Schiff.
Like fuck Feinstein but she had nothing to do with Porter not making it to the general for a Senate seat run.
The DNC funded Schiff hard and even funded the GOP candidate for attack ads against her. I mean you're objectively correct: she lost. But she was fighting two parties by the time the primary happened.
She announced her intent to run too early back when effort was still being made to "Weekend At Bernies" Feinstein, which waa her undoing.
Look, I like Porter more than Schiff, and if you want to blame Pelosi (not Feinstein) for being unfair in galvanizing support for Schiff before the contest was even started really, that's one thing.
But the main reason Schiff won is just that he's a more prominent politician who has a wider base of support. Democrats writ large prefer him to Porter, that's primarily why he won imo.
If this were a parliamentary system, sure. But our constitutional framework does not produce overwhelming, consistent victory. Like, ever, in its history.
May I remind you after the Bush administration, Obama won both the primaries and the overall election by campaigning from the left, not the center. And he won by a very wide margin.
Hmmmmm how ever could you influence who would win an election? Hmmmmmmm, Let's see. Oh yeah, by voting.
May I remind you that Obama was not running against an incumbent? (Not to mention that he mostly ran on hope. And after the war mongering Bush it really didn't take much.) When running against an incumbent, you have to go to the centre. That was how Clinton and Biden won. And we're back to how do you move things left? Simple: By voting. By giving consistent and overwhelming victories.
Biden isn't running against an incumbent, he is the incumbent. You want him to run from the center against an incumbent, OK. But then what? Run from the center again? That doesn't make sense.
Again, "consistent, overwhelming" victory is a fantasy. Control of the executive and legislative branch exchanges hands every few terms. That's just how this rule-set and this electorate play out.
JFC Now you're just playing dumb. Biden ran against the incumbent, do I have to specify I'm talking 2020? When Biden faced off against the incumbent in 2020 he had to run centre. JFC. And guess fucking what, that carries on. Especially when it's a rematch of the same guys, with the same policies, the same MO. Why do I bother when you play dumb. (Not that he's even announced what he's running on yet for 2024, but we can take a good guess).
Yeah you're back to excusing yourself for not voting. Jeez you know how you could change that changing hands stuff? By voting. Seriously why am I bothering when all you do is make excuses for not voting. If you want to continue you're gong to have to do better.
Please avoid the r-term, I understand as someone who grew up online in the 2000s that it's a habit that takes time to break, but not using it provides relief to many who are sensitive to its use due to its derogatory history.
They haven't been duped. At least not in the same way. Russia has no real influence over them. It's an enemy of my enemy thing. The United States has been trending heavily undemocratic for the last 50+ years minimum. And they don't want that to change. Their complaint is that they aren't the ones in charge. They DON'T want to make things better. They just want to be the ones hurting those that disagree. And the only way they can do that is to make things worse. To the point of collapse.
It's just goals aligning. Not some big conspiracy. Or brainwashing. Republicans, Russians, Chinese, and ML all see themselves benefiting from collapse.
The United States has been trending heavily undemocratic for the last 50+ years minimum.
See, I can't agree with this. Fifty years ago, our democracy was still in a MUCH worse position than today.
Our current democratic decline dates to the Citizens United decision. Not that we were perfect before that, or even necessarily 'good', but in general, the US has gotten more democratic since 1974, not less. Even despite Reagan.
See, I can't agree with this. Fifty years ago, our democracy was still in a MUCH worse position than today.
How so? Union membership was at all time highs, we'd just had FDR's new deal. Labor and non ownership classes have never benefited from government in a similar fashion since that time.
That isn't to discount the civil rights act etc. More people being represented is good. The problem being, that while more people were "technically" represented. Everyone collectively has less to show for it. With inequality approaching or exceeding even the guilded age. Because the government increasingly represents only a single class of person.
How so? Union membership was at all time highs, we’d just had FDR’s new deal. Labor and non ownership classes have never benefited from government in a similar fashion since that time.
In the 1970s?
That isn’t to discount the civil rights act etc. More people being represented is good. The problem being, that while more people were “technically” represented. Everyone collectively has less to show for it. With inequality approaching or exceeding even the guilded age. Because the government increasingly represents only a single class of person.
I feel like 'technically' is doing a lot of fucking lifting here.
What about the '70s? The 70s itself isn't very descriptive. On the whole being inexorably tied to Nixon really pushes home the point that things were becoming less democratic then. It's also the time period in which the modern techniques of gerrymandering were being developed and explored. As a direct response to civil rights. Again less democratic.
And technically is an accurate term. What is democracy? Is democracy just being able to cast a ballot, that then gets creatively discarded. Or is something beyond casting a ballot required. Remember, Russia is technically a democracy too. As was the Soviet Union. I would argue that the US has had a better record on that front domestically. But it's a low bar. Not necessarily something we should be bragging about. Are we really a democracy? We should be. But are we actually.
Yeah. All the fighting I do with tankies and their useful idiots doesn't compare to the nightmare that would be wading into a right-dominated community. In left-communities that aren't run by ban-happy tankies, propaganda has a harder time taking hold, because there's nothing leftists love more than fighting other leftists; and in a fight, all other things being equal, reality advantages the side championing it.
You're absolutely right, it IS ridiculous how many supposedly left-leaning people are willing and even eager to see a Trump presidency to 'get one over on the shitlibs'.
The convention could always select a different democrat. Or it could have if the democrats hadn't purposely put it after the ballot deadline in many states so Biden would already be on the ballot, before the convention that supposedly nominates him.
It's just not the either/or situation you're looking for. It's entirely possible to be so disgusted by the state of American politics that you just don't vote. Or you vote third party. Your memes are having a negative impact at this point. Nobody who was on the fence is going to say, "Oh gosh I don't want to be commie, I better vote Joe!"
There is a side that could be worth supporting. But you're making very hard to do so. Biden could win the election today by cutting off military aid to Israel. Instead he has goons out here threatening everyone. So far I'm not sure what I get for supporting him. You guys talk about plan 2025, but this kind of bullshit used to just be Republican stuff. So from where I'm sitting it looks like the DNC is giving up on Democracy too. It's certainly giving up on listening to it's voters.
That's a coherent paragraph. Each sentence is meant to support and provide context for the others. So taking it all out of context isn't helpful in decoding it's meaning.
Team blue is team bad. It's just that team red is even worse.
But if we always follow this logic, we may as well allow them both to enshittify eternally, because reps will be just a bit more evil, and dems won't have the incentive to improve, either.
The question is: at which point should Dems be taught a lesson and how? Is current voting a good avenue for that?
The best time to plant a tree was yesterday. The next best time is today. As you point out, this doesn't get better if we keep doing the same thing. So now is the time.
They want Donald to win so that China gains ground. They claim to love leftist economies but are simping for countries that produce plenty of billionaires.
The trade war with China might be a way to assert US dominance and squash the competition, but in the grand scheme of things, protectionist policies are very bad for the global economy and global progress.
And leftists typically are internationalists, putting global efforts above national ones.
So it's not just love for China, even if Lemmygrad and Hexbear folks are really unhealthily obsessed with the country.
An authoritarian self-proclaimed 'leftist' who loudly decries anything that's not 100% in-line with their desires as 'shitlib' policy that must be opposed even at the cost of ushering in actual fascism. This actual fascism is also often described by tankies as 'not that bad' or 'the exact same' as the 'shitlib' policies they oppose. Dissenters are inevitably reactionaries who must be (often literally) crushed, as they don't reflect the TRUE will of the people (ie whatever the opinion of the tankie is).
loudly decries anything that's not 100% in-line with their desires as 'shitlib' policy that must be opposed even at the cost of ushering in actual fascism
Wrong. They love and support Russia, China and N-Korea for some weird reason
The issue here is that Dems also go to the fascist state, they just always do it a bit slower to still be selected because "at least they are not THAT bad".
The question is, at what point should they learn a lesson to revise their playbooks and stop the corruption and enshittification? What should that lesson be? Could voting them out push them to pursue a more fair policy that actually caters to the needs of the people?
Why is the the voters obligation to vote for shitty candidates rather than in the candidates to earn the vote? Biden is looking at a close race and the majority of voters want a cease fire.
Why is the the voters obligation to vote for shitty candidates rather than in the candidates to earn the vote?
It's our obligation as voters, as people entrusted with political power, to do what we can to steer our polity towards the least destructive and immoral path that we can.
"JOE BIBEN HASN'T EARNED MY VOTE" doesn't mean jack fucking shit. The point of a citizen's duty is not to suck off the right people - it's to protect one's fellow citizens, and ideally, members of other polities as well.
Voting isn't a fucking judgement of who's moral enough to go to democracy fucking heaven - voting is a judgement of who is least objectionable in steering the future of the polity - including considering the likelihood of success.
Sorry that using political power responsibly is such a foreign concept to you.
Biden is looking at a close race and the majority of voters want a cease fire.
The majority of voters want a cease-fire. You want to tell me what the majority of voters want the US to do to achieve a ceasefire?
Most US voters are not in favor of more stringent terms than what Biden has already proposed.
This idea that the US electorate is as left as the Fediverse is just... fucking bizarre.
You dont get those changes by just blindly voting against the Republicans. You have to actually pressure your candidates into supporting what you want. Companies and lobbiests are able to do this with giant sacks of cash. Normal people do it by protesting and making demands of their officials to force a response. Showing nothing but contempt for anti-war protests is always a bad look for a president running for reelection.
Biden has all the leverage on Israel to make them stop the killing. He can threaten to pull military aid, send in US forces to distribute humanitarian aid, or put sanctions on Israel. All of those would stop the killing, making people angry at the US response willing to vote for Biden, paving a path for his re-election. Why are you so against him forcing Israel to stop the genocide if it is his only path to victory?
Because it's not his only path to victory, and it's not even certain that it IS a path to victory. A majority of DEMOCRATS, much less the general public, still approve of the current level of support to Israel or support INCREASED support to Israel.
Do I want Biden to pull out of Israel? Yes. Do I understand why the strategic political reasons why it's not being done, other than Biden being an old dinosaur? Also yes. Do I think that welcoming Trump into the White House will improve the matter? Fuck no.
Those voters who approve of funding Israel's genocide should really suck it up and vote for Biden even if he slashes funding. After all they aren't crazy "tankies" who would dare withhold their vote because they don't approve of what he's doing.
Those voters who approve of funding Israel’s genocide should really suck it up and vote for Biden even if he slashes funding.
Absolutely they should. And absolutely I bitch out anyone who thinks that Biden 'not being pro-Israel enough' is a reason not to vote for him as a fascist enabler, at minimum.
After all they aren’t crazy “tankies” who would dare withhold their vote because they don’t approve of what he’s doing.
No, they tend to be fascists and theocrats instead who will gleefully withhold their vote, just as tankies do.
This is what democracy looks like. Fighting to keep a coalition of unlike people together because the alternative is getting something that's worse on every fucking level.
I take it you'd have a problem with people calling the Democratic party fascist but you seem to think such a significant part of their base is fascist that they have to implement fascist policy to appease them. What is that if not fascism? If the DNC actually has morals they'd amputate that part of their base and appeal to new voters because they look less ghoulish. If the Democrats lose it isn't going to be because a few online leftist withheld their vote, it's going to be because they failed to get any fresh voter turnout. A third of Americans don't vote, and a larger portion of that third is young and PoC, more likely to be strongly against the genocide.
I take it you’d have a problem with people calling the Democratic party fascist but you seem to think such a significant part of their base is fascist that they have to implement fascist policy to appease them.
A significant part of the American electorate supports fascist policies, specifically, with regards to Israel. We can debate the causes all day long, but the fact remains.
What is that if not fascism?
Democracy. As it is necessarily compromise with the will of the majority.
If the DNC actually has morals they’d amputate that part of their base and appeal to new voters because they look less ghoulish.
If the DNC had morals, they'd lose, huh? Yeah, Trump rounding up people into concentration camps AND funding Israeli genocide looks much better. /s
A third of Americans don’t vote, and a larger portion of that third is young and PoC, more likely to be strongly against the genocide.
So, your plan is that, if the Dems take one of the least important issues to voters (yes, including young voters), radically change it to alienate their most reliable demographics to appeal to their least reliable demographics, that is the real path to victory?
You guys spend so much of your time trying to convince peaceful people to support genocidal actions instead of supporting the warhawks changing to peace.
You are choosing to spend your time supporting genocidal actions instead of supporting rejecting them.
We do, however, need to minimize the cheap talking points you parrot, like Republicans chanting "RAISE THE TERROR ALERT" in 2004 like it fucking meant something, in order to avoid low-information voters being swayed into voting in favor of fascism like you lot want.
Tankies like to use military force to support their actions.
So calling someone who is doing their level best to stop using military force to enforce others wants, is patently false and shows that you don’t actually know what a tankie is.
How do you ever expect to get new voters if you only pay attention to what your base wants? And why do you think most of the Democrats who support Israel are bloodthirsty fascists who will switch their vote to Trump if Biden changes course on the matter? These political parties have had major shifts in the past and it can happen again. That's why I think one of the most important things we can do is shift people's ideology through protest and conversation. If America is so conservative we will never get anywhere by just showing up to vote and doing nothing else.
You are emphasizing the need to win the election as if it is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else. But under that view we shouldn't even politically engage with people who are already planning to vote blue because we might make them change their minds. It's important to instill voters and non voters alike with more progressive values, even if it threatens to make them vote in a way we don't want. I don't even believe the DNC believes in winning elections over all else, if something would win them votes but upset their benefactors in another way for example it might be off the table. The DNC doesn't believe in things like harm reduction, they are playing a completely different strategy game than voters are. Trust me, they are not funding Israel because they believe it is what they must do in order to stop concentration camps.
How do you ever expect to get new voters if you only pay attention to what your base wants?
Man, liberals are the Democratic base.
And why do you think most of the Democrats who support Israel are bloodthirsty fascists who will switch their vote to Trump if Biden changes course on the matter?
I don't. I simply think they're of a demographic that votes more often, and thus, there is a strategic consideration which is not unreasonable to mull over, that a change in Biden's position will not necessarily be a net gain in voters.
That’s why I think one of the most important things we can do is shift people’s ideology through protest and conversation. If America is so conservative we will never get anywhere by just showing up to vote and doing nothing else.
Man, I absolutely agree with that. I say time and time again that the positions of absolutism so many progressives want to take are only going to be viable with a LOT of fucking groundwork.
30 years ago, supporting gay marriage was a death sentence for a national political career. But if progressives got together in the 90s and said "We aren't going to support anyone EXCEPT candidates who support gay marriage", LGBT rights would not be as firmly placed as they are today.
You can't win every battle immediately, and that's what I'm arguing against. If you don't win the battle to change US policy on Palestine before the election, the alternative is not, should not, and must not be "Well, it's okay if Trump wins, then", because that will do everything BUT move us in the right direction.
You are emphasizing the need to win the election as if it is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else.
Considering the consequences of this election, it absolutely is. Have you not been following the whole MAGA movement and the GOP these past few years? We had to fend off an autocoup in 2021, and its only gotten worse. This election is a political goal that takes precedence over everything else, unless you're fine with never have a say again in a fascist-controlled regime.
The DNC doesn’t believe in things like harm reduction, they are playing a completely different strategy game than voters are. Trust me, they are not funding Israel because they believe it is what they must do in order to stop concentration camps.
The DNC isn't planning on destroying the last pieces of democracy in America, though, so regardless of their reasons for funding Israel, they're the superior choice to the RNC, which is in favor of funding Israel and dismantling US democracy.
To all the people supporting genocidal actions, we do no give a fuck what you think.
When you decide that you are not ok with sending more bombs to continue killing children then we can talk.
Until then I hope you all experience exactly what you want other people to.
So when members of Hamas, the current representative government of Gaza, talk about the genocide of the Jews, you say...?
Me, personally, I say that wishing democide on a population is fucking horrendous regardless of what that population supports, but I understand you tankies adore bloodshed more than I do.
No, you're 'just' saying that the murder of millions of Americans is okay because most have opinions on foreign policy that aren't aligned with your's. Much better!
Also, in this comment thread, I haven't called you a tankie. Apparently I did when you called for America to burn for the sin of wrongthink.
I have very clearly said multiple times in the past that hummus are a bunch of tunnel rats whose extinction won’t bother me in the slightest, same for the IDF, maybe one day we will be able to respect Israel again, but they have managed to turn my default view of Israelis from neutral to negative.
I have very clearly said multiple times in the past that hummus are a bunch of tunnel rats whose extinction won’t bother me in the slightest, same for the IDF, maybe one day we will be able to respect Israel again, but they have managed to turn my default view of Israelis from neutral to negative.
Does that justify calling for Israel to burn?
Me, personally, I am a supporter of military force in select circumstances. I would love it if there was the political will to impose a no-fly zone over Gaza, IDF casualties be damned.
But I still wouldn't call for Israel to burn, no, not even knowing that Gazan genocide is still widely popular in the country. Not just as a matter of ignorant and indirect support, as in the US, but as a matter of direct and intimately understood support.
Likewise, calling for America to burn because a majority of the people here understand international politics about as well as they understand domestic politics (ie not at all) is fucking unconsciable, and what I called you out for in the beginning.
I don’t support killing anyone, I don’t support military action, and almost every problem we have in the Middle East right now can be directly assigned as a consequence of us action.
I think we just need to walk away from the Middle East altogether.
At one time Israel might have been deserving of our help, but they have repeatedly tried to drag more countries into this to try to force us military action.
That said if one of said bad policies is killing people, then yeah I don’t care what happens to them.
Same as I don’t care what happens to hummus or most of the IDF.
It sucks for the people like me who don’t want to support genocide, but if the majority votes it in, we can’t say that it wasn’t legitimate
Okay, but that's not what you said. You didn't say "If America decides to nuke itself, it deserves it." You said that America deserves to burn if it continues supporting Israel's genocide, even lukewarmly.
Until then I hope you all experience exactly what you want other people to.
Tell me you're white and know you're not gonna be the one who actually burns without telling me you're white and know you're not gonna be the one who actually burns.
You're saying that you are ok with Israel slaughtering Palestinians so long as you can continue your standard of living. "Never Again" doesn't have a secret clause saying we shouldn't stop genocide if it means people may be harmed in the process.
You don't want Trump to take over the US and institute his fascist policies? You should be leaning on the Democrats to actually try and stop him, rather than going after those who are trying to actually stop fascism as it pops up.
"We think any amount of genocide is unacceptable, that's why we think it is imperative to threaten the democrats with the possibility of letting more genocide happen here too if they don't stop supporting genocide, and shut up it's not supporting genocide when we do it because we're right!"
The Israeli government has said they want to remove every Palestinian from Gaza and the West Bank. There is literally no more genocide that is able to happen right now
Where have i said that I support doubling down? People thinkthat their vote doesn't matter as is. And asking someone who is already apathetic to voting to vote for someone who supports genocide isn't going to make them want to vote any more. It's a rigged game so they won't play. You should be mad at Biden for not trying to engage with those voters and instead locking them up and using police violence against them.
There are two choices in this coming election, effectively. Trump or Biden.
If one loses, the other wins.
You want to guess what contributing to Biden's loss will cause?
Go ahead. Take a few swings.
And asking someone who is already apathetic to voting to vote for someone who supports genocide isn’t going to make them want to vote any more
Someone who is already apathetic to voting is already not a very good target for voting outreach. You're not really making "Have the least reliable voting bloc since we started tracking such things be the lynchpin of the strategy to defeat fascism" sound any more reasonable than it was previously.
It’s a rigged game so they won’t play.
If they think it's a rigged game, what benefit will appealing to their desired policies have?
You should be mad at Biden for not trying to engage with those voters and instead locking them up and using police violence against them.
Oh God, not this line again. It doesn't matter that Biden at no point has advocated the use of police violence against peaceful protesters, he's definitely the one behind local police continuing the policy of being absolute shitheads, as they have for the past [checks notes] century and a half of US policing.
Yes, there are two choices. So i support people who are trying to make the less terrible one better. Meanwhile you want people to just shit up and support genocide.
Meanwhile you want people to just shit up and support genocide.
Oh, is that what I want? I guess calling the Israeli genocide a genocide and advocating for the total removal of US aid from Israel is support of genocide.
Or is it because I don't regard Trump as winning as a reasonable alternative to Biden that makes me a genocide supporter?
I can find you people saying exactly that while claiming to be left-wing.
They are saying it is inevitable if Biden continues down this path.
Their proposal for course-correction is "If Biden takes up a position that is currently unpopular with the vast majority of Americans, including a majority of Democrats, his numbers will improve"
You have never trumpers, that’s you, your vote is locked and Biden could dick down a toddler on live tv and you wouldn’t care. We can safely disregard these people, they are the Biden equivalent of magats.
So you can either try to get the people who support genocide on your side, or the people trying to stop it.
Either way, we get what we deserve because of the votes.
And apparently, your argument is that you should and must support never having a say in your government again because Biden is evil. Not that it will prevent an evil man from getting into the presidency; no, but you HAVE to punish Biden, no matter what rights you lose everyone else in the process!
I'm asking you to support not being under a fascist regime. I'm asking you to support being able to fight for the next four years without having to take up arms. I didn't realize "Please do this so we DON'T have to deal with the prospect of waging war in our own country if we want any sort of change away from a fascist regime" was going to be such a hard-fucking-sell to someone who opposes war.
You are asking me to support someone I disagree with on a fundamental level.
Yeah, welcome to not being part of the majority in a democratic polity. It sucks.
You guys can fight over which genocidal maniac runs the country.
Okay, by not taking a side, you take the side of the victor. If the victor is the genocidal maniac who, instead of expressing hesitance about Israel's genocide, has expressed an eagerness for Israel's genocide to intensify, and to start NUMEROUS genocides here at home, against both racial minorities and GSM, you can rejoice in knowing that you contributed in your own way to his expanded genocide, both in Israel/Palestine and in the US. Not to mention all the other countries he'll 'inspire'. I'm sure Ukraine will be thrilled to have even more of their children kidnapped and tortured, or a suffering a few hundred more Buchas.
I will keep working on supporting people from the bottom up who disagree with sending bombs to kill toddlers.
Great, and the guy who's going to make it harder for you to support people 'from the bottom up' instead of the 'guy who doesn't care what happens as long as things keep chugging'? It's cool if he's in place? You don't mind a stint in the pen for being a filthy lib, or getting sent to the camps with the rest of us?
My payment is me and people I care about not being rounded up, tortured, expelled, or executed at some point during a second Trump administration. It's very valuable to me.
I don't give a fuck that the DNC is filled with listless, lazy, complacent, corrupt shitheads, because 'punishing' them for that by putting a metaphorical gun to my head and blowing my brains out just doesn't seem like a good calculus, especially since fascist regimes always have a place for listless, lazy, complacent, corrupt shitheads anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a punishment for the worst amongst them.
No. There is no moral responsibility to vote for someone who hasn't earned that vote. That's a construct meant to remove the politician's responsibility to their constituents. An Astroturf by the donor class to protect their influence. Stop doing their work for them. They don't care about you beyond how much money you can make them.
No. There is no moral responsibility to vote for someone who hasn’t earned that vote.
Oh, cool, there's no moral responsibility to protect your fellow citizens. Fuck those minorities, herd 'em into camps; Biden didn't earn MY vote, right?
You lot are indistinguishable from fascists in practical effects.
Where's his moral responsibility? Why am I the only one with a moral responsibility? Where's the moral responsibility of his base? Where's your moral responsibility? Is it okay with genocide as long as it's over there? It's okay over there but here crimes a magnitude lower suddenly become a moral imperative?
Why am I the only one with a moral responsibility?
You aren't. You're just the only one with control over your own actions.
Where’s your moral responsibility?
The same place as every other citizen's?
Is it okay with genocide as long as it’s over there?
It's not okay with genocide. Unlike your sense of morality, it regards "More genocide" as a BAD position to take.
It’s okay over there but here crimes a magnitude lower suddenly become a moral imperative?
lmao, what. Tell me more about how murdering minorities here in the USA is a crime "a magnitude lower" than murdering minorities in Israel. Real telling what you think about non-white Americans and GSMs.
You have no morals.
Coming from someone advocating for the deaths of both more Palestinians AND American minorities?
Hi, I'm part of a minority that Donald trump and his sycophants would love nothing more than to herd into camps or eliminate entirely.
Your argument sucks. Calling everyone fascists who doesn't want to vote for your guy isn't going to convince anyone to vote for your guy. Are you trying to convince people Democrats are bad?
Hi, I’m part of a minority that Donald trump and his sycophants would love nothing more than to herd into camps or eliminate entirely.
Playing asspat games with Very Serious People who want to see Donald Trump elected to 'get back at' the evil shitlibs isn't going to convince anyone to vote against fascism. If you're fine with letting people spew pro-fascist rhetoric, I mean, I guess I'll see you in the camps; but personally, I'd like to avoid that fucking fate.
"I wasn't rooting for Trump, I was just sitting by doing absolutely nothing, not even the bare minimum, because genocide doesn't matter to me!" doesn't really have a better ring to it than "I was rooting for Trump".
The point of a citizens duty is not to suck off the right people
spends multiple paragraphs over multiple comments explaining why their entire political ideology is that its a citizens duty to suck off the right people
Idk how we got here. Imo it’s mainly because for some reason, we no longer give agency to republicans.
If voting for a third party is immoral, then 1/3 of the US is being very immoral.
Voting used to be a private choice, hence why you go into a little booth. It was your moral obligation to vote to the best of your abilities, your choice was personal.
If you're still asking a candidate to earn your vote when the other guy is selling copies of the constitution with the 13th and 19th amendments omitted, you're just a fascist who doesn't want the social stigma that comes with being an open fascist.
If you're supporting a candidate giving bombs to a genocidal, ethnostate apartheid regime, while condemning protests against that at home what are you besides a blue fascist?
Someone who remembers the other guy handed that genocidal ethnostate apartheid regime the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights?
"Any amount of genocide is bad, that's why I'm willing to support even more genocide happening if it means those nasty wasty establishment democrats finally l E a R n T h E i R l E s S o N ! ! !"
You're being a vote karen, you're threatening the actually vulnerable to fall in line with what you want and to bring you the party's manager. You're Anne Frank's neighbor if the reason they turned her in was because her parents weren't anti-nazi enough to their liking.
Donald will not do better for you on your wedge issue and he did an insurrection. You want the guy who tweeted nuclear threats to Iran to take over on this conflict? Misguided.
I don't think you understand, having a fascist shithead in charge of the US is precisely the goal of these fine folks on .ml and .hexbear.
They want the us to be as equally fucked and censured as china. It's their only hope for not being the internet's laughingstock for another couple decades.
At the risk of getting downvoted into oblivion, this is not a fair representation of their complaints or desires. Maybe a minority of them want what you described.
It's actually possible for our government to be more democratic if we could remove capitalist interference from our government structure.
It's not a good faith argument. They don't want to question their support for Biden. So instead of actually thinking critically they make shit up so they can dismiss any criticism that would force them to actually think.
The problem is, yes government could and I would argue should be more democratic. But that isn't how Leninism/stalinism/Maoism works. We have problems with adequate representation with two parties. Those groups want only one. And traditionally that party doesn't take kindly to dissent. Rather than listening and adjusting policy to better address people. They simply exclude you from society if you're lucky. Lock you up, brutalize you. And if they don't think they've adequately broken you, kill you.
We need to remove authoritarian and private control of government. Capitalism would follow eventually. The problem is. That's impossible with capitalists and ML alike.
I'd be happy with a social democracy that emphasizes a mixed economy with strong social welfare programs funded by progressive taxation. Examples include the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden).
I don't know how to accomplish that though because the farther we slip into a class dictatorship, the harder it will be to enact progressive taxation. We'd all vote yes to tax the 1% richest more, but that will never be on any ballot for us to choose.
That would absolutely be a great start. But only that. A starting point.
Taxing the rich can be on the ballot. The problem is we often spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves letting the ownership class walk away with everything while we tussle over scraps. They've succeeded in putting a large portion of the population into a nihilistic Fugue state. Only trying to destroy things and hurt the group they've been told is the Boogeyman. Not improving things for themselves or others. As easy and as fun as it can be to ridicule conservatives importantly thought out plans and ideology. We need them. And they need us. If we want to make anything better that is. We need to break through the cynicism and nihilism and convince them that there is a way for things to be better.
The .ml users who are urging everyone to not vote don't agree.
It is obvious that it would be easier to reach better governance without having a wannabe dictator in the executive branch appointing theocratic clowns into judgeships. But they actually want Donald in there to destabilize the US so that China can gain ground.
They don't even deny it, I get reactions from them on a spectrum from "based based based based" to "any amount of collateral damage to minorities or surrounding countries is acceptable as long as colonialists are being genocided."
The main thing I draw issue with is the fact many states are not swing states. If I live in Alabama, what are the odds that biden wins that state?
Tell me, if I live in alabama, will my vote for biden influence the election at all? Or will it come down to voters in michigan or florida or some other swing state.
I do understand the meme, but I also understand that swing states decide the election. Your impact of your vote is determined by your location.
Before I respond, I just need to repeat back to you the argument you've made here. Upon reading it, if you really want to continue, let me know and I'll give you a full response:
"I take issue with the point communicated by this 4-panel comic strip, because some people live in Alabama"
I mean, that’s one way to read the argument, but it isn’t the one I was making. It seems like you are misrepresenting me intentionally.
As you should probably know, votes for the president are not done by people in their states. They are done by electors in the electoral college.
These electors, as per tradition, vote for the victor in their state’s election on the president.
If I live in a deep red state like Alabama, the majority is already voting for Trump. If I want to change that, I won’t be doing that by voting or shitposting on lemmy, I’d have to tireless campaign for a president I don’t like.
You brought up florida in a previous comment, specifically the election with bush. I’m sure you know that florida is a swing state, and therefore is going to be down to the wire on some elections, right?
Alabama is just an example. I don’t live in Alabama, but my state has barely swapped colors in the past, and certainly wont any time soon. Same with New York, or Montana, or Mississippi, or Texas, or many others.
So, to rephrase what I said in the 2nd paragraph more focused language, will my vote matter if I live in a deep red/blue state? Or will the election come down to swing states?
Edit: i’ve reread what you said and jesus fucking bad faith argument batman. You literally ignored half of what I said to smugly say not everyone lives in the one example state I used
Edit: I've pared down my original comment here because after reading it, it came off way too harsh. Hopefully nobody read it.
The meme is intended to convey that withholding a Biden vote could result in a trump victory, and that "teaching Biden a lesson" at the cost of "having a fascist state" is a bad trade.
Your issue is that, it is possible that some peoples votes don't matter at all based on their zip code.
I don't know how else to put this: you aren't refuting the central thesis. You're on a tangent that AT BEST concludes with "well, this doesn't apply to EVERYONE... But it still definitely applies to SOME"
It's not that people's votes possibly don't matter because of their zip code. It's that peoples votes don't matter because of their zip code. There's a lot of bullshit going on with voter suppression, shittily written constitutions, and how representatives are calculated, but the electoral college itself is what decides the election, not the popular vote. And with the electoral college, your location is determinate of how much your vote matters in the election.
The thing is, that does refute the thesis.
If the thesis is "You withheld the one vote that would have prevented fascism", was true, we would either be using a popular vote system for president, which we literally don't, or the person would have to be in a singular swing state that decides the election. This means that the thesis is only true for those who live in swing states, due to the presence of the electoral college.
I googled the current swing states, and I got Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, and New Mexico. The current population of the US is somewhere above 330 million, and the population of the swing states listed is, according to my napkin math, 55 million. I'm assuming the population of voters proportionally is roughly equivalent state to state.
That being said, this means there's roughly 1/6th of Americans whose votes would be representative of this meme.
To call the experience of 5/6ths of Americans tangential is a little silly.
The irony is palpable that you're describing voter suppression as a factor, while literally actively participating in it. Using social media to convince people that their votes aren't important is quite literally an act of voter suppression. Trying to convince people that withholding their vote could not impact outcome, is voter suppression.
You are literally no different than a robocall telling people that the polling stations have closed early. You are a bad faith actor. For anyone who didn't actually read the Muler report and were unsure about what "Russian interference" actually looked like, it's this. It's exactly this.
I never said anything about not voting. I'll be up front that I'm not electoralist (I'm an anarchist) but I also don't care about whether or not people vote or not (I'm an anarchist) because I'd rather be focusing on creating systems that will protect people from fascism (because I'm an anarchist). Fuck, I even vote in my town elections and elections for state representatives because there are genuine fascists running where I live, and in that case it's popular vote. Diversity of tactics and all. But if you think that voting is sufficient to stop fascism though, I have a history book and a bridge to sell ya. And that's why instead of advocating for non-voting, I advocate for activism, direct action, and just fucking fighting fascism where you see it.
The thing is, you are misconstruing what I'm saying. If calling out the fact that someone is saying that voting alone will prevent fascism using a shitty inaccurate meme is convincing people to not vote, then it is impossible to discuss the fact that the electoral college is antidemocratic. If calling out flaws in the system that makes voting unequal is voter suppression, then I don't know how anyone can address the problems in the system.
It's like you think I'm some lemmy.ml tankie or something, a strawman whose views you despise. Instead of engaging with what I said, you swapped over to insults and name calling.
In 2016, the blue team won by 3 million votes and still lost the election. The system is broken. I'll still vote blue, but I don't think it will matter, especially since I'm not in a swing state.
Matters for your more local elections. Those swing states still send a lot of republicans to Congress every election. And control of Congress is pretty damn important.
Maybe the US system doesn't work that way because people keep screaming at everyone who doesn't vote for their one party vs the only other. It's really odd to claim that your vote matters and then yell at anyone who tries to do anything with their vote other than to guarantee their vote for one of two parties. If the argument is to preserve democracy, well, it already looks like we don't have democracy.
It’s because we have a winner-takes-all electoral college system. It encourages domination not cooperation and self-perpetuates because it stifles ideological competition. It’s not merely a social phenomenon.
How are we supposed to break out of such a system? Both parties benefit from this system and will never agree to change it. About a decade ago in Canada, the liberal party claimed they'd carry out election reform if they won. They ended up winning big time, but they refused to do what they promised because it would threaten the power structure.
Your democracy is at stake and you are yelling that we should do democracy harder instead of attempting to keep the democracy destroyer out of office. Carry on though and personally insult me like you did in your last comment.
I’m not American so I don’t have a dog in this fight.
You're not American and don't have a dog in the fight, but you want to explain the electoral system that I participate in to me. Not sure where I insulted you or yelled (no exclamation point or all-caps/bolded words in sight), so it seems like you've completely misinterpreted my post. I didn't say we should "democracy harder", I said we don't have a democracy and that it's just a facade where people get really passionate about voting for one of only two viable options. Kind of hard to save something that doesn't exist. Will things get worse under republicans? Absolutely. Will democrats do anything about that? Absolutely not. They'll keep the office warm until the next time republicans inevitably win back power in this crooked system.
Right, trump vs another candidate. Biden is awful and is the reason why the election is in any kind of jeopardy. But when trump wins in november there'll be no self awareness to be found, that people were promoting an unviable candidate that no one likes.
I love that you lot complain that it's not REAL democracy because the DNC is so sneaky behind the scenes, and then in the same breath demand that the DNC undemocratically appoint someone as their candidate who appeals to you and your fellows, voters be damned.
And you wonder why everyone thinks of you as fascists.
It's the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not? They had a farce of a primary this year, so the only hope left is a hail mary out of the convention.
It’s the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not?
Oh, so now you DON'T care about democracy in the party. How convenient, how your ideals change depending on which allows you to scream "BOTH SIDES" the loudest.
Democracy in the party flew the coop when we didn't have a real primary this year. Having a single candidate is not democracy. It's a rubber stamp oligarchy.
Why wasn't democracy destroyed then? C'mon, show a little consistency! Go ahead, it's not like anyone is falling for the "Very Concerned And Democratic Voter" at this point. It's quite clear that you don't give a single good goddamn about democracy except insofar as it allows you to undermine anyone who isn't a fascist. Like how you decried the DNC for not being democratic enough and then immediately pivoted to claiming the DNC should disregard the voters entirely.
I never said democracy as a whole was destroyed. I said the party is looking for people to rubber stamp it's oligarchs. If you want to be dismissive that's fine but at least keep up.
And that you only have the option (realistically) to vote for people that other voters want to be in politics. As a conversation with other voters will quickly show, is a depressing concept.
Progressives are excessively difficult to win support from the Dems or Reps due to campaign interests and media spin. The only candidates that recieve enough backing are the ones that pose no danger to the wealthy Capitalists.
That would require getting cozy with billionaires who are opposed to progressive causes. How is that supposed to work? What you're proposing is like starting a game of monopoly where the other players own 90% of the properties already and claiming that if you just play along and hopefully land on properties that aren't already owned then maybe you can trade your way up to establish yourself. How likely do you think this is to work?
The other options include: continuing to be a fringe platform, overthrowing a global system.
Materially, I think developing ever stronger unions (labor and otherwise) who can pool resources to compete in politics. Seconded by a strong push to win many more low level grassroots seats. Conservatives are winning these seats. By winning the lower seats, bureaucratic maneuvers are easier, and consensus is "cheaper".
We had a strong labor movement but it took decades of fighting, the largest economic crisis ever, and two world wars, among other things to establish a middle class as we used to know it. It took much less time for the rich to dismantle that. I agree we should keep working to push the power of labor, but reaching our goals while working within the system is going to be impossible. There's a reason why it took such catastrophic events to actually get anywhere.
I agree that organizing is fantastic, but the sheer difference in quantity of Capital is why it is necessary for a leftist party to focus primarily on delivering needs externally to the system before attempting to win over local and state level elections. Grow from the bottom up.
You need to look up present income inequality statistics. Billionaires are insane and inflation is making normal working class people tighten their budgets a lot. It's a very uphill battle or outfund billionaires.
A movement that helped secure the ADA with their support, and had the full weight of the state security apparatus turned against them. An organization that was so unimpactful the FBI assassinated their leaders.
They also started a lunch program that spread to multiple cities and was successful enough that the government stepped in to start one of their own so that they could not look as bad in comparison.
A movement that helped secure the ADA with their support
Almost a decade after the height of their power, you associate the Black Panther Party's support in giving meals to a disability rights protest as being important to the ADA, which itself would not be passed for another decade and a half after that.
That's... that's really what we're reaching for?
An organization that was so unimpactful the FBI assassinated their leaders.
Yeah, I'm not sure that "The FBI under Hoover, which was terrified that homosexuals were secret Communist infiltrators, was scared of them" is exactly a great rational assessment of their threat.
Loving the Black Panther Party for having a nice ten points and a horrible record of not actually accomplishing anything substantial and murdering members of their own organization for not being sufficiently pure is about what I expected of an ML.
Helping children not starve isn't anything substantial, got it. They had a lasting impact, and the US murdered Fred Hampton because the organization was effective.
Never said I was an ML, but you sure do love lying about others when you get scratched.
Well then we can still pressure Biden to do the right thing. The election is still 6 months away, not next week. Blind support for Biden will not make anything better.
