No one is even saying that. Criticism is valid when they're valid points. You motherfuckers pounce at every chance you get to shit on him even when he does something good. But keep equating him to the guy who tried to overthrow the government and is actively trying to do so again. They even have their agenda right in the open so you can read up on it, champ. Project 2025.
Edit: And to answer your question if anyone supports trump they're a fucking idiot.
Oh shit. Looks like you're saying it right now. I've never equated the two. And yet here you are swearing at me. Now I don't scare easily and I don't let people on the internet tell me how to vote. But this ain't how you get more votes. Fear mongering and threats have never worked for the democrats. So the only "fucking idiots" I see here are you guys, pushing voters away.
Trump supporters ARE idiots. They are not allies, nor do I give a shit about you holding your vote over me. Vote for who you want, but don't cry with what you end up getting.
You're still not getting it. I don't care about you. I'm not going to vote either way because of you. But being an ass doesn't attract voters. That's all I'm trying to tell you.
Oh well if Cardi B said she won't vote for Biden, I guess that's that. If the average person thinks Biden is worse than Trump, then they're either willfully ignorant or just straight up dumb. The milk isn't gonna get any cheaper if Trump wins, bud.
If you think Trump will make your milk cheaper, you're supremely delusional. He's gonna give his corporate buddies massive tax breaks and crank up taxes on everyone else, which includes you if you're not a billionaire.
That's true but his messaging is heads and shoulders better. The longer Biden insists that the people are wrong and the economy is actually doing great, the worse it will get. People aren't dumb, but they aren't geniuses either. They can see their purchasing power is severely restricted from pre-covid times. Without training in economics, politics, and policy; they just aren't going to be able to realize that it was a coincidence more than anything Trump did for them.
I didn't realize accusations of being a cult WEREN'T ad hominems. Good to see there are rules for me, but none for thee. Very typical of fascist rhetoric. :)
Oh no, I mean that in a very real way. There's people available to help you if you want. This level of aggressiveness over someone else not supporting your group is not healthy.
This level of aggressiveness over someone else not supporting your group is not healthy.
I'm so sorry that I don't want to live under a fascist regime that will kill me. I understand that fascists like you think this desire isn't healthy, but I assure you, wanting to live is entirely normal, even for us filthy minorities.
Everyone is mad but you're mostly just sharing your experiences. This is why liberals suck, they never listen and assume they know best. Cardi B is honestly quite politically knowledgeable and articulate from what I have heard from her, but people are hating because she doesn't speak in an upper class educated way.
Even if we assume for the sake of the argument that your ridiculous assertion is true, "Let's do fascism faster" is exactly the kind of bootlicking take I would expect from a tankie.
Never said I was a tankie bruh. A party that bases itself on a slightly more gentle fascism isn't the cart we should be attaching ourselves to.
It will never ever be the right election for y'all liberal centrists who shit post on left folks. It is always the next one. Point is, if we want to be rid of this fucking fascist shit, we have to build solidarity with the left.
Didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to point out tankie behavior like "Faster fascism Good, Actually" unless the poster self-identified, thank you for the information.
What is ideal about 40 years of two-party neoliberal movement to the right bringing us to the brink of fascism?
What is privileged about not having healthcare security, job security, in endless war, the environment going to pot, rent exploding, deregulation, ballooning prison numbers, speculative housing markets? Honestly it feels like the privileged who cannot imagine anything different than the bipartisan system that pits us (those on the left and liberals) against each other.
Not interested in the whole yelling at each other thing, so genuinely asking here. What exactly does not voting democrat get the left in the US? Is the OP's assumption that you want to accelerate fascism actually correct?
So far I haven't seen any reason other than either accelerationism or "because it makes me feel bad" and I refuse to believe that's all that's behind it.
I'm really having a hard time, and I genuinely think it's important to try to understand the points of view and beliefs of those we disagree with, rather than immediately turning to infighting.
I can't tell if you're mocking me, I don't know how much clearer I can be that I just want to know why, if I can't understand why people think it's a good idea then I can't be sure that my views/opinions are actually worth anything.
If you just don't want to talk to me then, that's okay too.
I was agreeing with not shitting on the left and the need for an attempt to understand them. Not a lot of good faith attempts at understanding happening here, just a lot of bullying.
Shifts the policies of the Democratic party so that they appeal to leftists. Not going to get into an ongoing debate, but just so you can't say you haven't seen any other reasons (which sounds fake to me but okay).
Hey, remember when the Dems ran an unlikable centrist candidate as the lesser of two evils because anyone else wasn't "electable" enough in the DNC's view of centrist voters, and that translated into an electoral win via pinched noses in 2016? I'm really glad we got a dynastic compromise candidate that saved Democracy. That strategy worked out so well for Hillary, I can see why they'd go for it again.
Barely anyone protest voted lol. She got more votes from Bernie voters than Trump got from Gary Johnson voters. She lost because she didn't appeal to specific voters in specific states, and the US has a shit democracy that she didn't correctly strategize for.
It was the highest 3rd party vote in, what, 20 years?
She got more votes from Bernie voters than Trump got from Gary Johnson voters. She lost because she didn’t appeal to specific voters in specific states, and the US has a shit democracy that she didn’t correctly strategize for.
Those things are also correct.
My point is not "HILLARY COULD HAVE WON" it was "Pretty clearly, despite widespread discontent on the left and the resulting action of witholding votes to either not vote, write-in, or give to the Green/Libertarian Parties, the DNC did not take losing to a right-wing candidate as proof that they needed to move left in any appreciable way".
I appreciate it. I'm not here to debate you and I have no reason to lie about not having seen anything else, though I'm honestly a bit hurt that you think that, but I guess you've been nothing but attacked so far so perhaps it's understandable.
I don't think my sarcastic responses prove anything. They're just sarcastic responses to some truly exceptional assertions as to the meaning of bullying.
Political parties exist in the free market just like corporations. If they can't earn votes a new party will form. It's happened before and it will happen again. That's why they message with fear. It's effective at turning off any critical thinking.
It's okay, when we're dragged off to the camps for being Democrats, minorities, and 'useless eaters', the tankies will assure us that Biden would have done the same, in 6-10 decades.
Don't worry, online brigading is definitely good praxis though, unlike so-called 'harm reduction' which only extends the period in which minorities can fight for a better future. Don't they know that that's useless, and what they REALLY should be doing is dying to inspire the privileged to finally Rise Up(tm) on their (belated) behalf?
You think leftists online are accelerationists because they criticize democrats, but you don't think democrats are accelerationists for outright funding fascists?! Are you being serious?
Yeah, I was also there in 2016 and I remember people like you claiming that hillary was the best shot we had against trump and that it's smart that hillary's team boosted trump because he'd be so easy to win against. The result of the 2016 election should've shut people like you up forever, but instead you all pretend like you're the smartest people on earth.
You fight harder against leftists than you do against the democratic party that is funding fascists. In fact, you even defend democrats funding fascists.
Funny because I was huge supporter for Bernie and ended up voting for hillary in the general because I had no other choice. I guess 2016 broke your brain and you've adopted the mindset of the democrats you fought against in 2016.
I protest voted because I figured I lived in a safe blue state where it wouldn't matter if one more cripple cast a protest vote. I had resolved not to protest vote if I was in a swing state, but I was still living in Maryland at the time of the General, so I figured it would be no harm.
Mathematically, it didn't matter, but knowing that I was a contributor to the popular legitimization of a Trump victory soured me on protest voting even in safe states.
Oh? Where's the genocide? Point it out. You guys started this talking point a month ago and nobody has given even an attempt at rationalizing this talking point. You just sound like the guy on the street with a cardboard sign ranting at god. And even better there's a real one going on right now that Biden is supporting. This wouldn't be you trying your hand at some Good Old Projection would it?
Thank you for confirming that you don't believe Trump is genocidal. I'll remember this for future reference. It's a very common fascist talking point, that their strongman of choice isn't REALLY genocidal.
The reason why the rachet turns further to the right each election cycle is because non-conservatives in the US have an abysmal voter turnout.
Neoliberalism is the product of leftists deciding not to vote because there's no "good" option, and leftists will perpetuate this cycle by refusing to acknowledge incremental progress as a good thing.
If only there was a way to increase voter turnout, like giving voters what they want... nah, that'd make too much sense. The democrats are too smart to give people what they want.
Or maybe the centrists turn out because they're the ones that democrats appeal to. Obama ran on a progressive campaign and won big in 2008, so it's clear that it works. The problem is that he then immediately turned around and instituted centrist policy as usual.
Which part am I wrong about? Obama ran on affordable healthcare, abortion rights, being anti-bailout for too-big-to-fail entities, and being anti-war. He won a supermajority. Then he scaled back his healthcare plan, said abortion rights "aren't a top priority", continued bush's bailouts and added more, and invaded/bombed more countries during his term.
Obama passed the best affordable healthcare plan he could.
On abortion rights, he was no more left than Hillary. On the bailouts, he was openly in support of the Bush bailout plan even before the election. On war, Obama was openly in favor of the continuation of the war in Afghanistan and harder military policy against several countries, some of which even McCain wasn't onboard on.
But hey, whatever helps fuel your delusional "If only candidates were more left, then they would DEFINITELY win in a landslide!" outlook.
Obama was really good at letting people project what they wanted on to him politically, while still broadly holding to the neoliberal agenda, and lots of people were insanely naïve at the time. I mean, you had people who claimed to actually expect the election of Obama to usher in a post-racial epoch in the USA, as though all the racists were going to say, "Aw, shucks, the black guy won? Well, hang it up boys, we have to face reality and accept we've been wrong all along."
He also benefitted from pretty excellent political cover from criticism, where, like many vocal Biden supporters are doing right now, any criticism of him would be associated with outright support of the vilest opinions espoused by the GOP at the time. If you said "You know, this Obama guy isn't as great as he's being made out to be," you'd have people assuming you were some nutjob that thought he was secretly Kenyan, or whatever other crazy conspiracies the Tea Party folks trotted out. I don't think it was purely malicious or cynical attempts to discredit people all the time, but there was a big chunk of people who wanted to believe in their conception of Obama, which couldn't admit that he wasn't the savior sent from on high to resolve all the country's problems in exactly the manner they had hoped he would.
The democrats are all moderate republicans, which in itself is an oxymoron. Don't believe me, here is Obama saying just that (about himself); https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJIlZxHfclc Now imagine you somehow get total control of all braches, and to top it off 3 weeks filibuster proof. You can do anything, but you don't really want change. What do you do? Well implement RomneyCare, call it ObamaCare and leave out the public option, which will ensure it be a giveaway to big pharma. Seems good at first glance, but leaving out the public option really killed it, as they intended.
Three months of Obama's negotiations with a Senate whose supermajority was built on Blue-Dog Democrats from highly conservative areas, and of whom every single one was necessary.
What, do you think Obama comes in like a Roman Emperor, proposes legislation to the Senate, and then has a vote that same day? Do you not know anything about the functioning of the modern US Congress? Jesus Christ.
The Senate wasn't hand-picked by Obama. Fuck, many of them had been in the Senate longer than Obama had been in politics, repeatedly re-elected by their constituents to represent interests which were not necessarily in-line with Obama's plans. "He should have just done it better!" is a ridiculous position.
His team is the Democratic Party because there are two major parties in this country. And one of them spent years calling him racial slurs, so their support was doubtful.
What were Obama's other choices, in this scenario?
We fight according to the situation as it is, not the situation as we want it to be.
An incredibly popular president returning after having already been elected once split off during a contested convention at the Republican Party, which was initially the venue through which their candidate was going to run and managed to lose the ensuing election, accomplishing nothing except the election of a rival.
And that was the best third-party showing in US presidential history.
Same thing with Biden. Ran on $10,000 of student debt relief for everyone, improving the climate, and not being Trump. People figured they could push him left, that was the argument. Now he's been a lot better than I thought he would be admittedly. But still, the student debt relief has been extremely targeted, he made foreign electric cars more expensive, and he's materially supporting a genocide while yelling at the protests against it. If they can't push him left in 4 years, then the theory was proven wrong, candidates can't be pushed left, and it's right for leftists not to vote for them. Democrats don't feel they have to move left because leftists have no other choice about who to vote for, so I get the calculus on their parts, but it's becoming dangerous.
It also depends on how much supporting a current genocide is a red line for someone. That seems to be the biggest difference I see in these posts. Some people can't bring themselves to vote for someone who does that no matter what. Others seem to be more malleable and forgiving about it. I know which one I am, but honestly, no judgment on either. I waffle between them myself. I don't feel nearly as much pressure as others,though, because I don't live in a swing state, so my vote doesn't matter.
Good god. You win elections from the center. A center vote that switches from R to D is worth double because the R loses one vote and D gains one. You literally win from the center.
If you want the center to move, then make the Dems win overwhelmingly and consistently in President, house of reps, and senators.
So do you think republicans are catering to centrists with their full dive into fascism or do you think only democrats need to appeal to "centrists" for some reason?
Trump won by appealing to the manufacturing jobs sector, and because of the protest Hillary vote. As much as I want to believe people were/are informed about his fascism, they really aren't.
And now, because Trump won one election, the whole Overton window moved right. You know, because he won an election. You want to move the Overton window? Vote.
Biden won an election more recently than him. Weird how the Overton window moves when Republicans win an election but not when Democrats do. Wonder if there's a reason for that.
Hell, Bernie (and Warren) moved the widow more by running in a primary than they did by winning.
The reason is because Dems have to actually do things like pass legislation. Which more often than not requires all 3 of house, senate, and president. All the GOP has to do is block things and yell immigrants. Progress takes, you know, actual work. Stagnation or regression takes next to nothing.
Neoliberalism exists for many reasons. But blaming leftists is strange. We would be a lot better off if voting was not so hard for black and brown people, for instance. We can at least agree on that.
Yeah, I'm on board with making voting easier for everyone. Voter turnout is ultimately the only way short of violent revolution to fix shit in this country.
Voting is difficult enough for people who don't vote conservative, which is why when leftists refuse to vote out of principle because their perfect candidates aren't a choice, they're figuratively stepping on the rake.
Totally agree about voting and its need for ease. But I can tell you more leftists vote than don't, I can promise you that. Systemically that's not the biggest problem. And I certainly plan to vote and I won't be helping Trump with it.
I hope you're right, but I'll say that I've definitely seen more people in this election cycle say there's no point in picking between two fascists than any other cycle I've been a part of.
Use normal words. You are trying intimidate people with confidence and you just end up not making any sort of point. If we vote the right people in and the right people do their job it isn't fascist. We aren't in a fascist regime. You are the only one being "reductive".
Those are normal words, I apologize for not being the right kind of articulate for you. we have been moving right for 40 plus years. Both parties have been complicit. We fight endless wars under both parties. We have lost access to inexpensive higher education under both parties. We have lost the battle to the healthcare industry under both parties. We have seen the rise of the military police state under both parties. We have become spied on in every facet of life under both parties. Our public infrastructure is falling apart and being deregulated under both parties. We have seen the militarization of our borders under both parties.
These are real material problems that we continue to ignore with the focus on these two parties. We've seen a modicum of progress in certain areas, but there has been a lot of loss of freedom and liberty.
I disagree. Neoliberalism and foments are not common at all. You can even look it up statistically if you would like. We are not a fascist regime just because you don't like every decision. That isn't how fascism works. You still have many freedoms others do not. Is it expensive? Absolutely. Is it fair? No. But there are plenty of Democrats fighting the dumbasses for those rights to become easier. So chill on your "we are in a fascist regime" jargon just because you can't get every single little thing you want.
I don't know if we can discuss how using more words attuned with the audience would help? I think I already said that and you didn't take kindly to it.
Foment as much as it could be a synonym for instigate or moving towards as you put it, could also be taken as inspires or motivates an already mobilized force. Maybe it was a poor choice for what you were trying to convey.
The meme oversimplifies what is happening. Our politics has been drifting further to the right with each election and the people in power are fine with that, regardless of whatever party they're a part of.
