apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Reductive. Neoliberalism protects and foments fascism as we ratchet a little further to the right each election cycle.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Even if we assume for the sake of the argument that your ridiculous assertion is true, "Let's do fascism faster" is exactly the kind of bootlicking take I would expect from a tankie.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Never said I was a tankie bruh. A party that bases itself on a slightly more gentle fascism isn't the cart we should be attaching ourselves to.

It will never ever be the right election for y'all liberal centrists who shit post on left folks. It is always the next one. Point is, if we want to be rid of this fucking fascist shit, we have to build solidarity with the left.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Never said I was a tankie bruh.

Didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to point out tankie behavior like "Faster fascism Good, Actually" unless the poster self-identified, thank you for the information.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you for your inability to listen to reason.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

"Reason" here being "Make fascism happen faster"

Forgive me for not finding that a terribly compelling argument.

BossDj ,

Idealism is fun, but it's so very extremely privileged.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Idealism is great when you use it to fight for a better world.

Idealism is privileged when you use it to deny any reduction in harm as not being 'good enough' to permit.

apfelwoiSchoppen , (edited )
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

What is ideal about 40 years of two-party neoliberal movement to the right bringing us to the brink of fascism?

What is privileged about not having healthcare security, job security, in endless war, the environment going to pot, rent exploding, deregulation, ballooning prison numbers, speculative housing markets? Honestly it feels like the privileged who cannot imagine anything different than the bipartisan system that pits us (those on the left and liberals) against each other.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Idealism is fun, but it’s so very extremely privileged.

What is ideal about 40 years of two party neoliberal movement to the right bringing us to the brink of fascism?

Jesus. At least work on your reading comprehension before responding.

Sasha , (edited )

Not interested in the whole yelling at each other thing, so genuinely asking here. What exactly does not voting democrat get the left in the US? Is the OP's assumption that you want to accelerate fascism actually correct?

So far I haven't seen any reason other than either accelerationism or "because it makes me feel bad" and I refuse to believe that's all that's behind it.

I'm really having a hard time, and I genuinely think it's important to try to understand the points of view and beliefs of those we disagree with, rather than immediately turning to infighting.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

I wholeheartedly agree.

Sasha ,

I can't tell if you're mocking me, I don't know how much clearer I can be that I just want to know why, if I can't understand why people think it's a good idea then I can't be sure that my views/opinions are actually worth anything.

If you just don't want to talk to me then, that's okay too.

PerogiBoi ,
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

People like this exist to argue. They have no ideology and no beliefs.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

I was not mocking you.

null ,
@null@slrpnk.net avatar

Then answer the questions...

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Read the other posts in the thread, then. The answers are already there.

null ,
@null@slrpnk.net avatar

Obtuse.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Riveting point.

null ,
@null@slrpnk.net avatar

I wholeheartedly agree.

whoreticulture ,

I think they were saying they agree with the idea that people should understand the political beliefs of those they disagree with.

TachyonTele , (edited )

Is this a bot? This reply doesn't make any sense.

What are you agreeing with? They asked you for more information.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

I was agreeing with not shitting on the left and the need for an attempt to understand them. Not a lot of good faith attempts at understanding happening here, just a lot of bullying.

whoreticulture ,

Shifts the policies of the Democratic party so that they appeal to leftists. Not going to get into an ongoing debate, but just so you can't say you haven't seen any other reasons (which sounds fake to me but okay).

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

Could you give exactly one example of that ever happening?

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Hey, remember when we all protest voted in 2016 and drove the Dem party SO far left?

shikitohno ,

Hey, remember when the Dems ran an unlikable centrist candidate as the lesser of two evils because anyone else wasn't "electable" enough in the DNC's view of centrist voters, and that translated into an electoral win via pinched noses in 2016? I'm really glad we got a dynastic compromise candidate that saved Democracy. That strategy worked out so well for Hillary, I can see why they'd go for it again.

Shyfer ,

Barely anyone protest voted lol. She got more votes from Bernie voters than Trump got from Gary Johnson voters. She lost because she didn't appeal to specific voters in specific states, and the US has a shit democracy that she didn't correctly strategize for.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Barely anyone protest voted lol.

It was the highest 3rd party vote in, what, 20 years?

She got more votes from Bernie voters than Trump got from Gary Johnson voters. She lost because she didn’t appeal to specific voters in specific states, and the US has a shit democracy that she didn’t correctly strategize for.

Those things are also correct.

My point is not "HILLARY COULD HAVE WON" it was "Pretty clearly, despite widespread discontent on the left and the resulting action of witholding votes to either not vote, write-in, or give to the Green/Libertarian Parties, the DNC did not take losing to a right-wing candidate as proof that they needed to move left in any appreciable way".

Sasha ,

I appreciate it. I'm not here to debate you and I have no reason to lie about not having seen anything else, though I'm honestly a bit hurt that you think that, but I guess you've been nothing but attacked so far so perhaps it's understandable.

whoreticulture ,

Thanks for understanding. 🏳️‍⚧️💖

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, it is dogpiling and bullying in here. The reasons are here in the comments and elsewhere.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Bullying is when people say something I don't like, and the more I don't like it, the more bullying it is.

whoreticulture ,

This is bullying lol, very disingenuous to the actual situation. Come on.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Oh good, you've asserted that saying something you don't like is bullying. That truly confirms it, then.

whoreticulture ,

Do you think that sarcastic responses are proving your assertion that there isn't any bullying going on?

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I don't think my sarcastic responses prove anything. They're just sarcastic responses to some truly exceptional assertions as to the meaning of bullying.

whoreticulture ,

I guess what I really meant to say is, your sarcastic responses is part of it lmao

Maggoty ,

Political parties exist in the free market just like corporations. If they can't earn votes a new party will form. It's happened before and it will happen again. That's why they message with fear. It's effective at turning off any critical thinking.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Political parties exist in the free market just like corporations.

Tell me more about the political free market under Project 2025.

In fact, tell me more about how quickly firms rise and fall in the free market. It's instantaneous, right?

Maggoty ,

Sometimes it is. Sometimes you have to push it off the cliff.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Sometimes it is.

lmao

Theprogressivist ,
@Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

Wow, so enlightened.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It's okay, when we're dragged off to the camps for being Democrats, minorities, and 'useless eaters', the tankies will assure us that Biden would have done the same, in 6-10 decades.

Theprogressivist ,
@Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, of course. Remember, it's evil to vote for democrats so the best thing to do is not vote at all! /s. Tankie logic.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Don't worry, online brigading is definitely good praxis though, unlike so-called 'harm reduction' which only extends the period in which minorities can fight for a better future. Don't they know that that's useless, and what they REALLY should be doing is dying to inspire the privileged to finally Rise Up(tm) on their (belated) behalf?

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Conflating anyone on the left with being tankies is exactly the problem.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, okay, so accelerationism and anti-democratic sentiment is just normal leftism nowadays? We're all MLs and MLMs? Cool cool cool.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar
PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

So is this accelerationism or does it not count when democrats do it?:

Is that what you think accelerationism is? A party trying to run against the enemy it thinks is electorally weakest?

Fucking lmao.

How about their rigged primaries keeping progressives out? Is that pro-democratic?:

Hilarious. Come back when you actually know anything about how 2016 went down. Some of us were fucking there.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

You think leftists online are accelerationists because they criticize democrats, but you don't think democrats are accelerationists for outright funding fascists?! Are you being serious?

Yeah, I was also there in 2016 and I remember people like you claiming that hillary was the best shot we had against trump and that it's smart that hillary's team boosted trump because he'd be so easy to win against. The result of the 2016 election should've shut people like you up forever, but instead you all pretend like you're the smartest people on earth.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

You think leftists online are accelerationists because they criticize democrats

lmao. Whatever strawman helps you get your dander up, buddy.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

You fight harder against leftists than you do against the democratic party that is funding fascists. In fact, you even defend democrats funding fascists.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, I was also there in 2016 and I remember people like you claiming that hillary was the best shot we had against trump and

That's funny, considering I was an ardent Bernie voter who ended up protest voting in the General.

The result of the 2016 election should’ve shut people like you up forever, but instead you all pretend like you’re the smartest people on earth.

Swing and a miss. It's almost impressive that you're wrong so consistently.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Funny because I was huge supporter for Bernie and ended up voting for hillary in the general because I had no other choice. I guess 2016 broke your brain and you've adopted the mindset of the democrats you fought against in 2016.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I protest voted because I figured I lived in a safe blue state where it wouldn't matter if one more cripple cast a protest vote. I had resolved not to protest vote if I was in a swing state, but I was still living in Maryland at the time of the General, so I figured it would be no harm.

Mathematically, it didn't matter, but knowing that I was a contributor to the popular legitimization of a Trump victory soured me on protest voting even in safe states.

NoIWontPickAName ,

You mean the one did their level best to make sure Clinton won? The one where they gave her all the info ahead of time?

Theprogressivist ,
@Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

If you don't like being called a tankie, then don't push tankie talking points, champ.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Go and read some, the left is a spectrum. Fuck tankies.

Maggoty ,

He just calls anyone to the left of him a tankie. He has no clue what it actually means.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry that I think fascists painted red calling for genocide in America are bad.

Maggoty ,

Oh? Where's the genocide? Point it out. You guys started this talking point a month ago and nobody has given even an attempt at rationalizing this talking point. You just sound like the guy on the street with a cardboard sign ranting at god. And even better there's a real one going on right now that Biden is supporting. This wouldn't be you trying your hand at some Good Old Projection would it?

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Oh? Where’s the genocide? Point it out.

Oh, let me get this straight, you're denying that Trump is genocidal now?

Please, I want this on record.

Maggoty ,

Show me then. I'm not going to make spurious accusations.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Show me then.

Thank you for confirming that you don't believe Trump is genocidal. I'll remember this for future reference. It's a very common fascist talking point, that their strongman of choice isn't REALLY genocidal.

Maggoty ,

Go ahead. Don't be surprised if someone shows me actual evidence and I change my position. It's how rational people operate.

Seasoned_Greetings ,

The reason why the rachet turns further to the right each election cycle is because non-conservatives in the US have an abysmal voter turnout.

Neoliberalism is the product of leftists deciding not to vote because there's no "good" option, and leftists will perpetuate this cycle by refusing to acknowledge incremental progress as a good thing.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

If only there was a way to increase voter turnout, like giving voters what they want... nah, that'd make too much sense. The democrats are too smart to give people what they want.

Seasoned_Greetings ,

Democrats do that. They appeal to centrists because those are the people who turn out to vote.

Leftists don't get representation, the ratchet turns right. Funny how that works

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Or maybe the centrists turn out because they're the ones that democrats appeal to. Obama ran on a progressive campaign and won big in 2008, so it's clear that it works. The problem is that he then immediately turned around and instituted centrist policy as usual.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Obama ran on a progressive campaign and won big in 2008, so it’s clear that it works

God. It's fascinating how little self-proclaimed leftists remember 2008.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Which part am I wrong about? Obama ran on affordable healthcare, abortion rights, being anti-bailout for too-big-to-fail entities, and being anti-war. He won a supermajority. Then he scaled back his healthcare plan, said abortion rights "aren't a top priority", continued bush's bailouts and added more, and invaded/bombed more countries during his term.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Obama passed the best affordable healthcare plan he could.

On abortion rights, he was no more left than Hillary. On the bailouts, he was openly in support of the Bush bailout plan even before the election. On war, Obama was openly in favor of the continuation of the war in Afghanistan and harder military policy against several countries, some of which even McCain wasn't onboard on.

But hey, whatever helps fuel your delusional "If only candidates were more left, then they would DEFINITELY win in a landslide!" outlook.

shikitohno ,

Obama was really good at letting people project what they wanted on to him politically, while still broadly holding to the neoliberal agenda, and lots of people were insanely naïve at the time. I mean, you had people who claimed to actually expect the election of Obama to usher in a post-racial epoch in the USA, as though all the racists were going to say, "Aw, shucks, the black guy won? Well, hang it up boys, we have to face reality and accept we've been wrong all along."

He also benefitted from pretty excellent political cover from criticism, where, like many vocal Biden supporters are doing right now, any criticism of him would be associated with outright support of the vilest opinions espoused by the GOP at the time. If you said "You know, this Obama guy isn't as great as he's being made out to be," you'd have people assuming you were some nutjob that thought he was secretly Kenyan, or whatever other crazy conspiracies the Tea Party folks trotted out. I don't think it was purely malicious or cynical attempts to discredit people all the time, but there was a big chunk of people who wanted to believe in their conception of Obama, which couldn't admit that he wasn't the savior sent from on high to resolve all the country's problems in exactly the manner they had hoped he would.

mydude ,

The democrats are all moderate republicans, which in itself is an oxymoron. Don't believe me, here is Obama saying just that (about himself); https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJIlZxHfclc Now imagine you somehow get total control of all braches, and to top it off 3 weeks filibuster proof. You can do anything, but you don't really want change. What do you do? Well implement RomneyCare, call it ObamaCare and leave out the public option, which will ensure it be a giveaway to big pharma. Seems good at first glance, but leaving out the public option really killed it, as they intended.

Regarding roe...

The first thing I'll do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BdrOrwmk78Y

Im pro choice
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzdkAbu8dY

Not my highest priority
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RxiDZejZFjg

parody... No
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1z4uhxpOnN0

NoIWontPickAName ,

Obama had full control of both houses and the White House, they could have passed whatever they wanted.

Instead we still didn’t get single payer healthcare.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Obama had full control of both houses and the White House, they could have passed whatever they wanted.

Fucking lmao.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Oh I’m sorry, where did the ACA come from?

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Three months of Obama's negotiations with a Senate whose supermajority was built on Blue-Dog Democrats from highly conservative areas, and of whom every single one was necessary.

What, do you think Obama comes in like a Roman Emperor, proposes legislation to the Senate, and then has a vote that same day? Do you not know anything about the functioning of the modern US Congress? Jesus Christ.

NoIWontPickAName ,

If Obama couldn’t get his team to fall in line when they had everything going for them, then he did not do his job well enough.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

"His team"

The Senate wasn't hand-picked by Obama. Fuck, many of them had been in the Senate longer than Obama had been in politics, repeatedly re-elected by their constituents to represent interests which were not necessarily in-line with Obama's plans. "He should have just done it better!" is a ridiculous position.

NoIWontPickAName ,

His team is the Democratic Party, by his own choice

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

His team is the Democratic Party because there are two major parties in this country. And one of them spent years calling him racial slurs, so their support was doubtful.

What were Obama's other choices, in this scenario?

We fight according to the situation as it is, not the situation as we want it to be.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Bull moose party managed it

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

An incredibly popular president returning after having already been elected once split off during a contested convention at the Republican Party, which was initially the venue through which their candidate was going to run and managed to lose the ensuing election, accomplishing nothing except the election of a rival.

And that was the best third-party showing in US presidential history.

Shyfer ,

Same thing with Biden. Ran on $10,000 of student debt relief for everyone, improving the climate, and not being Trump. People figured they could push him left, that was the argument. Now he's been a lot better than I thought he would be admittedly. But still, the student debt relief has been extremely targeted, he made foreign electric cars more expensive, and he's materially supporting a genocide while yelling at the protests against it. If they can't push him left in 4 years, then the theory was proven wrong, candidates can't be pushed left, and it's right for leftists not to vote for them. Democrats don't feel they have to move left because leftists have no other choice about who to vote for, so I get the calculus on their parts, but it's becoming dangerous.

It also depends on how much supporting a current genocide is a red line for someone. That seems to be the biggest difference I see in these posts. Some people can't bring themselves to vote for someone who does that no matter what. Others seem to be more malleable and forgiving about it. I know which one I am, but honestly, no judgment on either. I waffle between them myself. I don't feel nearly as much pressure as others,though, because I don't live in a swing state, so my vote doesn't matter.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

like giving voters what they want

Funny enough, giving voters what they want is inevitably decried by Very Serious Online Leftists

someguy3 ,

Good god. You win elections from the center. A center vote that switches from R to D is worth double because the R loses one vote and D gains one. You literally win from the center.

If you want the center to move, then make the Dems win overwhelmingly and consistently in President, house of reps, and senators.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

So do you think republicans are catering to centrists with their full dive into fascism or do you think only democrats need to appeal to "centrists" for some reason?

someguy3 ,

Trump won by appealing to the manufacturing jobs sector, and because of the protest Hillary vote. As much as I want to believe people were/are informed about his fascism, they really aren't.

And now, because Trump won one election, the whole Overton window moved right. You know, because he won an election. You want to move the Overton window? Vote.

Shyfer ,

Biden won an election more recently than him. Weird how the Overton window moves when Republicans win an election but not when Democrats do. Wonder if there's a reason for that.

Hell, Bernie (and Warren) moved the widow more by running in a primary than they did by winning.

someguy3 ,

The reason is because Dems have to actually do things like pass legislation. Which more often than not requires all 3 of house, senate, and president. All the GOP has to do is block things and yell immigrants. Progress takes, you know, actual work. Stagnation or regression takes next to nothing.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Neoliberalism exists for many reasons. But blaming leftists is strange. We would be a lot better off if voting was not so hard for black and brown people, for instance. We can at least agree on that.

Seasoned_Greetings ,

Yeah, I'm on board with making voting easier for everyone. Voter turnout is ultimately the only way short of violent revolution to fix shit in this country.

Voting is difficult enough for people who don't vote conservative, which is why when leftists refuse to vote out of principle because their perfect candidates aren't a choice, they're figuratively stepping on the rake.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Totally agree about voting and its need for ease. But I can tell you more leftists vote than don't, I can promise you that. Systemically that's not the biggest problem. And I certainly plan to vote and I won't be helping Trump with it.

Seasoned_Greetings ,

I hope you're right, but I'll say that I've definitely seen more people in this election cycle say there's no point in picking between two fascists than any other cycle I've been a part of.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah totally. Social media is bashing and circlejerking, even in the open source spaces. Not the best lens into reality.

NoIWontPickAName ,

No one will vote for our shitty candidates.

Should we run better ones?

No blame the people for us not having a good candidate

Seasoned_Greetings ,

Great, so you're going to overhaul the system and get us better candidates?

No?

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

Use normal words. You are trying intimidate people with confidence and you just end up not making any sort of point. If we vote the right people in and the right people do their job it isn't fascist. We aren't in a fascist regime. You are the only one being "reductive".

apfelwoiSchoppen , (edited )
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Those are normal words, I apologize for not being the right kind of articulate for you. we have been moving right for 40 plus years. Both parties have been complicit. We fight endless wars under both parties. We have lost access to inexpensive higher education under both parties. We have lost the battle to the healthcare industry under both parties. We have seen the rise of the military police state under both parties. We have become spied on in every facet of life under both parties. Our public infrastructure is falling apart and being deregulated under both parties. We have seen the militarization of our borders under both parties.

These are real material problems that we continue to ignore with the focus on these two parties. We've seen a modicum of progress in certain areas, but there has been a lot of loss of freedom and liberty.

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

I disagree. Neoliberalism and foments are not common at all. You can even look it up statistically if you would like. We are not a fascist regime just because you don't like every decision. That isn't how fascism works. You still have many freedoms others do not. Is it expensive? Absolutely. Is it fair? No. But there are plenty of Democrats fighting the dumbasses for those rights to become easier. So chill on your "we are in a fascist regime" jargon just because you can't get every single little thing you want.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

I said we are moving towards fascism. I never said "we are in a fascist regime".

GladiusB , (edited )
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

I don't know if we can discuss how using more words attuned with the audience would help? I think I already said that and you didn't take kindly to it.

Foment as much as it could be a synonym for instigate or moving towards as you put it, could also be taken as inspires or motivates an already mobilized force. Maybe it was a poor choice for what you were trying to convey.

AppleTea ,

The meme oversimplifies what is happening. Our politics has been drifting further to the right with each election and the people in power are fine with that, regardless of whatever party they're a part of.

there you go

Windex007 ,

A meme? REDUCTIVE?

Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

Mangoholic ,

This meme is the classic them vs us, which by itself is how facism starts.
The world is not so black and white. If I was American and could vote, then I would vote some third party that actually represents my views, since that is the only choice that would make sense. Also tankies criticised both trump and biden as we'll, it's not bad to be against the mainstream, if both options are shit.
If everyone would think more critical this situation would not exist.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Nobody wants it to be us vs. them but as you say fascist movements are us vs. them. When there are fascist movements in existence it is us vs. them whether you want it to be or not because they make it them vs. us. It doesn't matter how hard you hold your eyes shut and cover your ears, the fascists are there and if you're not in their movement they are against you.

It's not all doom and gloom yet. Most fascist movements fade away and die out. But it behooves the non-fascists to help that outcome occur. Pretending fascists don't exist doesn't help achieve that outcome and risks there being a very doom and gloom outcome.

gardylou ,
@gardylou@lemmy.world avatar

Just like when they taught Hillary Clinton a lesson. That worked or well for everyone, right?

explodicle ,

To be fair, Joe Biden is better than Hillary Clinton.

Shyfer ,

She won the popular vote... The US just has a shit democracy.

ZombiFrancis ,

This message condones 80,000 votes for explicit fascism before accepting a single communist abstention.

Wtf is this messaging.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Meme illiteracy is a terrible plague

ZombiFrancis ,

If you're out here everyday arguing Tankies are Fascists, then it is a bit curious you'd make something where 80,001 fascists are protrayed and the one fascist that actively doesn't vote for fascism, the tankie, is considered the problem.

Out of all the 80,001 fascists: this one chose to abstain from voting for fascism. That one deserves the scrutiny, the criticism, the exorication, because...

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Because tankies pretend, and try to convince others, that they aren't fascists, and that helping fascism along is actually fighting fascism.

Conservatives rarely tell you that they AREN'T trying to get Donald Trump in the White House so he can Make America Great Again. Tankies often claim that, despite working towards that goal.

I don't give a fuck about what fascist tankies themselves do, they're a lost cause, busy sucking off dictators because "Murder of Muslims and LGBT folk is BASED when you do it under a red flag!" I do give a fuck about their messaging being loudly and repeatedly parroted like Republicans in 2004 crying "RAISE THE TERROR ALERT" like it fucking meant something.

ZombiFrancis ,

Expressly not caring what fascists actually do so long as their messaging is quiet is... definitely a tied and true strategy.

PugJesus OP ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

That's unsurprising, considering you take every opportunity you can to amplify fascist propaganda.

ZombiFrancis ,

I mean, yeah engagement on these topics only adds to the kafkaesque noise trying to be stirred up. The counterproductivity is too real.

humbletightband ,

fighting fascism

Seeing how the us turns into France

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

Well, I doubt even now citizens of any former Soviet Republic can vote for Biden.

33550336 ,
@33550336@lemmy.world avatar

But this is the whole point of the red fascists tankies

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Indeed vote for the blue fascists tankies

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

I can't believe France wom that election

Shapillon ,

The French flag is blue/white/red, it could be the Dutch or Paraguayan flags flippes on their sides for example.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Ir it could be the hcnerF

electric_nan ,

🥱

mightyfoolish ,

At this point you guys should just take all the time it takes to argue "tankies" for HOURS at end and make these low tier memes and just form your own political party.

ZombiFrancis ,

Two minutes is probably all that's necessary.

Maybe a week long festival in the late summer.

Spiralvortexisalie ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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  • Theprogressivist ,
    @Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

    Turns out your experiences don't equate to everyone else's, champ.

    And you claim not to be a trump supporter, but towards the end, you deep throated the shit of him. So nice way of exposing yourself there.

    Maggoty ,

    If that's deep throating a candidate then what's someone who actually likes Trump?

    Maybe if you guys stopped pushing away anyone who doesn't "deep throat" Biden you'd have more support?

    Theprogressivist ,
    @Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

    No one is even saying that. Criticism is valid when they're valid points. You motherfuckers pounce at every chance you get to shit on him even when he does something good. But keep equating him to the guy who tried to overthrow the government and is actively trying to do so again. They even have their agenda right in the open so you can read up on it, champ. Project 2025.

    Edit: And to answer your question if anyone supports trump they're a fucking idiot.

    Maggoty ,

    Oh shit. Looks like you're saying it right now. I've never equated the two. And yet here you are swearing at me. Now I don't scare easily and I don't let people on the internet tell me how to vote. But this ain't how you get more votes. Fear mongering and threats have never worked for the democrats. So the only "fucking idiots" I see here are you guys, pushing voters away.

    Theprogressivist ,
    @Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

    Trump supporters ARE idiots. They are not allies, nor do I give a shit about you holding your vote over me. Vote for who you want, but don't cry with what you end up getting.

    Maggoty ,

    You're still not getting it. I don't care about you. I'm not going to vote either way because of you. But being an ass doesn't attract voters. That's all I'm trying to tell you.

    Theprogressivist ,
    @Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

    You didn't have to tell me because I didn't give a fuck to begin with. I never asked for your opinion.

    Maggoty ,

    You don't care so much you responded to someone telling us their experiences with vitriol.

    Theprogressivist ,
    @Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

    Have fun arguing with yourself.

    Franconian_Nomad ,

    [x] Doubt

    frickineh ,

    Oh well if Cardi B said she won't vote for Biden, I guess that's that. If the average person thinks Biden is worse than Trump, then they're either willfully ignorant or just straight up dumb. The milk isn't gonna get any cheaper if Trump wins, bud.

    Aphelion ,

    If you think Trump will make your milk cheaper, you're supremely delusional. He's gonna give his corporate buddies massive tax breaks and crank up taxes on everyone else, which includes you if you're not a billionaire.

    Maggoty ,

    That's true but his messaging is heads and shoulders better. The longer Biden insists that the people are wrong and the economy is actually doing great, the worse it will get. People aren't dumb, but they aren't geniuses either. They can see their purchasing power is severely restricted from pre-covid times. Without training in economics, politics, and policy; they just aren't going to be able to realize that it was a coincidence more than anything Trump did for them.

    baggachipz ,

    see more Trump flags everyday(and literally not a Biden Flag anywhere

    Maybe because Biden voters aren’t in a FUCKING CULT?

    Maggoty ,

    Did you see the meme at the top? I'm not so sure that's true anymore.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    "Did you see the meme pointing out what happens when there are two leading candidates??? How cultlike!"

    Reality is so scawwy.

    Maggoty ,

    And responding to every comment with ad hominems is the mark of a rational organization known for critical thinking.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    I didn't realize accusations of being a cult WEREN'T ad hominems. Good to see there are rules for me, but none for thee. Very typical of fascist rhetoric. :)

    Maggoty ,

    Oh no, I mean that in a very real way. There's people available to help you if you want. This level of aggressiveness over someone else not supporting your group is not healthy.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    This level of aggressiveness over someone else not supporting your group is not healthy.

    I'm so sorry that I don't want to live under a fascist regime that will kill me. I understand that fascists like you think this desire isn't healthy, but I assure you, wanting to live is entirely normal, even for us filthy minorities.

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    Disagree

    YeetPics ,

    You big wrong.

    whoreticulture ,

    Everyone is mad but you're mostly just sharing your experiences. This is why liberals suck, they never listen and assume they know best. Cardi B is honestly quite politically knowledgeable and articulate from what I have heard from her, but people are hating because she doesn't speak in an upper class educated way.

    whoreticulture ,
    Spiralvortexisalie ,

    Bro its Lemmy, I didn’t Stan for Biden and got removed. These are the same tone deaf people who are gonna be surprised by a Biden loss.

    whoreticulture ,

    Yeah, I know that's the real reason but I wonder if they can possibly provide any justification.

    niktemadur , (edited )

    "I have been heard loud and clear. Now I sit and lay back like I always do anyway, and wait while fondling my purity then absent-mindedly yet lovingly sniffing my fingers, any moment now they will cater to me."

    DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

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  • someguy3 ,

    I agree. I get serious "I'm 14, don't understand, but still very edgy" vibes.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    Please avoid the r-term, I understand as someone who grew up online in the 2000s that it's a habit that takes time to break, but not using it provides relief to many who are sensitive to its use due to its derogatory history.

    Eldritch ,
    @Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

    They haven't been duped. At least not in the same way. Russia has no real influence over them. It's an enemy of my enemy thing. The United States has been trending heavily undemocratic for the last 50+ years minimum. And they don't want that to change. Their complaint is that they aren't the ones in charge. They DON'T want to make things better. They just want to be the ones hurting those that disagree. And the only way they can do that is to make things worse. To the point of collapse.

    It's just goals aligning. Not some big conspiracy. Or brainwashing. Republicans, Russians, Chinese, and ML all see themselves benefiting from collapse.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    The United States has been trending heavily undemocratic for the last 50+ years minimum.

    See, I can't agree with this. Fifty years ago, our democracy was still in a MUCH worse position than today.

    Our current democratic decline dates to the Citizens United decision. Not that we were perfect before that, or even necessarily 'good', but in general, the US has gotten more democratic since 1974, not less. Even despite Reagan.

    Eldritch ,
    @Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

    See, I can't agree with this. Fifty years ago, our democracy was still in a MUCH worse position than today.

    How so? Union membership was at all time highs, we'd just had FDR's new deal. Labor and non ownership classes have never benefited from government in a similar fashion since that time.

    That isn't to discount the civil rights act etc. More people being represented is good. The problem being, that while more people were "technically" represented. Everyone collectively has less to show for it. With inequality approaching or exceeding even the guilded age. Because the government increasingly represents only a single class of person.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    How so? Union membership was at all time highs, we’d just had FDR’s new deal. Labor and non ownership classes have never benefited from government in a similar fashion since that time.

    In the 1970s?

    That isn’t to discount the civil rights act etc. More people being represented is good. The problem being, that while more people were “technically” represented. Everyone collectively has less to show for it. With inequality approaching or exceeding even the guilded age. Because the government increasingly represents only a single class of person.

    I feel like 'technically' is doing a lot of fucking lifting here.

    Eldritch ,
    @Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

    What about the '70s? The 70s itself isn't very descriptive. On the whole being inexorably tied to Nixon really pushes home the point that things were becoming less democratic then. It's also the time period in which the modern techniques of gerrymandering were being developed and explored. As a direct response to civil rights. Again less democratic.

    And technically is an accurate term. What is democracy? Is democracy just being able to cast a ballot, that then gets creatively discarded. Or is something beyond casting a ballot required. Remember, Russia is technically a democracy too. As was the Soviet Union. I would argue that the US has had a better record on that front domestically. But it's a low bar. Not necessarily something we should be bragging about. Are we really a democracy? We should be. But are we actually.

    madcaesar ,

    Yup, we're just as susceptible to propaganda. Propaganda is a hell of a drug.

    That said, I do feel there are more diverse voices on the left that call out the bullshit.

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah. All the fighting I do with tankies and their useful idiots doesn't compare to the nightmare that would be wading into a right-dominated community. In left-communities that aren't run by ban-happy tankies, propaganda has a harder time taking hold, because there's nothing leftists love more than fighting other leftists; and in a fight, all other things being equal, reality advantages the side championing it.

    DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

    Totally agree. We're way better at criticizing our chosen leaders.

    YeetPics ,

    I don't think you understand, having a fascist shithead in charge of the US is precisely the goal of these fine folks on .ml and .hexbear.

    They want the us to be as equally fucked and censured as china. It's their only hope for not being the internet's laughingstock for another couple decades.

    player2 ,

    At the risk of getting downvoted into oblivion, this is not a fair representation of their complaints or desires. Maybe a minority of them want what you described.

    It's actually possible for our government to be more democratic if we could remove capitalist interference from our government structure.

    Your democracy is a sham and here's why.

    Maggoty ,

    It's not a good faith argument. They don't want to question their support for Biden. So instead of actually thinking critically they make shit up so they can dismiss any criticism that would force them to actually think.

    Eldritch ,
    @Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

    The problem is, yes government could and I would argue should be more democratic. But that isn't how Leninism/stalinism/Maoism works. We have problems with adequate representation with two parties. Those groups want only one. And traditionally that party doesn't take kindly to dissent. Rather than listening and adjusting policy to better address people. They simply exclude you from society if you're lucky. Lock you up, brutalize you. And if they don't think they've adequately broken you, kill you.

    We need to remove authoritarian and private control of government. Capitalism would follow eventually. The problem is. That's impossible with capitalists and ML alike.

    player2 ,

    I'd be happy with a social democracy that emphasizes a mixed economy with strong social welfare programs funded by progressive taxation. Examples include the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden).

    I don't know how to accomplish that though because the farther we slip into a class dictatorship, the harder it will be to enact progressive taxation. We'd all vote yes to tax the 1% richest more, but that will never be on any ballot for us to choose.

    Eldritch ,
    @Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

    That would absolutely be a great start. But only that. A starting point.

    Taxing the rich can be on the ballot. The problem is we often spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves letting the ownership class walk away with everything while we tussle over scraps. They've succeeded in putting a large portion of the population into a nihilistic Fugue state. Only trying to destroy things and hurt the group they've been told is the Boogeyman. Not improving things for themselves or others. As easy and as fun as it can be to ridicule conservatives importantly thought out plans and ideology. We need them. And they need us. If we want to make anything better that is. We need to break through the cynicism and nihilism and convince them that there is a way for things to be better.

    It's not a small task by any means.

    barsquid ,

    The .ml users who are urging everyone to not vote don't agree.

    It is obvious that it would be easier to reach better governance without having a wannabe dictator in the executive branch appointing theocratic clowns into judgeships. But they actually want Donald in there to destabilize the US so that China can gain ground.

    They don't even deny it, I get reactions from them on a spectrum from "based based based based" to "any amount of collateral damage to minorities or surrounding countries is acceptable as long as colonialists are being genocided."

    player2 ,

    True, it's not black or white, there's a spectrum of beliefs within those communities.

    goferking0 , (edited )

    stop giving us shitty choices

    these guys want fascist shit heads

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    stop giving us shitty choices

    *these guys want fascist shit heads *

    "I'm unhappy with the shitty choices, so I'm going with the fascist shithead" is a rather fascist thing to say.

    goferking0 ,

    Reading compression isn't a strength if that's how you read it

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    Reading compression isn’t a strength if that’s how you read it

    harrys_balzac ,

    Wow if the folks on ml and hexbear could read, thry might be upset - not sure they'd understand the math in the 3rd panel.

    jaybone ,

    I thought ml was still federated with .world so they should be able to read it? I don’t think hexbear is though. Or you mean they are illiterate?

    PugJesus OP ,
    @PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

    "If X could read" is a meme implying illiteracy, yes.

    Hexbear and Lemmygrad are defederated from .world, but .ml remains, you are correct.

    Kolanaki ,
    @Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

    World defederated from two of them them, but not the other way around so they could ALL still see posts from World; World just doesn't see posts from them.

    jaybone ,

    I figured they would have reciprocated. But I suppose if they did that for everyone that blocked them, they wouldn’t have much content.

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