Withhold military and financial aid and not veto a ceasefire or vote against Palestinian statehood. Israel is committing it with US weapons, money and political cover.
The issue with Palestine can be solved by Biden today if he wanted to. Call that UN ambassador with some different instructions. Throw out some sanctions conditional on getting aid through and a ceasefire done. The other issues in this comic require courts or congress, generally. Is genocide bad? Yeah. Should we stop it? Nah, not today. Voting for a guy who won't stop what's going on because he doesn't have a problem with it feels bad, no way around that.
Instead of a diplomatic avenue, you guys are going to help Trump get elected so he can speed up the process of the genocide of Palestinians, and then you are going to blame everybody but yourselves.
Don't worry, single issue voters are very rare. They're being loud right now on Lemmy, but I honestly don't see them anywhere else. I'm pretty sure at least a third are paid actors too, but I can't prove that.
Anyone who thinks that foreign or business interests wouldn't try to fan the flames of unrest in order to influence the election hasn't paid any attention to previous elections.
It doesn't mean that the reason for the unrest isn't valid. They found a weakness and they're going for it.
I am disgusted with Biden. Punishing his behavior at the general election will result in an even worse situation for the people of Palestine.
If being called out on supporting genocide is such a national security risk then maybe biden should stop supporting genocide. Then you get the benefit of removing that as an issue and, you know, not supporting genocide.
My biggest fear is that it could be a coping mechanism for us.
The right likes to use every opportunity against us, and while I've seen many instances of them manipuating "cancel culture" on the left, there's still a large number of people that are amnesiac about the Trump years, even if they're themselves being manipulated by the right to follow such things.
I wish I could get paid to post, but unfortunately, I signed a noncompete agreement with George Soros for a role as a paid actor in a false flag mass shooting so now I'm not allowed to be a paid actor in any other conspiracy theories. I'm just opposing genocide pro bono to keep my posting skills sharp so that I can apply once my contract expires.
So do I just send my resume to an embassy, or how does this work? I hope they don't do in-person interviews, because I'm a Sasquatch and don't want to expose my identity, but I do know some lizard people who might help me whip up a disguise if it comes to that. They mostly spend their time hanging around people with paranoid schizophrenia pretending to be normal people, so they'd probably be good references for this job, since it's essentially the same thing.
Funny, I feel the exact same way, except that I think it's the "if Biden dies and the Democrats resurrect and nominate Hitler, you still have to vote for them. You'd rather have Trump?" posters that are the paid actors.
Oh no, could RuSSiAn bOt faRms be covering all sides of the argument? how are we ever going to tell them apart from genuine conversation?
If Dems we're gonna give you those things, they'd have done when they had all three branches. I vote no for genocide. If some bullshit party fails to meet that, no fucking way can come back and say "yeah but, look at all these failed promises!" Fucking repulsive.
I rewrote my original response and this one is much more tame.
If you don’t vote for Biden, in our system, you are tacitly supporting Trump. You’re a fool if you think that Trump will do better, by any measure. Please don’t be stupid.
The only thing I’ll add is that like 3 of those signs are controlled by the Supreme Court. Which became crazy specifically because people didn’t listen to everyone who said Donald Trump would be the worst president this country has ever had and would flip everything for himself. There’s no way outside of enlarging the Supreme Court, forcing them to put term limits on themselves, and potentially calling a new constitutional congress that could change those things. Having democrats in control of the three branches means nothing if it only happens for 2 years every 78 moon cycles and only when 5/8 planets are in alignment while 3 exists in off-axis parallel (or some weird astrology bullshit).
Having Democrats in control of the entire government means nothing when they are too concerned about being fair and playing nicely with Republicans to move their agenda forward.
If the other guy being a fascist running on a platform of doing fascism isn't enough for you to snap into line, you're a fascist trying to feel moral about being a fascist.
Trump is denying the existence of the 13th and 19th amendments now and you're actually still on about how politicians should have to "earn your vote?"
Tell me you're white without telling me you're white.
Tell me you’re white without telling me you’re white.
You know that upholding and extending this system that props up white supremacy and imperialism hurts POC around the world, right? If you're willing to tacitly support a genocide because you can't imagine doing anything other than fill in a bubble at the voting booth, those amendments are already as good as gone. If those amendments are essentially voided, do you plan on just standing by to let it happen? The shitty people who want power know you're willing to sign off on heinous things if the alternative is worse. The marginalized will continue to fight, die, and become martyrs in history book while people like you would rather act out of fear (justified or not) and let the marginalized fight the same deadly status quo that keeps you comfortable and keeps them threatened.
Tell me you're white without telling me you're white.
See also the part where you compared being able to make a comparative harm judgement to "the right to not be owned by another person and the right to vote while woman might as well not exist anymore!"
Oh, so you didn't catch that I was comparing your justified terror with republicans' unjustified terror and how easily you can both be convinced to do terrible things.
The comic, to me, shows that there's a lot more at stake than Gaza this election season. Protest voting because Biden hasn't done more will make all those issues, especially Gaza, insurmountably worse.
Netanyahu isn't angling for a Trump presidency because of personal preference.
I appreciate your expression of your view of this comic as it’s genuinely much more good faith than what I feel the artist was going for, like /gen I agree with everything you say here.
Do you mind me asking if you know the source of this? I want to learn more about the artist and see if I am just totally misreading the intent of the work
edit 2: okay yeah i looked thru every comic of his since oct 7, and i just kind of see some minor both-sidesing of the genocide and absolutely no criticism of US or even corporate involvement in Israeli apartheid. so my original judgement of this artist as being kind of a patronizing loser stands.
Well, if you think there’s a lot at stake then I think the best course of action would to start getting things done. If you want to stop protest votes, then why are you yelling at the people who are protesting? They aren’t protesting tiny things, they are protesting the funding of a fucking genocide. Why are you not saying something like “Well, wouldn’t this whole issue have been avoided if Biden started putting pressure on Israel a month or two ago?”
Failing to do shit about gaza and then being like “Hey, I’m less evil over here” is playing chicken with a hand grenade while hoping you don’t notice that they can just as easily put the pin back in.
I think the best way to see this is like this:
the student protestors: “Stop the genocide now”
the anti-protest voters: “Hey, if we do nothing for 6 months and alienate you, its your fault that our inaction caused you to not vote”
You are placing the blame on the wrong people, and just throwing distractions and diversions from problems that could be fixed now to make biden likely to win.
Ok, so how will it get worse? Mass famine? Aid workers dying of thirst? Schools getting bombed? Hospitals getting destroyed? Aid trucks getting destroyed? Mass graves? Mass arrests? Intentional targeting of Palestinian journalists? AI drones targeting all males that are outdoors?
I don't think you understand what this genocide is about. It's not to exterminate the Palestinians, despite what Ben-Gvir wants. It's to make conditions so horrible that they all flee Gaza, before doing the same in the West Bank.
yes, exactly. Netanyahu doesn't fucking care where they go or how they get there, so long as their fascist government can keep up the Kahanist and Jewish Power Party support by not working with Arab nations.
Given the way conservatives have already used the judiciary to do this to an extent at state levels, yes. They used the Judiciary to strip Democrat governors of power in Wisconsin and North Carolina while using the judiciary to grant Republican governors those removed powers and more. The current federal judiciary would not grant a Democrat president dictatorial powers, but would grant them to a Republican preaident.
Apparently it's never the time to actually improve things because there are elections every two years and anyone disrupting party unity (which insists on keeping the status quo) at any time is supposedly a risk.
So long as we're stuck with a two party system, and money is wholly controlling the political process, your statement is true. Attempt to disrupt all you like, but vote like the person elected could ruin your life.
At some point we have to amend the Constitution to remove money from the political process, then disruption happens easily. Until then, unless ranked choice voting has been implemented in your local elections, voting for somebody with zero likelihood of winning is logically voting for the eventual winner.
I hope we someday have the reality of seeing more than two parties compete on a national level, but it's not happening in 2024. The youth needs to be much more organized and have much higher voter turnout before that's a possibility.
Just like school or mass shootings. Can't do anything about it cause too fresh, then can't do anything because another just happened so need to mourn for it and continue to not do anything
All these single issue voters upset about genocide and telling you not to support our leader are just foreign actors trying to destabilize Germany America.
True great leaders such as Putin do not do the genocides. This is why voting is not good. As we know, Biden does the genocides and we will not be voting because of this. Also I am interfluid attendant of college who is working for community of color.
Stopping gun violence is what the Gaza protestor is trying to to do. Banning bigotry? Yep, same. Save democracy? How? By standing strong with genocide? Not very fucking likely, imo.
For all of the people who will inevitably show up to say "But you can't criticize Biden, it's an election year": man, I can't imagine offering such a bad take completely unprompted and free of charge. People are throwing tomatoes at you from the shores of history, you just don't know it yet. Supporting genocide is wrong, period. If Biden doesn't want to be criticized for it, maybe he should stop supporting it.
For all of the people who will inevitably show up to say "But you can't criticize Biden, it's an election year":
I have never heard anyone say that. In fact, it's because you can criticize Biden and there's even an outside chance he'll listen that makes him the better candidate than the guy who listens to nobody ever, unless the message is how to make him more wealthy.
Edit: Actually, the only people I have heard say that are propagandists setting up straw men. Like you.
The only propaganda I want to spread is the propaganda of stopping genocide. I'd love to see Biden do it. Like, unironically. Please, as soon as possible.
Edit: incredible, I never thought I'd live to see "stop genocide" get down voted. What a world to live in. I realize my tone is kind of shitty, but wow, really.
Stopping gun violence is what the Gaza protestor is trying to to do.
Because Palestinians don't fucking shoot and kill people...? Way to jump the shark.
Hamas murdered more people in 1 day than every American school shooting combined.
Do you listen to yourself? What the fuck are you even talking about?
Banning bigotry? Yep, same
Hamas is an Islamic terrorist group founded on an explicit call for genocide against Israeli Jews.
They aren't flying rainbow flags or celebrating pride month this year, either.
Save democracy? How?
By voting against a self-described "dictator" who happens to also be an authoritarian kleptocrat who calls every election he's ever been in "rigged", pressured Secretaries of States to just make up votes, coordinated false electors to overthrow the election, pressured his VP to call the certification process into question and who generally doesn't believe in the peaceful transition of power.
I'm not gonna ask you to suck Biden's cock or anything, feel free to dislike his handling of the Israeli-Palestinian war (a war he neither started nor wanted to happen in the first place) if you want. It's my view that America's actions so far have actually saved thousands of lives in the region, and it's an objective fact that Biden has delivered more aide to Gazan civilians than anyone else. (Don't let that stop you from being pissed off at the wrong guy.)
But, seeing everything we've seen over the last 10 years, are you seriously going to deny that Trump and the Republicans are an existential threat to American democracy?
Supporting genocide is wrong, period
The Palestinians aren't innocent in this either--they (and the Arab League) threw the first punch back in 1948, and they (Hamas) threw the first punch on October 7th of last year. It takes 2 to tango. Both sides of this fight have been complicit in doing evil shit building up to the conflict we have today. When people say things like "Palestine should be free from the river to the sea", how can you read that as anything other than a call for genocide against Israeli jews? Hamas surrendered any facade of legitimacy when they conducted a terrorist attack on Israel last year (intentionally killing more people in a single day than Israel has been killing in Gaza on average). Hamas has fired something like 10,000 rockets at Israel (and that's not counting the attacks from Iran, Hezbollah, etc.), so how many thousands more people do you think would be dead today if Israel didn't have the capability to defend against those kinds of attacks?
The only peaceful, non-genocidal solution to this ~80 year war is a two-state solution in which Israelis and Palestinians learn to put aside their mutual hatred, dis-empower the extremists who run their societies, and coexist. Neither Hamas nor Netenyahu are capable of delivering this. Hamas will soon pay the ultimate price for their cowardice and terrorism (as they should), and hopefully the Israeli people will see that Netenyahu has failed to protect them and democratically remove him from power.
Yes, you have persuaded me that the only rational course of action remaining is to leave babies to die of neglect after you force hospital staff out at gunpoint, murder ambulance crews and their patients, murder aid workers, murder anyone in the same building as a militant in one of the highest density populations on earth, force men, women, and children to starve when the world is ready to deliver aid, tell people to go to refugee camps and then bomb the refugee camps, massacre people for rushing to a food truck to get food for the crime of being desperate and hungry, destroy their homes and possessions, reject peace deals that include the abolition of hamas as an organization, close off every means of escape, and then move your people into their land once you've sufficiently killed them off.
Of all the cases for genocide, you made, well, one of them. I would say that I hope you feel as good about it in the future as you do now, but I wouldn't mean it, because it's a fucking genocide and you're defending it. I get that you don't seem to want the extermination of all Palestinians, but you're going to bat for a government that does.
You engaged with a grand total of 0 of the points that I made. So A+ dodging I guess. Congratulations on being a classic bad faith actor.
Hamas are a terrorist organization that openly advocates for genocide and commits war crimes, murdering civilians in cold blood, taking hostages, operating out of hospitals and aide organizations, and using innocent people as human shields. They have a PR department, and they don't need any new hires right now, sorry.
The only peaceful, non-genocidal solution to the Israeli-Palestinian war is a two-state solution. Fuck Hamas, fuck Netenyahu, and also to a much lesser extent, fuck you. I didn't "make a case for genocide", you did. If you think Hamas are going to go down in history as heroes or freedom fighters, you're as dumb as you are ignorant of history.
I don't think they'll go down as heroes, I think this is going to go down more or less how native American genocide happened in the US west. Native Americans would do cattle raids or revenge killings, which were often used as justifications for even more violence against non-combatants (followed by the taking of that sweet, sweet land). Which is more or less what's happening here. I think the formation of the modern Israeli state was a huge mistake, and now we've got to deal with it. Ultimately, no solution's going to be popular, but letting the IDF commit genocide while saying "but HAMAS" ain't it. HAMAS has offered to disband itself in the latest peace talks, which Israel rejected. That really just leaves the naked truth that what Israel wants in the land, and if they've got to murder everyone there for it, that's a small price for the US to subsidize.
What about Republicans denting women healthcare, trying to overturn an election, pandering to an authoritarian who is currently facing a whole stack of felonies he most likely committed based on his bragging about them, and dtoking public anger by encouraginng violence?
Maybe we just want to avoid having the nation state start exterminating anyone who doesn't agree with a fascist MAGA government.
I’m with you in that trump is bad, and I will do what is needed when it comes time to vote to make sure he is not president again. BUT all that you listed is still not worse than the genocide of over 35,000people. All Biden needs to do is stop spending our tax dollars in support of this ethnic cleansing
What?! I know the US healthcare system is totally fucked and no potential president running this year is going to fix it, but when did the healthcare system start using 2,000 pound bombs and begin ethnically cleansing?
It says a lot about your character and what you actually value that you think the way Trump would allow Israel to treat Palestinians is preferable to what Biden is doing.
So brave, unlike the rest of us. Because yes my point was I'd love to choose genocide. Not that they both are horrific violations of human rights or anything like that.
I think that drawing back support for Israel is far more complicated than you folks realize.
But maybe you all have political science degrees and just don't feel like explaining your reasoning? I just know enough to know that is a sticky situation and isn't just as easy as canceling a Netflix subscription or something like many seem to think it is
If Ronald fucking Reagan was able to figure out how to withhold aid to Israel to get them to withdraw from Beirut and Lebanon, I'm sure Biden can. Reagan also allowed 21 UN resolutions against Israel. How utterly embarrassing it must be to be worse than Reagan on anything. I guess all they have to do is say "it's a complicated issue" ad nauseam until you actually believe nothing can be done about actively arming a genocide.
There's a difference in saying "it probably is more complicated than you realize" and "just shut up and accept genocide" but thanks for turning the conversation into this
Sorry I'm not going to "but he's just a widdle guy and it's complicated" when Biden sent over another $1 Billion in arms to Israel today. If trump was funding this genocide right now, you'd be acting differently.
Probably because trump would be wholeheartedly fueling the fucking fire. You know, like what's going to end up happening if people fuck around leading up to this November
The whole point of this imperialist project is to take something valuable from someone else. Why the hell would trump nuke the valuable waterfront property which Jared Kushner (and honestly probably trump himself) wants to buy as well as negatively impact the entire region for the rest of human life on earth? Do you have to escalate to near impossibilities to seem worse than what biden is currently doing? Half a million Palestinians are starving due to manufactured famine and you’d want that trajectory to continue because in a future they won’t be alive for, you would speculate they have it worse. Do you honestly care about their lives or are you using them for political leverage for your own sake?
If you don’t want the threat of another trump presidency, it’s time for you to start joining others to urge biden to reverse course, because you won’t be able to convince me that supporting genocide is a single issue that can be overlooked.
We both know trump will make it worse, and you're advocating for trump whether accidentally or not. It gets harder and harder to buy that people don't understand the two party system, i just have to assume you don't care about actual consequences, only feeling superior. Which your last question hints at.
Do I feel superior to someone who thinks genocide isn’t a non-negotiable? Sure. But the issue here is that biden would rather lose to trump than change course and do the right (and also popular) thing. He might take down the entire Democratic Party with him as well, and then we’re stuck with a single party with trump at the head. Biden’s team knows how unpopular this all is. And with the general theme of elections being “republicans fall in line, democrats fall in love”, biden having a lower approval rating than trump is such a wild warning sign. If Biden loses, the blame will be his own.
You could oppose funding this war but also remain clear that you understand the fact that Trump would be FAR worse.
But you did not choose that. You chose to completely avoid talking about that primary fact in this conversation. You've chosen to pretend all that matters is sending a message.
So what you've created is a situation where you're morally indefensible while claiming the opposite. Your actions will lead to exponentially more human suffering if enough people join you in this misguided asinine Russia-funded propaganda campaign.
So yeah you have no grounds to feel superior. You're the worst: a person who doesn't care about who they hurt, but cares deeply about their own feelings. And you're looking down your nose at people who can see basic cause and effect as though they're scum
What leverage do you hope to impart on democratic leadership if you say “okay okay fine, do a genocide as long as trump isn’t president! I’ll vote for you!” If they know they have your vote, why would they change course?
I have so much more to lose should trump become president than biden. Of course I would be better off if biden was president since I’m queer in a ruby red state. But my comfort and safety isn’t remotely comparable to genocide. If all this is on the line- if trump brings about unfathomable human suffering, if the fate of the country and the entire world is at stake, why isn’t Biden trying harder to win? Why is he doubling and tripling down on this extremely unpopular move?
You might think that it’s propaganda fueled, and you’re right, but I don’t think you’re seeing the entire picture. Of course propagandists will try to inflame existing issues (though I’d argue that genocide in itself is an issue worthy of ire). But if a propagandist decided to deride and chastise those who are against genocide, that is more likely to cause those people to stay home since “it’s essentially giving a vote to trump”. But if they vote for Cornell west or Claudia de la Cruz, they will still likely vote for progressives or even democrats down the ballot. Leftists staying home due to negative discourse around protests and anger against Biden’s actions will cement Republican control not only federally, but locally as well. Both of us likely have an army of propagandists fighting on our sides, so it’d be best to keep that in mind when in these discussions. Biden is likely to lose since this democracy isn’t strong enough to keep trump off the ballot while biden is not trying hard enough to win, but the degree of his loss is what’s to be determined.
The primary fact in this discussion isn’t that trump would be worse- of course he would be. The primary fact is that continuing down this road where one party is always a bit more fascist and huge groups of democrats are now ratcheted so far to the right, they’re being stripped of a moral code and being too afraid to fight injustices that are signed off by their hands, it WILL eventually give us fascism in our lifetime whether it is trump or someone else.
okay then why don't you tell me why "there are multiple genocides happening while biden is president" is a relevant point to bring up in context that helps your case
