I'm deeply uncomfortable with the amount of people calling those wholly opposed to complicity in genocide as "single issue voters". Sure, if genocide isn't enough of a concern for you to oppose candidates that are complicit, then I guess you can call it "single issue".
We're talking genocide here, so I'm going to compare this to the most known genocide on the planet. Imagine if we knew about and could see the Holocaust occurring as it happened when it started, and FDR was funding the Reich including circumventing congress. Would you expect people to still vote for FDR, or would you expect people to oppose his candidacy? This caliber of rhetoric as well as this post has turned this leftist away from my plan to vote for Biden. Nice work folks. I'll be voting for Cornel West and trying to keep the liberal trifecta in my state legislature this year.
If Trump wins, funding for Israel will increase, and even more Palestinians will die. So basically, you're valuing your purity over human lives. Which is quite fascist, if you think about it.
No, it's fucking not. Cornel West opposes funding to Israel, supports a 2 state solution, and supports the same issues strawmanned by lady liberty. I value the end of a genocide as well as a socialist economy. If neither of the mainstream candidates will stop the genocide, I'm going to vote for the only candidate that wants to stop the genocide as well as handle the other issues I care about, in a way I'd align with. My barely tepid patience with Biden and supporters like you has run out.
The reality is that either Trump or Biden will win and if you're not voting for either of them then, practically speaking, you might as well not vote at all. Third party candidates only ever get a tiny fraction of the overall vote and that's not going to change this time.
Biden is the less genocide candidate. He's been getting aid into Gaza, putting pressure on Israel, and directing funds towards humanitarian aid. All of that would cease immediately under trump.
Realistically, the best way to reduce genocide is through protest, donations, and activism. Electorally, the best option is to vote for Biden in the hopes we can keep trump from making thing unimaginably worse.
clearly my message went over your head. Either a candidate supports a genocide, or they don't. Biden can wag his finger all he wants, he's still complicit in genocide. The truth is that he's handling Israel more conservatively than Ronald Fucking Reagan.
If you put things in such stark black and white terms then every president has supported genocide; they've been funding Israel since the beginning, and America itself is built on stolen, colonized, and occupied land.
In truth elections have consequences, and across the board things will be substantially worse under trump than Biden.
I think you forgot that I stated I'm a leftist. Specifically I'm an anarchist. I already think every president in history is a criminal. I'm talking about what's happening in the here-and-now in the midst of the second Nakba.
Didn't you say you were going to vote for Cornel West? What are his thoughts on the genocide of Native Americans and whether the land should be returned to them?
He made a statement on Indigenous People's Day about what he already plans to do and states plainly that he needs to do more work as a scholar and activist to learn about how to bring justice to the Native Americans that were genocided in pursuit of Manifest Destiny.
To this end, today I’m pleased to announce that as president, I will establish a Federal Office for Tribal Equity and Liberation ... This office will be charged with guiding and assisting me with confronting and dismantling challenges specific to our Indigenous siblings - from access to clean water, clean air, and a healthy environment, to ending the epidemic of Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, to ensuring that all treaties are upheld and respected in ways that are perpetually monitored and evaluated to increase justice and maximum efficacy. This office will also inform my administration on the best and most expeditious ways to codify and enforce FPIC (Free, Prior and Informed Consent), as well as the Land Back Commission I’m committed to forming as part of my Policy Pillars for a Movement Rooted in Truth, Love, and Justice.
Bringing justice to those that were genocided would entail ending the occupation, returning all stolen land to their ancestors, and probably transferring all assets to them. Not some half-assed "I'll strive to create an office to ease the pain"
part of his platform is to use FPIC to return land equitably to tribes, as well as issue various reparations. It's hard to get any more clear than that. Cornel West has always meant exactly what he says.
Just FYI, there are some really unfortunate but good reasons why tribal land has no equity and is unable to be used as collateral. For something to have value, there needs to be an interested seller and an interested buyer - but if reservation land is sold, it leaves the hands of the tribe and just becomes regular old white people land. We'd like tribal members to have access to that equity to use as collateral for debt... but we also don't want to disintegrate the reservations. There are good reasons for tribal land to be non-transferable, and we really shouldn't change that - however, there have been proposals for the government issuing uncollateralized loans as a form of reparations that are extremely interesting.
He just pledged more money so they can keep bombing kids. I'm not in the US but it's the same deal here in the UK. I'm not gonna vote for a guy who is trampling on my rights just to avoid the guy who does it a bit more, I'm gonna vote for who I want. We have first past the post voting here which makes my vote "wasted" but voting for the slightly less evil guy isn't the way to fix it.
I would agree with this if not for the fact that you live in an absolute farce of a democracy where voting for a third party is nothing but a protest vote. Which seems fine to do in a state that will vote majority democrat anyway, but plain irresponsible in one that won't.
Discouraging people from voting 3rd party only ever hurts Democrats and liberal candidates. We're not just electing the president, which is where most of the 3rd parties appear, we're voting for everything. Telling people in battleground states that voting for "their guy" is pointless will stop the liberal and progressive people that support Cornel and Stein from going to vote. Those people vote Democrat down-ballot.
I think it depends on how people/voters see the particular conflict. When Bush jr put a genocide on the Taliban, he had a lot of support. When Obama put one on ISIS, he had a lot of support. When Biden stopped US support for genocides in Yemen or Rwanda, voters didn't really seem to care one way or another.
When did Biden interfere with the Rwandan genocide, famously known for global inaction as the Hutus killed nearly 1 million Tutsis? Fuck off with this transparently bad faith talking point.
it was a bad, wrong, evil thing that happened when the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, but it was not a genocide. Same with how Obama handled drone strikes, well, everywhere in the region. I did not have the context that you unintentionally referenced the wrong events and it was the simplest point to address. I apologize for leveraging that accusation
I think it's weird you're downplaying these other genocides to defend taking a stronger position on Gaza
The Lancet estimates 2,5% of the Iraq population killed because of the US invasion between 2003-2006. They're nearing 1,5% in the Gaza strip (but it's slowing down). So I would think it's weird to say it's normal people are protesting the Gaza one so much while not really caring about the Iraq one, back in the day.
(Sorry I hope I'm somewhat exagerating but I also hope you see my point)
What you're hoping nobody looks up is that the Lancet decided most deaths during that period were attributable to the invasion. Even gang and tribal violence. In the breakdowns they only say ~180,000 deaths were due to coalition actions. Which is in line with most other studies.
So that's about 4,600 deaths a month. Altogether 0.6 percent of the population. Per month? 0.017%
Now let's do Gaza. We hit 30,000 deaths in how many months? 5? Hell let's give them 6. That's 5,000 people a month in a county a tenth of Iraq's size. Literally 2.3 million people. 1.3 percent of the population, double the coalition numbers from Iraq.
And that's before the hospitals were too destroyed to keep counting deaths. Before we've tallied the death toll of Israel's man made famine. Before we've dug the bodies out from under the rubble.
Don't try to whataboutism this with bullshit numbers. It's not a good argument even when the US actually did something. But trying to make it up too? You deserve to be laughed out of here.
Why would you want to include every single death in Gaza and then coldly say 450.000 excess deaths (read that number again) in Iraq 'don't really count'?
Because the coalition didn't encourage the civil war in Iraq and they pumped as much aid into Iraq as they could by air, land, and sea.
Israel is doing the exact opposite. They want people to fight Hamas. They are restricting aid. They are preventing civilians from leaving the combat area.
Everyone wants to forget that in 2004 the Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds fought mercilessly over territory. It's why their constitution is set up to have a leader from each faction.
Lmao I'm sorry. You think the US committed genocide in Afghanistan and Syria? I must have missed the part where we carpet bombed them and withheld food.
So now we're pulling out the propaganda pieces. This would be the first time I've ever heard of the US bombing civilians excavating Raqqa. That's just not corroborated anywhere. Even Amnesty International blames ISIS for holding the civilians there. They also put the civilian death toll at 1,500, which is a bloody miracle if there were 25,000 civilians being held hostage in the city.
The closest thing I could find is a relief web article saying the US didn't help civilians evacuate. Which isn't surprising because that's not something that happens unless you're the defending military. And then it's usually actually the police and first responders anyways.
And I'm not surprised 80 percent of the city was destroyed. The only enemy left were the ISIS fighters that had mentally prepared themselves to die fighting. They weren't going to let a single inch of ground go uncontested.
Edit to add - You still haven't explained how that would be a genocide either though. There was a massive evacuation of civilians before the siege started. It's a city of 500k-750k people.
I've linked you an article where you can learn about the US military 'shooting every boat they saw crossing the river'. I can imagine you haven't really heard about the details of the siege of Raqqa because, well, most people didn't want to know. There's a lot you can find though, same goes for sieges like Mosul or Fallujah: a final siege against a dug in enemy is never going to be pretty. White phosporous, thermobaric weapons, ... War crimes. It's either that or a lot more casualties for the attackers.
And regarding your final paragraph: Israel is encouraging massive evacuation of civilians as well. It's not like they're not letting anyone out of Rafah, it's just that Egypt is not letting any refugees through (unless they pay) which results in them running around in circles. But rest assured that they would not have let Raqqa 'of the hook' if those civilians hadn't left
Lmao no they aren't. They designated a tiny area, and they don't allow them to leave Gaza. Then they keep attacking into the area they forced them to move to. When you allow people to evacuate you do so to a non combat area.
And again. That's not corroborated anywhere. Groups like Amnesty International have no problem coming after the US.
You're also still not talking about the 95 percent of Raqqa that was evacuated. If that was a genocidal act they would not have been allowed to do so.
Since Oct. 7, Israeli authorities have continued to block Palestinians in Gaza from fleeing into neighboring Israel to seek even temporary refuge from the hostilities, in violation of international law.
No. Because Israel controls the border crossing. And even if they weren't it wouldn't absolve Israel of it's sins. Just like western countries accepting Jewish refugees would not have absolved Germany.
And I'm deeply uncomfortable thinking that giving a chance to the candidate that thinks Hitler is a great guy AND the USA should do some of the same things as Nazi Germany while he'll ALSO keep funding Nazi Germany, but even harder, is sane - let alone even a viable argument for those already opposed to the current choice already funding genocide.
Even the EU is learning how stupid Americans are and are making plans to not rely on it at all + make entry harder (next year you won't be able to travel to just countries here for extended stay easily anymore by passport alone for example). And dumbasses like you are proving there's a severe lack of critical thinking.
USA definitely deserved to lose that spot long ago, but NOT if it means China takes its place - don't think y'all are so special as to be the only world super power. Pre - Xi maybe, but Xi has made it clear they want to go the "world emperor" path and China would also be a terrible Steward. At least the USA doesn't kidnap foreign citizens / expats to make them disappear, or actively trying to annex loca countries anymore.
But we do know that Trump would do something similar (Khashoggi being a good example). The fact is the USA would still be a world leader because the existing economic and military connections it has wouldn't disappear overnight - the only difference is the world would be a worse place.
Although Biden is obviously a terrible candidate, it's just not even a contest that Trump is greatly, significantly worse. The Democrats are definitely seeing a "cry wolf" effect because although previous Republican candidates have indeed been terrible, none (aside from Bush Jr) have really threatened the power structure of the USA as much as Trump term 2 would.
If you still have doubts, read Project 2025. They are literally telling you they will turn the USA into a Christo-fascist autocracy.
Naw. We'd have the same headwinds China is facing. Yes support in developing countries would be buyable. However the EU, Canada, and Australia would move away from us. We'd feel that, right in the GDP. Our Asian allies would likely maintain a veneer of friendship to help ward off China but they would also be moving to not depend on us anymore.
People underestimate just how much power and money the US gets from it's alliances. So while yes, China is there, they wouldn't move to take our position. The world would just return to a mutli-polar system faster than it already is.
As to Trump vs Biden. I refer to my comment above. Genocide is a deal breaker no matter what party letter is next to your name.
The "if Trump wins" folks are angry at the implication that their vote is tacit support of genocide, but are fine with the implication that not voting for Biden is tacit support for Trump
I admire third party voters in the US, trying to bring down the 2 party system.
The thing is that unlike previous elections, this one could actually break down democracy.
Trump is going even more insane than previous elections, or even during his time in office. Calling himself "dictator for a day". All so if he gets elected, he can just pardon himself and get rid of the huge amounts of criminal charges. He doesn't care who he has to step on to achieve this.
All to the delight of Putin of course, it is widely known how deep Trump is in his pocket. He backs Trump so Trump can get the US to retreat from NATO, and destabilise Europe and the US so he can war further in all the Slavic countries that he considers USSR territories without issue.
That is also why we encounter so many Russia bots and shills. To make it seem the "genocide joe" issue is much bigger than it actually is.
I'd love for Biden to change his stance on sending Israel weapons, but not if it means increasing the chance of WW3.
And don't kid yourself, WW3 will inch closer if Trump gets reelected.
I admire third party voters in the US, trying to bring down the 2 party system.
It is a pretty misinformed attempt, considering that voting for a third party will never bring down the US 2 party system. It will at best replace one of the 2 parties with another party. The 2 party system is baked into the US political system on account of its election laws, and it will take some major revisions of the US constitution to change that to something else.
That’s essentially what happened with the Whigs. The leadership decided that they weren’t going to decide one way or another on a strong stance for/against slavery, ignoring the pleading of their own constituents. So the anti slavery ex-Whigs made Lincoln’s Republican Party and the Whigs never recovered.
So not only is biden likely handing the election to trump, the moral outcry that is being ignored might kill the Democratic Party for good.
I don't get this Schrödingers democracy thing here. The American people should save democracy by voting for Biden to stop Trump. But they can't make demands against the pro-Israeli positions of Biden.
You aren't even in the real election phase, the election is in six months, and people can't criticize or demand better action from their own elected president. Hell, I've seen these kinds of memes since the primaries, which are meaningless for Bidens candidacy except that you can send signals that you maybe have to change your course. But nothing has changed at all since then either, only empty words. How is this democratic then?
I'm not even saying that Biden has to do everything the most radical people on the pro-Palestine side demand. But Biden doesn't even try to find a compromise. He could maybe leverage the power that the American government has over Israel to stop the bombing of Gaza. If he feels brave he could even demand the stop on more settlements.
It's the Schrodingers democracy of the shrodingers "free" world we live in — Politics is pay to play, corporations are people and both can donate unlimited money, wealth equality is worse than the guilded age, but we totally have "democracy" bro. Also you should shut up and support a genocide because we're fighting to prevent the fascists from taking power, which will surely lead to genocide... Only worse!
This is the kind of discourse you get with a 2 party system ruled by a corporatocracy masquarading as a democracy — the propagandized neoliberal drones are most of the comments you read. Ultimately vote for Biden, because the alternative is literal Christian fascist dictatorship, but give Biden and neoliberals hell; make them believe they're gonna lose all the way to voting day.
give Biden and neoliberals hell; make them believe they're gonna lose all the way to voting day
I agree with this, but people really need to stop qualifying every critique with their intent to vote for him anyway. Biden has already been saying he doesn't believe his polling numbers are real (why liberals aren't panicking about that indifference is beyond me), we really can't be sending mixed signals here.
He risks losing if he doesn't change course, full stop. He needs to know that risk is real.
How much of an issue would it be if it was you running away with your family from place to another, starving and getting bombed, to realize the next morning, that you have lost your mom and have to burry your sister, your kids are under the rubble, one is limpless for life now, another is dead, another still missing.
How would you feel if the people selling and enabling your genocide, or the people who have the power to step in and help, are discussing school lunch and economy issues, while yours are non-existant. I bet you cannot afford to give half a fuck about the economy, or college tuition, or housing affordability, or nothing else.
War and genocide cannot simply be dissmissed as another issue. This issue is literally life and death, pain and torture, and every decision that causes it to happen is everything of someone's life.
Both parties support Israel. Voting will not prevent the genocide regardless of who you vote for or if you don't vote at all. But a whole host of other issues that affect peoples' lives WILL be affected by that choice. So rather than focus on what you have zero control over as far as voting goes, focus on what you do.
All these single issue voters upset about genocide and telling you not to support our leader are just foreign actors trying to destabilize Germany America.
Looks like there is a crystal clear direction Biden can take and win over a substantial amount of voters. I'm not sure blaming people protesting genocide for Biden's drop in approval ratings, rather than Biden himself for tanking them, will encourage anyone to vote for Biden.
I am not saying we shouldn't vote for Biden, but acting like we shouldn't be protesting the genocide of Palestinians is bullshit. I know Trump would be worse, but it doesn't mean we should speak out against Biden sending weapons that directly aid in the death of children.
We can't just pretend he isn't complicit in war crimes just because the other option is worse. We should be able to speak out against the atrocities.
I am not sure this is effective against those voters. If anything it's shaming, at best, which causes people to dig their heels in. Addressing those voters as petulant children is not the way to bring them on board.
But the point isn't to convince the voters who are being shamed, but to lessen the reach of their talking points to undecided or on-the-fence voters by pointing out the absurdity of the talking points being pushed.
If some clown is out there, trying to convince everyone clown makeup is the new style, the goal of mocking the clown is not to get the clown to take off their makeup, it's to remind everyone that clown makeup being 'the new style' is fucking absurd no matter how many times or how loudly it's repeated, and will make you look like a goddamn clown.
The people who are on the streets organising and protesting for Palestine are the same people who are doing all kinds of organising: unionising workplaces, mutual aid, street medics, etc. to build up communities and create actual positive change in society.
Do-nothing liberals will do absolutely nothing but complain every day of the year. Democracy isn’t a matter of voting once every 4 years.
Besides, most of these people, despite being highly critical of Biden and will show up to vote on the day. They’re just not going to spend the rest of their time campaigning for a lost cause.
Why not put some of the blame on liberals who aren’t doing enough? Or maybe the reactionaries and fascists who do not give a fuck about what the vote says and will do everything in their power to obstruct, ignore, overturn and use violence to get the outcome they want. You’re delusional if you think fascists will just go away if Biden gets the vote.
The comic is highly uncritical of any of the levers of power. In fact it entirely omits any imagery pertaining to politicians or legislators or any political party. So the only people it is directed at are those protesting the genocide in Gaza as though it came at the expense of other issues, while giving those in power who have actually ignored or even fought those issues a complete fucking pass.
Like it doesn't even mention Biden or any sort of strategy or demands the protestors might have, even. Just shames people for protesting a genocide.
The implication is clear, the issues are all matters of voting including "save democracy". It's the statue of Liberty, a clear symbol of American democracy. It is clearly directed squarely at people saying protest by not voting for Biden.
I get the gravity of the situation, but Trump's side has repeatedly made it clear they would go harder on Gaza.
At least Biden allows the protests to happen. Under Trump, the first protest would be the last as he would immediately mobilize the National Guard and authorize the use of lethal force to suppress it.
Is he, though? I know the president isn't directing this stuff directly, but the harshest crackdowns have been in cities run by democrats, in democratically run states. As the leader of the party he could've told local administrators to respect free speech rights of protestors.
You know what? I don't know he isn't directing this stuff directly. All the crackdowns happened at the same time in all those Democratically controlled cities, almost like it was coordinated and that someone at the top ordered it.
I was trying to be charitable to Biden, but yeah, the whole thing of 'Trump would've sent the national guard instead' thing isn't really functionally different.
On the other hand, there's examples of administrators engaging the protestors and giving concessions up to a point where they voluntarily cleaned up their encampments.
As opposed to the police currently beating the shit out of protestors. I understand it would be worse under trump, but that's a really low fucking bar. We should be asking for better, not settling for the regime which is only maiming protestors instead of killing them.
“If Nixon wins again, we’re in real trouble.” He picked up his drink, then saw it was empty and put it down again. “That’s the real issue this time,” he said. “Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”
I nodded. The argument was familiar. I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
– Hunter Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72
Lol, I mean I get why you feel this moment is unique, but i'm looking through NYT articles from 1972 and if you take out the dated references you could almost mistake them for articles written in 2024:
To the Editor: When a Democrat for Nixon says “I'll vote holding my nose, but McGovern is not a big enough man to be President,” or “I don't like him, but there is no viable alternative,” or an uncommitted Democrat says “McGovern doesn't turn me on,” such remarks are liberalese for “I'm doing alright the way things are, and can't take a risk of any change in the status quo.” - NYT Letter to the Editor 10/19/72
"Lawrence F. O'Brien, the na tional campaign chairman for the McGovern‐Shriver ticket, accused the Nixon Administra tion yesterday of sanctioning tactics of “political espionage” that bordered on those of “a fascist state.” - NYT O'Brien Charges 'Political Espionage'" - 10/14/72
"Deceit, deceit, everywhere deceit—but especially on the political and cultural left, says Arnold Beichman, and most out rageously in the writings of the youth lovers (Marcuse, Slater, Sontag, Roszak, Reich and the rest). They say “America is al ready a fascist country or is on the road to fascism,” that the country “is guilty of genocide,” that “the Bomber Left ... is a moral force” They claim the white “American worker ... is a retrograde, decadent, self ish creature: a honky,” that “our political system is an ut ter fraud, particularly the two‐ party system,” that “American values are wholly materialistic,” that “America is insane,” and that our primary need is for “a violent revolution.” " - NYT, "Nine Lies About America", 10/8/72
I'm having a great time reading through these actually, it's interesting reading the op-eds from back then.
I think this is a great example of the rachet effect in action. We are now at the point where it has rachet-ed into the Democratic party enabling genocide versus the Republican party enabling genocide and having a plan for turn the US into an overtly fascist nation.
It's important to vote Biden in the general, it's just as important to criticize and protest Biden (plus the Democratic and Republican parties) for their continued support of genocide militarily and on the international stage
the point the person above was making was that they're always sick of voting for the lesser of two evils and your response is 'but this one is really evil?'
Uh... Nixon was terrible. He resigned in disgrace. Even Republicans shunned him after he left. It's hard to put into words how much Nixon disappeared from modern society.
Without a second Nixon term, Watergate is probably not as big of a deal. Then Fox News is never created. You can see where I'm going with this.
The point is, yes every election is important. Be grateful you can vote, and that your vote counts. It hasn't been the norm for most of human history.
There's still Armenians everywhere too, and Jews for that matter. Just because you didn't get them all doesn't mean you didn't commit a genocide. This is just a ridiculous point.
No one I know who does serious work on Palestine is only working on that one issue, wasn't doing anything before and won't do anything after. Burnout is incredibly high among activist leaders right now. Cut us some slack please
I think there's a lot of anger that anything is being tried at all. The expectation and goal is that nothing be done, which those in your opposition cannot help but reveal every time with their incessant brow beating.
Withhold military and financial aid and not veto a ceasefire or vote against Palestinian statehood. Israel is committing it with US weapons, money and political cover.
You SHOULD vote for Joe, but fucking hell this is HIS fault. Voters are a swirling mass of people. It might as well be fluid dynamics. Bad policies and apathy WILL affect support. It's going to. You can't stop it. You can't shame it back again either. You can't win back tent guy's vote by blaming him for Joe Biden's failures.
The most recent weapon shipment is actually on Congress, Joe Biden didn't want to send it and was forced by a congressional resolution led by Republicans because they know people won't look into it and the president will take the fall out.
I left some resources to back up these claims in a previous comment .
That sounds like a classic Republican thing to do and I don't doubt it. But it's a small detail. Biden's soft touch has allowed Netenyahu to commit war crimes without a second thought throughout this whole thing.
