How to work with someone that regularly arrives as the wrong answer?

I work with a person that went presented with a problem, works through it and arrives at the wrong solution. When I have them show me the steps they took, it seems like they interpret things incorrectly. This isn't a language barrier, and it's not like they aren't reading what someone wrote.

For example, they are working on a product, and needed to wait until the intended recipients of the product were notified by an email that they were going to get it. the person that sent the email to the recipients then forwarded that notification email to this person and said "go ahead and send this to them."

Most people would understand that they are being asked to send the product out. It's a regular process for them.

So he resent the email. He also sent the product, but I'm having a hard time understanding why he thought he was supposed to re-send the email.

I've tried breaking tasks down into smaller steps, writing out the tasks, post-mortem discussion when something doesn't go as planned. What other training or management tasks can I take? Or have I arrived at the "herding kittens" meme?

GeoGio7 ,

Maybe try and see if they are suffering mentally? Mental illness like depression can slow down brain processes.

Atomic ,

intended recipients of the product

Do you mean "the customer"?

The way you communicate (at least in English) is needlessly convoluted.

You already know they interpret your instructions incorrectly. You admitted yourself that, that is the problem. The solution in my world would be to give better instructions.

Brkdncr OP ,

Yeah, it’s vague on purpose. No, not customers.

LifeOfChance ,

Intended recipient of the product doesn't have to mean customer. Could simply be sending something to a coworker or any number of options. The provided information seems completely understandable. It's possible that what we are getting vs the person being told could be very different though.

StaticFalconar ,

If the writing in the post is any indication of the level of writing and communication at work, OP needs to work on their communication skills.

irotsoma ,
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds like the instructions were unclear so the person implemented all possible interpretations in order to avoid any misinterpretation causing problems. If they were forwarded an email and told to send "this" to someone, I can easily see that being interpreted as the email itself. Especially if this wasn't the first time your instructions were unclear and they got in trouble for not guessing the right interpretation. Being more clear and saying "the product" instead of just "this" might help or even saying the name of the product. Good communication is about being precise, but brief.

If people are always having to guess your intentions, then some are going to get it right and some won't. Some will learn how you think and how to interpret your vague instructions and some won't. But if you learn better communication skills to be more direct in your instructions and leave fewer things open to interpretation, then there won't be any need for people to guess your intentions. Remember, no one else has the information in your head, only the information in your communication.

Brkdncr OP ,

I agree, but here is some more info:

Employee seems to misunderstand requests from most people and published documentation at a rate much higher than others.

Employee has had years to figure out how people communicate with them.

In this case I wasn’t the one that worded the request poorly, it was someone else. I have adapted to using lists when making requests, and avoiding vague statements, but I can’t expect everyone to adapt to this person and I can’t be there to translate everything for them.

dingus , (edited )

Employee has had years to figure out how people communicate with them.

Maybe your employee does have more difficulty understanding than the average person, but this is such a bullshit excuse.

Everyone communicates differently. What is obvious to someone may not be obvious to others. Some people need a little more precision in the instructions you give to them. I don't see why it would be unreasonable to provide that.

I'm reminded of an interaction with my supervisor the other day...

Me: Hello. This case has <issue>. Am I ok to proceed with <issue> or does it need to be corrected first?

Supervisor: Have <Company name> figure it out.

<Company name> has literally thousands of employees so I have no idea why she said it like that.

Me: Uhh...do you want me to ask <Name of specific higher up person>?

Supervisor: No, have them figure it out.

Me: Who is them?

Supervisor: <Lower level assistant>.

For context, <Lower level assistant> usually asks us if they are ok to proceed, not the other way around.

Me: I don't think they will know the answer. Who should I have them ask?

Supervisor: <Company name>

Me: ?????

Supervisor: Have them ask <Name of a specific manager>

Me: Ok.

In this whole interaction, she was getting increasingly rude and irate with me for not being able to read her mind. If she would have just said she wanted <Name of a specific manager> to figure it out, she could have just told me to begin with instead of getting huffy and curt with me and unnecessarily prolonging the interaction.

Here's another example...

Supervisor: Hey, do you want me to move X out of the way somewhere?

Me: Nah, I don't mind it being there!

Supervisor: I don't want X there.

Me: <Supervisor>, I am not a mind reader. If you want something, you have to tell me.

Sometimes what is obvious in your brain is not obvious to those around you.

MudSkipperKisser ,

I don’t think your supervisor is mis-communicating, I think they just don’t know what they want. But they want you to still choose correctly even though there is no correct answer. It’s like when my husband asks what I want for dinner and I tell him “I don’t know, you pick”, there’s definitely a right and wrong answer for his decision but I don’t know it until he chooses it! Yes I know how messed up that is. Anywho, god speed to you

irotsoma ,
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

Is that employee autistic? One of the things that management requires is learning to communicate with all types of people and help others communicate. After all, your job isn't producing something, it's making sure your employees that do the actual work are able to do their job effectively.

I'm just using autism as an example because I happen to be on the spectrum, though I've learned to mask well over the years. Autism has tons of advantages in the way we think. Great at analysis, great at handling emergencies, etc., but our communication style is a little different. We tend to need communication to be direct and precise because we analyze things too much sometimes. Problem is that because we're so used to being misunderstood or misunderstanding people and getting into trouble for it and being scolded for asking clarifying questions because we "should just know what they meant", that we often don't ask the questions and try to interpret things in all the possible ways.

And maybe it's not even at this job that they were scolded, they just are used to neurotypical people scolding them for the way they think, that they no longer even try to ask questions. So my advice is to make sure the person is not only able to ask questions, but is encouraged to do so if they need to. Make sure to be very positive when they do and make sure the other people they interact with are positive as well. It's a very small accommodation that could help them thrive and end up being one of your best employees if given the right atmosphere.

Again, I'm using autism as an example because it's a commonly misunderstood condition that is not a disease and not curable, nor should anyone try to cure it, it is just a different way of thinking and is a spectrum of various types of ways of thinking that people are often forced to mask and so is commonly undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. Heck, I didn't figure it out until a few years ago and I'm in my mid-40s. But it took me decades to learn to effectively communicate without knowing why some people just couldn't get me. Even now I tend to over-communicate as you can see from this wall of text.

But as a manager you should try to get to know your employees' strengths and weaknesses, communication styles, etc., and help them to communicate more effectively with each other. It has helped me to be effective at coordinating people.

Brkdncr OP ,

If they are it’s not something that’s been told to me.

I’m very aware that people have different skills and limitations and adjust accordingly. I have done a lot, including helping organize tasks, reviewing issues when they come up, setting goals, positive reinforcement, asking how they want me to change to help them further, suggesting learning opportunities, suggesting social interaction opportunities…

Let’s not assume I came to post this without first trying different techniques, researching topics on how to manage people like this, and reaching out to management peers for possible solutions. I’ve had a few upper management people that knew this person tell me “some people just don’t get it” and “they have possibly hit their peak”

irotsoma ,
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

Ok, I was just assuming you were looking for advice, but if it's just a vent post, that's my bad.

Brkdncr OP ,

I probably should have included that these were all great responses; just that I’ve tried them.

intensely_human ,

I’m very aware that people have different skills and limitations and adjust accordingly. I have done a lot, including helping organize tasks, reviewing issues when they come up, setting goals, positive reinforcement, asking how they want me to change to help them further, suggesting learning opportunities, suggesting social interaction opportunities…

One thing you have not mentioned trying is encouraging others in the organization to replace the words “this” and “that” with the actual referent in their communications.

For example the email that said “send this to them”, could say “send the product to them”.

Disambiguating the words “this” and “that” in communication seem like a much more direct path to avoiding this problem than the steps you described.

Brkdncr OP ,

Thanks, I will do that. Keep in mind that I presented a single situation. It also applies to things like following documentation steps, and coming up with steps on their own to reach a defined goal.

intensely_human ,

Your employee is autistic, and suffers from low working memory.

Increasing the employee’s working memory through targeted working memory training will help with this.

Unfortunately, you probably cannot order them to do this training, or even mention the deficit while staying within HR rules.

intensely_human ,

As an autistic person, I will say that the word “this” is one of my biggest stumbling blocks in communication.

BaroqueInMind ,

@OP, simply reading your post reveals to me you suck at communicating. What was the part about emails? That shit makes no sense how you wrote that.

Brkdncr OP ,

Agreed. I didn’t proof what I wrote very well.

This example didn’t involve me though, so my poorly written post and writing style shouldn’t have impacted this situation.

Grimy ,

They are being difficult, it's quite clear what happened.

Anyways, no matter how vague you are, it isn't normal to think the email is the thing that needs sending when the email chain itself is about sending out a product.

Sounds like he has some form of dyslexia. Best thing to do is be as clear as you can with him and expect him to take things very literally. Its a tough line to walk though since it's easy to come off as patronizing and have him feel insulted.

aStonedSanta ,

I think you mean autism more so than dyslexia. But they do go hand in hand.

thermal_shock ,

please translate it them, cause idk wtf I would be expected of me with all those variables.

Grimy ,

What part don't you understand?

thermal_shock ,

care to explain?

Grimy ,

What part needs translating? What is it that you find hard to understand?

thermal_shock ,

every single bit. if you're not going to translate it to someone a normal person can understand, then fuck off and stop replying to me

Grimy ,

I'm only replying because you were asking me to translate it and talking about variables. You aren't making much sense yourself and I was asking you to specify specifically because I'm not going to rewrite his whole post lol.

dingus , (edited )

Ok I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused. Idk if I'm just stupid, but I read the OP three times and cannot for the life of me understand what was supposed to happen with the emails and products. Can someone explain it to me?

Edit: Ok, I get it now after taking a few minutes, but the instructions are still vague. "This" is not a specific indication. Sounds like the employee sent both the product and the email just to be safe because the instruction was ambiguous. It sounds like the employee was uncertain what was meant, but for whatever reason didn't ask for clarification.

So why didn't they ask? Does this employee get pushback for asking for clarification? Were they being lazy? Are they an anxious person? There are many possibilities here.

BaroqueInMind ,

Summary is that OP sucks at communicating and blames other people for their incompetence. Now they are in this forum seeking affirmation that they are not incompetent.

VirtualOdour ,

Have we started to get reddit style bait on lemmy now? There's no way someone can communicate so poorly in this and multiple responses while blaming someone else for not understanding.

It's pretty funny, I'll give you that.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

My wife told me, "please go to the store and buy a carton of milk and if they have eggs, get six."

When I came back with 6 cartons of milk she said, "why in the hell did you buy six cartons of milk?"

I said "they had eggs."

Sometimes being extremely specific helps some people understand. Anything that could have multiple meanings is always open to some interpretation. And while it would be nice if they asked for clarification, they may not because they think they fully understand the instructions.

Brkdncr OP ,

Great example/joke. A rational person would either understand that six eggs were wanted, or that six cartons of milk is an odd request and ask for confirmation that they understood the request correctly.

My problem to solve is how do I fix this? While clear instruction should be given, I can’t be there to translate every request this person receives, nor should I have to approve every action they want to take.

Froyn ,

A realist would get to the store and see they only sold eggs by the dozen and get 6 cartons of milk. 6 eggs isn't an available option so they must have been referring to the milk.
It's also possible they could have meant 6 dozen eggs.

scutiger ,

The answer is that a more precise request gets a more precise result. If you want six eggs, clarify that it's eggs you want six of.

It can be tedious for both sidesto think about all interactions in this way, but it's much more troublesome to have to deal with the fallout of a misunderstanding.

In the OP, the message could have been "Go ahead and send out this order" and nobody would have questioned what it was that had to go out.

aStonedSanta ,

I’ve taken to writing my notes on a ticket at work as a thought per line. All lead with a -

-writing lines of notes

-each line is capable to be its own

-visibly separate for each thought.

Then you get people. Who try to. Do stuff like this. Where the info is hidden in a paragraph and it’s just a mess to try and process quickly.

aStonedSanta ,

You claim you’ve tried and done things to assist this employee but it sounds like you are just looking for advice on justifying them being the problem.

surewhynotlem ,

I think you try having someone else explain it to them. Clearly you and they don't understand each other.

theOneTrueSpoon ,

being extremely specific

More like being eggstreamly specific

leaky_shower_thought ,

some people hate legalese, but after reading the situation, I think legalese is made for this sort of problems.

some people learn by example better than following instructions.

also context plays a lot when it comes to instructions. try to see things ahead if played in different contexts.

lath ,

Though language is an effective means of communication, it's not perfect.

To use an example, there was a meme about a literature professor quoting from a book and telling students what the author meant by mentioning the curtains being blue in a scene.
As they go on and on about the melancholy and sadness the author was known to experience at the time, Samuel L Jackson busts in through the door and yells "The color was blue because the curtains were blue, motherfucker!"

Or am I remembering it wrong? Anyway, language is open to interpretation and as such, people will interpret it openly.

Rentlar ,

It's fine if they get it wrong, you explain how you actually wanted it so they understand and then get it right, sometimes you have to spell out what you mean.

If you explained and showed what you wanted and how, after their mistake, then a 2nd or 3rd time they screw up in the same way that's an issue. Words can mean different things to people.

If it's a different screw up each time, and they aren't intentionally being obtuse, then you could probably be clearer or explain yourself better.

TrickDacy ,

I wish I knew. I have a coworker who flat out doesn't understand anything about his job and causes others to do all his work for him. He has been employed with us for a year and has barely improved. I personally would never give him a task because I know he'd fuck it up royally, causing a day task to be become a 5 day task while wasting hours of other people's time.

I have tried talking to managers about him and they won't listen. I cannot understand how he's not been fired. The motherfucker clearly is not working 90% of the time. His slack status shows him offline almost always, he doesn't respond to emails or GitHub notifications. He opens about 1 pull request per two weeks, and most of them have 50 or more comments from other developers pointing out the same mistakes he always makes. I think every single task he's successfully completed has been via pair programming, and when I've been involved it's been painful how little he gets. Baffling shit.

dyathinkhesaurus ,

I think I work with this guy.

TrickDacy ,

Are you saying you're clueless or you work with the clueless guy?

dyathinkhesaurus ,

Definitely the latter! 😁

TrickDacy ,

Haha gotcha. I feel for you. It is so painful... I don't get how no one above him sees it.

AlteredStateBlob ,
@AlteredStateBlob@kbin.social avatar

Not sure why so many people here comment that your communication style is vague.

Both instructions and issue are clear. Send product after notification was sent via mail. Colleague did that and aso sent the mail again, which had already been sent.

Why people are talking about the product being sent as the issue in thus scenario is beyond me.

As for a solution: Let them repeat back to you what they're supposed to do in their own words to verify you're both on the same page, before the do what they need to do.

If you have tried this unsuccessfully, I have no further suggestions without a whole lot more detail except for: ask theco worker in question how they would have phrased the task if they had given it to someone else. Try and learn what their style of communication is and adjust for that particular colleague.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

Most people would understand

...and some people would not understand.

If you want that the other party understands, then you need to be specific.

Brkdncr OP ,

if others were regularly coming to me with questions about my direction I would agree with you. In this case I was an outside observer to how the situation transpired, and the individual seems to run into this problem with me and others.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

the individual seems to run into this problem with me and others

Of course he does. People are people. Some are this, others are that.

What is your question? Do you want to change the other person? It never works. You can only change your own part.

Emperor ,
@Emperor@feddit.uk avatar

How to work with someone that regularly arrives as the wrong answer?

Yes.

SpaceNoodle ,

I'll join the others here saying that it's very unclear what you're requesting, what your colleagues did, what they were supposed to do, and what actually happened.

It may serve you well to look inwards for a solution to your problem.

Brkdncr OP ,

Vagueness was intentional.

In this case I was an observer, so my writing style didn’t affect the situation I had described. I’m also not the first to recognize this type of problem with the employee.

intensely_human ,

You don’t think your writing style affects your workplace? If you are indeed the manager, you are tasked, among other things, with establishing the culture of the team.

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