If the previous few dozen ethics violations have had literally no consequences whatsoever and there's absolutely no sign that anything is about to change on that front, I feel like the only purpose of these stories is to desensitize us to it and make it feel normal.
I looked at /r/conservative last night and it was not good for my mental health. Thousands of commenters all agree it was a sham trial that he will win on appeal and that this will only earn him votes.
The last two things, they may be right about and that's terrifying.
I remember when they said he'd win big in 2020. I remember when they said he wouldn't be indicted. Next it's some other silly line in the sand. They're not exactly great prognosticators.
They call it a sham but I ask, where is the proof? There is, of course, zero.
Pretty much everything the president does while in office is official. So the more important question is what is within the president's powers.
The problem with immunity rather than changing the law is that all he has to do is prove that in some circumstance he has that power and that he believes that circumstance existed at the time and he used that authority to do it.
For example, he has the power to order the military to assassinate, so the specifics of whether it was legal to assassinate a certain person can't be questioned in court, only whether he has the power to issue that type of order. Because once it's established that it is within his power and he states that he used his authority as president to issue the order, he is immune to any further prosecution. Also, it doesn't matter if he ordered the CIA to do it and they don't have that legal authority to act inside the US. In that case the president is breaking the law, he just can't be prosecuted for it, only the CIA agents involved could be. It's not presidential authority that is being violated in that case so it's off the table for prosecution regardless of how illegal it is.
“But under our system of separated powers, the President may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers, and he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for his official acts.”
He's not being prosecuted for exercising core constitutional powers or official acts. He's being prosecuted for election fraud, inciting an insurrectionist mob and mishandling classified documents. None of those are core constitutional powers and they clearly can't be official acts.
Edit: I just love this part-
Without immunity, Trump's lawyer said, sitting presidents would face "blackmail and extortion" by political rivals due to the threat of future prosecution.
Trump just faces blackmail and extortion from his political allies. Like Vladimir Putin.
They sent it back down to the lower courts because they need to determine if he was acting officially. If he was acting outside of an official constitutional capacity he is criminally responsible. If he was doing his official duties with in the constitution he's alright.
It'll probably end up with him hit with some charges and avoiding others.
That's just due process of law. The lower court can't just wax seal issues of constitutionality with out looking at them. Doing so would be a fantastic grounds for appeal.
Devil's Advocate: It's been needing to be determined since fucking Nixon left office, and our entire government has been waffling about it for 70 years, because it's a question they don't actually want answered. It's only convenient to them now as a reason to give Trump a legal time-out so he can make it to the election without more indictments.
The District Court in question has already defined official versus unofficial acts, which is part of why the SC released this so late on fucking purpose. Because even though the DC is ready to go with their findings, they'll have to wait until October to kick it back up the chain to the Supreme Court when Trump inevitably appeals.
That's the plan, yes. I think it goes a little farther than "hope" with these guys. They think they can manifest reality.
We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do'.
In some ways, you can almost see why trying to "erase" bad ideas is intoxicating, since humans seem endlessly drawn to them.
It's like in tech circles, the joke goes that some Sci-Fi writer creates a horrible invention and includes a warning "DO NOT BUILD THE TORMENT NEXUS" and that warning, repeatedly, goes ignored. People are like "but we could make good profit from the Torment Nexus!"
AI is a good example. "If we don't make the terrible AI, someone else will, so we have to make the Torment Nexus, errr, I mean AI."
But trying to stop all these bad ideas is just Fahrenheit 451 with extra steps.
I think the Soviets and the space race with the USA would prove that the "We have to build it faster, first!" isn't just a capitalist thing.
Capitalism incentivizes it, absolutely. To be clear, I'm not making some "it's human nature" argument, culture plays a huge role. Capitalist culture influences it greatly, but I think humans "racing" to achieve something before another does is outside the scope of just capitalism.
Some of the evidence that Jack Smith has put together involve some form of Trump's official capacity. for instance, the Times notes that one of the points of the prosecution was that Trump tried to get Jeffrey Clark installed as acting AG in the days before Jan 6, presumably because he would go along with the coup. One of the findings of the Court is that appointments like that are within the President's direct duties, and can't be used as evidence against him, even if it can be proven that the appointment was made to directly piss on the Constitution Trump swore to protect.
The Times also notes that Trump's pressure campaign on Pence is similarly protected now.
Because presiding over the counting of the votes is one of the very few duties the Constitution allocates to the VP, so is covered under this new doctrine. He has the absolute right to conduct that how he sees fit, without regard to whether he is upholding his oath to the Constitution or not, and any conversations he had with the President are part of that duty, and similarly protected. If it turns out he is not upholding that oath, the only remedy is impeachment. (And finding 67 Senators to agree to convict.)
because they need to determine if he was acting officially.
this was already ruled on, reelection campaign is NOT an official capacity thing PERIOD. This move is nothing but another delay to ensure this shit falls on a date post-election
Delaying until after the election was the main point yeah. He did get a couple other goodies from it though to my understanding. Presumption of immunity and not being able to admit testimony or communications of the president and his staff being the big ones from what I'm reading.
But absolutely Remand is the big prize for Trump here. Having the case remanded back to the lower courts all but guarantees that it won't be concluded before the election. Hopefully it doesn't entirely gut the other prosecutions as well but I don't have a lot of faith that it isn't going to basically kill the other cases.
As for a President’s unofficial acts, there is no immunity. Although Presidential immunity is required for official actions to ensure that the President’s decisionmaking is not distorted by the threat of future litigation stemming from those actions, that concern does not support immunity for unofficial conduct. Clinton, 520 U. S., at 694, and n. 19. The separation of powers does not bar a prosecution predicated on the President’s unofficial acts.
Right, and why do the questions "can a president officially commit election fraud" and "can a president officially incite a violent mob" and "can a president officially mishandle classified documents?" need to be determined? The answers have already been determined. They are all no.
Constitutionally defined roles have absolute immunity (e.g., pardons). Other "official acts" are presumed to have immunity, but what acts are official is not well defined and as written can be very expansive. Since the Court gets to decide each one on a case by case basis, it will presumably apply more expansively to fascist allies and more narrowly to opponents. All Trump needs to do is present a flimsy excuse for how he was "protecting the election" or "making a political speech as president". The liberal judges are correctly ringing alarm bells. "Official acts" isn't a guardrail.
That's okay, it will clearly be fake just like COVID and it will also be over in a few months like Elon predicted about COVID and you can fix it with horse paste and a UV light up your ass, so you don't need a mask or anything like the COVID vaccine that killed everyone who got it within a year, as predicted.
It depends when it launches and goes… viral (sorry..). If there’s a dem in office, it’s a real pandemic and we aren’t doing nearly enough and 10,000 people are dying every second, you lib monsters!! If it’s a repub in office it’s fake news poopvirus and why are you trampling on my poopeating freedums??
Literal last minute decision on this one. SCOTUS is definitely running interference for Trump, without a doubt.
Biden should declare Trump a national security threat and have him assassinated. That's an "official act", is it not? Sure, it helps Biden immensely, but now who is to determine where an official act ends and a private self-serving one begins? Are those two necessarily mutually exclusive?
“When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune,” Sotomayor wrote.
Yep the dems wouldn't dare try to use this ruling to their advantage and then they blame everyone else when they lose and Republicans use every ruling to their every advantage.
Disclaimer: I have no idea what the right move here is. It's a shitty situation. "How Democracies Die" talks about it in quite a bit of detail, but basically, in the unfolding collapse of a democracy, there's a terrible temptation to start eroding democratic norms "in kind" in response to their eroding from the fascist side, but this is a mistake. You have to keep fighting on the tilted table without trying to tilt it back, because eroding the norms of behavior plays right into the fascists' hands and those democratic standards are horrifyingly hard to get back once you've broken the seal.
But, that being said, keeping in mind that this is satire to make a point: I don't think Biden should have Trump assassinated, or anybody. I do think that it would be a little more directly on the nose if he, as an official act, had Seal Team 6 ambush all the justices that voted for this (as an official act of course), take them with hoods over their heads and in ziptie cuffs to an undisclosed location, and then put up on YouTube the video of someone asking them a few questions in a bare concrete room in that undisclosed location, requesting that they clarify that this is really what they meant. Sort of bring some reality to what is the door they are trying to open, on a personal level, to them. Because I am 100% serious when I say that that is 100% very literally the door they have chosen to open. Sort of a "Let's close this door back up tight, right brother? Unless you are sure you want to open it? Really, like really for real sure with no backsies?"
If only. That would be amazing and thank you for the dream, but they've all got private security, I don't see how this could be done without someone being shot, which changes the whole context and would make it something that could be spun to easily.
But it brings up the whole issue doesn't it? The court feels they will never have to deal with the consequences of any of this. Surely a trump-style president would never come after them.
This is something I think about a lot. The best way to defeat fascism is within the process with democracy -- because if we start playing by their rules to stop fascism, we prove them right in a sense. It's preferable to actually letting fascism happen, but it would severely weaken our democracy.
If voting is not enough, then the next best option would be for Biden to pull his own Jan 6 and refuse to certify the results and call in Seal Team 6. And then after doing so, order his own arrest for violating our laws and norms. The only way to preserve democracy after taking steps outside of democracy is to fall on your own sword.
It's like an alternate universe within the DC universe -- the Joker goes too far and Batman snaps his neck. When he arrives at the police, he carries the Joker's body and tells them to arrest him. Batman knew it was necessary to kill Joker, but he also knew he had to be held accountable for doing that. Any group which uses violence to end the fascist threat needs to turn themselves in afterwards to preserve peaceful democracy. It would be incredibly unfair to them, but it's necessary to prevent a new normal of violent anarchy.
SCOTUS cleverly ruled that bribery was legal before granting immunity. Otherwise, Biden could just officially order the DOJ to investigate SCOTUS for corruption.
I think they are relying on the scruples that most normal, adjusted people have to prevent him from doing just that. But from a completely outcome-based perspective, I kind of think it might be the best move to try to buy time to try to start fixing this compromised court and the damage they’re wreaking
"My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel,"
This was the moment for the the United States where we all start "ride a camel" again. "The American Republic" Apex is over.
I tell people as often as I can, especially my trans and bipoc friends; now is the time. Get a couple guns (a long one and a short one) and learn how to use them. Learn some basic first aid, you really just need to know how to stabilize someone. Start networking with like-minded people in your communities. The police will not protect us, they’ve proven they’ll happily club senior citizens to the ground and shoot any protesters in the face with rubber bullets while escorting a rightwing murderer to safety.
Iran was a secular, liberal state until almost 1980 when they (mostly legitimately) elected an Islamist theocracy; it could happen here
“When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune,” Sotomayor wrote.
I need to start looking at plane tickets and foreign visas, don't I? I don't know if I want to stick around and fight fascists in a civil war. I've got a life and a family. But I also don't want to stick around if we do nothing and let the country fall into fascism with a few feeble protests. I hate this timeline.
The sense of unease loomed over the Pride parade in Paris on Saturday, hinted at by the banner reading: “The far right is the mortal enemy of LGBTI people.”
Only if he replaces them quickly with friends, otherwise they'll decide certain acts aren't "official". This is designed so that the fascist court can whitewash fascist presidents, but opposing presidents still need to worry.
reuters.com
Active