"I profusely beg your forgiveness, old chap, but my linguistic skills do not reach to the Anglican sphere and thus I am unable to converse in anything but my native language, Mandarin."
Teaching English to non-native speakers will fully open your eyes as to how broken and outright ridiculous the English language is. "To" and "too". "Through" and "threw"....
Yeah, if humans use it long enough, any language becomes bastardized. Every generation comes up with new slang with only minor regard for the rules. Some of that slang becomes permanent.
Learning a second language AND professionally teaching English to speakers of said language. English is not broken. English is actually much better than many alternatives. We don’t need to worry about noun gender. We don’t have to worry about tones. We have precise ways to indicate number and time. Formality levels are not baked into word construction. The pronunciation of words can generally be inferred from the spelling, despite learning this skill being a little complicated— but that complicated nature even has its usefulness.
We rag on English, but it is by far not the worse out there, not even close. It’s just contempt for the familiar.
Exceptions on exceptions on exceptions, on top of grammar rules that vary based on what language the word you're using was originally from, except even then you can't know because it can be a word came to English from French even though it's originally Latin and then the way the French pronounced it carries over to the English.
As someone who's native language is Finnish and you literally know how a word is pronounced when you see it. If you know how to use the phonetic alphabet, then you basically know how to pronounce Finnish. Compare English words and their IPA to Finnish words and their IPA:
You know the fun thing about "The Chaos"? It was written by someone who had English as a second language. Most native speakers simply don't get how chaotic their language is.
It seems to me that you’re making a strange argument throwing bugs and features into the same pot. The fact that other languages have different complexities does not make one language more or less broken.
As a native German speaker, I really dislike the formality levels and hope someday everyone uses the informal level. In a big company it's really annoying to start with the formal level and then awkwardly switching to informal level when contacting someone for the first time.
Yeah it's broken, but y'all have tenses that sorta make senses (in Estonian we have present and past - future is implied by context!) and you don't need 14 noun cases because y'all have prepositions.
At the same time, English borrows words from over 9000 different languages, nothing is pronounced the way it's written, and to be quite honest, I never bothered learning any of the rules in school. The rule for ordering adjectives so they wouldn't sound off was impossible to remember, but because I've been terminally online since I was like 7, it just came naturally.
TL;DR: English is a great language to just know natively, horrifying one to learn systematically.
Learning a second language hasn't made me think English is broken. I already thought English was messed up but know a little of it's history so have a general idea why. Learning Spanish means learning the flaws of a second language.
I thinking all languages are flawed, but English just goes the extra mile.
Conversely, when we Spanish have to learn English, the thing we hate the most is that words are not pronounced the way they're written. In Spanish, however, we've got some weird rules with irregular verbs and articles, but the former is common to both languages
Learning German taught me how messed up non-English languages are. Having to memorize if every noun is either male, female, or neuter just so you can use the right form of "the" with it is crazy.
As a German myself who tried to learn French a while ago, I gave up because that language has the same issue, but the genders for nouns are different and I just can't be bothered to memorize two different genders for every noun 💀
ITT: Loads of monolingual native English speakers who has no knowledge of linguistics or even how their own language is not unique in all the ways that they think it is.
Gotten the hang of Southern Sotho at this point, and one thing that strikes me is how exact I can be with English and how I've always taken for granted how much access we have to things that allow us to give our words different meanings and implications. It just doesn't exist to that extent in many other languages. It's like when you hear the Eskimos have 50 words for snow or whatever. I don't know if it's true or not, but those words would describe different states or types of snow that speakers of that language recognize as distinct.
Are you sure this is not just your perception depending on fluency in a language? Your native will always feel more comprehensive than any second language.
A while ago, my dad (native german, fluent english) said something similar to me, that he believes german has so many more words to describe and to give different meaning to the things we say. I do disagree with that too. Now I always have to think about this, when coming across something I have more means to express something in english or german. And there are many examples in both languages.
Even if you are fluent in a second language, you probably always have more words and more nuance in your native language.
Great point! I considered that when I started learning and have spoken to it with my colleagues here who are also learning the language as well as Basotho- native speakers. Basotho who speak English fluently mostly agree that English has a broader vocabulary.
I've observed that Sesotho relies on tone and emphasis on parts of words more than English. There isn't a whole lot of writing in Sesotho so I can imagine that the language hasn't needed to develop ways to be descriptive that couldn't be delivered with one's voice.
Moreover, when I speak with Basotho that aren't very proficient in English, I notice they very freely use words that a native English speaker would consider extreme, such as "perfect," for mundane things because there is no explicit difference in Sesotho between "perfect" and merely "very good."
The video I linked gets into it a bit that English is helped by being an amalgamation of several languages, and thus inherits multiple ways of describing a concept.
For native speakers, there is also the level of education and the contexts they use it in that can influence their vocabulary. I know a lot of Spanish speakers, both heritage speakers and those who grew up in Spanish a speaking countries. Heritage speakers often are educated in English and mostly use Spanish at home and in social situations, but are more comfortable in English for other topics. Lots of my coworkers who grew up in Spanish speaking countries have pretty limited formal education. In either case, they often don't know the Spanish terms for technical, scientific or political contexts, and will just use the English word, even in Spanish.
This doesn't mean that English has a richer political or technical vocabulary than Spanish, but it does create a chicken and egg situation in certain contexts. Why bother to learn and use the Spanish term if the English term is already more widely known, especially if it isn't a topic that would lend itself to popular publications and discussions outside of industrial or academic contexts? Even in Spanish speaking countries, the increasing dominance of English internationally can result in highly educated people in these countries being pressured to publish in English, further reducing the number of occasions one might have to use these terms in Spanish.
I don't feel it's particularly broken honestly. Some languages are more consistent with their rules and therefore easier to learn but English is surprisingly consistent in practice/sound throughout the world. You also don't need to memorize the gender of a washing machine...
There are five (5) ways of pronouncing oo, if you people haven't added a sixth one since the last time I looked.
Radii, fiancé, and façade are apparently perfectly cromulent English words that native English speakers who've never seen an ii, an é, or a ç are supposed to be able to pronounce correctly...
Your words for food animals come from completely different and unrelated languages depending on whether the animal is alive or dead (since the people who tended to the farms and the people who actually ate their meat spoke different languages)...
There are probably more irregular verbs than regular ones... (again, probably because of English really being three different languages in a trenchcoat)...
At some point in the sixteenth century you apparently just up and decided to randomly switch the pronunciation of all your vowels... without changing how you wrote them...
While most languages have developed some form of standard and regulative body, English seems like it'd rather leave the whole grammar, orthography, pronunciation, and whatnot situation as an exercise for the victimspeaker, writer, or reader...
I honestly wasn't aware naïve had a dieresis in English.
I mean, it makes complete sense for it to have one in languages that use them, but I wasn't aware it was a loanword (from French or Normand, I assume).
That's a good thing. Vowels are enormous in the range of ways they can be pronounced. Any vowel can become any other vowel before it's done being pronounced, and then you can chain that effect. You can tell where people are from by their vowels. Vowels convey analog information whereas consonants convey digital. Vowels therefore have bandwidth to carry extra information. And so not only do we have lots of vowel pair sequences with their own rules for pronunciation, we have tons of rules for how surrounding consonants change those vowels. And then finally we have all sorts of cultural understandings about how altered vowels indicate mood and intent.
It's good we don't try to pretend there are only a handful of vowels.
Nah, man. That's the abused justifying the abuser. That's pure Stockholm syndrome.
There's no world in which the oos in moon, book, door, blood, brooch, and cooperation (I had forgotten about this one. There are six. SIX! 😩) representing SIX different sounds is a good thing. There simply isn't.
A sane language would replace some of those with u, ø, ō, ô, ö, õ, whatever, make some rule so that the poor sod attempting to decipher the written word could begin to know how to pronounce it... but not English. Not English. 😞
For what it's worth, you don't memorize the gender of things. It's just difficult, when you learn another language that does it differently. And that's true for every language you learn, the difficulty lies in how it's different of your own.
I mean, you do memorise them, you just don't realise you're doing it because you're a baby or toddler and babies and toddlers are language sponges, and not very aware of how their own minds work.
When learning a gendered language as an adult you definitely have no option but to memorise what gender each word uses, since there's generally no specific rule, just how the language happened to evolve. (And this can be particularly hard if your native language is gendered, but you're trying to learn one that genders words differently, for instance when learning German coming from a Romance language, or vice versa.)
No, you don't memorize it. You memorize the words and how they sound, then based on how their endings sound, you know their gender. You don't have to maintain a dictionary of words to their gender. There are a few exceptions and you memorize those, but for the most part all you need to memorize is a few rules.
Not really. In case you’re not catching the implication, it means there is no more memorization of words’ gender in Spanish than there is in English, for instance.
You simply do not need to memorize gender as it can and is derived on the spot from other memorized info, ie the word itself.
Except many languages' vocabularies share common roots (e.g. Latin and Greek) even if the languages themselves don't, so quite often someone learning Spanish will be able to make an educated attempt at figuring out the equivalent Spanish word (for instance, an English speaker might figure out that machine ≈ máquin_)... but will have no clue about the gender, having a 50% chance of ending up with, say, máquino.
And, as I said, misgendering words seems to be a relatively common mistake for people learning Spanish without having a Romance language base.
You don't really need to memorize the gender in Spanish either. The gender is signaled by the word ending. It's a maquina; that's a feminine noun. As you're speaking you can see "maquina" coming up and arrange for the gender without having to memorize the word's gender.
Someone learning Spanish as a second language will have to remember that it's máquina and not máquino when speaking or writing it, though (and will then probably be quite confused if they ever meet some guy nicknamed El Máquina, which would somehow be a perfectly cromulent nickname in Spanish).
Confusing genders when speaking or writing is one of the most common mistakes amongst people new to the language, because while everything else has some form of rule, this doesn't (sure, when reading or listening you can most of the time use the word ending, and you'll probably have an article, too, but when you are the one speaking or writing you have no option but to just know a word's gender, or how it ends, which is the same thing).