As an outsider, I feel that the Democrats would have an easier time turning third parties over if they didn't push a dementia patient who could lose the last of his competency next term.
Yep, not denying that, and the solution is just for the Democrats to just not be a worse option that third parties. Democrats are not entitled to votes becuase they're just better than the other bad option.
I mean in an ideal democracy voting for the party you actually like wouldn't just lead to the party you hate the most getting more power.
I mean in an ideal democracy voting for the party you actually like wouldn’t just lead to the party you hate the most getting more power.
But we're in this democracy, in which the left of Hitler party has to carry the national vote by basically over 50% to get over the system rigged against it electing candidates (i.e. the electoral college).
Everyone's quick to hate on Democrats gaming the system, but the party actually gaming the system needs a lot less votes in order to "win" an election.
I understand moaning about the situation, but doing anything but voting Biden for president in our system is unambiguously helping Trump win.
I just think we should hold our political representatives to a higher standard. Trump got in, for a number of cultural reasons I'm told, but a significant contributing factor was because Democrats pushed Hillary Clinton super hard under the assumption that they'd win anyway, and ended up alienating much of the left who didn't like Hillary who, shockingly, didn't vote for her.
Biden's stance on Israel has likely alienated much of the voter base who has ties to Palestine or at the least are sympathetic to their struggle. I don't like seeing patterns of loss in the party that's supposed to be the good guys in the two honestly pretty bad parties.
Trump got into office in 2016 because no matter what Republican was put up there it was pretty likely that they'd be elected.
If we're going to hold our political representatives to a higher standard, why don't we start with the party nominating people who attempted to overthrow the government for president?
Why is it always that every couple of election cycles we have this hand wringing bullshit that helps Republicans get back into the white house?
I genuinely don't understand the "leftists" in this country who vanish every four or eight years, and then get engaged in the political process again after four or eight years of a Republican predictably not giving a single shit about any of their thoughts at all. I get not wanting to endorse US involvement in Gaza, but the only viable alternative will pay no mind to not only mowing down civilians in Gaza, but his political opposition here in the US as well.
Outside of all of the political issues of the day, the vanishing left who is unreliable at voting has done a number on climate change policy over the decades which they seem to pretend matters only every second or third election cycle.
Republican voters reliably hold their nose and vote to the point where they keep white house control even with the worst possible walking obscenities as candidates. But God forbid a leftist take twenty minutes out of their day and vote for someone who isn't 100% aligned with their politics.
The right wing plays the long game while the left wing pisses and moans about politicians being politicians and doesn't reliably show up to vote, and in the end we all lose.
Man, if only there was some kind of like, party representative, whose job is to be the face of the party and their policies in order to motivate people to vote for that party. Oh well, might as well cry about Trump a million times over instead of thinking about how the party could improve it's own odds of getting elected.
I'm used to the left in this country being a bunch of ineffectual whiny losers awaiting their pie in the sky candidate while some vile Republican monstrosity wins a term in the oval office by promising to fart on every Mexican puppy or whatever.
Yeah I voted for a better one when they had an actual primary in 2020. It turns out that primary is over.
All the "leftists" must've sat that one out (as they often do because they're whiny babies that don't reliably participate in the political process yet want all of their dreams to come true), because they always tell me that we're an overwhelmingly progressive country yet they lost to Biden. 🤷
...Democrats would have an easier time turning third parties over if they didn't push a dementia patient...
Silence7 pointed out that Biden's State of the Union showed that the 3 years older man had a lot more virility than Trump showed in his Criminal trial.
So, your point of Biden being an old geezer that couldn't keep his eyes open, let alone actually articulate himself, is at odds with the facts here, and Silence7 is pointing this truth out to ... well, not you, who I suspect has a closed mind who benefits from leftie voters being peeled off from Joe Biden, but at least to people who read you and think the 81 year old is too damn old and let this stupid ear-worm get into their head. Sorry it doesn't serve your purposes to have people pointing out to you that the dementia patient is the OTHER guy in this election and Biden is spry for being 81 years old, but them's the facts, and you go to debates with the facts you have, not the ones you wish you had. ;)
Yeah if America was just honest about the political douloploly then merely being better than the worst option would be a valid strategy.
Unfortunately these pesky third parties seem to provide a better option to part of voterbase, and sadly the poor Democrats still have to compete with them too instead of just settling on being the least mediocre. So sad, so evil.
Polls are wildly conflicting. A recent Rasmussen survey found that Biden trails Trump regardless of third-party candidates.
In a two-way contest between Biden and Trump, 49% of likely US voters said they would choose Trump, and 41% would vote for Biden. That was a marginal increase for Trump since February, when he led by six points.
Looks like they are still using landlines as part of their method:
To reach those who have abandoned traditional landline telephones, Rasmussen Reports uses an online survey tool to interview randomly selected participants from a demographically diverse panel.
They claim to offset this with various corrections, but it seems landlines are the only numbers they call.
It amazes me how many people seem to forget how much the polls played in Trump's victory. The media practically encouraged people it 2ould be such a landslide for Hillary that people didn't bother to vote. Trump has never won an election. The fucking retards running the DNC keep losing elections by their own incompetence. I feel like we keep living out the episode of Avenue 5 where the actor playing the captain in a TV sitcom wins the fucking election. We haven't had a deserving president since Obama and in THIS election I would vote for Baldwin's SNL Trump over either of the geriatric fucks who are actually running.
The first Trump criminal trial starts tomorrow. Trump's fundraising is being crushed by Biden. RNC is hurting for cash and what is there is being gobbled up by Trump's lawyers. Down ballot candidates will have zero assistance.
Republicans are facing the most devastating defeat in their history. Polling has been garbage for two election cycles. Just look at the writing on the wall. Trump is running on fumes and it's only going to get worse.
If the Republic plunges into a dark age, for example because democracy ended, and you stayed home when your contribution could have prevented it, you're still sharing in the blame. No amount of smug self-righteousness will wind back the clock. You already have one previous devastating administration and an insurrection worth of warning.
Imagine describing not supporting genocide as "smug"...
We're in this predicament directly due to 40 years of neoliberal strategy. There's no one to blame but people who continue to reward "less evil" dems with power.
Do you want to keep the Republic, or not?
Corporates Dems are Republicans. When are you guys going to grasp this?
The genocide argument is a really bad one. Yes the Biden administration is culpable. The Trump administration would pump more money into it and start parading around the genocide like it's a good thing.
There's voting for the side who might get tired of the public opposition and stop funding that shit, or letting the genocidal wannabe dictator win.
You're thinking in terms of a single election cycle. That's why neoliberals are able to keep doing this every single election, how they get you to accept genocide.
Okay, so we punish the Democrats and the Republicans necessarily win as a result. Hopefully that's not a controversial assumption.
How many such intentional losses should be planned on so that we can get the Democrats try to move left to recapture support? How are we going to ensure they try to better court the left instead of moving to the right?
I'm always so confused by this argument because "punishing the Democrats by letting Republicans win"...wouldn't the assumption just be that the people WANT a more right wing government?
Wouldn't that simply encourage politicians to be like "Oh, the crazies won last time. Maybe that's who our voting block is now. Maybe it's time to also be crazy."
You're asking me how much Dems have to lose in order to understand why they're losing and to stop playing chicken with our democracy?
How would I know that? You would hope one lost election to a reality TV star rapist would be enough to prompt a post-mortem, but the idiots learned nothing from 2016 so I would imagine it might take a while for it to sink into their thick skulls. How long does it take someone to add 2+2?
I'm not asking you to read minds. Just to explain how this works in your mind. I understand the frustration, and desire to express it, and the expression I'm, possibly incorrectly, assuming you have is to not vote for them. What is the process by which this accomplishes more than making Republicans win elections, and pushing the Democrats to the right?
What makes you assume the Dems would move to the right? Where do you think they would get votes from?
As much as the democratic establishment likes to pretend there's some untapped well of "moderate" republicans they can access if they just get their messaging right, it doesn't exist. Anyone who thinks GOP voters are going to vote democrat is deluded, Trump is going on criminal trial and is still loved by Republicans.
Even the exit polling for Democrats' "tricky" Nikki Haley scheme in New Hampshire showed that most of the right-wing voters who despise Trump still wouldn't ever vote democrat, they're just staying home.
They can move further to the right if they want, but Democrats are barely able to scrape enough votes together to beat Donald Trump of all people, let alone compete with the GOP on their own turf. Meanwhile they refuse to acknowledge that their base is now increasingly Millenials and Gen-Z.
There's a reason Obama won in a landslide before everyone realized he was full of shit, and it wasn't because he signaled leaning to the right. It was because he convincingly pantomimed as a progressive promising "change". Those same voters he fooled are now grown up and more saavy, they understand that money tells the truth. They're much harder to fool.
Dems realize that they cannot pull the same old tricks but actually have to reform in order to get those base voters back. They understand it, they just don't want to because it means an inevitable end to the corporate gravy train. So they paint their own base as "extremists" and concoct these crazy schemes to prop up right-wing nutjobs as their competition so their corporate candidates look better, but it's simply not working. They've brought us to the brink of fascism and it's not working unless you make it work for them.
Okay, fair. I asked that in that way because I believe that politicians listen primarily to corporations, sure, and secondarily to reliable voting blocs. My thought was that by proving to be an unreliable voting bloc, there's a reasonable risk that instead of trying to court that bloc to make it turn out more, they would just go after other blocs that already are reliable.
But! You don't think the democrats would try to court the right instead of the left if the left proves to be an unreliable voter bloc. Fair! What about the rest? We punish them via withholding of votes, they lose, and then... by what mechanism are they pushed to the left? By the loss, or is there more to the idea? What if they don't, or don't do it good enough? Withhold votes and make them lose again? Is there ever an adjustment to the plan, or is it just an unfortunate helping of our ideological opponents for however long it takes for the Democrats to get it right?
The mechanism by which you make it clear and demonstrate reliability as a voter is, in part, by still by voting. The Uncommitted vote is a good example of how you make a message very clear, but that uncommitted vote means nothing if those people then cave in November and vote for Biden despite him basically giving them the finger in response to their uncommitted votes. Any political analyst with half a brain would understand why Biden lost in that scenario.
So finding and using any means by which to send the message and then being willing to back that message up with action is how it functions.
I see. I appreciate your taking the time to explain your point of view. Still not my preferred method of engagement, but I understand better where you were coming from, and that's what I was trying to accomplish!
Okay, so when the election happens, vote to keep the fascists out of power, and every other day the 4 years in between do something to push politics in the direction you want it to go.
No I'm thinking in terms of we cannot revive the dead so let's not put the genocidal wannabe dictator in power for 4 years. I clearly can't stop what's currently happening but I'm sure as hell not going to vote in a way that results in more people dying more quickly.
You mistake accepting genocide with trying to prevent a worse genocide.
The fact that this is even on the table is why I'm upset. A sane government would not let that sort of thing happen. But we have a majority of the Supreme Court nominated by two presidents who lost the popular vote because a bunch of slave owners over 200 years ago were butthurt at the idea that the popular vote for president wouldn't go their way.
The Electoral College was also established to aid in guiding uninformed voters. It was logical to implement it for presidential elections, since most people wouldn’t have heard about the policy or platform of either candidate.
Exactly. Our government is like we took an 18th century sailing ship, bolted on a steam engine, piled it full of people, and then strapped on some wings so it could fly to the moon.
The structure of our government is so anachronistic I don't know why people are upset it's working so horribly.
There are instructions, but those instructions were also modified at the behest of slave owners who wanted an outsized influence. So we can't update it without risking something even worse.
What should have been added was the requirement that it be updated every 20 years.
So I guess it comes down to which one will do the least harm to what you feel is the right thing. Both have had a term as president so we have a pretty good idea on how exactly they'll act in their second one.
All of the above appears to be true. Trump is being slammed both in court and out, and Trump's fundraising is going to his legal bills while Biden's getting more money and needing to spend it on fewer things. The early polls were scary, for sure, but Bidens numbers are improving, possibly because we're getting more real pollsters in the polling, possibly because less invested people are tuning into the election and realising that as much as the past 4 years sucked, Trump's handling of COVID and his approach to governing are much worse.
Still. We need to be careful with 'we've got this in the bag' thinking. We don't call TFG 'Teflon Don' for nothing. That guy's got more lives than a cat, and is wileyer than a fox. And you know what he's going to do based on what he's accusing other people of doing. We have got to turn out in exceptional numbers and UTTERLY CRUSH TRUMP at the poll box. Even then, we may need to brush up on our self-defence skills because I wouldn't put it past Trump and his backers to actually start an honest-to-goodness coup complete with guns and armies if he loses it. I'm not going to rest until Biden is reinaugurated in 2025...
I agree 100%. But also I think that a politics board on Lemmy is mostly going to be populated with folks who don't need to be told to vote no matter what. Local races are still important. And as you point out, winning by the biggest margin possible is important so even if polling has Biden with a 20 point margin, we've got to turn out and push it even higher. Plus local races are honestly more important to folks' day to day than who is President.
So absolutely everyone vote, but that message will be more important as the election gets closer and mostly in places that aren't full of politics nerds.
Biden poses a danger to Biden. He's done nothing just like all prior democrats, to earn our vote. That sane hubris cost Hills an election that was hers to lose.
What you smoking bro? There are extremely valid criticisms of Biden but "done nothing"? What kind of bubble do you live in that you're so utterly ignorant.
Until that day, let’s hope people recognize that there really are only two votes that will end up counting. I still regret voting for Nader when Bush stole the election in 2000.
Democrats aren’t taking advantage, republicans are. Why do you think independent candidates are funded primarily by GOP PACs but use moderate platforms? They know anyone educated enough to find value in a moderate candidate would never have voted for Trump.
They are taking advantage of the situation by ignoring voters telling him to stop genocide. They believe they can do whatever they want and voters will still reward him with another opportunity to keep doing it.
The US has always been too easy on Israel. I agree that Biden needs to stand firm on his recent insistence of diplomacy after the attack, and take action if Netanyahu doesn’t agree to follow.
Yes, they absolutely are. It's why they're supporting the genocide every last centrist has always wanted. They can get away with it because the other option is worse.
We can acknowledge that Trump is a fascist and people need to vote for Biden or there is a real possibility of not being able to vote again.
We can also acknowledge that as a result Democrats don't have to try very hard and can present a boring "mostly status quo" candidate under the banner of "what are you going to do, let a fascist win?"
Yes, it sucks. We can acknowledge it sucks. Personally I think the best way to correct course is if the Republicans lose hard to send the message that they need to be putting forward reasonable candidates to stand a chance, at which point it would be reasonable to not vote for disappointing Democratic candidates.
We can still acknowledge that what is being offered isn't stellar.
I agree that he’s not stellar. So do the polls. My point is that third-party candidates aren’t spoiling the republican nomination, even though they’re funded by republicans. They’re running specifically to pull anti-Trump votes from Biden, and have a real effect on the potential for a second term for Trump.
I agree, the point OP was making is that Biden and the Democrats are taking advantage of Trump being the nominee by not trying very hard because "who else are you going to vote for?"
I follow. Biden knows he’s polling way too low to be strong-arming the vote. That’s not what is influencing his lack of action regarding Netanyahu. This is how the US have handled the Iran-Israel proxy conflict since the 80’s. I do not think it’s right either. I do know that republicans have wanted an active Iranian war for decades though. That’s why the House is stalling the Ukraine/Israel support bill that’s already passed the Senate in favor of the new Israel aid bill currently being drafted.
What you wrote is a simplification and it's also wrong in general. For people who don't live in swing states, one vote more or less isn't going to change the election. This is especially true if you're in an obvious minority in your own state.
Also, the two established parties realize that people think what you think, and that gives them an excuse not to represent their base. The term used back in Bill Clinton's days was "triangulation". One of the ways of keeping presidential candidates honest is to vote for third parties if necessary.
Finally, it's important to keep in mind that the stance you have here is something that many of us have heard for decades.
And it's all still true, as long as we have a voting system that is essentially actively detrimental to yourself if you try to express anything other than R or D on the voting ballot.
Most countries with presidential systems have two-round voting which is effectively very close to ranked choice voting. That’s why e.g. Macron’s new party could immediately win the presidency.
I know it's a flawed system but how else would you ensure everyone of our 300 million citizens are properly represented? I also recognize the preverse exploitation the EC allows but without it you would have every state voting whichever candidate the lagest Metropolitan region votes. The only presidential election that NY state ever voted republican for was the a
Regan landslide which wasn't even a testament to the victor. It was a result of the challenging candidate not winning a single fucking district other than his own and the district for his home town iirc.
Yes a lot can be said for the benefits of not having current Republicans in office but this country never stays still very long and there is no way of knowing 10-20 years from now that the democrats won't evolve into a super toxic party. Which without the EC would bind us to the scenario I explained above where we would have no escape.
It is really nice knowing that I can safely vote for our "green" party without risking our conservative party getting in because the centre-left party loses too many votes.
Also, voting being mandatory (and very accessible) and on a Sunday for federal elections is such a game changer for ensuring participation.
Hopefully you guys can get reforms in at some point.
Low voter turnout benefits the Republican Party in the US because conservatives are more consistent voters. Reform requires 60 votes in the Senate out of 100. That makes it almost impossible because one of the major parties is not interested in reform.
Sure, but that is not the same as allowing another parties to take their votes that do turn out.
Just look around here on lemmy, the democrats are milking the "we are the only alternative to hate and bigotry" for everything it is worth. I expect they would not even keep half their voters if a better alternative to voting republican existed.
aaaand we both get downvoted for implying this is gonna hurt his reelection. People are in fucking denial about the damage this is doing to him. He's gonna drive a bunch of people to third party but, of course, never enough for this to become a 3 party country and what does that do? Put trump back in the fucking white house.
Therein lies the problem with trying to help both sides. Pro Israel people say Biden isn't doing enough for Israel. Pro Palestine folks say Biden isn't doing enough for Gaza. Netanyahu has a violent mind that Biden can't control. Hamas is beyond Biden's control. People on both side want to punish Biden for not being on their side. So do we elect a dictator who will maintain favorability by pushing dissenters out of helicopters at 30,000 feet?
Pro Israel people say Biden isn’t doing enough for Israel.
These people are trash and, at the end of the day, would probably not be voting for Biden in the first place.
Pro Palestine folks say Biden isn’t doing enough for Gaza.
He's literally suppling the weapons to power this genocide.
Netanyahu has a violent mind that Biden can’t control.
Remember recently those parents that faced charges after a school shooting because they knew he was fucked in the head and bought him a gun anyways? Thats like defending the parents. He cant control him but STOP GIVING HIM FUCKING GUNS
So do we elect a dictator who will maintain favorability by pushing dissenters out of helicopters at 30,000 feet?
Your weird ass extreme at the end is pointless. Nobody was talking about this. I am just pointing out he is really fucking hurting himself with his whole 'pro genocide' act with this shit and at the end of the day it might be the shit that splits the vote badly enough that we end up with Trump again.
Really? The 3rd party candidates are all receiving funds from the GOP? You super sure about that or did you blatantly lie knowing only Kennedy received any funding from the GOP.
I feel like this is fruitless to explain if you could draw this conclusion for yourself. None of the 3rd party candidates are running to get anyone but themselves elected. Noone is going to risk the cost and exposure for ANY campaign unless they think they can win. If there is doubt, political strategy 101 is to just lay low and move focus to the next election.
All the GOP is following is another 101 tiered strategy: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There wouldn't be a single suit in DC who would support anyone in either the GOP or DNC if they morally chose not to give donations to parties drawing voters away from the competition.
"They know anyone educated enough to seek out a moderate candidate wouldn’t have voted for Trump in the first place."
Whew, that's got to be the hottest take I've ever heard. Hahaha. So by this logic, all the intelligent undecides will be too smart to vote for Trump so they are going to support... someone who thinks chemicals in the water make you feel like a woman but grow a dick at the same time? Isn't that Kennedy's thing? Chemicals in the water are creating more transgenders?
You do realize Trump left office with 39% polling that they thought life would improve under another 4 years of Trump. As of this article, the same question polled with 42% supporting Trump now. Those additional 3% of support, sure as shit didnt come from devout liberals, right? They prolly more than likely had a chance of coming from the undecideds.
Either way, I'm not picking on you. You do you boo. I would just recommend not making arguments with 2 out of 3 paragraphs containing wildly incorrect information. People might think you're an idiot.🍻
The link in the comment you responded to quotes Trump suggesting that Israel should take out everyone in Gaza, just don’t record it. Netanyahu named a village after Trump. Don’t be blind to Trump’s agenda.
Trump wears his stupidity on his sleeve. Biden continues to lie thru his teeth that he is not supporting and funding a genocide. I'd rather know someone is an idiot than someone who is convinced they are not while murdering an entire civilization.
Yes. As i already stated, I am more "cool" with someone who says they are going to commit war crimes than someone who is denying that they are actively committing war crimes while they actively supporting and funding a genocide.
Multiple new polls show Joe Biden strengthening slightly in the US presidential election, but suggest third-party candidates could present a risk to his chance of carrying the White House in November.
Asked a follow-up question that added the independent candidates Robert F Kennedy Jr, an environmental lawyer and vaccine sceptic, the Harvard professor Cornel West, and the Green party figure Jill Stein, Biden took the greater hit to his support, leveling with Trump at 38%.
“This is not surprising, given that RFK Jr is on most issues a traditional progressive leftist, which makes him indistinguishable from the current leadership of the Democratic party,” Jones wrote.
According to the Kennedy campaign, the candidate and vice-presidential pick Nicole Shanahan currently have enough signatures to get on the ballots of just six states: Hawaii, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina and New Hampshire.
Earlier this month, third-party group No Labels announced it would not field a “unity ticket” candidate after reaching out to 30 potential people and raising $60m despite assessing that “Americans remain more open to an independent presidential run and hungrier for unifying national leadership than ever before”.
Kennedy, who has consistently denied his candidacy is in effect a “spoiler” to Democratic hopes of retaining the White House, is not the only worry for the party currently holding executive power.
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