As heat pumps proliferate so does #misinformation about them.
"#HeatPumps are a mature technology and in countries such as Norway, Sweden and Finland, they are the dominant heating technology. For the first time in 2022, heat pumps outsold gas boilers in the US – and they continued to do so in 2023.
Yet, in major economies such as the UK and Germany, heat pumps are the subject of hostile and misleading reporting across many mainstream media outlets."
"Claims that the majority of the UK’s housing stock is not suitable for a heat pump appear to be [lies].
Research published in 2022 found that properties including Victorian terrace houses and 1960s flats could have a heat pump successfully installed.
A 2021 study found: “Homes can convert to electric heating at a cost far lower than the accepted wisdom” and “with no threat to comfort”. Additionally, greenhouse gas emissions would “fall very dramatically as a result”."
"Not only do #HeatPumps work fine in #ColdWeather, they’re still more efficient than gas furnaces in such conditions."
"At a punishing –30 degrees C (–22 degrees F), a Mitsubishi model produced COPs (coefficient of performance) between 1.5 and 2, and a Toshiba model between 1 and 1.5."
@justafrog@CelloMomOnCars
I'm not at all disputing that heat pumps can work in frigid climates, but I do wonder how much wood Norwegians burn along with their heat pumps and isn't that where Passiv Haus building practices developed too.
Regardless though, we install resistance heating element backup systems when we switch over from fossil fuels to electric heating systems anyways so there's no reason to fall for their misinformation.
@justafrog@GreenFire@CelloMomOnCars@DamonHD
It's clear from practical experience that appropriately installed heat pumps can work just fine in climates like the UK's and Germany's.
However, the argument that they work in northern Norway is not a good one to support that. The problem in milder climates is that the air is a lot wetter and so there's more problem with icing on the coils which does reduce the efficiency.
AFAICS, and I haven't looked into this too much, the problems with heat pumps in the UK are:
Price gouging by installers,
Poorly specified and designed systems,
Relatively high cost of electricity vs direct fossil fuel (gas or oil) burning
so people spend a lot of capital and do a lot of fiddling about with their HPs to pretty-much break even on running costs with only the virtuous feeling of emitting less CO₂ to show for it.
These are all problems which can and should be fixed but just saying HPs work in Norway doesn't help.
@justafrog@CelloMomOnCars I'm in Northern Sweden, we regularly get -30C in winter, some days around -35 and heat pumps are very popular here. I'm getting two installed this week to replace a defunkt one
@CelloMomOnCars I agree! We’ve had our heat pump for 5 years and it has performed perfectly through all weather, hot or freezing. We live in the mountains and get several weeks of snow most winters. Our house stays pretty consistently at the temps we set. Sure, a 06 F temp day can be a little chilly in the house, but there is no heating system we’ve ever had (and we’ve had them all) where a cold snap didn’t require turning up the thermostat to take the edge off. Our HP saves us money too!
That's so awesome.
People who have heat pumps need to. have house tours for friends and neighbours: nothing like standing in front of a unit enjoying the quiet operation and the gentle air flow to convince you that you could stand to have one in your own house!
@CelloMomOnCars When and where in UK have -30°C even measured in winter? The record low temperatures in Scotland go no deeper than -27°C. Greater London had -16°C.
Heat pumps work great in Scandinavia, a miracle also for the German public, who's told by the criminally lying corrupt press that heat pumps don't work in Germany.
@CelloMomOnCars
The goal ought to be 90% of UK houses having heat pumps, and solar panels, and batteries.
And subsidies and streamlined bureaucracy put in place to make it happen in under 10 years.
So obvious really.
The real levelling up.
@YimbyEarth@CelloMomOnCars Not a hope of it happening. We can't physically train enough heat pump engineers to do the work in the time. Subsidies exist, kit exists although it's debatable that can ramp up production rates fast enough. Outside of the mess around conservation zones and listed buildings the paperwork isn't that bad either. Conservation zones need the climate putting before stupid council "no solar" rules and twee leaky windows. Listed is harder - but it's a corner case.
@etchedpixels@YimbyEarth@CelloMomOnCars Are you sure about that? My heat pump was recently serviced by somebody who mostly does boilers. While generally the safest assumption is that if I don't understand something it's hard, is it really that different to gas systems? Unless it's a split unit, you don't need an F-gas connectors certificate, for instance.
The other big problem is cost. Given the need to overhaul the whole heating system at the same time, the subsidy of £7,500 isn't enough for most installs. Costs will come down - but mainly for the heat pump itself, which was only £6K or so out of a total of £15K. So they won't come down fast enough.
The requirement for us to have some chance of meeting 2C, let alone 1.5C, is that we move as fast as possible. We could certainly move much faster on heat pumps than is the case today; many other countries (often colder countries!) have much higher install rates.
@matthewtoad43@YimbyEarth@CelloMomOnCars Big problem is lack of self install options. In the US it scales easily because anyone with a bit of a clue and a friend can install window air/air systems. Likewise Germany and balcony solar shows the same thing.
I am not sure the UK obsession with heating only systems glued to old radiators is going to prove sensible either - it's expensive and will lead to extra aircon being added on top as temperatures go nuts.
Even if we only have a 2022 scale heat wave every 5 years, it's a serious threat when it does happen.
I just hope that people who install AC will also install solar panels. Otherwise there's a risk of both increasing emissions and grid failures when electricity is needed most.
However, not having AC means I'm not going to turn it on. And if it was just me, that would be a good thing. Experts almost always say AC isn't needed in the UK. Well, it wouldn't be, if we were allowed to have external shutters, if we had housing with sensible passive cooling features... And if I didn't live with somewhat vulnerable adults. So like many people, the next time there's a chance of a serious heatwave, I'll get one small portable unit, and a window kit.
Nonetheless, in terms of signalling, I don't want to see more AC.
Also, I doubt that ducting for a central AC would have been cheaper than replacing radiators. And it certainly wouldn't have been less disruptive.
Whereas per-room you have to worry about strict noise roles.
I think separate air-air units for each room is a lot less efficient overall than a whole-house system, and if you get one for each room the total cost is also a lot higher than doing it for the whole house.
In the latter case, the plumbing required is probably not for every home owner, and you really want to avoid that refrigerant leaking as it tend to have very high global warming potential.
@CelloMomOnCars@YimbyEarth ask and you shall receive! Priority on domestic is insulation, which is understandable, simpler and immediate impact on bills and emissions
@CelloMomOnCars
The lesson from Sweden is that a single air to air heat pump can heat any home with a floor plan that allows the air to circulate. Existing radiators can be turned off and used as extra heating during the coldest days.
@violanders@CelloMomOnCars Planning to do exactly this shorter term for this big victorian pile with a high efficiency but portable unit. If the maths is right it'll cover us completely for the warmer days and be cheaper than the gas boiler on sunny ones too.
Has to be portable in our case because the building is historic so portable is outside of any planning rules but the moment we want to make permanent changes for stuff like big heatpump fans there are lots of checks and rules.
@CelloMomOnCars@violanders One that can be moved around (eg on wheels). From a listed building perspective one that doesn't involve modifying the building is the main aspect of it.
In the UK they range from some really awful and inefficient single hose systems to proper units that work like a window unit but instead of being window mounted have inlet and outlet hoses through a plastic block sat in the window. The latter are alas hard to get so a lot of inefficient stuff is getting used.
@CelloMomOnCars Anecdotally, our 1890-built Victorian terrace (with solid walls, so hard to insulate) has a heat pump.
A small number of properties can't realistically have a heat pump, usually because they are flats and are too close to the next flat for noise rules. Even then there may be options, see the first post.
But the typical answer to that is district heat networks using a central ground source heat pump. Or a shared ground loop.
@CelloMomOnCars had two inspections for heat pump installations in our pre-1860 stone cottage. No problem with the heat pump per se and no problem with the already sizeable radiators: main issue is the contractors want to completely replace the microbore pipe work .
Means ripping out the floor and bathrooms. In total we're looking at about 4x the cost of a replacement oil boiler to get a heat pump. We'll probably bite the bullet and do some version of replacement, but it's a huge disincentive
@CelloMomOnCars Hi from Finland, I love my heat pump. We had it installed to cool the home in the summer, but got a dual-function just in case. It serves as an excellent back up heater when the housing community's geothermal system is offline for any reason.
That looks really great!
I'm planning to collect data like that on our house.
We did get a lot more insulation in the attic and that helped a great deal; is how I was confident to get a smaller heat pump than recommended for a house the size of ours.
@CelloMomOnCars the objection to heat pumps is simple, if we can heat our houses without gas, we can stop using fossil fuels for homes, and with solar/wind etc replacing gas fired power stations how do the fossil fuel industry reclaim all that invested money in bringing gas to your homes?
@Thebratdragon@CelloMomOnCars The fossil fuel people have the easy end (unless they get sued to oblivion as we can hope). The more immediate problem is the gas supply grid is a giant incredibly expensive machine whose cost is divided by the number of users. As people leave the gas grid the price per user will rise, forcing people to leave, and there is a vicious circle unless you shut it down by area with long term planning - something nobody in the UK is prepared to even discuss.
@etchedpixels@CelloMomOnCars ahhhh but the easy end, have a thing to keep selling you, every month. So anything that damages that from Infrastructure (what you are mentioning) down is blocked if it lowers their profits.
This is why in the Netherlands cities shut off the gas valves by neighbourhood: to avoid keeping it flowing for one or two customers.
There are subsidies to convert. I'm not sure they're enough for the not-so-wealthy households. But hey, the country already spends 2 billion euros a year on keeping the sea out: that would escalate quickly under sea level rise.
To be fair, fossil gas IS way better than coal in every aspect, so that switch is an upgrade. But the gas infrastructure does need maintenance, and that's expensive.
Now it's time for the next upgrade, electrification. Much cleaner than gas in so many ways. I'm guessing that it's easier (cheaper) to maintain the electric grid than to keep gas lines from leaking greenhouse gas.
@CelloMomOnCars@Chancerubbage the electric grid is also in a bad state, because privatised companies do not invest in infrastructure, because 'profits' come first and they know govs will bail them out if it breaks down.
There are instances (plenty) of refused planning for needed things simply because the grid is not up to the increased demand in that area.
All UK infrastructure has been ravaged by decades of privatisation and, more recently, private equity piracy. Even from far away it's sad and maddening to watch.
My thought on natural gas is, if they weren’t piping it to cities, they would merely be burning it off in oil fields. It’s a by-product, an accident of their exploration. Most organic chemistry from Vaseline to pharmaceuticals is likewise. And those relatively inert pipes end up being the conduit for a lot of communications fiber.
Natural gas has saved entire cities from freezing deaths during winter ice storms where the open air electrical lines collapse
@Thebratdragon@CelloMomOnCars there actually is a proposal for some of that, not sure it will happen. The idea is that (in US at least) nat gas companies own rights to dig in roadway. They convert those into geothermal wells, and circulate fluid from those to customers, managing the heat delivery, temperature of the ground sink, etc. We get more efficient heat pumps (the ground is always a better temperature than the air), no noisy-ish exterior units, no need to maintain those units.
@CelloMomOnCars to talk of relative efficiency of #HeatPumps to gas without mentioning the relative costs of electricity and gas, as the advocates and installers invariably do, is disingenuous; setting aside the high installation costs, as long as electricity costs more than twice than gas for energy unit (iirc, currently about 4x in the UK), heat pumps represent more expensive heating. Consequently in the UK it requires a fair degree of affluence to be able to afford the installation and ongoing costs.
That's true enough in the current situation: gas is not priced properly (with all the externalities left out), and there's not enough renewables to make grid electricity cheap.
The latter is changing, even in the UK, good thing.
@CelloMomOnCars it is electricity that is not priced correctly in the UK, not gas, and there is no indication of this changing in the UK at all. Here in Scotland we produce more electricity from renewables (wind) annually than we consume (something like 110%), but this is not reflected in our electricity prices, which are essentially pegged to the price of fossil fuels (and are some of the highest in the UK). There is no incentive for this to change, as Renewables are driven by the same market forces as Oil prices, and the companies only care about maximising profits for their shareholders (it's basically just the same people operating under different 'green' labels). The only way this could change is through a state-level intervention, which will not happen regardless which party is in power.
@tf@CelloMomOnCars I have a heat pump. It costs less to run than gas (for the same amount of heat in the house/water) so the basics maths works out = even if my house wasn't well insulated, and thus needed more energy to heat, it would cost less to heat with a heat pump than my gas boiler used to.
Yes, electricity is too expensive, especially when it's coming from renewables. But if you have a smart metre there are loads if tariffs that track the grid cost which is lower when greener.
If I remember right, it was in Germany that the price of electricity includes a hefty surcharge which is used to build new transmission lines from the new wind and solar parks and upgrade the ones to connect to Norway. While it's sensible policy - people would scream if you put a surcharge on the already expensive gas - it does make electricity significantly more expensive.
I can't wait for smart metering like you describe. Demand management also decreases the need for batteries.
@CelloMomOnCars it's any old excuse to run down heat pumps, isn't it. I wonder if these "heat pumps don't work on old houses, in cold conditions etc etc..." messages come from the gas/oil/coal industries.
Our ~1880s home has old rot-iron radiators (excellent for 'slow heat') and we installed an aquathermic heat-pump system ~3yrs ago. (Source temp all year = 11.8c). It has reduced our energy consumption (in KWh) to 1/4 of the gas boiler using same radiator system.
Air-air can't do this. Friends with a similar house to ours, installed air-air and in temps ~ -5°c, they can't get beyond ~16°c and have to supplement with other heating.
The technology has improved a lot: newer air to air heat pumps work down to –15F (which is –26C) where they have about 75-90% the efficiency that they do at 70F / 21C outside temp.
@CelloMomOnCars We had a dual-fuel heat pump installed in our house a couple years ago. It's cut our methane gas bill in half or even better. The electric-only ones with inverters are getting better all the time, even in very low temperatures. Our next upgrade project will drop the "duel-fuel" part and go full electric. 🌎👍
@CelloMomOnCars@inthehands …we already fit heat pumps in apartment windows, they’re called air conditioners
heat pumps for providing both heat and cooling work exactly the same way (it’s literally just a reversal valve) and discussing them as if they are somehow more complicated new technology sets people up to be price gouged