In 2016, the blue team won by 3 million votes and still lost the election. The system is broken. I'll still vote blue, but I don't think it will matter, especially since I'm not in a swing state.
Matters for your more local elections. Those swing states still send a lot of republicans to Congress every election. And control of Congress is pretty damn important.
DNC and DNC shills expecting free votes because they're democratically funding a genocide instead of fascistly funding a genocide
You morons in November when Trump inevitably wins due to horrendous voter turnout in November from former Democrat voters and not because the 5 communists in the USA made the difference
It's like a copy paste of Trump v Clinton and clearly no one learned their lesson from literally 8 years ago.
Fielding bad candidates because you can't be bothered to do the bare minimum has been a thing forever. As a friendly reminder, the thing that scared the DNC and RNC the most in my lifetime wasn't Trump, 9/11, or anything like that. It was Ross Perot.
They'd both burn everything rather than let anyone else play the game.
The youths wait till the last minute until midnight to get involved then they see how horrible shit is and get all morally frustrated. If you give a shit and want to know how this works LOOK AT VOTING RECORDS. Don't just focus in on your pet issue.
America itself was founded on Genocide. Are you also pushing for the return of land to indigenous people? How about slavery and reparations? Oil seeking imperialism?
Yes, pet issue fits.
Edit:
How about even just a slight push for better conditions for indigenous people?
You don't actually care about what we are up against and would rather see more people die in a violent revolution then even lift a finger. A revolution that ends in a Christo-fascist state because if you haven't noticed one side is actually united in their own insanity.
Or was I supposed to stop because you dismissed me and are riped in moral relativism.
Oh no we can't do the right thing now! We did the wrong thing 100 years ago and the rules of consistency mean we must keep doing the wrong thing no matter what!1111!!
Remember some of these people then and now were inauthentic posters trying to poison the well and promote political inaction disguised as enlightened policy positions.
Alot of people got the memo, as evidence by the complete lack of interest in 3rd parties by the left this go round. Still not enough of us though,
Exactly. They think being in a resistance is sexy, because they consume media that glorifies it. They dress it up and hide the realities while amplifying the parts that are heroic and good looking, and think that's what being in a resistance is like. Couple that with Main Character Syndrome and you've got a bunch of tankies who think they're going to kick ass at organizing a resistance and all be leaders when in fact most of them are going to do something stupid, get caught by the fascist regime, and die in a camp.
We've had discussions. But here I thought I'd just point out you rely on throwing as many things as you can at the wall. So many that you could win a bingo in your one comment!
SURELY the DNC will listen if they don't vote, don't run, and don't donate, but post a genocide Joe meme from their phone also made available by genocide while wearing clothes manufactured by a genocidal state on land acquired from an ethnic cleansing. That's the morally upstanding thing to do.
I know, why would they listen to the dipshit normal democratic citizens that donate to their campaigns, volunteer for them, vote for them and support them when they clearly should promote radical and unpopular policies to assuage self-appointed fake left internet pundits that hate and try to smear them, right?
I helped run the phone lines for Biden in 2020. And what did I get? I got shit on. I got to watch my country participate in a fucking genocide. You don't get to support that and then claim it's some radical minority that's the problem. The majority of non republicans want him to at least condition aid if not stop it all together at this point. All he has to do is follow the already written laws he's been ignoring.
Then these fucks disappear after the election is over. If you don't like how the last election went stick around and actually effect change BEFORE everything is on the line.
Well they didn't listen when we did vote so fuck em. And no, participating in Capitalism is not an endorsement of capitalism. Never was, never will be, because participation is enforced.
Democrats spend more time attacking the left than they EVER have Republicans, because their platforms are 95% the same. You don't get to insult half your base, tell them their priorities are bullshit baby dreams, move further right from your already mid right position, then blame those people for your loss.
By telling leftists to eat shit, you're saying you don't need leftists to win. If leftists are the single cause behind every dem loss then its probably time to change your platform to cater to leftists (or just admit that you're fascists that'll take the red fascism instead of the blue fascism before you shift left even a little bit.)
Dems spend all day hammering Rs, but if you are very online in mostly lefty spaces, you only hear about criticisms of the left. Its the online spaces that cause the distortion in views, not that its gonna change.
I think the important takeaway here is that you may hammer R's all you want, but if you want to rely on the left electorate, you have to serve the left electorate.
So the fight really is between "let's at least hold blatant fascism" and "let's tech Dems to listen a bit so that on their next election they would actually cater to the left instead of being lesser evil".
Because right now Dems are just that - lesser evil that doesn't care to align with the leftists.
I have no balls in this game, I'm not even a US citizen, but I see the point they're trying to make.
The left electorate evaporates when election time is over. We were unhappy in 2020 and got Biden in but when push came to shove we lost the mid terms even though we managed to halt a certain "red wave." That should have mobilized us even more but we fizzled because Biden can't do shit with a split congress.
They've been backing a genocide and demonizing the university protests. That's very real, physical things that are on the right the Democrats are doing.
I think that's been a proven case for European parliamentary democracies giving way to right wing and fascist parties. But that's more the reverse: the liberal and center-left move center and then lose.
But US politics doesn't have much leftist policy to shed, or many leftist politicians to exoricate, so it is more that even when Democrats win, policy stays right of center. Which is where the frustrated remark "both parties are the same" comes from, which everyone also shits on.
Since you know, the centre right continually stretches further right like a rubber band.
Dems can't move as far left as you want them to when there's a very real chance of losing. Want it to move left? Give Dems overwhelming and consistent wins and they can listen to the more left part of their party and move left.
Congressionally and locally: not nearly as much. There's a pretty solid track record especially since the Citizens United and SpeechNow decisions of the Democratic Party either mobilizing against progressives and for conservatives in primaries where there isn't even a GOP threat.
They even took down Katie Porter because she didn't kiss the ring of Dianne Feinstein.
But yeah, the acute threat the GOP poses gives them harm reduction status.
Took down Katie Porter? What fucking planet do you live on? I like Porter and have donated to her in the past, but she voluntarily gave up her seat to try to run for Senate, and she didn't finish top 2, and didn't get as much support as Adam Schiff.
Like fuck Feinstein but she had nothing to do with Porter not making it to the general for a Senate seat run.
The DNC funded Schiff hard and even funded the GOP candidate for attack ads against her. I mean you're objectively correct: she lost. But she was fighting two parties by the time the primary happened.
She announced her intent to run too early back when effort was still being made to "Weekend At Bernies" Feinstein, which waa her undoing.
Look, I like Porter more than Schiff, and if you want to blame Pelosi (not Feinstein) for being unfair in galvanizing support for Schiff before the contest was even started really, that's one thing.
But the main reason Schiff won is just that he's a more prominent politician who has a wider base of support. Democrats writ large prefer him to Porter, that's primarily why he won imo.
If this were a parliamentary system, sure. But our constitutional framework does not produce overwhelming, consistent victory. Like, ever, in its history.
May I remind you after the Bush administration, Obama won both the primaries and the overall election by campaigning from the left, not the center. And he won by a very wide margin.
Hmmmmm how ever could you influence who would win an election? Hmmmmmmm, Let's see. Oh yeah, by voting.
May I remind you that Obama was not running against an incumbent? (Not to mention that he mostly ran on hope. And after the war mongering Bush it really didn't take much.) When running against an incumbent, you have to go to the centre. That was how Clinton and Biden won. And we're back to how do you move things left? Simple: By voting. By giving consistent and overwhelming victories.
Biden isn't running against an incumbent, he is the incumbent. You want him to run from the center against an incumbent, OK. But then what? Run from the center again? That doesn't make sense.
Again, "consistent, overwhelming" victory is a fantasy. Control of the executive and legislative branch exchanges hands every few terms. That's just how this rule-set and this electorate play out.
JFC Now you're just playing dumb. Biden ran against the incumbent, do I have to specify I'm talking 2020? When Biden faced off against the incumbent in 2020 he had to run centre. JFC. And guess fucking what, that carries on. Especially when it's a rematch of the same guys, with the same policies, the same MO. Why do I bother when you play dumb. (Not that he's even announced what he's running on yet for 2024, but we can take a good guess).
Yeah you're back to excusing yourself for not voting. Jeez you know how you could change that changing hands stuff? By voting. Seriously why am I bothering when all you do is make excuses for not voting. If you want to continue you're gong to have to do better.
If anyone actually wants to stop the genocide in Gaza please vote out your republican congressman, almost every Republican congressman supported the resolution to restart weapons shipments and almost every democrat voted against it.
Unfortunately that's not going to work. Biden's biggest donors were pissed he even paused the 2,000 pound bombs. Voting out the republicans isn't going to purge this rot. We've worshipped at the altar of money for too long and now we're going to pay the price. As the old question goes, "What happens when the lords have more power than the king?"
This isn't a republican issue only. Most of congress, both democrats and Republicans have been voting in favor of funding israel. The big problem is that most of our politicians are bought by AIPAC.
The "anti semitism" bill passed 320-91 in house.
The 14.3 billon in aid to israel was passed by the house by 366-58. Only 37 Democrats and 21 Republicans opposed the bill.
The 14.3 billon in aid to israel was passed by the house by 366-58. Only 37 Democrats and 21 Republicans opposed the bill.
These numbers don't paint the full picture of some Democrats voicing moral objections to human suffering, versus some Republicans who object to the existence of government and will vote against funding for anything.
Tankie: "I convinced 20 Democratic Party voters to stay at home (and did the same for 0 Republican Party voters). Wait until Democratic politicians see that more voters favored the far right party. Then they're going to move left and fall on their knees and beg me to forgive them."
(Cue scene: swastika-adorned tanks rolling past the window)
"Stupid liberals, unwilling to fight the fascists like us true leftists." (Watches tanks and twiddles thumbs.) (Fetches keyboard.) "Let's tell everyone online that it's their own fault and they deserve this." (Sudden sound of harsh knocking on front door.)
At best, their actions will "only" cause another grid-locked presidency where progressives can't get their reforms to pass (which will then be used as the reason to abandon the likely last line of non-violent defense against fascists).
It's entirely the Democratic Party's fault if Trump wins another term. But their online cheerleaders are so keen to blame Communists who are such a miniscule percentage of the voting population. Are you going to start Muslim-bashing as well if they don't turn out in huge numbers to vote for Joenicide?
The sole "Trump will be worse" pitch and constant hostility is absolutely pathetic, and not an election winning strategy. Even your own party leadership knows it. The disconnect between the actual party and it's online supporters is huge.
Chips act, green energy, union empowerment, student debt, marijuana reform, etc etc etc. Anyone that says Biden isn’t doing anything is wilfully ignorant.
100%. Biden is a great president who has accomplished a shitload. I appreciate everyone of you out here who can ignore the bullshit and see the signal.
I'm waiting for the full student debt relief and pardons for everyone currently jailed for marijuana. It's better than nothing, but not enough to change the slow decay. Third party or bust.
There's a thing called jurisdiction. They can't give debt relief for everyone, just the ones with federal loans. They can't pardon everyone for marijuana, just those with federal offences. Most marijuana offences are state charges. So guess what? If you want state charges to be pardoned, you better vote in state elections!
Yeah you're bust all right voting for third party. Even if your third party wins (lol) you're going to find that little thing called jurisdiction.
Is it the Democratic Party’s job to spoon-feed everyone the reasons why trump is bad, and despite the lack of press, explain the good things they have done? Because it’s people like you who just spout the negatives and never point out the positives to balance against the potential fallout. You know, the line that goes like “The Dems have absolutely done [bad shit] but we have this [good shit over here] and obviously the republicans and trump want to undo all the [good shit] and are going to do their damndest to impose a fascist dictatorship.
The sole "Trump will be worse" pitch and constant hostility is absolutely pathetic…
Bullshit. It’s a valid reason. Again, I refer to my comment that there is some implication that people need to be spoon-fed. People need to take some damn responsibility and learn the differences themselves, that’s why we have the premise (as deeply flawed as it seems these days) that the people are supposed to be in charge of who gets elected. So if all you hear is “Trump bad” that’s your own damn fault for not taking a few minutes to figure out why, not the democratic party’s fault.
That's exactly the point. It's no mystery the GOP are undoing what the Dems achieve..literally a front page article where a gop appointed judge strikes down a Biden policy.
Edit: The more I think about this the more I realize how fucking dumb this argument is.
Two kids are asked to complete a project together. One does all the research and writes the whole report because the other was busy reading their Bible and posting on 4chan.
You're saying they both flunk and it's kid 1s fault.
I could practicallly take my thumbs and force them in your eyeballs I hate you so much.
So I actually agree with your point (minus the part where you physically want to gauge my eyeballs out), but it's still not going to make me vote Dems. Maybe if the Dems were actually perfect and I agreed with their policies, but I just supported them previously because they're "better than the Republicans". I'm tired of the BS, so now I'm camp third party. I don't expect you to change your mind off the Dems either, but I just wanted to give you a better idea how I got here.
Sorry bout the eye gouging thing but just thinking about bullshit group projects gets me worked up. It's hard to actually be mad at you because 33% of Americans don't even vote.
My thing is voting records. People hate it because it's boring and there isn't the whole drama but the dems typically vote in ways I agree with. 80% of the time I would guess. No they don't win and it's one thing to vote a way when there is a whip and you know the outcome before hand but this is how I align myself. It's also why I'm not a fan of Biden. Legislatively, voting records, we are not aligned. He has some real big stinkers on the record. If it weren't for the people around him I'd write him off too. I can't though because my people are behind him.
Are you going to start Muslim-bashing as well if they don’t turn out in huge numbers to vote for Joenicide?
I don't do the muslim bashing thing, but I do think the TikTok influencers convincing impressionable youth that A) there's a genocide happening (it's not) and B) not voting will make things better.
Foreign policy is foreign policy. Global interests don't change on a dime. The main difference between Biden and Trump is that Trump would be cheerleading Netanyahu and telling him he shouldn't be doing targetted airstrikes but instead carpet bomb entire neighborhoods. The US woulb be making zero effort in negotiating a ceasefire and there would not be a pier built to help distribute food.
Only an idiot would think that demanding the faculty of a university to do someone the bring about the end of a foreign conflict will accomplish anything. But the point of these pro-palestinian movements isn't to accomplish anything, it's all performative. It's just a reason to hang out in a tent with some friends and get social media clout.
Anyone with half a brain that actually cared about Palestinians would be voting for Biden and doing everything they could to get him re-elected because it's obvious how much worse things will be for Palestinians with Trump as President. Like how much do you think Trump will do to help in reconstruction of Gaza after the war is over?
But the Pro-Palestinian movement is mostly performative and they don't really care about Palestinians. If more Palestinians die, it'll be a good reason to have more fun get-togethers to "protest", more money to be made for TikTok influencers, and more donations to terrorist factions in Palestine. The suffering of Palestinians is very profitable for a lot of people.
Joe Biden cares more about Palestinians than you do.
lol we already have fascism. They’re crushing antiwar protests, the media is in lockstep, labor demonstrations have been broken and they’re pissing away the cost of healthcare, free college and any number of other benefits on supplying a genocide.
I’m never gonna vote for Biden again and if you don’t want to either, consider voting for the party for socialism and liberation.
Will you always pick the “better” of the two parties? If not, how bad does it need to get before you vote third party? I like to ask it this way: where’s your red line?
Personally it wasn’t the genocide that put me off ever voting Biden, but I wouldn’t describe a person for whom that’s a bridge too far as cheap.
It’s also not throwing your vote away to vote third party. If it were there wouldnt be an effect to it, and of course there clearly is. A third party vote means that party gets more funding, airtime and media exposure.
There are powerful examples of third parties in the us exerting significant pressure on policy while also not being spoilers.
So how much would be too much for you? our children dying in our streets by us weapons?
I'm a disabled single father. I have a daughter. We are an atheist household. I know game theory. I also know about the massive disinfo
campaign to try and stop as many democrat votes as possible. To republicans, I'm a satanic enemy of humanity.
I'm voting a straight blue ticket, I have convinced a dozen others to do the same. I am doing the thing I need to do to stop your little hypothetical. What would it take? Democrats would have to act as openly fascist, cruel, and hateful as the Republican party. They do not. They aren't fucking perfect because such a thing will never exist, but they are far from republican filth. A straight blue ticket is the best chance at an admin that will be open to change. Anything else helps republicans win and you know that pretty goddamn well. It's why you're here with that bullshit line of yours.
The democrats candidate is using his executive power to send arms to israel so they can perform war crimes. How much more openly fascist, cruel and hateful does he need to be? How much worse can a candidate get than the alternative when they’re literally doing something terrible that the alternative didn’t?
Voting for the administration that’s encouraging a crackdown on antiwar protests and supplying a genocide because you want to make sure it’ll be open to change.
I don’t have to want trump to win to see the absolute absurdity of that position.
I’m not saying all that to demean or belittle you, but instead to hopefully illustrate that we can’t build a just world by voting for Biden.
Third party candidates are not viable this election. Every poll that can be trusted to any degree is proof of this. Trumps base is going to vote for trump and the Republican party at large will very likely follow. Nearly the entire Republican party is openly fascist at this point and admitting that they plan to disassemble the government to suit their wants. They are open about allowing Israel to finish their genocide.
It is also well known at this point that disinformation campaigns really lean on trying to get any non Republican vote to either not vote at all, or vote third party. You have no logical arguments, no game theory, and no deeper understanding of everything on the table in this election. You mostly just use the appeal to emotion fallacy as if it's some magic gotcha. It is not, it is instead a signpost that you are not arguing in good faith.
Liars screamed "vote third party" last election too. Trump still lost, and we're working to ensure that stupid fuck loses again. Not only am I totally unswayed by your bs, I've ensured others will be voting straight blue as well. Youll maybe whine about it, but it won't change a thing.
Defend your pont using what was already said in this discussion. No appeal to emotion. Use current polling to help show that third parties stand any chance in hell. Essentially, prove you aren't one of the many many disinfo bots/agents.
I'll be carefully paying attention to any sources so sticking to generally trusted would be best
Okay: if the only vote acceptable to you is one that results in a win for that candidate or could feasibly result in a win for that candidate, you’re discounting a good portion of the outcomes of even the flawed American electoral system and how they effect the future.
Vote tallies are used to determine funding, ballot presence, debate opportunities, media representation and of course, public awareness.
It’s also important to recognize that we are not given the opportunity to vote against one or more candidates. There is no bubble on the scantron form that will indicate “I’m only doing this to keep the other guy out of office” or “I only support your platform on guns”.
We are given only the ability to voice support for candidates, their platforms and actions, with no room for nuance or debate.
Candidates and their teams and administrations aren’t shown weather or not you protested the arms shipments, spoke in defense of abortion or moved resolutions condemning the genocide forward in your local governments.
They will only see your vote.
Your vote for Biden is not a vote against trump, it is a vote of support for Biden and his fascist policy of genocide.
I am not making an appeal to emotion with that last sentence and hopefully the time and text spent to raise it to the level of logical and utilitarian shows that.
If you took all emotion out of your decision in November and purely cast your ballot based entirely upon utility, your analysis could very easily conclude that there is no acceptable option to support between the two major parties and that it’s better to be counted supporting a third party you would like to see more of in 2026, 2028 and beyond.
I’ve talked about red lines over and over in this thread and while I like the phrase because it’s something everyone can understand, I’m afraid it evokes the constantly shifting goalposts of our politicians own red lines and that limits its effectiveness. Instead of describing the hypothetical or real actions of candidates as red lines, I’ll use other phrases here to hopefully get the point across more clearly.
When giving support to either candidates platforms and actions is beyond the pale, a bridge too far, simply unacceptable to you using whatever methodology is appropriate to you, the only reasonable utilitarian, logical choice is to lend your counted and measured support to a party, candidate and platform you want to see next time.
If you can’t support the actions of the current regime or its opponent than this election is lost to you.
Now if we look beyond the actual votes themselves to the effect peoples discourse has on politicians platforms before the elections themselves it becomes even more difficult to defend saying “vote blue no matter who” or that you’ll be marking a straight ticket or whatever.
If we assume the pollsters and political parties are paying attention and using our discourse to modify their own platforms and actions in order to get support then it’s more utilitarian and logical to be posting about how you’ll never vote for the platform of genocide or that the democrats should dump Biden at the convention than it is to be speaking in opposition to those views because an administration that sees lots of people saying they need to change course or lose those votes come November is more likely to actually change course than one who sees lots of opposition to those voices in the form of “voting against trump”, “vote blue no matter who” or “harm reduction”.
You failed to mention that a good chunk of that discourse is fake. There are absolutely people not pleased with Bidens stance, and I'm glad to see him calling for a ceasefire and supporting protester rights; but the truth is no matter what, fake outrage will attack him relentlessly regardless of what he does. That's a simple truth of modern media and it must be factored into any discussion about political discourse.
You never actually let go of the appeal to emotion. You just tried to wrap it up nicer. You even went for a last sentence stinger which doesn't land as well as you think. The simple fact is that one party openly wants to go full fascist dictator. Openly wants to be more cruel, more vengeful, more lethal, and more pro genocide to an insane degree. It is extremely naive to think those people are at all playing fair. We must pull out all the stops to slam the door on them. It's the only logical choice because it leaves us with a government that can be shifted instead of a far right fascist kleptocracy.
Want to get mad? Get fucking mad at the Republicans who consistently force this kind of choice. They're super pro genocide so I would assume you would want to do absolutely anything you could to stop them getting more power, right?
so if you can't trust that your discussion will be heard and believed it's even more important to withhold your vote! if they're not gonna be able to figure out who's a real american disgusted with the administration and who's an op, the only way you can communicate is by not supporting the party doing a genocide using your vote.
my last sentence isn't an appeal to emotion, it's something i added after proofreading to make sure my arguments were all logically sound. in all our comments, you and i never established that part and as silly and pedantic as it is, that's part of making a sound logical argument.
as i said before, neither you nor i can vote against trump. we're not afforded that ability. we can't express through the ballot box that we want anybody but him. we can't have a ballot counted "i'm only doing this to keep trump out". what the american political process does allow us to do is express support for parties and their platforms. if a person votes biden, they're not voting "not trump", they're voting "biden". biden is aiding a genocide. a vote for biden is only interpret-able by the democrats as support for biden's actions. a vote for biden is literally a vote for genocide in that case.
the democrats have not been shifted left in at least forty years. it would be illogical to expect that expressing support for their rightward shift during biden's administration and their fascist crackdown on antiwar protests and aiding of a genocide through your biden ballot would make that change.
I am not saying the following to support republicans, but to build towards a point: republicans didn't force this kind of choice. republicans didn't send billions of aid to israel, enough to implement lots of the social programs and reforms democrats can't ever seem to get done. republicans aren't running a president who literally said he wasn't going to seek a second term. republicans didn't break the rail strike.
at some point if you don't want to have all those failures, if you want to be able to push the democrats left, if you want to have a future that includes the reforms and social programs they promise and never deliver, they have to see that a constant rightward tack isn't gonna win elections.
if no one is able to tell what discourse is real and what discourse is fake, your only choice to push the democrats left is to withhold your vote from them and record it for a party you actually believe in the platform of. there will be a record of votes cast for that party and after the dust settles, democrat strategists can say "gosh, it looks like abandoning the left, arab americans and people of color was a mistake".
on the other hand, if you feel like there is a way to distinguish real flesh and blood americans who won't tolerate this abhorrent administration from the ostensible bots and foreign trolls, join me in yelling at the top of your lungs that biden has to stop the genocide, or that the democrats have to drop him at the convention, or really anything except "we have to oppose trump".
because there's more utility in that, more logic in joining a chorus calling for justice even when it includes people you might see as your enemy than the utility and logic in doubling down and supporting what you know to be wrong.
The entire point of third parties in US presidential elections, right now, is to syphon votes away from the main parties. They are otherwise entirely useless.
They need more office down ballot....way down ballot...to start making any sort of progress towards the possibility of ever winning a presidential election.
It's not about "sending a message". Nobody is listening there. You want to send a message, put it in a letter or a picket sign. Not a ballot box.
I use Perot 92 as a counter example, because if the significant influence that campaign had on the ultimate fate of nafta and how it turned out not to have acted as a spoiler.
Why would you say your feelings in a protest or a letter to your congressman but not in your ballot where it literally gets counted?
92 Perot had enough votes to allow Clinton to win Ohio, California, Pennsylvania, and likely several others, had the majority of his voters gone to the more closely aligned GHWB.
If you consider yourself conservative, Perot is likely the reason Clinton won the electoral college in a landslide, while he himself received exactly 0 EC votes.
Progressive people, especially those concerned about the environment, can say the same for Nader in 2000, and only have to look at Florida.
Back in ‘99 there was a paper that showed Perot had the most impact the opposite direction, reducing Clinton’s margin of victory. I remember it because back then it made the news that what everyone thought to be obviously true (the businessman from Texas’ campaign spoiled the republican vote) was wrong. It’s even cited in the Wikipedia article about Perot 92!
Florida literally went against bush jr in the recount and his brother who was the governor of Florida at the time had a significant impact on calling it before the recount came in.
Now once again: why would you make your feelings known in a protest, but not when they can actually be counted?
A third party would need to have a feasible chance of winning even a single fucking state, and the literal only chance of that would be if every single Democrat and Republican spontaenously and simulteanously dropped dead right before voting day.
The amount of harm caused by Biden would have to be equal to or greater than than the harm caused by Trump, which is demonstrably not the case.
So no amount of parallel awfulness would prompt you to reject both parties? As an example, if the atrocities being visited on Gaza took place in America would that be enough?
You won't get an answer, these people's script is they have enormous latitude in calling people names, moving goalposts, and generally as much punching left as they can muster, but under absolutely no circumstance can they say -in any way, shape or form- that they won't vote for the blue team.
The one you say reduces harm is detaining more people at the border than trump did and both aiding and denying a genocide.
When is it too far? What would be beyond the pale enough for you to turn your back on Biden?
I have to ask again: would you still vote for Biden instead of a third party if he were supplying weapons to and denying the bombing of American hospitals?
I know I sound like a broken record, but where’s the line?
If Joe Biden were blowing up American Hospitals than we're well past the point where voting would accomplish anything. But he's not doing that, he's just selling arms to a longtime ally of America and not paying close enough attention to the reasons people are telling him to stop. Still bad, but...
Oh he’s only supplying weapons to a country committing a genocide and then denying that it’s a genocide in public.
I’m gonna ask some questions that will probably sound like accusations but I’m asking them to feel out who you are and what matters to you, not to accuse or harm:
Still bad but what?
So you wouldn’t support Biden if the genocide were happening to Palestinians on American soil, what about if it was French people being invaded and bombed by Israelis wielding American weapons? What if it was Libyans?
What if instead of pissing away the cost of any number of domestic programs in weapons shipments to israel, Biden was sending arms to russia to use on ukranians?
It's a terible situation and I do not intend to imply otherwise, however at the end of the day. I am an American, and I need to think about what's best for America.
Palestine is still gonna be in the shit if Biden is re-elected, and if Trump is re-elected they'll be in more than just shit.
However, if Biden is re-elected, I don't have to worry about ending up in a concentration camp for being trans.
We are in a winner takes all system,
It has limitations, Its very stable with 1, primary party, its possible to have 2 primary parties, its while not impossible, very very hard to have more primary parties.
Sure its possible particularly in a state for a new party to replace an existing one.. However most cases of this the new party becomes part of or replaces an existing parties leadership. However if you really want more parties we need something like instant runoff elections, Im very disappointed in how much push back on that has happened where its been attempted. (or a parliamentary system.. but i dont see that fitting into the US system)
You don’t need fundamental change to the system to not vote for the president committing a genocide. You can just pick someone else. That’s the point of a vote.
You're absolutely right, it IS ridiculous how many supposedly left-leaning people are willing and even eager to see a Trump presidency to 'get one over on the shitlibs'.
The convention could always select a different democrat. Or it could have if the democrats hadn't purposely put it after the ballot deadline in many states so Biden would already be on the ballot, before the convention that supposedly nominates him.
It's just not the either/or situation you're looking for. It's entirely possible to be so disgusted by the state of American politics that you just don't vote. Or you vote third party. Your memes are having a negative impact at this point. Nobody who was on the fence is going to say, "Oh gosh I don't want to be commie, I better vote Joe!"
There is a side that could be worth supporting. But you're making very hard to do so. Biden could win the election today by cutting off military aid to Israel. Instead he has goons out here threatening everyone. So far I'm not sure what I get for supporting him. You guys talk about plan 2025, but this kind of bullshit used to just be Republican stuff. So from where I'm sitting it looks like the DNC is giving up on Democracy too. It's certainly giving up on listening to it's voters.
That's a coherent paragraph. Each sentence is meant to support and provide context for the others. So taking it all out of context isn't helpful in decoding it's meaning.
Team blue is team bad. It's just that team red is even worse.
But if we always follow this logic, we may as well allow them both to enshittify eternally, because reps will be just a bit more evil, and dems won't have the incentive to improve, either.
The question is: at which point should Dems be taught a lesson and how? Is current voting a good avenue for that?
The best time to plant a tree was yesterday. The next best time is today. As you point out, this doesn't get better if we keep doing the same thing. So now is the time.
They want Donald to win so that China gains ground. They claim to love leftist economies but are simping for countries that produce plenty of billionaires.
The trade war with China might be a way to assert US dominance and squash the competition, but in the grand scheme of things, protectionist policies are very bad for the global economy and global progress.
And leftists typically are internationalists, putting global efforts above national ones.
So it's not just love for China, even if Lemmygrad and Hexbear folks are really unhealthily obsessed with the country.
Consistent application of the law hasn't stopped them with Roe v Wade. It's not going to stop them anywhere else. Their motivation to maintain power, control, and the status quo takes priority over all. They'll just find some bullshit reason to rule how they like, such that rules apply for others but not themselves.
They could rule per the compact clause that the compact wasn't allowed, but reading that clause its very clearly a military/defense clause and not a voting one. Fair amount of depth there.
Try to think beyond your adorable little "protest vote" when your choices are between boring corporatists and 100% concentrated evil. Or you may never have to worry about voting ever again.
I'm so glad that I live outside the US. Not that we have good options but at least more than 2. I guess I would still vote for Biden but I wouldn't call it a democracy
The US is mostly a democracy. It could be a full democracy if they got rid of the Electoral College, put in non-partisan election commissions (to prevent gerry-mandering) and had a formalized run-off system instead of a creaky old primary system. Their system is antiquated but it works most of the time, but the "mostly works" part of it means there's not a lot of pressure to make improvements so the US could be a democracy all of the time.
Still wouldn't be truly democratic if the media institutions are owned by the ultra wealthy, and parties only in power by gaining support from the ultra wealthy. It would be better, and I do not oppose these fixes, but it wouldn't be complete.
It started as a name to use against militaristic anarchists that argued that only violence can save us.
Now it seems more like something MAGA uses obfuscate and confuse. It's very VERY similar to Pinko from the Macarthy era.
"I don't like what you say; but you used some keywords that match with this word I've heard other people use against you so I'll use it too"
Ultimately it's playground name calling when the other person isn't listening. (Or a bot or paid troll )
As an anarcho communist, I'm still voting for Biden because I'm not A FUCKING MORON.. (Not name calling. This is fact backed by evidence 😉) and this whole business annoys me.
The term "tankie" was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.
It did not start with militant anarchists and has nothing to do with whether violence can save us or not. It was, and is still, about whether or not you support ML dictators and brush away their obvious failures.
There is no McCarthy Committee today looking for Tankie supporters in the US. There are people who make excuses for the genocides and repression of dictators who wore red, and there are people who don't want a movement to free humanity tied to the shackles of its worst attempts.
I use the term because I don't want my advocacy for a system designed to improve the lives of every person on earth, granting them maximal freedom, to be defined by the failures of men in the past who thought the only way to accomplish that was to murder and silence everything in the way of their personal pursuit of power.
A subgroup of people on the left who believe in communism and mostly hold pro-Russia and pro-China views, while often having a "doomer" mentality in regard to the US.
Unfortunately, that has them made very susceptible to Russian propaganda, to the point where they're now doing the bidding of Russia and helping fascists rise to power.
The mechanisms are similar to MAGA. They've disconnected from classical media and their echo chambers censor posts that highlight positive developments in the US or posts critical of Russia/China. Once inside, their world view collides with the outside and it's hard to get out again. Similarly to Russians and Republicans, they vilify liberals ("liberals are complicit in xy", "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds", "Marx warned liberalism inevitably leads to fascism", etc.).
On here, they're largely the people dissuading US Democratic Party voters from turning out, via "both sides bad" and recently via claim-to-purity (I'm sure you've encountered one of those "genocide joe" posts, which are kinda awkward, since tankies commonly support/deny China's genocide on the Uyghurs and Russia's genocide on Ukrainians).
Its existence stems from people defending the massacre at Tiannenmen square.
I dont know if you or the person you picked it up from made this up but that is not the origin of the term.
The term "tankie" was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.
Tankies are pro authoritarian, and always have been.
Linkerbaan believes the murder of civilians is 'targeted resistance' because the civilians were under a regime supported by the West. They're not arguing in good faith.
