CanadaPlus ,

When someone says this, I'm never sure which way they're going to want it shifted. Even in this case, I'm like 80% sure "US allies" would be more pro-Palestine but not 100%.

dan1101 ,
@dan1101@lemm.ee avatar

Yeah and it sucks. Biden to me is ok, but this single issue could really hurt him.

Marsupial ,
@Marsupial@quokk.au avatar

“Biden enables genocide, but to me he is ok”

Really? What’s a person gotta do to not be ok in your books if you look past genocide?

anticolonialist ,

It a symptom of Trump derangement syndrome,

TropicalDingdong ,

I mean, I think we've been saying this since November.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Why? Trump's people met with Netanyahu. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/donald-trump-foreign-policy-advisers-met-israeli-pm-netanyahu-source-says-2024-05-20/

Trump said only a fool would have not acted like Israel after October 7th: https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/03/25/trump-to-israel-hayom-only-a-fool-would-have-not-acted-like-israel-on-oct-7/

He said that he would bar Gazan refugees if he were president: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/17/trump-muslim-ban-gaza-refugees

His son-in-law and advisor Jared Kushner said Gaza's beachfront property could be valuable: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/19/jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-property-israel-negev

He said if elected, he would crack down on Pro-Palestinian protests: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/28/trump-promises-crackdown-on-pro-palestinian-protests-if-elected

The only way it would hasten Trump's rise is if people continue to not know all of that. Maybe they should be educated.

jake_jake_jake_ ,

i think the issue is not necessarily that voters who are disappointed by biden on this issue would vote for trump directly, or even think he would make a different or "better" choice but instead may not turn out, or vote for a 3rd party candidate. with the race as close as it is now, that might be all it takes.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Then it behooves all of us who want to stop Trump to give them other reasons to vote for Biden. We need to let them know that Trump is not going to be any less supportive of genocide and it's either Trump or Biden. Voting third party or abstaining won't change that.

It helps if you try to convince people to vote on down ballot races too. Too many people think president is the most important thing to vote for when local and regional elections can matter far more on a personal level.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

It also behooves Biden to just... not. Is supporting Israel's genocide so important to him that he'd rather let Trump win?

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

There is no point in waiting for Biden to change.

Zehzin , (edited )
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

I don't need him to change, I need him to do what everyone else is already doing for him, that is do something he doesn't believe in so Joe Biden wins the election.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, there's also no point in waiting for him to do that either. If that's what you're waiting for in order to vote for him, you might as well just vote for Trump.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Well, if not gonna move an inch we all better plan ahead as if he's already lost.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

...or you can work on getting out the vote to prevent the guy who literally says he's going to be a dictator get into office.

Your bizarre "we have to force Biden to do something or fuck it all" attitude is so ridiculously unhelpful.

Zehzin , (edited )
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Helpful? The defeatist attitude isn't helpful either. Why are people being held to higher standards than the dipshit they're being asked to vote for? It's easier to get one old piece of shit to act to his own interests and do the bare fucking minimum and stop murdering children than to convince a lot of people to support murdering children.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

How exactly is me saying that it behooves us to educate people a defeatist attitude? I'd say that "Biden needs to do this or else I won't vote for him" is defeatist since you know he won't do that.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

you know he won’t do that.

That attitude. If you think he prefers Trump over trying to at least appear like he doesn't enjoy drinking orphan blood then your opinion of him is even lower than mine.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That's not defeatism, that's realism. Neither Trump or Biden will change America's pro-Israel stance that America has had for decades and only a fool would think otherwise. So basing your vote on that and refusing to vote for him if he doesn't is also foolish because it will result in a dictatorship.

"Either he does what I want or I let the dictator win" is as foolish as it gets.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Why can't he change his own stance? It would be very foolish of him to allow a dictatorship to take hold because of that.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

He can, but expecting him to and not voting for him if he doesn't is, again, extremely foolish. All it does is get the other guy with the exact same stance, but who also wants a dictatorship and concentration camps to win.

Because you didn't get your way.

In fact, that's not just as foolish as it gets, it's as selfish as it gets.

I'm guessing you aren't trans, which is why you have this attitude. You won't be thrown into a concentration camp so it's fine for you.

The only bad genocide is the one happening on the other side of the world, after all. Genocide of trans people? That's not a bad thing, is it?

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Damn it sucks that Joe would rather support two genocides than none. Good luck

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds more like you would rather support two genocides. Biden can't force you to not vote or vote for someone else, that's on you.

And by not voting to stop Trump, you're voting in favor of trans genocide.

Which you're obviously okay with.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I don't need to tell myself anything. You've already shown that you don't think trans lives are worth saving.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Hey since every vote counts I should probably warn you that this strategy of yours of trying to shame apathy is dogshit and hurts more than it helps.

Damn, you really must hate trans people by doing that

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Doing the "I'm rubber, you're glue" thing won't work here, because you're the one talking about doing this to stop genocide, not me. And yet you are apparently totally unconcerned with the ongoing trans genocide in America and how it would get worse under Trump.

If that does concern you, what do you plan to do about it? Will you just stand by as trans people are marched into camps and say, "I guess Biden should have done what I wanted" or do you have some sort of idea of how to stop things from getting that far that doesn't rely on other people you don't even know to do what you personally want?

Generally when I get into discussions like this with people like you, they deny there is a trans genocide going on and imply there won't be one if Trump gets in either. Let's see if you're more grounded in reality and can actually answer my question.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Hey, I'm the one trying to get Joe to win the election here, if you're fine with just giving up and letting he lose it that's up to you, I won't accuse you of secretly wanting trans people to die because that's a fucked up thing to say and helps no one.

But to answer your question, when trans people are being marched to camps because Joe Biden didn't want to say Israel should stop killing children I'll do what I always do and fight beside them.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

What does "fight beside them" mean? They won't be fighting for the same reason Jews didn't fight when Nazis came for them. They were met with an overwhelming force in the entire Nazi government.

So what exactly do you plan to?

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

I plan to not have a conversation about resistance movements and guerrilla warfare with you right now. See you around and good luck

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The resistance movements and guerilla warfare that stopped the Holocaust?

The resistance movements and guerilla warfare that is stopping the genocide in Gaza?

You plan not having a conversation about them because they don't work. But you also aren't interested in talking about stopping it before it starts.

Archelon ,

I think what we’ll see is Biden’s support for Israel not so much making people more likely to vote for Trump as making them more likely to not vote at all.

(Which, in a 2-party system where one side ALWAYS falls in line behind their candidate, makes that side much more likely to win.)

And for the people who will choose to NOT vote for Biden over Israel, I think they’re likely more concerned with what Biden is doing rather than what Trump might do.

Though, as you say, it will definitely be worse not just for Palestine but for Ukraine and the world at large.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry to repeat this comment, but it really applies here too since I don't disagree with either of you:

Then it behooves all of us who want to stop Trump to give them other reasons to vote for Biden. We need to let them know that Trump is not going to be any less supportive of genocide and it’s either Trump or Biden. Voting third party or abstaining won’t change that.

It helps if you try to convince people to vote on down ballot races too. Too many people think president is the most important thing to vote for when local and regional elections can matter far more on a personal level.

unmagical ,

SCOTUS nominations are probably the only thing gonna make me actually vote for Biden. He's done some stuff that was good, sure, but no where near what I would have liked to see him accomplish, and his approach to the ongoing genocide is inexcusable, but I can't let that mean I help Trump decide the court layouts for the rest of my life by staying home.

Bahalex ,

Right, this election, and the last, where more about who the president surrounds themselves with. Who they appoint to key positions. Not the individual.

homesweethomeMrL ,

Anyone who doesn’t vote - especially to stop trump - is more than a cretinous idiot, they’re actively working to destroy the world.

Articles like this do not help, and posting them does not help. Teh BiDeN GeNoSiDe crowd are actively doing what russian trolls want.

If someone has the one-and-only issue of stopping Israel from the genocide they’re obviously committing, they’re going to have to do something else. Bitching about Biden on the interwebs is the very least effort possible. (And kudos to them on having such a myopic worldview that they only give a shit about one thing. The rest of us are trying to avoid the destruction of much more than that and would superappreciate it if they could shut the fuck up for about sixteen more weeks or so.) If we make it out of this election alive or with a majority, then it’s all systems go for bitchapalooza. Until then, fight trump or gtfo.

slurpinderpin ,

Hey college kids, here’s some summer reading ^

homesweethomeMrL ,

Too bad they already know everything about everything

aaa999 ,

op is one of the three useful idiots that spams hundreds of onos ukranian nazis :( type articles, always check the username

aaa999 ,

i honestly would love to see the discord where these guys organize their downvote brigade. embarrassing. look how mad "check the username" makes them. if you want to make them this mad, form the habit of checking the username

andrewrgross ,
@andrewrgross@slrpnk.net avatar

When I see these comments, I wonder if you understand that this isn't effective politicking.

Will this bring you comfort when Trump wins? Explaining why you think Biden should have won?

You can't logic the electoral outcome you want, matter how many links you include. It doesn't matter that Trump is worse. We know. It's not working.

Also: Biden needs a turnout operation. In 2020, it was all the Bernie lefties who actually knocked on doors. Biden supporters write checks, but ultimately you need folks to remind their neighbors to vote, and give people rides. I think most lefties will still turn out and vote for Biden. But they aren't going to pull him across the finish line like they did last time.

Biden has to change course. I think he'll have a very, very, hard time winning if he stays on the current course.

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