Probably the fact that they started a war on Oct. 7th that they can’t win, as a starting point for escalation of conflict specifically.
So you are going to just ignore 76 years of history about this situation?
Also Palestinians did not attack on 7 October 2023, it was Hamas. Normal Palestinian civilians are innocent. I will once again copy-past what, I said to another Lemmy user because it seems some particular people can’t (or won’t) do research themselves:
‘’Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.’’
If you want to go on the route ‘’who started this war’’; it’d be Israel and Britian who ‘’gave’’ the land to them.
that they can’t win, as a starting point for escalation of conflict specifically.
Obvious they cannot ‘win’ because it’s Israel state and the US country (US giving billions to Israel) versus a group of people. Hamas want their land, homes and humans right back.
The normal Palestinian civilians do not even want to fight at all. All they want is have human rights, be able to be free from occupation, torture. They don’t want to their entire families to be murdered out just because they’re Palestinians.
It’s immensely bad what Hamas done on 7 October but it’s also immensely bad what Israel has been doing since 1948 up until 2024 (ongoing). If you push people far enough, they will fight back in the worst way possible and that’s happened.
Also imagine this; you are in your house with five family members. Suddenly group of 10 strangers force their way into your home, kill all your family members and force you in the bathroom for 10 years. For 10 years they have been living now, you manage to escape, fight back and kill several of these people. Now suddenly you are the aggressor, committed a crime and they (who took your home and killed your family) are the victims. That do be insane if it really happens right?
Well newsflash, that is truly happening to the Palestinian people.
The "study" appears to be a paper from a student group at a liberal arts university in Wesleyan, Connecticut.
While I'm sure Wesleyan University is a fine school, calling it a "coalition of prestigious academic institutions" is a bit of a stretch.
So... uni students upset over things they saw on TikTok put 105 pages of whatever crap they could dreg up from the internet into a PDF and post it onto their squarespace page. "Middle East Monitor" links to the "study" says it's from a "coalition of prestigious academic institutions". And then a link to this "news" site gets posted to Lemmy.
The study, conducted by the University Network for Human Rights, the International Human Rights Clinic at Boston University School of Law, the International Human Rights Clinic at Cornell Law School, the Centre for Human Rights at the University of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School, presents a thorough legal analysis of Israel’s conduct in the context of the Genocide Convention of 1948.
I think you read the wrong article or hasbara answer
They don't mention their associations with these other universities on their squarespace page. But there's some coalition that the "University Network for Human Rights" is a part of, so maybe these other groups are a part of that?
James Cavallaro is a law professor that teaches or has taught at Wesleyan... And also Yale, Columbia, and UC Berkeley. He's currently the executive director of the University Network for Human Rights, and before that founded the International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic at, uh let's see here... Oh yeah, Stanford.
Also, Wesleyan University, by the way, rivals Ivy League schools as far as academic rigor goes.
You trying to diminish the validity of these organizations would work a lot better if you bothered to Google them for five seconds first.
To the "no shit" and "this is obvious" people, agreed. However, "this is obvious, just look" is nowhere near as good an argument as one with actual data. Especially when looked at in the future with a historical lens.
University Network for Human Rights, the International Human Rights Clinic at Boston University School of Law, the International Human Rights Clinic at Cornell Law School, the Centre for Human Rights at the University of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School
Crazy. I never expected to see big Ivy League school names there but here we are. Even the most status quo and US aligned universities are now calling it a genocide.
To be fair there's a pretty big difference between the professors and the administration. The university boards haven't changed their position because wealthy alumni threatened to stop giving money. (This is also what got the president of Harvard fired.)
Professors have been out there with the students the entire time.
conducted by the University Network for Human Rights, the International Human Rights Clinic at Boston University School of Law, the International Human Rights Clinic at Cornell Law School, the Centre for Human Rights at the University of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School
So yeah, big names there. I'm not hopeful about it changing Biden's mind, though.
Hasn't changed US foreign policy for decades, so yeah probably not. From arming to giving Israel protection in the UN, the US is all in on Palestinian genocide. The US does not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC because the court could be used for "political reasons". This goes back to the creation of the ICC, which the Clinton admin helped to form but then vote against. Israel, Russia, Israel, China, Libya, and Qatar are the only countries who do not recognize the jurisdiction of the court. There is a through line on why they don't: it is because of what they have already done and continue to do that would levy charges at the court. In fact the US has the American Service Members Protection Act to make cooperation with the court next to impossible.
TL:DR; the US has been complicit in Palestinian genocide since Eisenhower.
Yeah, like being affiliated to universities is some kind of stamp of trustworthiness at this point... After the pro-Hamas protests that took place in said universities, and the persecution of Jewish students who were basically blocked from attending school.
You seem to be an Israel-supporter that is okay with the genocide.
Wanting to stop the genocide and want Israel to stop killing innocent civilians (men, women and children) is not supporting Hamas in anyway.
It is however, standing for human rights. Rights to live, rights to have a normal human condition (a home, a land, a place to be, having education and everything that’s available for humanity).
If you really want to go that way;
Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.
So the only one to blame for Hamas existing is Israel themselves.
EDIT: Checking upon your comment history, yeah. You’re definitely a Israel-supporter and probably a Zionist. I recommend anyone to check his comment history.
I don't support the indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza territory by the IDF. The IDF should practice restraint and act in a way to minimize civil casualties.
But, consider that the Hamas militants deliberately use civilian buildings (hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.) as their military bases, and try their best to blend in with the civilians, when international law dictates all combatants in a war should be wearing uniforms so as to avoid mixing civilians in the skirmishes.
Under those circumstances, and knowing that until the Hamas is anhilated there won't be true peace for Israeli civilians (risk of new missile attacks), it's only natural that Israel will keep pressuring for the destruction on Hamas.
Will there be collateral damage? Sure, like all wars there will be. Especially when Hamas is doing its best to maximize civilian casualties so the useful idiots in the west take pity on them.
Should Israel be scrutinized for their effectiveness in minimizing civilian casualties? Sure. But I don't think that we, living comfortably in countries in which there's no neighbouring nation trying to send missiles at us, should be in a position to demand they cease the war just because we want them to, or pressure them to accept any ceasefire deal that's not good for them. It's primarily up to Israel to decide what's best for the security of their citizens. And also for the security of their soldiers, which have families awaiting for their safe return home when this war's over.
In this scenario, I'd not blame the IDF if they're a little more trigger-happy than we would feel it's reasonable. It's easy for us to judge when we're safe and sound in our countries. But the soldiers are human too and they'll do what's best to preserve their lives. If a neighbouring country launched missiles against my country, I'm sorry for sounding cold, but I'd rather they die them my people die. Of course, I'd prefer if the military acted in a way to minimize casualties so as to preserve the innocent, but if being too careful in this quest endangers the soldiers of my country, I'd prefer my soldiers enhance their survival rate a little more than grant this benefit to the nation that attacked me first.
I don't support the indiscriminate bombing of the Gaza territory by the IDF. The IDF should practice restraint and act in a way to minimize civil casualties.
Your comments contradict one another. You say this here but your other comments give a whole different mindset.
But, consider that the Hamas militants deliberately use civilian buildings (hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.) as their military bases, and try their best to blend in with the civilians, when international law dictates all combatants in a war should be wearing uniforms so as to avoid mixing civilians in the skirmishes.
This doesn’t matter much. Because Israel have bombed refugee camps where Hamas didn’t even went to. Israel is bombing anyone who’s a Palestinian, heck even journalists. The argument of “Hamas is using humans as shields” is an old excuse.
Would Israel bomb their own hospitals, schools, refugee camps and all that if Hamas was within Israel? (bet not).
Under those circumstances, and knowing that until the Hamas is anhilated there won't be true peace for Israeli civilians (risk of new missile attacks), it's only natural that Israel will keep pressuring for the destruction on Hamas.
You see the old argument of “Hamas being destroyed” does not work at all. Israel killing innocent civilians creates more hatred against Israel as a whole. It means that anyone who’s a Palestinian and lost their entire land, home, friends, acquaintances and family will high likely join Hamas to get vengeance. Now, guess whose fault is for children joining Hamas after losing everything they ever cared for? Israel.
Will there be collateral damage? Sure, like all wars there will be. Especially when Hamas is doing its best to maximize civilian casualties so the useful idiots in the west take pity on them.
36 000 innocent civilians is not collateral damage. Its purposefully murdering innocent Palestinian people, its genocide and all the evidence backs it up.
It is not Hamas who’s bombing refugee camps, hospitals, schools, homes and any place that a Palestinian is. It is Israel. You’re good on pointing fingers but there’s zero factual evidence.
Should Israel be scrutinized for their effectiveness in minimizing civilian casualties? Sure. But I don't think that we, living comfortably in countries in which there's no neighbouring nation trying to send missiles at us, should be in a position to demand they cease the war just because we want them to, or pressure them to accept any ceasefire deal that's not good for them. It's primarily up to Israel to decide what's best for the security of their citizens. And also for the security of their soldiers, which have families awaiting for their safe return home when this war's over.
You do realize from the moment Israel become a state, Israel has never lived in actual peace? They stole the land, displaced 750 000, murdered thousands of people. Set fires to homes, good and everything else. Placed mines so Palestinians cannot return.
This “war” didn’t start on 7 October 2023 neither somewhere in 2020. It started the moment Israel decided to murder and steal everything the Palestinian people owned.
The ceasefire deal is a joke to begin with. 6 weeks ceasefire and then they’ll continue bombing the entirety of Gaza again. Its needs to be permanent. Israel has to be held accountable for their actions (genocide).
Israel want 100% safety? Well, should not have stolen the land, displaced thousands of Palestinian people, murdering, Apartheid system, discrimination. And for everything I say here; I can link sources if you want. It’ll be tomorrow though, not on PC. But I will if you ask me to.
In this scenario, I'd not blame the IDF if they're a little more trigger-happy than we would feel it's reasonable. It's easy for us to judge when we're safe and sound in our countries. But the soldiers are human too and they'll do what's best to preserve their lives. If a neighbouring country launched missiles against my country, I'm sorry for sounding cold, but I'd rather they die them my people die. Of course, I'd prefer if the military acted in a way to minimize casualties so as to preserve the innocent, but if being too careful in this quest endangers the soldiers of my country, I'd prefer my soldiers enhance their survival rate a little more than grant this benefit to the nation that attacked me first.
It has nothing to do with “easy to judge”.
There’s lots and lots of evidence. Documents, videos, articles and even actual ex-IDF soldiers speaking out.
IDF soldiers are always “happy to trigger their gun” since day one. Not just now.
Certainly soldiers are humans to but these soldiers are killing innocent civilians. They’re smiling, joking, stealing everything from the Palestinians. They’re recording themselves. The videos are all over Instagram.
They let children and other people signature their bombs with cruel words like “kill them all” which I can give a source for as well.
There’s in no way defending their atrocities. No matter how bad you want to.
Like I said, you’re an Israel-supporter and by your other comments in others thread, a possible Zionist.
I already told you; Israel is the core reason as to why Hamas even exist.
By the way, sorry for the late response. As I knew my responses would require the most extensive use of quoting, I decided to respond it last.
Your comments contradict one another. You say this here but your other comments give a whole different mindset.
The main idea I'm trying to express is that the IDF should practice restraint where possible. If the restraint is at the cost of raising the risk of their opperations, I'd not blame them if they don't restrain themselves as much as we, people that are safe and sound possibly in another continent, would think is reasonable.
This doesn’t matter much. Because Israel have bombed refugee camps where Hamas didn’t even went to. Israel is bombing anyone who’s a Palestinian, heck even journalists. The argument of “Hamas is using humans as shields” is an old excuse.
I'm not aware of all the movements of the IDF. When Isreal bombs any civilian building, they always claim it was being used as a Hamas hideout or a missile launching base. If there's civilians casualities, it's possible the Hamas forced them to remain there to act as human shield deterrent. If not, I see no reason for Isreal to waste their bombs on buildings where there's no terrorists hiding. For now there's no way to confirm things one way or another. If journalists died, we can't confirm at the moment the IDF targeted them specifically or if it's mere casuality of war (doing journlistic work in a war zone is risky, after all).
Would Israel bomb their own hospitals, schools, refugee camps and all that if Hamas was within Israel? (bet not).
In this case, I think it would e much easier to identify the Hamas terrorists when they're surrounded by people of another ethinicity, and when those people would gladly point out where's the terrorist instead of being coerced to cooperate with Hamas. So I think Israel would not bomb the hospital.
You see the old argument of “Hamas being destroyed” does not work at all. Israel killing innocent civilians creates more hatred against Israel as a whole. It means that anyone who’s a Palestinian and lost their entire land, home, friends, acquaintances and family will high likely join Hamas to get vengeance. Now, guess whose fault is for children joining Hamas after losing everything they ever cared for? Israel.
Even before the October 7th, Hamas was already fostering hatred for Israel in its population. The children were being indoctrinated from their school ages to hate Israel. Most humanitarian donations the Gazan government received from the UN and other countries they diverted for the construction of their tunnel system and missile launchers whenever possible. Contruction materials for building houses and schools were all used to build the tunnels they're using now to hide from the IDF. The pipes for pumbling were used for missile launchers. Instead of using the international aid to develop their community, they used it for terrorist purposes. At this point, capitulating for the Hamas' demands will not stop the hatred, because they were hateful long before October 7th. Israel saw that the only way to stop the future attacks is in a pragmatic way: destroying Hamas and its military e political capabilities, and making sure no future Gazan government shall have the military capability to attack Israel. How the're gonna do it? I don't know, but they're adamant in doing it.
36 000 innocent civilians is not collateral damage. Its purposefully murdering innocent Palestinian people, its genocide and all the evidence backs it up. It is not Hamas who’s bombing refugee camps, hospitals, schools, homes and any place that a Palestinian is. It is Israel. You’re good on pointing fingers but there’s zero factual evidence.
These numbers were provided by the Hamas, which have an incentive to inflate it so as to exert pressure on Israel's allies. I'm certain there's no way for anyone to provide an accurate body count of casualities in this war, as it is ongoing, and there's many bodies that might be under rubble. And as I said: it's a Hamas tactic to use their citizens as human shields whenever possible. When they brag about the number of casualities, deep down they like when there's more dead citizens, because for them it only represent necessary sacrifices for achieving one goal: pressure Israel allie's to make Isreal stop their military advancement, so the Hamas can regroup and resume their missile strikes against Isreal territory at full force. For them this is a holy war: they just hate Isreal and want it gone. If they make Isreal back down and agree to a indefinite ceasefire, it'll signal to the other enemies of Isreal (Hezbolah, Iran...) that they're soft, and will encourage them to attack Isreal as well. Isreal is a country that's surrounded by enemies that hate it, so they were forced to invest heavily in millitary defense systems, and make millitary conscription mandatory to both genders. Israel is the only democracy in a area brimming with autocracies and teocracies.
You do realize from the moment Israel become a state, Israel has never lived in actual peace? They stole the land, displaced 750 000, murdered thousands of people. Set fires to homes, good and everything else. Placed mines so Palestinians cannot return. This “war” didn’t start on 7 October 2023 neither somewhere in 2020. It started the moment Israel decided to murder and steal everything the Palestinian people owned. The ceasefire deal is a joke to begin with. 6 weeks ceasefire and then they’ll continue bombing the entirety of Gaza again. Its needs to be permanent. Israel has to be held accountable for their actions (genocide). Israel want 100% safety? Well, should not have stolen the land, displaced thousands of Palestinian people, murdering, Apartheid system, discrimination. And for everything I say here; I can link sources if you want. It’ll be tomorrow though, not on PC. But I will if you ask me to.
I'm not extremelly familiar to the history of Isreal, but I don't think it's fair the Isrealli citizens of today pay for supposed mistakes of their ancestors from 70+ years ago. A ceasefire now would only benefit the Hamas and let them regroup with more weapons and ammo, and build new milittary outposts. I defend a indefinite ceasefire, but after Hamas is destroyed, of course. This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people. It just proves they don't care for their people, they care for power. And if by apartheid system you mean border controls, so every country has such system because no serious country allows indiscriminate entry of foreigners in its borders without aplying some criteria first. And in Isreal, 20% of the population is of Arab descent and they enjoy full citizen status. Go ask them if they're unhappy with the "Israelli regime" and if they'd rather go move to the Gaza strip.
It has nothing to do with “easy to judge”. There’s lots and lots of evidence. Documents, videos, articles and even actual ex-IDF soldiers speaking out. IDF soldiers are always “happy to trigger their gun” since day one. Not just now. Certainly soldiers are humans to but these soldiers are killing innocent civilians. They’re smiling, joking, stealing everything from the Palestinians. They’re recording themselves. The videos are all over Instagram. They let children and other people signature their bombs with cruel words like “kill them all” which I can give a source for as well. There’s in no way defending their atrocities. No matter how bad you want to. Like I said, you’re an Israel-supporter and by your other comments in others thread, a possible Zionist. I already told you; Israel is the core reason as to why Hamas even exist.
If there's any misconduct among the IDF, of couse they should be called out and disciplined. I'm not saying it is a good thing to abuse vulnerable people during a war. But, let's be honest, in all wars this kind of stuff happen. A bunch of guys are there in the open, with no law enforcement to contain them, under a high stress situation for it is a war and they might die at any moment. Of course they might regress to erratic behaviors. Maybe it's fueled by rage for their people being attacked by Hamas? Maybe they're taking out it on the citizens? I don't know. I've never been a soldier to know.
The main idea I’m trying to express is that the IDF should practice restraint where possible. If the restraint is at the cost of raising the risk of their opperations, I’d not blame them if they don’t restrain themselves as much as we, people that are safe and sound possibly in another continent, would think is reasonable.
You do realize that the IDF are a lot safer than the normal Palestinian civilians and even Hamas themselves? The IDF has billions of tanks, weapons and armory which are provided by US dollars. You are trying to justify murdering innocent civilians which is just not possible.
You cannot justify killing over 36 000 normal civillians.
I’m not aware of all the movements of the IDF. When Isreal bombs any civilian building, they always claim it was being used as a Hamas hideout or a missile launching base. If there’s civilians casualities, it’s possible the Hamas forced them to remain there to act as human shield deterrent. If not, I see no reason for Isreal to waste their bombs on buildings where there’s no terrorists hiding. For now there’s no way to confirm things one way or another. If journalists died, we can’t confirm at the moment the IDF targeted them specifically or if it’s mere casuality of war (doing journlistic work in a war zone is risky, after all).
You are not aware of the movements that have been broadcasted on almost ever news-outlet? I call that nonsense. Then again if you are not aware if it, how are even able to write and speak about the particular matter? By this sentence you are basically saying; ‘’I do not know and, I’m ignorant. But I have opinions’’.
If you see no reason for Israel to bomb buildings and innocent civillians, you are either a very ignorant person or Zionist. Mayhap both. Because Israel wants the everything that the Palestinian people once owned. That’s widely known. There’s full of evidence all over the internet.
Once again; you really need to educate yourself in the history before even writing about it.
In this case, I think it would e much easier to identify the Hamas terrorists when they’re surrounded by people of another ethinicity, and when those people would gladly point out where’s the terrorist instead of being coerced to cooperate with Hamas. So I think Israel would not bomb the hospital.
This a load of nonsense and I will tell you why; Israel shot and killed the hostages themselves.
Not only that, it’s not always easy to distinguish by ethnicity. Besides, you keep pretending as if normal civilians are cooperating with Hamas which gives you the excuse to claim that all Palestinians are Hamas.
So first; normal civilians are not Hamas. Secondly they are not cooperating with Hamas, they’re literally running away from the danger that Israel is creating. For example; Israel told the normal Palestinian refugees to seek safety in Rafah and guess? Israel bombed Rafah.
Even before the October 7th, Hamas was already fostering hatred for Israel in its population. The children were being indoctrinated from their school ages to hate Israel. Most humanitarian donations the Gazan government received from the UN and other countries they diverted for the construction of their tunnel system and missile launchers whenever possible. Contruction materials for building houses and schools were all used to build the tunnels they’re using now to hide from the IDF. The pipes for pumbling were used for missile launchers. Instead of using the international aid to develop their community, they used it for terrorist purposes. At this point, capitulating for the Hamas’ demands will not stop the hatred, because they were hateful long before October 7th. Israel saw that the only way to stop the future attacks is in a pragmatic way: destroying Hamas and its military e political capabilities, and making sure no future Gazan government shall have the military capability to attack Israel. How the’re gonna do it? I don’t know, but they’re adamant in doing it.
Yeah and why would Hamas have an immense hatred towards Israel? Let me repeat my previous comment which explains the hatred for Israel (gee, I have to once again repeat myself!);
‘’Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the horrifying things Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.’’
The children were being indoctrinated from their school ages to hate Israel
Huge claim, NO reliable source to provide. Which means, it can dismissed.
The hatred for Israel is made by Israel themselves because of what I said here above.
Contruction materials for building houses and schools were all used to build the tunnels they’re using now to hide from the IDF. The pipes for pumbling were used for missile launchers. Instead of using the international aid to develop their community, they used it for terrorist purposes
Gee, giving money to a group that wants vengeance for what Israel has done since 1948 is being used for a preparation to strike back. How surprising! (sarcasm).
You blame Hamas for everything and justify everything that Israel has been doing since 1948.
You have double standards and its shining bright for everything to read.
You want Hamas to stop existing? Give the Palestinian people their right to live, their land and normal human conditions. It’s pretty simple.
These numbers were provided by the Hamas, which have an incentive to inflate it so as to exert pressure on Israel’s allies. I’m certain there’s no way for anyone to provide an accurate body count of casualities in this war, as it is ongoing, and there’s many bodies that might be under rubble. And as I said: it’s a Hamas tactic to use their citizens as human shields whenever possible. When they brag about the number of casualities, deep down they like when there’s more dead citizens, because for them it only represent necessary sacrifices for achieving one goal: pressure Israel allie’s to make Isreal stop their military advancement, so the Hamas can regroup and resume their missile strikes against Isreal territory at full force. For them this is a holy war: they just hate Isreal and want it gone. If they make Isreal back down and agree to a indefinite ceasefire, it’ll signal to the other enemies of Isreal (Hezbolah, Iran…) that they’re soft, and will encourage them to attack Isreal as well. Isreal is a country that’s surrounded by enemies that hate it, so they were forced to invest heavily in millitary defense systems, and make millitary conscription mandatory to both genders. Israel is the only democracy in a area brimming with autocracies and teocracies
Yet when Israel gives these numbers you immediately trust them, right? While its widely known throughout the entire world that Israel has been lying over, over and over again.
These numbers are not only said by Hamas but also by other official instances.
And as I said: it’s a Hamas tactic to use their citizens as human shields whenever possible.
‘’Hamas tactic’’ when there are videos of IDF actually using Palestinian people as shields.
For them this is a holy war: they just hate Isreal and want it gone
Another blatant LIE. Hamas was literally created because they wanted to have better living conditions. They want their land, homes and human rights back.
Isreal is a country that’s surrounded by enemies that hate it
Gee, stealing land gives you enemies! Who would have thought about that?!
They decided to steal the land of the Palestinian people in 1948 which is in the Middle East. Gee, who would know that would get you surrounded by enemies?
I’m not extremelly familiar to the history of Isreal, but I don’t think it’s fair the Isrealli citizens of today pay for supposed mistakes of their ancestors from 70+ years ago. A ceasefire now would only benefit the Hamas and let them regroup with more weapons and ammo, and build new milittary outposts. I defend a indefinite ceasefire, but after Hamas is destroyed, of course. This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people. It just proves they don’t care for their people, they care for power. And if by apartheid system you mean border controls, so every country has such system because no serious country allows indiscriminate entry of foreigners in its borders without aplying some criteria first. And in Isreal, 20% of the population is of Arab descent and they enjoy full citizen status. Go ask them if they’re unhappy with the “Israelli regime” and if they’d rather go move to the Gaza strip.
I’m not extremelly familiar to the history of Isreal
This right here proved once again; You are writing ignorantly and only out of personal opinion. Anything you say can be dismissed immediately.
the Isrealli citizens of today pay for supposed mistakes of their ancestors from 70+ years ago
Happens when you stay in a land that was stolen 76 years ago and keep pretending as if it yours.
A ceasefire now would only benefit the Hamas and let them regroup with more weapons and ammo, and build new milittary outposts
It would actually benefit everyone. Israel citizens, Hamas, Palestinian people and even the entire world. But you seem to be unable to dig deeper than your personal opinion.
This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people
I will comment to this in my second comment since apparently, I cant write anymore in this one (seems I got to its limit)
This war would already be over if Hamas surrendered already, but it seems they prefer to extend the suffering of their people
This ‘’war’’ (genocide) will never be over. That’s the main issue. As long as Far-right extremsist have the power within Israel, they will continue; Apartheid system, discrimination, illegal settlements, unfair prison for Palestinians, murdering of Palestinians and everything else that has been going on for decades upon decades.
And if by apartheid system you mean border controls
Learn the history. You know, open a book instead of throwing uneducated biased personal opinions. I’m not going to educate you on 76 years of history. You got to do that yourself.
If there’s any misconduct among the IDF, of couse they should be called out and disciplined. I’m not saying it is a good thing to abuse vulnerable people during a war. But, let’s be honest, in all wars this kind of stuff happen. A bunch of guys are there in the open, with no law enforcement to contain them, under a high stress situation for it is a war and they might die at any moment. Of course they might regress to erratic behaviors. Maybe it’s fueled by rage for their people being attacked by Hamas? Maybe they’re taking out it on the citizens? I don’t know. I’ve never been a soldier to know.
Certainly and unfortunately things like these happens in every war/ genocide but that does not mean it should be allowed. It should not. Your argument here is; ‘’it happens in every war, so whatever’’. That’s such a lame and invalid excuse to justify their actions.
Maybe it’s fueled by rage for their people being attacked by Hamas
Mayhap indoctrination? Mayhap they just think ‘’we can do whatever we want because the world won’t do anything anyway’’. If they want Hamas to stop existing, attacking and all that.
Give the land back, give the Palestinian people their rights and everything else that humans normally have.
Not only that, the leader of Hamas even said they would lay down their weapons if a independent Palestinian state is established:
In the end of the day, humans are like this. If faced with the option of saving oneself or another person, most people would choose themselves (unless it's a parent/child situation). In fact, in most jurisdictions, it's not a crime killing in this circustance, but a self-preservation act that nulls any penalty.
In the case of the Israel/Hamas war, Isreal will think of their citizens first and Gaza's citizen's last. And let's not fool ourselves: the Gazan population elected the Hamas with more than 60% of votes. I bet the IDF soldiers think of that before showing excessive pity towards the Gazan population.
That is an oxymoron. Israel is a fascist settler colonial empire. Like the Nazis expansion into the East for "Lebensraum" There can be no Israeli Lebensraum without first killing the people living there.
The project cannot be finalized as long as Palestinians exist as a people, even if they are displaced. Especially not as long as the number of Palestinians alive remains significant.
But I know what's the dominant doctrine in western universities related to the Israel/Hamas war. They're mostly pro-Hamas. I know there are students that don't condone this worldview, but they're strongly penalized by peer pressure and institutional pressure (try being pro-Israel knowing your professor is pro-Hamas... Your grades will surely be affected negatively). When there's incidents of students suffering antisemitism, the administration of those universities have shown they're extremely lax on the perpetrators. It's a systemic failure in respecting different worldviews, because there's an "official" one already.
That's why I'm saying these universities have lost a lot of credibility regarding anything related to this Israel/Hamas conflict, given the pro-Hamas protests occuring in university grounds, and the lack of any condemnation by faculty staff.
When they chant "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free", what do you think they want? Israel is located between said river and sea, so they want to exterminate all Israeli so the land is all theirs. The extermination of all Jews is codified in written form in the Hamas Constitution.
If there are people there who only want to advocate for the Two State Solution for Israel/Palestine, that's a fair point to make. But when these people, knowingly or unknowingly, mix themselves with people that carry Hamas flags and chant "from the river to the sea", then they're either useful idiots, or they're pro-Hamas while using the pro-Palestine cause as a cop out.
No. What I'm saying is that the pro-Palestine protesters in the western countries are, knowingly or unknowingly, boosting the pro-Hamas message in many cases. There are probably very few (if any) pro-Palestine protests that don't include the presence of some degree of pro-Hamas (and by extension, pro-Extermination of all Jews) people. This manifests either in the form of Hamas Flags, explicit anti-Israel flags and demonstrations, or chants of "from the river to the sea".
On the other hand, the pro-Israel protests are very focused on the defense of Israel territory/citizens and anti-discrimation against people of Jewish heritage. There's no explicit call to kill/expell all Palestinians. If there is, it is very fringe and the protestors themselves would certainly eject said person from the protest. At most, the most aggressive remarks are reserved specifically to the Hamas only.
As a said, even if the professor isn't pro-Hamas, he's beholden by institutional pressure to either hide his pro-Isreal views, or be lax on the pro-Hamas views of the students. No matter the side they are, it's controversial either way. But just the pro-Hamas or Pro-Palestien side are allowed to express themselves freely without some kind of pushback or retaliation.
I don't live in the cities that have the universities that held pro-Hamas protests so I can't name them, sorry.
I'm just arriving at this conclusion because:
The main doctrine among students and faculty is being pro-Hamas, or at minimum agreeing on things like: Isreal is causing a genocide, Isreal is an apartheid state, Israel makes living in Gaza feel like an open prison, etc.
If any student goes over the line and is explicitly pro-Hamas, or advocates the extermination of all Jews ("to the river to the sea..."), harasses jewish students or blocks them from entering the building, protest in a way to disrupt the right of the non-protesting students to attend class, litter the common areas, etc. If they do this, the faculty just do nothing or reprimend them with a slap on the wrist. In other words, they condone this stuff.
The presidents of those universities often are beholden by the opinion of the pro-Hamas students. There's a famous episode where the president of Havard, Claudine Gay, when asked if “calling for the genocide of Jews” would violate the college’s code of conduct, was evasive and said "it depends on context".
And I'm sorry if I originally said they're mostly pro-Hamas. What I really meant is that they're either pro-Hamas or Pro-Palestine. If they're not, they'd fell intimidated to express their pro-Isreael opinions, just like most pro-Israel students would when they see the treatment their jewish colleagues receive, so it creates the illusion that 99% of the faculty and students are pro-Hamas or pro-Palestine, but it's the social and institutional pressure that I cited above that makes it seem so.
No, it's empirical evidence. It's a well known fact that western universities have a left-leaning bias.
And by extension, a pro-Hamas and/or pro-Palestine bias. This one is supported by the 3 points in my previous comment.
There's some variation in this. The humanities courses have a higher concentration of left-leaning individuals than other areas. But it might also be explained that the left-leaning are more vocal about their concerns. I know there's a significant silent population of students that might be right-leaning, but they just aren't interested in discussing politics in the unniverity: they just want to finish their course with the minimum trouble possible.
Again, just stating things without evidence does not make them true. You said this was a “well-known fact.” If it’s well-known, where’s the evidence? Or was that a lie?
This is just a conversation on the internet. We aren't here presenting an undergraduate thesis. I try to limit things to empirical evidence and appeal to common experiences between us so I don't have to make everyone read a huge wall of text. That's why I said we can just agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong about it. 👽
Again if it is a "well-known fact," it should take you no effort whatsoever to provide evidence for it. That's how "well-known facts" work. It's a well-known fact that the Earth is round and I can show you evidence with about two seconds of Googling.
You are unable to, which suggests you were lying about it being a "well-known fact."
Most search results confirm what I said. And remember: this is not an exact science, but a subjective assessment. Certainly there are university students that didn't notice that bias because their institution was more politically neutral, or said person was not enrolled in humanities courses so the political activism was not very close to their day-to-day lives. But, in general, the bias is real and is only getting more intense as political polarization is on the rise globally.
It's a well-known fact that the Earth is round and I can show you evidence with about two seconds of Googling.
You established that a well-known fact like the Earth being round is easy to prove in mere seconds by Googling. I did exactly what you suggested and the search results are plentiful with links in the first page confirming that there's a left-leaning bias in USA universities. In the suggested images they even list survey results showing most students lean left.
Yes. With two seconds of Googling, I can show you evidence.
Such as this:
A planet is round because of gravity. A planet's gravity pulls equally from all sides. Gravity pulls from the center to the edges like the spokes of a bicycle wheel. This makes the overall shape of a planet a sphere, which is a three-dimensional circle.
Nope. All that proves is that there are more left-wing people on university campuses. This was your claim:
It’s a well known fact that western universities have a left-leaning bias. And by extension, a pro-Hamas and/or pro-Palestine bias.
You said the universities, which indicates what is taught, not the people in those universities and what they believe.
By the way, since I didn't say it before, your implication that "Palestinian" and "Hamas" are synonymous is bigoted and if I see you say it again in this community, you will be taking a break for violating the rules.
I don't want to make it seems I'm arguing my point. We can agree to disagree, of course. Especially if, for you to be trully satisfied with my answers, it would require me to go in person to those universities and do a field research. I don't even live in the USA. 😅
"Agree to disagree" is not how it works on facts. If you cannot provide evidence for your statements, do not declare them as "well-known facts." If they are well-known, you shouldn't have to do field research.
When they chant "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free", what do you think they want? Israel is located between said river and sea, so they want to exterminate all Israeli so the land is all theirs. The extermination of all Jews is codified in written form in the Hamas Constitution.
You just love to spread immense misinformation.
You should actually educate yourself in this particular matter if you want to write and speak on the slogan. Don’t just blabber your personal opinion, give sources. Your personal opinion doesn’t matter, actual evidence does.
Not only that, do you know that Israel has made a slogan exactly like that too. So by your definition; Israel wants to exterminate all Palestinian people (and they’re currently doing so with the genocide)
If there are people there who only want to advocate for the Two State Solution for Israel/Palestine, that's a fair point to make. But when these people, knowingly or unknowingly, mix themselves with people that carry Hamas flags and chant "from the river to the sea", then they're either useful idiots, or they're pro-Hamas while using the pro-Palestine cause as a cop out.
Israel flat out said they do NOT want a two state solution.
Also explain to us; what is a Hamas flag? I have never heard about it nor seen one. I have only seen the Palestine flag. So tell us, show us and give us actual evidence with reliable sources.
You lie, spread misinformation and give ZERO reliable sources/ evidence.
You just love to spread immense misinformation. You should actually educate yourself in this particular matter if you want to write and speak on the slogan. Don’t just blabber your personal opinion, give sources. Your personal opinion doesn’t matter, actual evidence does.
According to Wikipedia article for "From the river to the sea": "Many Palestinian activists have called it "a call for peace and equality" after decades of Israeli military rule over Palestinians while for Jews it is seen as a call for the "destruction" of Israel. Islamist militant faction Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel, and the removal or extermination of its Jewish population." So it's not as clear-cut as you suggested. It says some Palestinians define is as a call for peace, but even if it was taken as such in the past, nowadays I have the impression it's mosly used as a defense of the destruction of Isreal. If it was just for the peace of Palestine, they'd use a more specific sentence because the way it's pharsed it includes the Isreal territory in their intentions of "freedom". But they want to be free from what? Free from the Israeli people presence? The article you linked kind of confirm what the Wikipedia article said: each side has an interpretation of what this sentece entails, but I'm more interested in the practical usage of the sentence today, and in my opinion it's mostly anti-Isreal.
Not only that, do you know that Israel has made a slogan exactly like that too. So by your definition; Israel wants to exterminate all Palestinian people (and they’re currently doing so with the genocide).
From the same Wikipedia article: "The Palestinian phrase has also been used by Israeli politicians. The 1977 election manifesto of the right-wing Israeli Likud party said: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."" It seems a variation from "from the river to the sea" was used by a specific Isreali right-wing party in 1977. It was strictly a position of said party in 1977, so we cannot pin it on Isreal of 2024.
Israel flat out said they do NOT want a two state solution.
In the article you linked, this is an opinion of Isreali Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after he got spooked by what occured on October 7th. Who know's what the next Prime Minister will think about it? Israel was explicitly in favor of the Two State Solution in 1937 and 1947, but in both cases the Palestinians refused. Now that missiles are launched from Palestinian territory into Isreal, don't be surprised if Isreal takes a more conservative approach in the name of its national security.
Also explain to us; what is a Hamas flag? I have never heard about it nor seen one. I have only seen the Palestine flag. So tell us, show us and give us actual evidence with reliable sources.
According to Wikipedia article for "From the river to the sea": "Many Palestinian activists have called it "a call for peace and equality" after decades of Israeli military rule over Palestinians while for Jews it is seen as a call for the "destruction" of Israel. Islamist militant faction Hamas used the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to claim that it advocates for the dismantling of Israel, and the removal or extermination of its Jewish population." So it's not as clear-cut as you suggested. It says some Palestinians define is as a call for peace, but even if it was taken as such in the past, nowadays I have the impression it's mosly used as a defense of the destruction of Isreal. If it was just for the peace of Palestine, they'd use a more specific sentence because the way it's pharsed it includes the Isreal territory in their intentions of "freedom". But they want to be free from what? Free from the Israeli people presence? The article you linked kind of confirm what the Wikipedia article said: each side has an interpretation of what this sentece entails, but I'm more interested in the practical usage of the sentence today, and in my opinion it's mostly anti-Isreal.
So first of all Wikipedia is not reliable at all. Anyone can edit Wikipedia pages. Here’s a link to Wikipedia’s own page about it. That said; where’s the article? You quote it but don’t give the actual link to it. That’s just air basically.
Once again your impression and opinions do not matter. Actual evidence does. What you think or get the impression out of it doesn’t mean anything. What the phrase stands directly, how was meant from the beginning does.
You’re not qualified for political discussions if, you cannot write without your personal opinions mixed in. Because that basically means, your entire discussion is biased.
But they want to be free from what? Free from the Israeli people presence?
This sentence right here just proved that you clearly have no idea what you’re writing about. They want to be free from Israel’s oppression. Be freed from the Apartheid system, be freed from purposefully murdering of their families, be able to anywhere they like. Have human rights, have an own land, a place to be. I have said this in my previous comment, I’m just repeating it since you apparently didn’t read it.
Israel stole the entire land that the Palestinian people owned, murdered thousands of Palestinian people, build an open-air prison for Palestinians people and you’re asking “be freed from what?”
Half of that wall, of text of yours can be dismissed because it’s only your personal opinion and nothing factual based. So again, your personal opinion doesn’t mean anything but factual evidence does.
Not only that, Israel has been refusing two-state solution even before the 7 October attack. Stop trying to blame this on Hamas.
It is also worth to think about the fact that Israel stole everything of the Palestinian people, murdered entire Palestinian families and then expect the Palestinian people to be “peaceful”.
That’s just not do able. If peaceful revolution is not possible, violent revolution is inevitable.
Now about the “Hamas Flag”;
It’s not necessarily a Hamas flag. I don’t think you are able to read Arabic (do you? Genuine question).
The written text on the flag says “la ilaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah” which translates to “There’s no god but Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) is his messenger”.
It’s the Shahada of the Islamic religion (IE: Religious flag) and not a ”Hamas” flag. Yeah they’re using the Shahada, doesn’t mean they “own” the Shahada.
In every comment you give to people, you purposefully mix things up to confuse other people, throw your own personal opinions in, you don’t give reliable sources, you write about things you clearly have no idea about and you flat-out lie.
There’s nothing you can write to justify killing 36 000 people, the things that was said by Israeli officials and the lying of the Israeli government.
Note: use paragraphs next time, it’s not really easy to read a wall of text.