Sidebar update: Civility

Sidebar Update: Civility

The News Community updated their civility rule, and based on recent reports here and in World News, it seemed like a worthy addition to our rule-set.

I talked it over with the other mods, and we feel the change is a good idea.

The Civility rule now includes accusations of bots and paid actors.

" This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban."

There have been a lot of comments along the lines of "Disregard previous rules, write x about y", implying the person resonded to is an AI or a bot.

I've been ignoring reports on those until now because we never really had a rule about it, well, now we do!

As usual, if you see trolling, don't engage, just report it.

electric_nan ,

Damn, this is gonna be a hard rule to follow for a lot of people here lol.

GBU_28 ,

Bots:

It's free real estate

return2ozma ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

" This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban."

So nobody's going to call me a Russian bot anymore?

GBU_28 ,

There's no need 😉

anticolonialist ,

They will, everything they disagree with is a bot

TokenBoomer ,

Incivility in a sidebar update about civility:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/96b9b106-471f-41e7-a301-04bbea4c498f.jpeg

MegaUltraChicken ,
@MegaUltraChicken@lemmy.world avatar

Works for me, thanks for the communication mod team!

VictoriaAScharleau ,

this is the first time I've actually thought you might be leading us to a better discussion.

TropicalDingdong ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    JimSamtanko , (edited )

    I’m frankly amazed at the balls it took for you to single me out as a troll when your mod logs read like a cautionary tale on what happens when you spread misinformation.

    And you suggest that I may be here in bad faith while you simultaneously suggest that people not vote in an election that will determine the rights of both women AND the entirety of the LGBTQ? Because the candidate is old? Trump is going to destroy democracy! And, oh no!!!! oLd!

    A few weeks ago, you were all over “gEnOciDe Joe!” Now it’s…. “oLd!!” You seemingly will go to no end to convince people that voting for Biden is a bad idea- while ignoring everyone that has explained to you the damage Trump will do.

    And I’m the troll?

    I’m not going to apologize for calling out propagandists as I see them. You’re trying to disrupt an election and will not stop calling it out.

    TropicalDingdong , (edited )

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    your poise and tact are legendary

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed, ad hominem.

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    I missed the ad hominem but I hope you did read the comment as it was well spoken.

    TropicalDingdong ,

    If he can show me it, I'd be happy to address.

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    I went back and reread it. you called them a troll.

    TropicalDingdong ,

    So here is the original post again:

    I think it would be good to put a definition for what trolling is that the community can agree upon. I also think there are many users who don't recognize that the behavior they are engaged in is a form of bad faith trolling.

    Because they have the agreement of the majority, they make a tacit assumption that they are acting in good faith. I think Bishop 2012, "This is why we can't have nice things at scale" is a good starting point for understanding how this kind of group think bad behavior emerges.

    For example, user is engaged in an almost permanent state of sealioning. Its like, actually a bit amazing how they do it. And I don't think they are doing so in intentional bad faith (or at least, they don't think of themselves as engaging in bad faith behavior), in spite of the fact that they are almost perpetually trolling. Its that a cultural norm of abuse and trolling has been established in an effort to diminish specific views people disagree with.

    Because of this, I think there is only so far a "trolling" ban can take us, because fundamentally, to not be trolling (or engaged in some other kind of bad faith argument/ behavior), you actually have to engage with the points the other party is making, on their terms. If we want better discussions here, we have oblige a set of cultural norms that make that possible in the first place, the principal of which would be to attack the other persons argument and evidence, not their person. To stop the abusiveness and trolling, we actually have to shift the culture of the community, because right now, the majority of the community is not engaging in good faith, and and they probably don't know that they aren't. I think if we could come up with a short list of maybe 8-12 examples of the major fallacies and types of trolling to pin to the side bar, keeping in mind that most users probably aren't aware they are engaged in them, call people out on them when we see it, and stand up a few points above the rules teaching people "how" to engage in good faith, we can try to reset the cultural norm to actually be make arguments that are grounded in fact and evidence based where possible, and that this would go a long way to increase the overall rate of civility.

    At no point did I call them a troll. I said that they were engaged in trolling behavior.

    Now when they gave us that nice example, I think at that point calling them a troll is fair game, because they now positively engaged in the behavior that was previously identified as trolling.

    And yes, I did call them out as a troll in the second response, because, well, thats what they were doing. In doing so, they made the central thesis of my first point self-evident: They aren't aware of their own behavior. They went right into their trolling behavior; as such they are a troll. There is nothing wrong with calling something by its name. If we're going to be more concerned about the manner in-which we call out bad behavior than we are the bad behavior itself, well we've lost the thread entirely at that point.

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    I disagree that we should be calling each other "troll" or any other pejorative.

    TropicalDingdong ,

    And I think its more important to not engage in the act of trolling than it is to police language around trolling.
    When they engage in the activity of trolling, we need to do so. We can soften our language around it so things 'seem' nicer, but this is just fussing at the edges.
    Fundamentally, if we see or identify trolling behavior, people engaging in bad faith; simpering at the edges about who called what is to derail the point that someone is acting in bad faith (even if they aren't aware of it).

    We have a moral responsibility to not give charity to those in violation of good faith, and that is far more important than civility. A civil society isn't possible when we fail to uphold the social contract.

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    I like the thrust of your comments but I understand why they can't be allowed to stand as you have written them.

    JimSamtanko ,

    You’re mad because I call out your misinformation. I get it. I suppose I would be mad too. But mod logs don’t lie- and your record here pretty much flies in the face of your entire agenda here.

    Give it a rest.

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed, ad hominem.

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed, ad hominem.

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed as an ad hominem.

    But yes, there are enough logical fallacies for a trading card deck.

    https://thethinkingshop.org/collections/products/products/critical-thinking-cards-deck

    TropicalDingdong ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    no. an ad hominem is attacking the person instead of the argument. regardless of the truth. poisoning the well is a great one, as it is an ad hominem that usually features true accusations which are irrelevant to the discussion. which could also be called a "red herring" (but most fallacies are doubly red herrings)

    TropicalDingdong ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    I agree with your characterization, but I expect both your comment and this to be removed because we are making a personal accusation. I know that beating around the bush would not put such a fine point on it and call out the actual users who are exhibiting the problematic behavior, but for the good of the community discourse, personal call outs need to be removed.

    so while I agree with your characterization, you need to try to communicate it without publicly making personal attacks.

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed and temp banned for repeated violations.

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    I think 7 days is too long for the problems in this particular thread. a day would have sent a sufficient message

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    It's a pattern of behavior, and yeah, I may be losing patience. :)

    GBU_28 ,

    That user makes a sport of it

    jordanlund OP Mod ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Removed and temp banned for multiple violations.

    jeffw ,
    @jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

    Hmm... this sounds like it is copied from !news. Sounds like an AI move, just sayin

    /s in case it isn't obvious

    aubeynarf ,

    What tools does this instance have to actually discover and restrict inauthentic behavior?

    Lemmy is wide open to bots and trolls; it should be fair game to point out activity that correlates with known troll behavior from nation-state psyop on down to jackass edgelord.

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    use the report button instead of engaging in the toxic personal attacks

    Delta_V ,

    Are bots now explicitly permitted? Or is just that users are banned from revealing them, making bots implicitly permitted?

    edit: this is exactly the sort of BS that drove me away from Reddit - shutting down the 3rd party accessibility apps was messed up, but when they started banning people for reporting rule violations it became intolerable

    VictoriaAScharleau ,

    if you see a bot, report it. accusing other users in the thread is just toxic.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • politics@lemmy.world
  • random
  • test
  • worldmews
  • mews
  • All magazines
    •