Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry ( apnews.com )

A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.

The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.

Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.

But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.

“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”

MagicShel ,

A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.

Hyperbole as rhetorical device is getting exhausting and makes me extremely skeptical.

art ,
@art@lemmy.world avatar

Just want to remind people that BYD has been in the American market since 2011. They've been involved with building industrial vehicles like trucks and buses.

RandomGuy79 ,

I don't even like buying Chinese shoes because they fall apart before the season ends. Do these shoes spy on us as well ?

ansiz ,

I've seen enough QA issues with most of the Chinese EVs I would highly doubt any of them make it to the USA for consumer sale at any scale. Some have overheating issues, panels fall off, cheap seat belts, uncomfortable seats, sizing issues (too small for larger Americans), goofy AC vents that blow weak when pointed downward and high when pointed at your face but don't allow for other adjustments.

Ozone6363 ,

1000% this.

This article is fuckin ridiculous. There hasn't been a Chinese auto manufacturer that is even CLOSE.

GoofSchmoofer ,
@GoofSchmoofer@lemmy.world avatar

I mean at those prices you don't expect too much quality. Unlike Teslas that are poorly built but priced like the aren't

art ,
@art@lemmy.world avatar

BYD has been making buses and work trucks for the US market for years. I've only had a ride on a few BYD buses, but they seem to be quality.

Darkscryber ,

A electric car that is not a SUV? I am in!!! Here in Canada the only option for EV are Prius and SUV. No small EV car under 20k. I say bring them on!! Otherwise I will continue to buy juices from arabian country.

m13 ,

Americans forced the world into the capitalist system, and now they don’t like it when China does capitalism. Why are they so afraid of the free market?

ChonkyOwlbear ,

It's easy to build a cheap car when you ignore the human rights of your workers and the environmental damage of your production process.

Numenor ,

Where is your evidence of these claims

ChonkyOwlbear ,

I've been online long enough to know a sealion is coming when I see one. Not engaging.

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Riiight. Running from providing actual proof isn't the own you think it is.

curiousaur ,

Leverage your precious free market capitalism and compete, assholes. It's not a threat, it's an opportunity.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

So, there's a guy Silicon Valley Billionaire named Peter Thiel who released a book back in 2014 called "Zero to One", in which he advocates for the monopoly system and claims any good businessman ultimately seeks to corner the market.

The US car market has been consolidating over the last 40 years, in an effort to cartelize and ultimately monopolize the automotive industry. We've passed a host of regulations and taxes that compel foreign manufacturers to build and assemble cars domestically, to partner with US car firms, and to absorb parts of the market American firms don't want to occupy (US firms have functionally given up making small cars - almost everything is a truck or an SUV now). And we've unleashed our investment banks on East Asian industries, guaranteeing financial control of the largest firms in Korea, Japan, The Phillipines, and Taiwan via our international system of credits and debits.

The goal was never free markets, it was captured revenue streams. As we enter a new high surveillance age, vehicles are increasingly part of the always-on Internet Of Things information network used to continuously monitor anyone with enough money to afford a cellular device.

Excising firms like Huawei, ByteDance, and now BYD from the US marketplace is about cementing that captured state of the American economy and tightening the surveillance network. These are absolutely perceived of as threats, because they don't integrate into our controlled networks. Until Chinese businesses are willing to submit to Five-Eyes surveillance and the Chicago School Economics of the New York banks, they're not welcome in our country.

homesweethomeMrL ,

China: offers affordable EV

US Auto: NOoooooooooooooo!!

mox ,

I won't defend the US auto industry, but there are issues in play here that might not be obvious. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance

AA5B ,

Those are just excuses:

  • Dumping: US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now, with the excuse of combatting dumping. They have a grace period to catch up, but instead they’re backing off, retreating into their shells. We’re spending hundreds of billions of dollars to give them a chance to compete fairly and they’re throwing it away. I’ll have sympathy if they at least try.
  • Surveillance: US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now. You not only have no privacy, they commonly have cameras inside and can control your vehicle remotely. Those Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection. It’s not that I’m not afraid of Chinese surveillance devices but that I’m also afraid of US corporate surveillance devices. Let a have some actual privacy protections we can apply equally and fairly to all of them
mox ,

Those are just excuses

They might be used as excuses by a complacent industry, but they are not just excuses. They are also valid reasons for concern, and would still be so even if not used as talking points for Detroit lobbyists.

US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now

Regardless of that, China's government has spent more than a few years subsidizing products and services in order to make their exports dirt cheap abroad, eventually making other nations dependent on them. (See also: the Belt and Road Initiative.) This fits the same pattern, and would still be a problem even if US auto industry protectionism didn't exist.

US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now.

Agreed, but once again, that doesn't invalidate the problem that I mentioned. A foreign adversary having deep, real-time access to the nation's infrastructure, traffic patterns, sensitive information revealed through conversations and cameras, etc. is a larger problem than the personal privacy issues that already exist domestically.

Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection.

The difference lies in where the collected information goes. That might not matter to some people on a personal level, but on a national scale, handing all that info to an adversary nation is cause for concern.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

a threat to US auto industry? You promise? Cus US auto industry is a climate killing powerhouse of gas guzzling SUV's. Any politicians wanting to pretend to be capitalist, or to be in favor of the environment, let me buy this car.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The bigger issue is the U.S. auto dealership industry.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/11/09/car-dealerships-ev-sales/

If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done? Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?

Postmortal_Pop ,

OK but let's talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

How do you, an average American, purchase an anti-worker product created by an adversary government? Simple, you move to China along with the rest of the American CEOs.

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Anti worker. Riiight.

That's just you speaking the Big Three's mantra. If they'd gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn't need Big Brother to run to their aid.

This is no different than what happened in the 70's, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it's time they did.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

Anti worker. Riiight.

Are you seriously trying to make the claim that a Chinese auto worker is doing as well as a UAW member? If you are I want proof, if not then what are you talking about?

If they’d gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn’t need Big Brother to run to their aid.

You realize it's "cheap" in China because their Government subsidizes it and the manufacturers abuse their employees, right?

This round, it’s time they did.

I have no love for the American Auto Industry but this idea that BYD or any other Chinese "New Energy" vehicle is competing on anything like a level playing field is ludicrous. They are cheap because they pay their workers like dogshit, they treat their workers like dogshit, they have near zero environmental safety regulations, and they have near zero environmental regulations hell. 2/3rds of their electricity is produced by burning coal!

Lusting after a cheap BYD product just because you despise American Auto Manufacturers is literally cutting of your own nose in order to spite your face.

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

This isn't about technology at all. It's about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don't get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The higher labor cost is also required because the standard of living is completely different. People in NA can't work for Chinese wages and survive. And if you want to create a race to the bottom, that's anti-worker. The shareholder class of the Big Three is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there's much more balance between them and workers.

Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members. I don't think many would have a problem with BYD building NA factories, especially if unionized by the UAW.

@Buelldozer is right, he's just being extra spicy about it.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well

UAW labor doesn't cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.

That's before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.

People in NA can’t work for Chinese wages and survive.

That's because they don't have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54

That's why Chinese labor is cheaper.

Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.

Toyota plants aren't unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

@Buelldozer is right, he’s just being extra spicy about it.

You're darn right I'm being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.

It's astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It's disgustingly short sighted and selfish.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you'll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.

shininghero ,

I don't see a problem here. If the US auto makers are so worried, they should buy a few of them, copy their secrets, and sell them at a marked down price.
Turnabout is fair play, after all.

vividspecter ,

They'd prefer to sell you a giant SUV or truck with massive profit margins and so they can continue to flout emissions standards.

A_A ,
@A_A@lemmy.world avatar

Wikipedia doesn't have an article in English but does have one in French :
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull
Speed, max : 130 km/h
Range : 305 km with 30 kWh sodium? bat. pack,
... 405 km with 38 kWh Lithium bat. pack
Lower cost sodium ion (?) battery tech.
https://www.moniteurautomobile.be/actu-auto/nouveaux-modeles/byd-seagull-11000-et-des-batteries-sodium-ion.html
Electric motor : TZ180XSH (permanent magnet synchronous for higher efficiency)
Kerb weight : 1,160–1,240 kg

vividspecter ,

Yes it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull

Might be a connectivity issue on your end (or the mobile link playing up).

A_A ,
@A_A@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks, I put a strike through over the offending part.

TigrisMorte ,

Cars which won't pass inspection in the US and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.

TheUncannyObserver ,

They might not pass inspection, I don’t know. But that’s only in states with inspections. Not all states have those.

TigrisMorte ,

Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, 'no threat'.

TheUncannyObserver ,

California is the largest economy in the United States, and one of the largest in the world. It’s also the one with the largest market for EVs in the US. As an added bonus, it’s very conveniently positioned on the west coast, with easy access to shipping lanes from China. And finally, it’s probably the state that’s least likely to care if a US auto maker on the other side of the nation is struggling. Only fifteen states in the US require inspections, and California isn’t one of them. In fact, the only state that isn’t on the east coast that requires an inspection is Texas. All other states have nothing but emissions tests, if that, and any EV would be excluded from those, for obvious reasons.

Buelldozer ,
@Buelldozer@lemmy.today avatar

Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, ‘no threat’.

You don't live in reality.

vividspecter ,

and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.

The export model, the Dolphin Mini, is expected in Europe in 2025.

TigrisMorte ,

When I post a comment that mentions Europe I keep that in mind.

Windex007 ,

Are you suggesting that there is a material difference of minimal testing standard between the EU and the USA?

Halosheep ,

Capital interests might have something to say about it in the US. No way they're letting the government allow those in.

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