About the bear...

So, I'm just assuming we've all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it.
The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of "You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself." which results in endless comments of the "Akchully... according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to..." kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn't lead to good places.
Maybe, and I'm open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: "We are scared of unknown men."
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn't mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it's not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?

Allero ,

As one commenter stated perfectly well, the problem with "man or bear" posts is that in subtext it introduces the hostility and division towards men.

It's not just women discussing their fears, it's women signaling "men are more dangerous than bears".

And this rightfully insults and angers many men, as it is a direct attack based on a wide immutable identity that omits any nuance.

Such posts do not promote any understanding of the situation, do not explore any root causes, and, from what I've gathered, comment threads are full of people telling men to shut up, either because "it's not about them" or because "women's safety are more important than men's feelings" (as if those posts promote women safety).

This is not alright.

JayDee ,

Seeing all these comments that actually get it gives me hope for us dudes. I interact with so many dudebro types at work, and only have so much energy. And then coming onto Lemmy and seeing the same shit - it gets demoralizing real quick.

We gotta get dudes out of their own heads somehow - make them actually think about how they're affecting those around them, and get them to expand the number of ways they positively affect their local sphere and minimize the negative ways.

pmk OP ,

There is hope, I think. I wanted to have sort of a meta-discussion about the question from a mens lib point of view. Like, this thing is circulating, it seems to be making many people upset, what is a healthy way to interpret or react to it?

JayDee ,

I think it's to have the conversation with those close to us
that felt offended in a measured, methodical fashion. I find that it often seems completely foreign for some of the guys I've talked to put themselves into someone else's shoes.

It is a slog quite often, and I think that there is some kind of training out there for having these kinds of conversations.

As always, it's about talking to these people without getting them offended. I agree with other leftists that it's absolutely exhausting - it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes. I still try and talk them through it when I can.

pmk OP ,

it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes.

A part of this could be to recognize that they too might be trying to communicate something, wanting people to listen. The stalemate of mutual lack of listening. It's really a tricky, circular thing, and probably it's hard to just say "shut up and listen" to either side, when a precondition for listening is having trust that the other one will listen too.
I'm interested in increasing this trust between people. I also recognize that there is a level of feeling dismissed within me that makes me care less about others, and I assume that others could have that too.
If we could figure out a way to be at least a net positive in building trust and listening, then, well, step by small step, reinforcing the mutual feeling of trust, that would be good.
But sometimes it just feels impossible.

kent_eh ,

What do I think?

It's fiction.

Don't read too much into it.

darkphotonstudio ,

I'm a cis het man, and I'd rather be stuck in a forest with a bear than a strange man.

Adramis ,

How is the appropriate answer not to just kill yourself because no matter what you do, you're going to be scaring someone just for existing?

I feel like a product of a bygone era that should just...not exist anymore. Existing as a 'good man' doesn't do any good.

pmk OP ,

That can never be the appropriate answer. I'm sorry if you sometimes feel like that. It can really feel like a situation with no way to win. Perhaps it's not about winning. In this case, something is being communicated. I bet that there are different things being communicated by different people, but using the same words. Someone might be trying to say "things in my past has made it difficult for me to trust men." Someone else might want to be edgy because they enjoy "kicking upward". We don't know. On the internet, the loud edgy people rule. In real life, most women I've actually talked to are much more understanding and willing to see the nuances and how complicated things can be. If the internet people are getting to you, a good exercise can be to talk to real people more. They don't want you dead. They probably want good interactions. Maybe every good interaction makes their fear diminish just a little.

CautiousCharacter ,

Please don't do that. All humans are products of a bygone area. We have imperfect minds and bodies that evolved to solve problems that aren't really relevant anymore. But hopefully you can find some kind of peace inside that existence. You don't have to be defined by other people's prejudice toward you.

Have you tried therapy? I had to try multiple therapists before finding someone that worked for me, but I'm so happy I went through the process.

JayDee ,

It doesn't really matter if you scare someone you don't know. They don't know you either. Ultimately it's reasonable to be uncomfortable around strangers.

If you still scare people even after interacting with them, don't take it personally. Lots of people have biases and past traumatic experiences that might paint you any which way.

Just focus on being kind and liked by the communities you're in, and don't take a defeatist mentality over someone being scared of you at first.

p5yk0t1km1r4ge , (edited )
@p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world avatar

As someone who has suffered heavy physical and verbal abuse [including threats of false rape and even an instance where she said she'd hurt herself and tell everyone including the police I was the one who did it to her] from a female for 3 years and has since developed severe mental and trauma issues from it, if I said:

"If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn't accuse me of raping it if I ignored it."

How would you feel? See, I've said this before, and I just got downvoted to oblivion because guys can't be abused! It's discrimination against women! It's sexist. How dare you not support women! It invalidates their feelings and experience with abuse! Statistically, its more likely to happen to females, so we're more understanding with their situations! HOWEVER, these same people are 100% all in on dogpiling any male with the audacity to say, "This is offensive. Not all men are like that!", and they're all too happy and eager to invalidate male experiences simply because it's "Not as common."

Which makes it pretty obvious at this point, to me at least, that comments like this stupid "bear" comment serve only one purpose: to shit on men, simply to shit in them. It's MISANDRY but nobody wants to talk about it, because fuck men, we don't deserve support, we don't deserve validation and we don't deserve any rights. As men, we are BIG and STRONG and TOUGH and SCARY. How DARE we want to be met equally when it comes to being abused. Just shake it off!

And there they are. The downvotes. Thanks for literally proving my point, folks.

gap_betweenus ,

“If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”

Seem like you are actually in a place to understand from your own experience what women are trying to communicate with that whole bear thing. Next step would be to try to have an empathic connection instead of a defensive one. The anger and frustration are not directed at you as an individual but are an expression of experiences, those nuances are often lost in online, non personal communication. What helps is to have more personal communication, better in an offline environment.

Akisamb , (edited )

I also have a similar experience, I was mugged at knife point and spit on by two adolescents. After that I was jumpy around groups of teens.

That said , I do not think my fear of teens was rational, neither was it healthy. Only a small minority of teens will mug people. Fearing a whole group for the actions of the few is in human nature, but it is something we must fight against.

I mean what is the end goal if women are in fear of men ? You can probably reduce violent crime even more, but it remains a rare event. Only 31 out of 1000 people were victims of a violent crime in the UK in 2010. If that doesn't work, what remains? Sex segregation ?

gap_betweenus ,

So you think it will help to just tell folks to not be afraid? How did you overcame your fear? What if similar experiences happened to your and your friends more than once?

On personal level, in my experience it's best to validate someones emotions and then help them work through them if they wish so and are ready. On societal level it's another question on how to teach people more empathy and to respect for others - and at least in my opinion we already came quite a way.

Vivendi ,
@Vivendi@lemmy.zip avatar

Preach brother, preach

p5yk0t1km1r4ge ,
@p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world avatar

It's a hill I will fucking die on.

AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

I know more than one of these men that women would rather not take a chance with... The JR/AT/JP/TradWife/dudebro types. When I asked my girlfriend about the choices, she chose 'bear' immediately, and specifically called out someone we knew, saying, "Would YOU want me to encounter <dudebro> in the forest if I didn't know him?" And she was right -- I'd prefer she choose the bear...

And that's tragically fucking sad that someone I know is so far down the 'dudebro' rabbit hole that I wouldn't leave my GF alone with him in a compromised position.

Corkyskog ,

Locker rooms have taught me a sizeable percent of men are literal monsters. Like maybe 1 in 10, if even a fraction of the shit I over hear is true.

blazeknave ,

If you've spent any time alone in the woods, any gender would fear running into a sketchy person. I've had bear encounters. Only humans have made me wish I had a firearm to protect myself alone in the woods. I'm a man that can handle himself, and I still treat strange men as a threat.

MystikIncarnate ,

Bluntly, I wouldn't want to have some lady I've never met, trapped in the forest with me either. Not because I'm a bad person, far from it.

I feel like I'd be rather handy if I was lost in a forest, but she wouldn't know that.

Fact is, any lady weighing in on the discussion doesn't have any reasonable guarantee or even a reasonable probability of getting someone half as helpful as me, and a nontrivial chance of getting a date rapist, so I get it. The worst that a bear would do is kill and eat them, and if they're lucky, it'll happen in that order. There are fates worse than death.

I don't take any offense at someone answering "bear". At all. It's an age old question, of the devil that you know, versus the devil that you don't. Sure, there's a non-zero chance you'll end up in the woods with bear grylls (or someone with a similar skillset), or Mr. Rogers (or similarly kind person), but the far more likely scenario is not that.

It's not a statement against me personally as a male, it's a statement about the average man. If that offends you, there's a good chance that you're part of the problem.

I'm not here to judge. So I'll let you decide for yourself.

The fact is, unknown men is basically a gamble most aren't willing to make. What can we do about it? Probably somewhere between Jack and squat. Unless we can "fix" the socially inept and creepy men, as well as the rapists, would-be (opportunistic) rapists, date rapists, and just all around shitty men, pretty much all at once, this stereotype isn't going anywhere. Just be the change you want to see in the world, and try to encourage your brothers to be better.

Simulation6 ,

I don’t understand why this is a problem. I would choose an animal over a human, man or woman.

Lettuceeatlettuce ,
@Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml avatar

This whole scenario makes total sense to me. Try to put yourself in the role of the woman:

Man vs bear, random encounter alone in the woods. Both can easily overpower and harm you.

With the bear, you know it's one or the other, it either is going to be scared off by you yelling at it, or it's not and it will very quickly kill you.

The man, if he intends no harm, cool. But if he does intend harm, it can be impossible to tell. He can lie to you, appear friendly and helpful, all the while plotting to harm you horrifically. The bear can have no such malice.

The bear will not target you because of your race, sex, political views, gender identity, sexuality, or nationality.

The bear won't pretend to be your friend to lure you into a sense of false security. The bear won't become enraged at something you say and all of a sudden turn on you.

The bear has no fragile sense of ego that it will attempt to assert if it feels you "wounded" it in some trivial way.

A bear cannot be brainwashed by toxic propaganda or cultural norms about gender roles. A bear will never have any sense of sexual entitlement.

A bear won't drug you and assault you, a bear won't call its friends to join in when you are vulnerable. A bear won't hold blackmail against you after getting you drunk and manipulating you.

If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.

MareOfNights ,

It would probably be pretty effective on men too, tho XD

Classy ,

If all women had to do 99.99% of the time to scare away dangerous men was stand up tall, puff our their chests, and yell loudly, I doubt we would be having this conversation.

Not a joke, actually. By and large, predatory men prey upon weak women. Women who are afraid of conflict, afraid of drawing attention to themselves. Gavin DeBecker, author of The Gift of Fear, wrote that one of the greatest things you can do in the case of being attacked is to very loudly and boldly reject their advances. "I TOLD YOU NO, LEAVE ME ALONE." The vast majority will run away because they can't be stealthy.

UnpluggedFridge ,

There is a book I will mention that will get me downvoted to oblivion, but it is very relevant to this discussion. It is called "White Fragility" and it discusses the following phenomenon: When vulnerable groups express criticism of societal problems, individuals will take that criticism personally and redirect the conversation towards their feelings. This has the effect, whether intended or otherwise, of shutting out the voice of the vulnerable group and forestalling any meaningful change. The book identifies this phenomenon in discussions of race, but I hope you can identify the parallels.

HauntedCupcake ,

Does it suggest any solutions? I totally see the parallel

kat_angstrom ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    TubularTittyFrog ,

    If you were a person you'd be allowed to be upset. But you're a man, men aren't people. They don't have feelings, only women do.

    gap_betweenus ,

    How about being better and validating others persons feelings instead of cheap sarcasm?

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    Dude, get some therapy. The world isn't as harsh and bleak as you imply, and if your life experience hasn't already shown you that, you need to stop throwing yourself a pity party and start working on getting better so you can enjoy your life.

    TubularTittyFrog ,

    My life experience has show me people would rather scream and insult others than recognize and validate experiences and opinions that differ from theirs.

    case in point, your comment.

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    You've got 25 downvotes. Take the hint: Your 'hot take' is crap, and you should work on getting better.

    All men have had shitty things happen to them. All of us have been treated unfairly. How we pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off matters.

    pmk OP ,

    What you write resonates with how I feel too. It's not fair, is it? I think there's a discussion that must happen, in the future. But right now, it's too inflamed, it's not possible. Then the question is, how do we get there? Can we get there without losing ourselves?

    UnpluggedFridge ,

    You hate the "man or bear" conversation. Imagine how much women must hate it, knowing that you and other "good men" will bemoan their feelings as soon as they express them. Think about how chilling that is to their concerns; how they have to walk on eggshells even around "good men" when they want voice legitimate concerns.

    You know who won't get offended? The bear.

    kat_angstrom ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    1. Bears are omnivores and mostly eat plants/seeds/berries.
      https://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/food-diet/

    2. Few bears hunt mammals (but we've all seen photos of them hunting fish) but when they do, they hunt young deer/elk/moose, and are more likely to scavenge winter kills or fresh kills made by others (wolves/big cats/etc.).

    AnotherDirtyAnglo ,

    The solution to this problem is to be 'better than average' and bring up the average by leading by example.

    kat_angstrom ,

    Hear hear

    better_world ,

    In corporate contexts, black women feel about white men the way that women felt about bears in the first question... and this prompted a similarly negative reaction from white women.

    HelixDab2 ,

    maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.”

    It's not unknown men, it's alone with men, period. Most sexual assaults are not stranger-rapes; they're sexual assaults being committed by a person that was known to the victim. Often it's an intimate partner, a date, a close friend, or someone that they went to class/church/etc. with. If people you know aren't safe, then how could you trust strangers?

    gimpchrist ,
    @gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean in that case No One Is Safe

    HelixDab2 ,

    No one alone with no witnesses, at least. And there's the issue, isn't it? It's not, "would you rather be in a crowded bar with a mix of men and women, --or-- would you rather be in a crowded bar full of bears".

    mrcleanup ,

    Yeah, I think that's the point. If you feel unsafe long enough you become willing to risk the bear. At least it's a different danger.

    TubularTittyFrog ,

    Strangers are more statistically safe.

    Also, most folks are horrible judges of character and intention. Scumbags are usually the most charming, outgoing, and well-liked people, and yet most people think the awkward weirdo in the corner bothering nobody is the 'threat'.

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