Skill ( lemmy.dbzer0.com )

Ever seen someone doing their "unskilled job" all their life? It's just fucking magic!

The truth is that capitalists hate skilled workers, because those workers have bargaining power. This is why they love the sort of automation which completely removes workers or thought from the equation, even if the ultimate solution is multiple times more expensive or less competent than before.

Nothing is more infuriating to a boss, than a worker that can talk back with experience.

TechNerdWizard42 ,

The only idiots that repeat this, are unskilled workers who have no idea what skilled workers do. Just assume they sit in a cubicle and browse Facebook all day for big money.

As others have said, your job is unskilled if you don't need to be trained for many years to do it. A retail worker, in any position, can be trained very easily. Go from McDonald's to Starbucks to Target. Same shit, different company. But from working the till at McDonald's to being a neurosurgeon? Just a surgeon? A doctor of any kind? Yeah, no. That takes training and skill.

theareciboincident ,

You are reverting to the capitalist brainwashing that has been repeated to you for your entire life.

Nobody is arguing that a grocery stocker requires less skill and training than brain surgery. Literally nobody. And yet you people repeat this idea over and over.

I mean this not as an attack on you but a chance to expand your worldview. Cognitive dissonance hurts, and it’s important to recognize when it’s happening so you can ask further questions.

There is no such thing as an “unskilled worker” because all jobs require skill. It’s called human skill, and it’s what enables us to build societies greater than the sum of its citizens.

The logical conclusion you are suggesting is that because some humans are less capable, they don’t deserve basic needs such as a home, reliable transportation, internet, food, utilities, etc.

And if your basic premise starts with the notion that society should not be meeting the basic needs of its people, then there’s only one thing that would convince you anyway.

TechNerdWizard42 ,

Lol, you're an idiot. I am a skilled worker. You couldn't do my job to save your life.

SparrowRanjitScaur , (edited )

I think you're taking the terms too literally. Unskilled labor doesn't actually mean the jobs require zero skill. It means they can be learned and mastered relatively quickly compared to other jobs. I've had many jobs and I've done both skilled and unskilled labor.

When I worked in retail I was able to learn the job in a day and master it in a month. For my current job as a software engineer I've been learning for over a decade and there's still a lot I don't know. The technology changes rapidly and you have to be constantly learning to keep up. I'm significantly better at my job now than I was when I only had 5 years of experience.

That said, ironically it's people that work in skilled jobs that are generally the biggest advocates of social policies for the good of all. I believe everyone should have all of their basic needs met just for existing, and I would gladly pay more taxes to contribute to that goal.

CompassRed , (edited )

Nobody is arguing that a grocery stocker requires less skill and training than brain surgery. Literally nobody. And yet you people repeat this idea over and over.

We know you aren't arguing that every job requires the exact same degree of skill. All that we want to do is say that there are jobs whose required skills are quick to acquire and are therefore easily replaceable. Meanwhile, there are other jobs whose skills take a long time to acquire and are not easily replaceable. We use the term "unskilled labor" to refer to the former group and "skilled labor" to refer to the latter group as a point of convention. When people claim that unskilled labor doesn't exist, they imply that every single job requires skills that are slow to obtain and therefore every worker is difficult to replace, which is clearly false.

I mean this not as an attack on you but a chance to expand your worldview. Cognitive dissonance hurts, and it’s important to recognize when it’s happening so you can ask further questions.

Where is the cognitive dissonance? Where is the contradiction in distinguishing between jobs that require trained applicants and jobs that don't require trained applicants?

There is no such thing as an “unskilled worker” because all jobs require skill. It’s called human skill, and it’s what enables us to build societies greater than the sum of its citizens.

If you decide to use "skilled worker" to mean a worker who has a skill, then you are correct that "unskilled workers" do not exist. Unfortunately, that's not what the phrase "skilled worker" means. If that's how you use the term, then you're talking about something different to everyone else.

The logical conclusion you are suggesting is that because some humans are less capable, they don’t deserve basic needs such as a home, reliable transportation, internet, food, utilities, etc.

The logical conclusion of "unskilled labor exists" is simply that unskilled labor exists. You cannot jump from the observation that "unskilled labor exists" to the claim that "some people don't deserve their basic needs." It's a non sequitur, and it's not a position anyone in this thread would support.

And if your basic premise starts with the notion that society should not be meeting the basic needs of its people, then there’s only one thing that would convince you anyway.

This is a straw man. No one here has expressed the position that society shouldn't meet the basic needs of its people. The position you are arguing against is the position that some jobs require training before hiring and others don't. Again, that's just what people mean when they refer to skilled labor and unskilled labor.

PriorityMotif ,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

My guy do you think jumping on a teams meeting or using Excel and sending emails is difficult? Office work is unskilled work. Management is unskilled work. Having a degree didn't suddenly make you a skilled worker. Hell, even sys administrator and programming are unskilled, all you have to know is how to Google stuff. They consider car mechanics unskilled for reference.

TechNerdWizard42 ,

You're proving my point. You have NO fucking idea what skilled labour is.

I'll give you all my tools and lab equipment. Design a semiconductor. Do the electrical simulations at transistor level. Do the block level sims. Do the HDL. Do the layout. Send to fab, get it back, and now bring it up in the lab.

If I give you $1 billion if you did it yourself, you couldn't.

These are skills that take 4 to 5 years minimum of training just to look like an idiot. Then another 10 years to start getting the hang of it. By the time you're a gray beard with the mega skills and knowledge, it's been 30+ years of hard skilled work. To know where to swing that proverbial hammer.

Office work is not just excel and PowerPoint. There is office work that is skilled. And idiots who don't know what they don't know, have no idea how hard it is. And will never know, because they're too stupid to figure it out.

PriorityMotif , (edited )
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

It's probably a lot harder without any social skills, lmao

TechNerdWizard42 ,

It's basically a job requirement

feedum_sneedson ,

For a billion I would absolutely make it happen.

TechNerdWizard42 ,

And by the time you did, 20 years later, you'd be a skilled worker!

feedum_sneedson ,

Maybe we should call them extremely skilled workers.

ColeSloth ,

If you can learn your job well enough after a week or so to do it satisfactorily, it's an unskilled job.

There are definitely unskilled jobs. When I was a cart attendant at Target, I was in an unskilled job. If someone with less than two weeks training were left to do one of the jobs I have now, people would literally die.

db0 OP ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The urgency or criticality of the job is not what makes it unskilled.

One can argue that an unskilled supermarket employee can cause economic hardship, or even death (think food poisoning).

There's no such thing as an unskilled job.They all require training and in all of them you become better as you learn more about that skill. How you learn that skill, in practice or in theory is irrelevant.

Likewise, the fact that some businesses are OK to eat economic losses in bad workers and turnover in order to keep the worker dis-empowered does not make the job "unskilled"

brbposting ,

Thoughts on “[significantly] less skilled“?:

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/1c4df0ad-20c3-44bd-92f3-a0fed563ab1e.jpeg

db0 OP , (edited )
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

It's bullshit. How many people can replace the CEOs who routinely drive companies to the ground? Millions. Why were programmers badly paid when they were women-dominated but well paid when it was men?

Not a lot can easily "replace" the fast food worker who's been flipping burgers for 20 years.

This is is just apologia.

brbposting ,

Bad CEOs sure suck. It’s so important to have a good leader at the top, nonprofits will pay millions given competing private sector demand.

We wouldn’t assume driving companies into the ground isn’t always accidental, would we? Feature, not a bug, if it’s someone’s job to strip mine a company until it’s a shell. :) Of course you also have e.g. Lehman Brothers CEO denying his firm was even in trouble, or Enron’s mismanagement and the subsequent 99% loss in value.

I had to look into the early days of programming. Sounds like it was viewed as an extension of clerical work and therefore tedious. Computational demands increased, salaries increased, increased salaries brought more men into the field.

I do imagine the best 20yr burger flipper is at least X% more efficient than the best 1yr burger flipper… but X is probably not above like what, 20%? In the executive world, I’d guess the ratio is far different.

Mannn, would this all be moot if we just had Universal Basic Income? Or nearly moot. Inequality would still abound, but it’s much more acceptable if the least amongst us are comfortable and can be happy.

brbposting ,

Feel like I might take the job on the right

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/1dff8316-dc9a-4f70-8a9d-90a024b80103.jpeg

morrowind ,
@morrowind@lemmy.ml avatar

It doesn't matter if you think CEO's can be replaced easily. It matters what company boards think and it isn't many people. Also who they are willing to replace. Most of the board members probably have a close relationship with the ceo. Not so the burger flipper.

Revonult ,

I agree that all jobs need some training, but I think the termology is the real enemy. Like yes a cashier needs training but is it comparable to what is considered "skilled labor/trades" like qualified electriction, plumbers, welders, engineers, etc?

I think everyone should make a living wage and think the terminology is definitely used to oppress and divide but whenever I see these arguments it really feels like people don't see a distinction between the amout of work/time it takes to be competent in these jobs.

db0 OP ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yes, it's absolutely comparable at the same years of experience in that role. Like every other job.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Skilled labor is just compressed unskilled labor, at the end of the day labor is labor.

deaf_fish ,

So like a CEO?

ICastFist ,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

Implying CEOs learn anything

NightShot ,

And I made a career in IT from googling shit and remember the steps. Dont see the difference....

IsThisAnAI ,

Yes there are. You can be a trained retail worker in a few hours in most cases. Same with many farming jobs. Same with working the line at fast food. They still work hard and it doesn't mean they don't deserve a living wage.

Phegan ,

There is more to it than that. You may be able to be trained in a few hours, but mastery and efficiency come with time. Someone who works in retail or farming can output more productivity in a shorter amount of time than an average person. It's not about how long it takes to train someone to start the job, it's the mastery you learn over time. As you do a job longer, your productivity increases, as you move deeper and develop more skill at the job.

There is no such thing as unskilled labor.

SorryQuick ,

The thing is, “unskilled” jobs have a huge worker pool. Just about anyone can do it. Perhaps not that well, but it doesn’t matter much how well you do it for most of these jobs. Take a cashier. At best you might be twice as effective as the “normal worker”. Then compare that to what people call “skilled jobs”. Say a civil engineer. Here, your “normal worker” straight up can’t do it without years of training, and failure costs lives. For this reason, “skilled jobs” have a tiny worker pool and of those, only a few are adequate. It’s only natural that these few would ask for and receive a much larger pay. That’s not to say that “unskilled workers” shouldn’t be paid a living wage, but in a capitalist world, they will always be paid less.

chiliedogg ,

Of course people tend to get better with experience. But the retail worker who gets trained in 2 days can be reasonably good at the job within a few weeks and an expert in a few months.

Compare that to the years of training required prior to the first day on the job for an engineer or a doctor, who also get better with experience.

ShaggySnacks ,

You can be a trained retail worker in a few hours in most cases. Same with many farming jobs. Same with working the line at fast food

Retail workers have to deal with irate customers, develop product knowledge, and how to sell items.
Fast food workers need to learn how to work as a team, make the food at a consist quality, and juggle multiple orders at once.

As for farm workers, if they are working with animals: how to read the animals for their behavior, treat minor injuries of animals, and how to manage animals.

I will agree that all labor deserve a living wage.

PriorityMotif ,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

You gotta do it every day all day. Can eveyone do that? No.

IsThisAnAI ,

No you don't. The majority of retail and fast food is 40 a week. They probably have less hours than the managers because salary is cheaper than OT.

PriorityMotif , (edited )
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

Under the aca a full time employee is 30 hours or more per week, so they're going to give part time employees less than that to avoid giving them health insurance and other benefits. That's why many people have to work multiple jobs.

geissi ,

You can be a trained retail worker in a few hours in most cases.

So the job doesn't require any skill but still needs training?
And all retail workers are equally good, there is no skill difference that makes some better at the job than others?

IsThisAnAI ,

Yes, a few hours training. Easily replaced because it requires little skill. 10 year olds do this in mom and pop shops all the time. If your point is even a 10 year old has skills, then bravo, I can't muster the energy to argue over pendantic linguistics.

And no, not all workers are equally good, and that's why some companies hire these folks at higher rates and typically get reclassified as an industry subject matter expert or move on to more senior roles, again, which didn't get classified as unskilled. Or they get fired for being slower than their peers

Entropywins ,

Some stuff you learn in a day some stuff you learn in a series of days...

nulluser ,

From my experience in both the workforce and reading the news, I feel like CEO is a strong candidate for "unskilled job". I mean, when someone can simultaneously be the CEO for a major car company, a major rocket company, a brain implant company, and an infrastructure company, and be the owner, CTO and Executive Chairman of a major social media company, while still having time to spend all day xitting out their unhinged thoughts to the world, CEO has to be the easiest job in all of humanity.

Phil_in_here ,

Add 'landlord' to the list of unskilled jobs

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S ,
@PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org avatar
  • cops
Empricorn ,

It's not easy. You have to be completely dead inside and ready to fire all your coworkers at a moment's notice!

shalafi ,

You're only thinking about the biggest of the CEOs, the ones you read about in the news. 99.9% are not like that. The vast majority have to actually lead the company. Some suck, and fail. Some are awful and get by on luck for a while, then fail. Some are kickass and keep the company moving forward. Most are in between.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Skilled labor is just compressed unskilled labor, the training is just more unskilled labor unfolded over the expected working life of a worker.

Labor is labor.

db0 OP ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

No you don't understand. Fancy universities and colleges are superior to practical experience. The difference is...umm...you have to pay a lot of money to go there, so only the right people can do so, which just proves that they deserve the high paying jobs.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It isn't superior, but it takes on a different character. Labor is worth itself as an average of the totality of labor.

Training is unproductive labor that is applied over the expected working lifetime. Practical experience is a form of training, yes, but this is earned over an average as well.

Does that make sense? That's why a seasoned electrician earns more than a journeyman, despite both having training.

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Both are true. Some educations create skillful workers, just like anyone practicing a trade over time acquires skills with regards to their tasks. That being said, many degrees are just manufacturing diplomas for middle class and bourgeoisie kids who want to feel superior (and have an excuse to be rewarded as if they were).

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, supply and demand also impact the price of a type of labor, but the value created trends towards the average hour of labor.

Esqplorer ,

First, I don't think "unskilled jobs" is used correctly most of the time and agree with you 99%. My quibble is that people often say "unskilled jobs" to mean "jobs that can be learned to do adequately without prior experience." Some, not most, of the jobs you show fit that category. I wish we had a corrolary to this meme to express the benefit employers get from employees who become skilled at these roles. Purely economically, if I am a manager who can hire someone who has gained great experience and can hit the job running day 1 at an "unskilled" job instead of having to train and performance manage a truly "unskilled" candidate, it would easily justify a 50-100% pay increase as it reduces the cost of management by more than that.

CosmicTurtle0 , (edited )

I think Superstore says it best:

Amy: They're not really gonna replace us! What are they gonna do, find someone who stocks go-backs like Mateo or who works the cash register like Elias?

Myrtle: Yes. Those are both very easy things to do.

The problem is that people generally look down on these types of jobs. Blue collar vs white collar.

Everyone deserves a living thriving wage. You know what's impressive? A cashier who has memorized every produce code whereas I struggle to remember the syntax of a foreach loop and I have to look it up each time. Wtf is a map type?! When did that become a thing?!

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Only "talking back if experienced" is the reason for poverty wages. If they are willing to let us starve for profit, why can't we burn down their homes for bargaining power? Why let them put their value on us in the first place and accept what we are given?

Toneswirly ,

I work as a tech and they havent found someone who can do my job yet. It is complicated, hand-busting work. I am paid little compared to the gang of engineers, middle managers, and executives who are running the company in to the ground. Its maddening.

Beaver ,
@Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

Thank you for making feel I matter when I was stuck in a “unskilled job”

db0 OP ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You do. The most infuriating thing is that there's people out there who would love to do some of these "unskilled jobs" and are very very good at it. But nobody does it out of choice when they would have to endure massive exploitation, not to mention humiliation.

solivine ,
@solivine@sopuli.xyz avatar

In an ideal world I'd love to work some of those instead of a desk job.

db0 OP ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Another World Is Possible

XTL ,

You matter.

And honest work is honest work. That deserves respect regardless of how much education or paperwork or luck it takes to start.

Th4tGuyII , (edited )
@Th4tGuyII@kbin.social avatar

Exactly. Every job has it's own skills, whether that be mental, physical, or both.
There's not a single job on Earth that you could plop someone into with no practuce and have them instantly be good at it - if someone tells you otherwise they're either incompetent or they're lying (like stated in the above meme)

Beaver ,
@Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

Yes. Society needs to show more appreciation for every worker.

Denvil ,

"Burger flippers wanting more than a insert other job here, ridiculous" crowd when everybody else's wages also go up

MeDuViNoX ,
@MeDuViNoX@sh.itjust.works avatar

What about the, "job" of rich kid celebrity that just exists to be chased by media and brands all day? I feel like you could put anyone in that position with zero training and they'd be fine.

Th4tGuyII ,
@Th4tGuyII@kbin.social avatar

While I'm not in the business of defending rich folks, but there is a reason a lot of child celebrities tend to go off the deep end - having never being certain of your privacy is probably maddening.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • random
  • leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
  • test
  • worldmews
  • mews
  • All magazines
    •