Except that this photo is way more zoomed in. A photograph of a house from above is not the same as a photograph of earth from space, even though the angle might be the same.
Even so, t's off by at least some 45°. This picture was taken from way higher up (compare the position of the white lights in the pictures) and more to the left (see the ratio of the tanks side and front).
45° is a huge exaggeration. Yes, slightly higher up and slightly to the left, an angle that's almost identical to the one OP posted, as I've been saying.
The wikipedia page doesn't have any version of this image. Regardless, the most shared images are closer up and from the ground, showing about 5 tanks, not this version with 50 tanks. The image of him sitting in front of a few tanks was the most widely used I believe.
I've seen lots of pictures of Hong Kong protests, and hear about rent protests in Beijing, but haven't seen many photos like this in Beijing proper in the 21st century. Are they that good at scrubbing the web, or did I just miss them?
I think they're saying that, in the 21st century they haven't seen many pictures of the event. Not that they haven't seen pictures from the 21st century.
Notably the mod posted a cbs link that says the reporter never saw any bodies because the military arrested him and held him captive. But the mod doesn’t quote the part of the article where the reporter says people were definitely killed
But there's no question many people were killed by the army that night around Tiananmen Square, and on the way to it — mostly in the western part of Beijing. Maybe, for some, comfort can be taken in the fact that the government denies that, too.
This is a large album of images from the protests in Beijing in 1989. It gives the historical context for the events leading up to the "tank man" photo, and what happened after.
I uploaded this pictures in my old Xiaomi cloud account. It took almost 100 MB out of 5 GB free space. Other 4.9 GB is taken by Winnie the Pooh pictures and memes about Xi.
Yes. They try and minimize it as much as they possibly can. I've seem them claim on here that nobody was killed and that nothing happened at Tiananmen square.
The bloodbath happened on side streets, the square itself was cleared by intimidation alone.
The one important name to know regarding the background and politics of all this is Hu Yaobang. Party hard-liners were happy being a faction of the party and struggling things out with other factions, students had the gall to very openly support the reformist faction, though, and marching onto the square in the wake of Hu Yaobang's death would've set precedent that you can just march onto the square and demand basic decency. Tankies can't have that, they gotta tank, and thus the hardliners took over leadership and reverted course away from the reformists for a decade or two.
I mean yes but no the salient point for the Chinese would be that the army did in fact not roll over all the students on the square, they "merely" intimidated them out of there after massacring themselves through barricades Peking locals had erected to protect the students. I say massacring not so much because those people didn't right-out attack the army, but because the fighting was completely one-sided we're talking pretty much fists and stones against machine guns and tanks.
There were plenty of people within the CCP who wanted to see much more blood, that there was so relatively little blood is thanks to Peking locals (this time less militant ones) bringing rice and fried noodles to the army camping out in front of the city while explaining to them that (unlike what they had heard from the party) those weren't counter-revolutionary bourgeois foreign agents on the square, but simply reformists.
That's why that point is rather important, the Chinese people might not be saying it out loud but "there was a massacre on the square" implies that the people did nothing to influence the situation. They very much did and avoided a much worse calamity.
Still they give counterfactual assertions the same way Trump supporters give counter factual assertions about their lame coup attempt on Jan. 6. “It was a secret plot by someone else!!”
Interestingly, and having done a bit of extra reading, the current Western position is that the killings didn't actually happen in the square itself, but in the surrounding streets as the army was pushing through Beijing to reach Tiananmen Square. Some of the initial reports that came out were evidently erroneous. Again, that's internal communications in the USA acknowledging that. But still very awful and hundreds of people killed according to that version of events.
Even Lemmygrad says there were 300 deaths. I really can't find anyone saying it straight up didn't happen, not even the CPC itself. The closest is saying that the massacre happened outside the square, which seems more of a technicality that both "sides" rely on to pretend the other is making stuff up. Ie, Lemmygrad claiming others know nothing because there was no massacre on the square itself and it all happened outside, while others see that as outright denial.
Lemmygrad also believes it was CIA-backed and turned a pro-Maoist, anti-Dengist protest into an anti-Maoist, anti-Dengist, pro-Liberal Democracy/Capitalist protest, which I would say ultimately doesn't change that protestors were murdered even if that was true.
I think it's helpful to see what people are actually saying, you can better argue it to be an atrocity that way. For example, as above, even if it was steered in a different direction by western forces, it still had popular support and as such was still an unjust escalation of force into massacre.
Ya know I dont know if thats legit NSFL or if im just that desensitized to war photos. Maybe giving 12 year old me a book on the civil war that included post battle photos and sections from a contemporary medical book with photos from the mangled corpses wasnt the wisest move by my grandmother. But ya know what those photos do invoke within me absolute fucken rage.
It's pretty amazing how they let that guy just harass a tank for several minutes and even climb on it, then just kinda let him be led away by bystanders.
For some reason growing up I think everyone assumed he got ran over or killed?
For some reason growing up I think everyone assumed he got ran over or killed?
Because hundreds if not thousands of others were (others have already linked the graphic content).
Also, seeing him being led away in this footage is zero evidence that he survived his protest (unsurprisingly, there is no documentation of him or what the government did to him, but considering what they did to others like him, there is very little room to doubt that he didn't make it).
I'll play devil's advocate - the photographs don't seem to show evidence of thousands dying, or even hundreds necessarily. Dozens, absolutely. I doubt we'll ever know the actual numbers, though. Clearly something awful happened.
Edit: I mean, they really don't... and if they "only" ran over fifty civilians with tanks I think we can still consider that an unforgivable example of state violence. It's not as if the Kent State shootings were okay because they only killed four people.
I'm just saying, I don't feel the photographic record is a particularly robust source when it comes to supporting those higher claims. That doesn't mean it didn't happen that way, just that the pictures are inadequate to prove that.
It always does, imo. Most of the time devil’s advocate isn’t meant to actually “defend” anything, but to find flaws/imperfections in your logic so you can adjust it and when you have to argue with an actual Xi bootlicker “devil”, they’ll have less ammo to refute your point.
The initial exaggeration was probably unintentional, due to second-hand eyewitness testimony getting relayed as fact in the middle of the chaos. But it was later used to pretend nothing happened, which clearly isn't the case. My girlfriend is Chinese and has no idea anything ever happened in Tiananmen Square: she didn't even know that date was censored online, so whatever they're doing is working very well.
There are photos of dozens dead and tossed to the side like a garbage bag, both on the streets and in hospitals. Do you seriously think that's the sort of thing which happens when only a few people died?
I don't claim a strong position. I suppose if I had to say, I believe the estimates of between 2-800 dead, mostly in the streets surrounding Tiananmen Square, with a dozen or so police lynchings amongst that number. But it would be weird for me to be overly attached to that as an opinion, as the evidence is unclear. I think Beijing hospital records suggest about 400, so that seems like a safe lower estimate.
Yes, it's a reasonable minimum estimate. What is it that you're disagreeing with? I've certainly seen all the pictures. But have a read about the declassified diplomatic cables, it's interesting. Notably, the mountains of flesh being burned with flamethrowers probably didn't happen. I have no stake in that, it's the current position held by the US Government. What happened is still monstrous.
Those cables have been proven to be full of shit. Go to Wikipedia and read the accounts of the survivors that were pulled out by the CIA in Operation yellowbird https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird if you want to piece together what happened from primary sources.
Also a video at this link. The man moves to stay in front of the tank and even climbs on top of it. Eventually some folks on foot come and guide/force him out of the way.
Spez probably thought of the possibility of new angles of historic events being generated by AI, but lacked the technical knowledge to realize the technology is not to the point where it becomes indifferentiable.
Its really not about if this person thinks the pic is AI. They're using the term to muddy the waters around a historical fact because they deepthroat the ccp's dick.
