"Palestinian solidarity protests and encampments are appearing on college campuses from Massachusetts to California to protest Israel’s attacks on Gaza and to call for divestment from Israeli apartheid. This week, police have raided encampments and arrested students at Yale and New York University."
@wdlindsy
I applaud the protesters. 💪
Your next problem, your supposed democratic system. A choice between #Thing1or2 is clearly untenable.
Democracy Now #DemocracyNow
@LetsRoc I applaud younger citizens, too, who realize that their future is at stake if they remain apathetic and uninvolved, and who decided, instead, to act together to try to make a difference.
@wdlindsy I see these articles and posts which keep insisting that these peaceful protests are just opposing Israel, and are not antisemitic. And I also see the actual things that my kids confront--the ridiculous blood libels, the ignorant repetition of white supremacist rhetoric, the gaslighting claims that chants which have long been used to call for the death of Jews are just benign calls for freedom. Articles like this are just sad appeals to believe their rhetoric and ignore my lying eyes.
@richard_merren I haven't read credible media reports that indicate these protests are being mounted by people whose goal is to attack the Jewish people and who are antisemitic. I understand that a right-wing movement allied to white Christian nationalism wants to spread that slur about these protests and to equate calls for Israel to stop its slaughter of Palestinians with antisemitism.
@wdlindsy Think of your response here as similar to the "not all men" retort. These protests have adopted some pretty ugly language, much of it matching things white supremacists have said for decades, and fringe parts of protests are both verbally and physically threatening Jews. I am not part of a right wing movement, just a parent tired of REPEATEDLY discussing with my kids the antisemitic slurs they hear and checking whether they are safe. Priveleged people don't have to hear it. We do.
@wdlindsy I had to discuss blood libel with my daughter yesterday, and decide whether we went to her school's administration to discuss messages about jews stealing the skin from dead Palestinians. I have friends with kids afraid to take Jewish history classes. One who was openly and directly threatened with violence last week. Don't gaslight me and tell me it's fake because you haven't seen news stories on it. We're living it.
@richard_merren I have for many years been a very fierce opponent of antisemitism. I deplore the suffering inflicted on people of Jewish background for centuries.
And I very much value the strong ethical voices of the many Jewish people now who are pushing back hard against the gaslighting that tries to use fake charges of antisemitism to justify barbaric treatment of Palestinian people.
Don't use my Mastodon feed to spread disinformation.
@wdlindsy I have neither accused you of antisemitism nor spread disinformation. Why is it so difficult to accept that there are Jewish students with real fears and facing actual dangers? It is not an indictment of the protests or a denial of their cause for you to accept that, in addition to many well meaning students there are also genuine threats facing these students. Why is acknowledging their fear, which is an actual thing, so threatening to you?
@wdlindsy It is frightening to me that I am relaying the actual experience my child and others I know have of being afraid in the halls of their own schools and you accuse me of being a liar, or a gaslighter, or engaging in a siniter ploy, or whatever this is. Believe Jews when they tell you they are frightened. Have some humanity instead of just worrying about how it may affect your cause.
@richard_merren You don't know me and I don't know you. But you said to me previously, "Don't gaslight me and tell me it's fake because you haven't seen news stories on it."
I don't appreciate being informed by someone who doesn't know me from Adam that I'm engaged in gaslighting. I am committed to contributing in my own small way to building a world in which no one's children are denigrated and attacked due to the national origin, religious background, or race.
@wdlindsy And in return I would ask that you do not accuse me of spreading disinformation as you did. There is no reason to baselessly call me a liar or imply that I am part of a right wing campaign. I am not accusing you of anything, just asking you to have some compassion towards students and recognize that perhaps their (and my) lived experiences cause us to react differently to chants and slogans and situations that you may not know the history of and believe to be totally benign.
@richard_merren Your very first statement to me was, "I see these articles and posts which keep insisting that these peaceful protests are just opposing Israel, and are not antisemitic. And I also see the actual things that my kids confront…."
You have from the outset framed the discussion as one about people refusing to see antisemitism as a primary motivating factor in the student protests.
/1
@richard_merren Playing the antisemitism card in that way places those who say that we do not see antisemitism as the overweening reality of the student protests in an unenviable situation, in which you accuse us of being obtuse, stupid, blind, and cruel. Perhaps doing this to fellow human beings who care much about constructive dialogue and building a better world doesn't really serve your understandable interest in combating antisemitism?
/2
@richard_merren There has to be a reason that so many people around the world have come to the conclusion that Israe's treatment of the Palestinians is abhorrent – and who reach this conclusion while supporting Jewish people and deploring antisemitism. Perhaps it would better serve the interests of Jewish people working against antisemitism — as they should do — to listen respectfully to those who deplore atrocities committed by Israel, and not vilify those folks.
/3
@wdlindsy I have absolutely not tried to frame the protests as simply antisemitic and I do not believe that is the case. I have NEVER attacked anyone just for criticizing Israel, and I criticize Israel myself. But I am not going to pretend that chants or posts which call for the death of Jews, or which are longtime calls for ethnic cleansing, or which single out Jews or the Jewish state, or which repeat age-old antisemitic conspiracy theories are acceptable.
@wdlindsy There is a long history of antisemites just substituting "Zionist" for "Jew" and repeating the same ridiculous calumnies we have heard forever. While you are saying that Jewish students' fears of antisemitism are overblown or "weaponized", I am dealing with actual antisemitism that my kids are getting from pro-palestinian fellow students. My daughter just showed me a post from a student that says Zionists are killing Palestinians and stealing their skin because as Europeans they have
@wdlindsy skin cancers. This is just a repackaging of "blood libel" for modern times, and it is plain, old antisemitism and not some legitimate criticism of Israel. Her fears of walking in the halls of her high school with these students are real, not some fake creation we are coming up with to generate propaganda in support of Israel.
@wdlindsy She's the only Jewish kid in her grade, and she has been sharing a near constant stream of vicious, ignorant crap like this for months, some of it directed specifically at her. My son in college has friends who were physically attacked by campus protesters--I've seen the video and I've spoken to kids facing this problem and other actual threats. These things are real dangers students face, not just made-up propaganda.
@wdlindsy I know kids in high school and college who for the past several months have been genuinely afraid. Kids that choose not to take Jewish history classes because they don't want to be targeted. Kids that get singled out in their class to be the person called on as the house Jew who is expected to explain or defend Israel's actions. I know kids who have been verbally or physically threatened, and ones that receive no support from their university to help them feel safe when they report it.
@wdlindsy These kids are seeing these things after YEARS of growing up with increasing antisemitism, a rash of horrifying synagogue shootings, a wave of antisemitic graffiti, and a history of facing actual antisemitism in their own communities. They are not coming into this situation having lived some idyllic, peaceful existence and then suddenly deciding that these protesters are scary because it is a good political tactic.
@wdlindsy They are coming to this with years of history of having to deal with actual threats, of requiring police protection to celebrate their holidays, of kids scrawling words or swastikas on their school papers or their lockers, and of a range of personal experiences with antisemitism.
@wdlindsy At Columbia, there is no question now that kids are being physically threatened and attacked. There are credible news stories of attacks, video of physical intimidation, and EXTREMELY hostile language coming from some of the leaders. Yes, some of the threats are coming from outside groups who are (now) not being allowed on the grounds. But not all of it. And no, it is not all of the protesters--but just like "not all men" is not a reasonable response to women's fears
@wdlindsy of physical danger, "not all protesters" is not a reasonable way to respond to genuine fears of Jewish students. They live in a climate where they are seeing actual threats against themselves and others, amplified by social media, and this is following a horrific attack where many of them either personally know someone killed or (at the very least) know someone who is mourning a friend or family member who died brutally at the hands of Hamas on Oct 7.
@wdlindsy How are they supposed to react to students at these protests wearing Hamas insignia or waving Hamas flags or chanting Hamas slogans or calling Hamas's actions justified? Should they just trust that they are safe because you believe the cause of opposing Israel is a just one and therefore the protesters are the good guys?
@wdlindsy Of course not. Like women and trans students and gay students and Asian students and Muslim students and Hispanic students, they have to assume that someone wearing the insignia of or using the language of the people dangerous to them could actually be dangerous to them.
@wdlindsy You keep accusing me of villifying the protesters. I am not doing that. I am critical of them for adopting slogans and symbols that are violent or which call for ethic cleansing or death or which repeat longstanding antisemitic canards, and I am not going to stop criticizing them for that, but don't lump me in with the Republicans who are exploiting this as another way to attack universities.
@wdlindsy I am critical of protesters' hyperbolic and inappropriate language in describing the actions of the Israeli government, but don't lump me in with the Israeli government and assume I approve of their tactics or their actions. I am not (and would not) accuse you of supporting or approving of Hamas's actions on Oct 7 just because you are critical of Israel, and I assume you are horrified by the actions of Oct 7,
@wdlindsy so give me the same benefit of the doubt that I don't simply approve of things you oppose just because I disagree with you on something else.
@wdlindsy All I have ever asked of you is that you acknowledge that there are students who feel unsafe, and show them some compassion. Don't dismiss their genuine fears or claim that they are just using the talk of fears to stop the protests they don't like. Even if you think their fears are baseless (and they are not), you can still accept that they have these fears and that they may be triggered by things that you are not seeing, not aware of, or not educated on the history of.
@wdlindsy You don't have to like Israel or Netanyahu or Likud or condemn the protesters to show some basic compassion to these students. All you have to to is agree that Jewish students deserve to feel safe. Why is that so controversial?
@wdlindsy The sad irony here is that you and I probably agree on the actual, important things that we should all be calling for, and we could be standing side-by-side to make the same demands. The three things we should all agree on, should all be calling for, and can easily say without betraying anyone we support are:
@wdlindsy None of those things are controversial. These are the things I would like to see protesters calling for instead of wasting everyone's time and energy with pointless discussions of boycotts and divestment and statements of support or condemnation. These are the things I want to see.
@richard_merren I think that the reality of any protests like these is that they are by nature diffuse, in that many different kinds of people take part in them for many different reasons. I remember this well from the anti-war (Vietnam War) protests I myself took part in when I was in college. I do think, though, that it's a positive thing when younger people take action together to challenge serious injustice and demand immediate reforms — since their futures are at stake.
@richard_merren When and where have I ever said that Jewish people of any age group should not feel safe? In my wildest dreams, I would not ever think or say otherwise. Why would I want anything except safety and happiness and well-being for my Jewish neighbor now celebrating Passover, to whom I just took a cake plate with a menorah and star of David depicted on it to let her know she and her family are in my thoughts?
@wdlindsy I did not in any way, shape, or form accuse you of wanting anyone to be unsafe. As I have repeated multiple times, I only ask that you stop dismissing the concerns for safety that Jewish students are expressing. You seem loathe to do this, apparently out of a concern that it will somehow diminish the message that Palestinians are suffering in Gaza. Nobody doubts your basic humanity or that you are kind to your neighbors, but your repeated resistance to this simple message is odd.
"Mainstream-media reporters covering the growing wave of college protests against Israel’s war in Gaza have adopted an overwhelmingly negative tone about something they should be celebrating: the peaceful free expression of college students understandably devastated by the pulverizing of Gaza and the slaughter of over 34,000 Palestinians by the Israeli military."
"The root cause of this journalistic dysfunction is that too many reporters have embraced the toxic presumption that any anti-Gaza-war protest is inherently antisemitic, and that any such protest legitimately makes Jewish students feel unsafe.
That’s actually a grotesque viewpoint: it both smears peaceful protesters (many of whom are Jewish) and trivializes real antisemitism."
@wdlindsy William, looking at the definition of Semitic, it is not exclusive to the Jewish people and Zionism? I was called a racist for posting this:
"Semitic: [adjective] of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic." Merriam-Webster
I have tried very hard not to be pedantic on this point, as the general usage of Semitic and anti-Semitic are indeed different.
But it should be pointed out over and over again (as you always do) that being opposed to policies of the state of Israel is not "anti-Semitic." It is not necessarily even "anti-Zionist."
I can be in favor of the existence of Israel and still consider the current government to be a criminal enterprise. The two views are not inconsistent.
@MylesRyden@Piousunyn "It should be pointed out over and over again (as you always do) that being opposed to policies of the state of Israel is not 'anti-Semitic.' It is not necessarily even 'anti-Zionist.'"
I could not agree more. This is where I stand. And it's where I see a lot of Jewish scholars and religious leaders whom I highly esteem and who have taught me much over the years also standing.
@wdlindsy Lots of people have not noticed the size of the Palestinian diaspora. Just like the Irish diaspora before them, they have a keen interest in the goings on in the homeland of their ancestors. As long as their is no violence, leave them alone. Nothing is more American than protest.
@justicesandwich You might direct the question to Dan Froomkin, who's the person making the statement to which you're responding, Mr. Sandwich. Am I mistaken to think that Mr. Froomkin is Jewish?
@Runyan50 I lived through that period and took part in antiwar protests and also civil rights protests, and remember well the vilification of students engaged in protests in that turbulent period. It's one reason I'm a staunch defender now of students' right to protest.