Fifty-nine percent of Americans think Biden and Trump too old for another term ( abcnews.go.com )

e; I wrote a better headline than the ABC editors decided to and excerpted a bit more

According to the poll, conducted using Ipsos' Knowledge Panel, 86% of Americans think Biden, 81, is too old to serve another term as president. That figure includes 59% of Americans who think both he and former President Donald Trump, the Republican front-runner, are too old and 27% who think only Biden is too old.

Sixty-two percent of Americans think Trump, who is 77, is too old to serve as president. There is a large difference in how partisans view their respective nominees -- 73% of Democrats think Biden is too old to serve but only 35% of Republicans think Trump is too old to serve. Ninety-one percent of independents think Biden is too old to serve, and 71% say the same about Trump.

Concerns about both candidates' ages have increased since September when an ABC News/Washington Post poll found that 74% of Americans thought Biden -- the oldest commander in chief in U.S. history -- was too old to serve another term as president, and 49% said the same about Trump.

Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20240214133801/https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/poll-americans-on-biden-age/story?id=107126589

Part that drew my eye,

The poll also comes days after the Senate failed to advance a bipartisan foreign aid bill with major new border provisions.

Americans find there is blame to go around on Congress' failure to pass legislation intended to decrease the number of illegal crossings at the U.S.-Mexico border -- with about the same number blaming the Republicans in Congress (53%), the Democrats (51%) and Biden (49%). Fewer, 39%, blame Trump.

More Americans trust that Trump would do a better job of handling immigration and the situation at the border than Biden -- 44%-26% -- according to the poll.

So that bipartisan border bill stunt was terrible policy, and it doesn't seem to have done anything for the Democratic party politically

Can we please stop trying to compromise with fascists now?

jaschen ,

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/24/donald-trump-cpac-speech

Wow, was this a joke too?

LemmyKnowsBest ,

The 41% of Americans who don't think Biden and Trump are too old for this bullshit, are probably beyond elderly themselves.

uis ,
@uis@lemm.ee avatar

68% of russians say they do not want to see president older than 70 years old. Putin is 71.

TankovayaDiviziya ,

Politicians are getting older because young people don't vote, while old people tend to be the most active voters. Young people need to be more politically active.

Got_Bent ,

I'd be curious to look back in time and see if historical politicians retired or stayed until death.

If the latter, the sole reason we see it differently today is substantially increased lifespan.

I honestly don't know the answer to my curiosity.

TankovayaDiviziya ,

Other countries, especially those in Europe, have way younger politicians on average than in the US, even though Europe has faster ageing population than Americans. It's just that American youths are apathetic. I'm sorry to say this but we young people whine but don't actually do anything. You don't like the candidates running from both parties? Mobilise and start a grassroots campaign to present viable alternatives who are not from either Democratic or Republican parties. It's not like there were no third party that were elected before in local elections. Majority of Americans actually identify as independent, but are silenced by the noisy partisan sides. People only lack political will.

PriorityMotif ,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

Younger Americans were held back in their lives. Very few have the ability to run for office because older people never passed the torch. They had mentors from a young age and pulled up the ladder.

TankovayaDiviziya ,

I don't know about that. I know millenials and Gen Z are screwed over from owning homes, but historically, American youths just don't vote. I got down voted in my first comment but I have statistics to back it up if anyone actually cares to Google voter turnout in American elections since the 1960s.

Even back then, youths don't vote in larger turnout than older folks. It is curious, consider that the youth population from 40-60 years who did not vote, now make up the most important voter demographic of elder and pensionable population. So, what gives? That's food for thought, and there is something telling about the American society if the youth population from back then don't vote in significant numbers, as they still don't now.

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

The bothsiderist media is happy to let a fascist slide into office all while acting like they just have to harp on Biden's age.

Suppose Biden becomes unable to do the job. So what? There are plenty of capable people are him, and Harris will just assume the office. Big deal; not much changes.

But if tiny d gets into office...he's been promising to be the con movement's "vengeance" and promising to be a dictator (but only for a day, yeah right).

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

But if tiny d gets into office…he’s been promising to be the con movement’s “vengeance” and promising to be a dictator (but only for a day, yeah right).

In that case the Democrats better put up somebody else besides Biden to vote for, so we don't go there.

https://lemmy.world/comment/7576723

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

Depends on what you mean by the "media" because I'll agree there are a lot of shitheel columnists and hack journalists out there, but I think there are a lot of very good ones too who are trying hard to do a very difficult job in a difficult historical moment, and I think they wouldn't be doing their jobs properly if they didn't talk about Biden's age because it's an obvious potential issue.

That all said, I agree with your second paragraph and strongly agree with the third.

CosmicCleric , (edited )
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Age is more than a number. Some people are very sharp at 80. Some are rapidly deteriorating at 60.

This is the point I wish everyone would remember when they're discussing this issue. It's not the age, but the 'wear and tear' that matters.

Some people age more gracefully than others, and we truly do want to have our elders wisdom, especially during trying times.

Having said all that, my personal opinion on all of this is that Biden seems to have cognitively/physically worn down past the level required for the decision-making/stresses of the office of the Presidency.

If he wants to have a third party doctor give him a cognizant test, and he passes it, and he publicly notifies all of us voters of that, then I would be up for voting for him again.

But judging based on the very little I'm allowed to see, as a voter, based on how few public news conferences that he does, and having seen him faltering in some of those, it truly does seem like it's time for him to move on.

Also IMO, Trump is a semen stain on the soul of America, and he quite literally is a test to see if America is America, or not. If we reaffirm our leader as someone who, as a 'wolf in sheeps clothing', is a very immoral and unethical grifter, then we are lost. All of us.

Not that it's going to happen, but both parties should be putting someone else up as their candidates for the presidency of the United States of America in 2024.

jaschen ,

It's a fact that the chance of an incumbent has a higher chance of winning a reelection. So, I understand why we are going with Biden. Even Biden said he was only going to run once. But this isn't just some random election. This will likely determine if America is going to exist past 2024

diverging ,
@diverging@lemmy.ml avatar

Even Biden said he was only going to run once.

I don't think Biden ever said that he would run only once. The news was that a few anonymous sources who were supposedly close to the Biden campaign said that he would not run for re-election and his campaign then denied that.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/474059-biden-campaign-denies-one-term-report/

jaschen ,

According to the same source he will be a 1 term president. Maybe they just covering their bases?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/474027-biden-indicates-he-will-only-serve-one-term-as-president-report/

diverging ,
@diverging@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah. The link I posted is a followup to that story, in which the Biden campaign says those rumors are false.

You have to read more than the headline (but even the headline has a hint that this is not Biden speaking directly).
The article says "Four people who regularly speak with the 77-year-old Biden told Politico that it is unlikely he would run for reelection in 2024" It's just rumors at best. More likely it's propaganda to get people to not worry about his age.

jaschen ,

Ya likely. Who knows except for him I guess. Well, at least we got Harris if he passes away. Can't be said with Trump right now.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

Having said all that, my personal opinion on all of this is that Biden seems to have cognitively/physically worn down past the level required for the decision-making/stresses of the office of the Presidency

If JFK and Reagan could do it with all their health problems I think Biden will be fine. It's not ideal, but the staffers of the White House and Pentagon can hold things together for a while if needbe, and I will take that over a Republican administration any day.

overzeetop ,
@overzeetop@lemmy.world avatar

If he wants to have a third party doctor give him a cognizant test, and he passes it, and he publicly notifies all of us voters of that, then I would be up for voting for him again.

Except for the fact that it's generally military physicians who treat the President, he gets a cognitive test every year as part of his physical. Trump got one every year too, and was as proud as a toddler with a gold star sticker when he "passed" it. The white house releases the results of the President's annual exam and, presuming you do not distrust the doctor, it is what it is.

Nobody is going to be administering some mental agility test on the President any more than they'll be asking him to complete and pass the ACFT (Army Combat Fitness Test).

(IMO he should have stepped aside last year and let Kamala Harris take over as President to give her a chance to make her own case for re-election, making way for the next generation to lead.)

kava ,

Kamala Harris probably has less chances than Hilary unfortunately. Remember whoever the Dems choose have to beat Trump. And the election cycle is sort of repeating what happened in 2016.

Nobody thought Trump had any chances. At the start of this election cycle DeSantis was beating Trump in polls. People thought Trump was done for. Then what happens? Trump is constantly on the news, just like in 2016. Then he dominates the GOP primary, just like in 2016.

The only candidate that has any chance to beat Trump is another populist candidate. Someone like Bernie but more aggressive and controversial.

Biden only won because he was the VP for Obama who was a popular president (relative to modern presidents). He was a great public speaker and was the last real "presidential" president we've had. A coherent and articulate speaker.

Kamala Harris simply would not inherit any meaningful public opinion from Biden. It would be the opposite - she would have to start from a worse position.

Biden is less popular than Trump. Both current popularity and if we go back to Trump'a popularity at the same time during his presidency. If the election was held today, Trump would win with a strong margin - according to the polls.

overzeetop ,
@overzeetop@lemmy.world avatar

according to the polls.

Yeah, about those - I've been wondering who and how they're polling. Nobody I know under 50 even has a real landline, and most of them don't pick up calls on their cell unless it comes up as someone in their contacts. Same with SMS or any messaging. Web ads? Facebook ads (LOL)? It sure as hell isn't email, either. It's probably nearly impossible to get any realistic data in person since most people avoid in-person marketing even harder than online. The only people I know who do answer the telephone are old people - like over 55 or 60, and that's a pretty skewed demographic.

kava ,

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/

there's a website that catalogues and compiles polls from various different sources. each poll asks something like 1500~ people. they do both telephone and online polling, depending on the polling organization. if you click on the poll, you can find out more about the organization and they often publish exact methods and data so you can look for yourself how they gathered the data

now, you're right that the sample size is going to be different than the population. however, there is a science and math to this stuff where you can use formulas in order to account for that. let me give a simple example

let's say you live in Townsville with a population of 60 people. 20 of those people are male and 40 are female. you want to find out whether everyone likes vanilla or chocolate ice cream, so you go to the bowling alley. at the bowling alley, there are 10 men and 10 women. so you survey everyone but you realize

the sample size demographics are different than the actual population demographics. in the population, females outnumber males 2 to 1 whereas in the sample population it's 1:1. so you need to weigh your votes accordingly

you can either do one of two things - you can count every vote from a woman twice. or you can count every vote for a men at a ratio of 50%. that way you are representing the population demographics more accurately

polling agencies do this but with a myriad of different demographic properties. age, sex, gender, income, ethnicity, etc, in order to try to get a more accurate number. you will never be able to exactly represent a population with a small sample size, but you can get pretty damn close within a margin of error.

tldr: polls are not perfect but they absolutely can help predict public sentiment because of some statistical axioms (Law of Large Numbers, Central Limit Theorem, Random Sampling)

overzeetop ,
@overzeetop@lemmy.world avatar

I agree that there are statistical methods to everything, and they are quite powerful. My concern is that population sample is limited and, in many ways self-selecting, due to the ability of pollsters to access a representative cross section of the (population/voting population). I noted the impossibility of getting a representative sample using telephone polling. Online would be just as fraught - huge demographics literally don't participate in those communication methods, by choice. Granted, actual voting is similarly inaccurate, and can be wildly so, do to voluntary non-participation; but the cross product of phone/internet poll users and voters, I would suspect, is pretty far from 1.0.

Rapidcreek ,

A useless poll. Both are on their tickets and will stay that way. Hey, I'd like to have a pony too ..

jj4211 ,

There can be hope that they get the message for 2028 at least...

reverendsteveii ,

assuming an even split between republicans who think they're both too old and democrats who think they're both too old, roughly 30% of the population voting would be enough to sway either party's nomination process should these people decide to.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

If they all agreed on a single candidate, which is where it gets difficult

Odd_so_Star_so_Odd ,

Isn't this why you have the VP running mates? You vote for them just as much.

reverendsteveii ,

this is certainly why you have primaries. not participating in the primaries is like saying "I don't care" when someone asks you what restaurant you want to go to then complaining about the menu selection when you get there.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

"So, do you want dog food or do you want someone to shit in your mouth? No, the Mexican place closed. No, the Italian place closed. No, the Chinese place closed too. ... Dog food it is then!" - Democratic primary 2024

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t this why you have the VP running mates? You vote for them just as much.

VPs are chosen for 'helping to win an election' reasons, not processional/competency reasons.

They're usually chosen to pull in very specific groups of voters/states to 'shore up' what the president can't pull in on his or her own.

liv ,
@liv@lemmy.nz avatar

Surely that is not what the job is supposed to be though.

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Surely that is not what the job is supposed to be though.

Its not, but it ends up that way.

AeonFelis ,

If 59% think that they are both too old and 62% think that Trump is too old (regardless of Biden), does that mean that 3% think that Trump is too old but Biden isn't too old, despite the objective fact that Biden is 4 years older than Trump?

Hagdos ,

Age is more than a number. Some people are very sharp at 80. Some are rapidly deteriorating at 60.

Nudding ,

Nobody is very sharp at 80. What kind of bullshit is this?
Would you get in the plane knowing the pilot and copilot were 80+ years old?

Kit ,

No, but I'd trust an 80 year old career pilot who is mentally sharp to write or weigh in on policies surrounding aircrafts.

Nudding ,

Wild, because commercial airline pilots are forced to retire at age 65 in your country.

Edit: man I'm so baked I read the literal opposite meaning of your comment. I'm done for today, lol.

Flumpkin ,

Back in My Day people weren't complaining when the emergency exit door ripped off in the middle of the flight!

Nudding ,

Let me try again:

I don't want anyone over the age of 70 to have anything to do with policy, law, etc.

TankovayaDiviziya ,

It's funny to see that some online commenters, including progressives, would happily point out what's wrong with society and welcome the proposed most sensible solutions. But when it comes to placing mandatory retirement age for politicians, these commenters would quickly object and say age doesn't matter so long as the person could perform the job well. And these same people are also happy with keeping the minimum voting age at 18 years old and the minimum age to become eligible for POTUS at 35. If age doesn't matter to these objectors, they should also be open to lowering the age to vote and become president of USA. It says a lot that these objectors are old people themselves.

Nudding ,

Here here.

go_go_gadget ,

And yet nobody is willing to call out the selfish pieces of shit who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries. They are dragging all of us down with them.

Jeknilah ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    go_go_gadget ,

    Honestly, this sounds like an attempt to excuse the people who voted for him in the primaries but the reality is there is no good excuse. There were much better options. Voting for Biden in the primaries was selfish and foolish. If we aren't clear about that the people making selfish and foolish decisions in the primaries will continue to make selfish and foolish decisions.

    abraxas ,

    You say "better options" but a clear majority of Democrats thought Biden was the better option. And all the other candidates that anyone took seriously are in the same age range as them. Nobody younger knocked on the door with a platform really worth backing. Buttigieg had no Federal chops whatsoever, Harris was a freaking prosecutor.

    Or if you're just talking "better in general", then you're talking about the Progressives war. Bernie still hasn't realized he'll never win a Primary, and the way his campaign sabotaged and undercut Warren's with necessary voting demographics was a killshot. Grassroot movements to call her a secret Republican. They should be ashamed of themselves.

    go_go_gadget ,

    You say “better options” but a clear majority of Democrats thought Biden was the better option.

    Were they right?

    nomous ,

    You're asking for an opinion.

    A majority of Democrats thought Biden was the better option and despite the complaints of terminally online leftists, it appears they still do.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Yes I'm asking what your opinion is.

    nomous ,

    I personally liked Bernie but he sounded like a broken record at times. In hindsight I have my doubts he'd have won in the general anyway. Biden was easily the strongest candidate, who do you think was better?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Biden was easily the strongest candidate

    This is an admission you believe people would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists.

    I won't be voting for Biden in 2024. I will be voting 3rd party.

    who do you think was better?

    Anyone but Biden or Bloomberg was a better choice.

    nomous ,

    Brother I don't even think the vast majority of the electorate can define fascist much less decide they'd rather have that than compromise with leftists.

    Anyone but Biden or Bloomberg was a better choice.

    Clinging to ideological purity while you lose elections isn't how you get a seat at the table. It's how you lose.

    go_go_gadget ,

    I have the same message for moderates.

    I won't be voting for Joe Biden in the 2024 primaries. I will be voting 3rd party. When they're ready to let go of their ideological purity and compromise with leftists and progressives I'll be here.

    Linkandluke ,

    If you are voting third party, instead of for Biden. Aren't you saying you'd rather lose to fascist then vote for Biden?

    Because at the end of the day, it's Biden vs Trump. A vote for Biden, is be a vote against Trump and vice versa.

    go_go_gadget ,

    If you are voting third party, instead of for Biden. Aren’t you saying you’d rather lose to fascist then vote for Biden?

    You could certainly make that argument. Would that make me selfish and foolish?

    Linkandluke ,

    If you don't want fascism, I be would say it's foolish. I be wouldn't say it's selfish tho. I don't really understand what selfish about it.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Do you have the same judgement for moderates?

    Linkandluke ,

    Absolutely.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Great! I appreciate your support!

    abraxas , (edited )

    He did better than he promised at basically everything. I really wanted someone who would push the envelope to the Left, but he never promised that and a lot of Democratic voters didn't want that anyway. He did recover us from COVID and dramatically improve the economy. He attempted some things that were more progressive than I expected of him, with various levels of success.

    EDIT: he also compromised more with the Left than any president since Carter. Not much, but something

    go_go_gadget ,

    Sounds like you're fine with the way things are working then.

    I will not be voting for Joe Biden in 2024. I will be voting 3rd party.

    WalrusDragonOnABike ,

    Didn't Warren's campaign just shoot itself in the foot, trying to play political games rather than focusing on things like policies? I never saw anyone call her a secret Republican. Just someone who picked incompetent people who run her campaign.

    abraxas ,

    I mean....no. Her campaign was arguably the polar opposite of that to her detriment. She said she wanted to do something. Then she wrote up a detailed plan for it and published it, letting the other candidates find something in the details they didn't like and tear it apart.

    She's a policy wonk who is a law professor first and a politician second.

    I never saw anyone call her a secret Republican

    There were a lot of "grassroots" youtube videos that came out and took lines of hers out of context. They would softball questions like "Warren is just as good as Bernie because they vote the same a lot, right? WRONG! Warren is a capitalist pretending to be progressive to steal your vote". And those grassroot video efforts started to trace back to Sanders campaign leadership. Nobody ever quite confirmed if Bernie directly knew his campaign was doing it, but the rule is usually that the campaign's action sare the candidate's responsibility.

    WalrusDragonOnABike ,

    She was doing fine when the focus was on policy. Then it turned to weird personal attacks and gotchas, and people stopped caring.

    abraxas ,

    She was specifically asked if she had a conversation with Bernie where he said a very specific sentence. Nobody knows where the media got that information, but she answered truthfully and moved on. Then Bernie denied it up and down and turned it political.

    How do we know who told the truth? Because they hot-micced her at the end trying to talk to him, shocked at how he accused her of lying on national TV.

    If one had anything bad to say about Warren it's that she didn't know how to fight dirty anymore than Mcain did in his campaign. I'd buy that.

    Linkandluke ,

    For curiosity sake, what's selfish about voting for Biden?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Give me an example of a reason to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries that wasn't selfish or foolish.

    Linkandluke ,

    I understand there are arguments to be made about it being foolish. I don't agree but I could understand the arguments.

    My question is how is it selfish? There are infinite reasons why it's not selfish. For example, maybe you like moderates. Maybe you didn't want trump to win and you thought he was the best candidate. Maybe you like that he likes ice cream. Maybe you closed your eyes and picked randomly. None of these are selfish reasons. I struggle to think of a selfish reason to vote Biden, unless you are Biden voting for yourself.

    go_go_gadget ,

    They ignored the voices and pleas of progressive and leftist voices who have been suffering under establishment Democrat leadership. Rather than find a compromise candidate they chose the epitome of establishment Democrat expecting that those voices would show up to vote for him anyway.

    That's selfish in my view.

    Linkandluke ,

    Would you agree for the same logic for Republicans.

    By voting a progressive leader, we would be ignoring the voices and pleas of those who have been suffering under the established Democrat leadership? Is this selfish?

    What about of the roles were reversed? What if we had a progressive leader for the last 4 years and the moderates wanted Biden now. Would we be ignoring the voices and pleas of the moderates to keep our current progressive in? Is this also selfish?

    go_go_gadget ,

    You and I already came to the understanding that you are you applying your judgement consistently. I'm fine with your judgements against me so long as you apply them to moderates.

    Linkandluke ,

    At this point, I think any vote toward Trump's main opposition is the correct vote. Anything else is, to use your word, foolish if you don't want fascism.

    Meaning voting third party (or not voting) because your candidate isn't progressive/moderate/anything enough, is as good as voting for Trump.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Again. That's fine. Just remember that in the 2028 primaries.

    Shaggy1050 ,

    I believe he specifically said it during one of the debates. I really wish he would have followed through with it.

    abraxas ,

    He has implied the only reason he's running for a second term is because he doesn't want Trump to be president again.

    We can never know, but if Trump weren't running, he might not be either.

    Chocrates ,

    Just because he has convinced himself that he is the only one that can beat Trump doesn't make it true.
    In fact I would argue that him running again is somewhat selfish.

    He has certainly had a good term, I am guilty of ignoring that, but he is old. Why have we let ourselves get into the position we are in.

    hydrospanner ,

    Serious question: who do you think would be more likely to defeat Trump in November?

    Like...there may very well be someone that you personally like more, but from a political strategy perspective, who's out there that you think has better odds at defeating Trump?

    Harris? Bernie?

    I'm not arguing the implications of any position, but strictly making observations, I feel that, love him or hate him, Biden is the one person with the best odds to beat Trump in a nationwide general election, and I feel that this will still be true in November.

    Chocrates ,

    Totally agree, and I don't have an answer. I am a filthy liberal so who I would want as president probably isn't who the nation wants.

    Bernie is good but he has age issues as well.
    Kamala is probably the only reasonable choice. She was vice president so she has the experience and she is an ok orator to my knowledge.

    I haven't really paid much attention though to be honest. I want someone with AOC's politics leading the Democrats but that is never going to happen for lots of reasons.

    Linkandluke ,

    Kamala would rally the right so hard if she was the candidate. Heck when Biden ran in 2020, him picking her as a running mate caused the right to freak out enough already. They started these huge conspiracies saying day one Biden would step down and hand the presidency to her. Which even amongst some of my peers, I heard. It's scary how conspiracy theories can spread.

    Matter of fact, I wonder if reminding them of this point would have them be more skeptical for the next scheme...

    abraxas ,

    Kamala was a tough-on-crime prosecutor. She might even be able to rally some of the right to vote for her.

    Not sure that's saying something good about her, though.

    Linkandluke ,

    The right hates her. I can't understand why the right would hate a confident african american woman, enough to make up conspiracy theories about her.

    abraxas ,

    You mean more than "she's a Democratic VP"? I wasn't aware of that. She seemed the most conservative-friendly candidate to me in 2020 except Bloomberg. Guess I wasn't aware of the particular hatred. I wonder why that could be. Surely not because she's both a minority and a woman.

    Linkandluke ,

    Yeah. I know a few people in my red state, who didn't love Trump after his last year or so and were on the fence if they were going to vote for him or just sit 2020 out.

    When Harris was selected for vp.. all a sudden it was the narrative of Biden might get sick or die and her become president. Which way unacceptable. Once that narrative took hold and swayed voters, they pushed it further to Biden was a puppet to her.. then they pushed it to he was going to step down day 1 to give her presidency.

    It was dreadful.

    abraxas ,

    Interesting. I haved lived in and out of Purple areas in a deep-Blue state, so perhaps the Republicans here are a little less insane than the typical ones. Not surprised, really, just didn't realize

    Chocrates ,

    She was a successful prosecutor and da in a large city so she has some pretty "bad" history upholding the law and the war in drugs. But as others have said the right leaning voters should eat that shit up, of we lived in a world where it wasn't a big game.

    abraxas ,

    In fairness, if 2020 had fallen differently Warren could've done it. If Bernie had backed her as a VP candidate instead of running, there was a solid shot they could've beaten Biden. She actually was leading the betting odds for "president" when the 2024 campaign began.

    Warren had the opposite of what the Clintons had. She was a constantly progressive voter who could rally the moderate vote of a Harvard-trained law professor with a no-nonsense mindset.

    She was also Obama-level known (unknown to common voters, but known to people who paid attention) so there wasn't years of hate-news on her. The worst they could get was a true story about her having Native American ancestors that was intentionally blown out of proportion. That's some Tan Suit shit there.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Isn't this an admission on your part that you believe moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with progressives and leftists?

    Linkandluke ,

    Maybe enough of them would to shift the election towards Trump. Even if it's 60/40, losing 40% of the moderates could be a be death sentence for the Democratic candidate. Look at how many people "voted to send a message" in previous years. It's sad but it might be true.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Then it's the moderates who are the problem. Not leftists or progressives.

    Linkandluke ,

    I agree with you on this at least. Given the choices between racism or any Democratic leader, we should unite behind the Democrat.

    abraxas ,

    The moderate Democrats are probably the single largest voting bloc in the country. They don't get to be "the problem" in a Democracy. They're the base.

    go_go_gadget , (edited )

    Then they can elect Biden in 2024 without my help. I'll be voting 3rd party.

    abraxas ,

    Yes. Despite your Trump vote, we will elect Biden and preserve this country.

    go_go_gadget ,

    I heard similar confidence in 2016. Good luck.

    abraxas ,

    Are you really bragging about your support of fascism now? Oh look, found the block button.

    go_go_gadget ,

    You were just bragging about how Biden is going to win despite refusing to compromise with leftists as if it's something to be proud of. That ain't a flex my man. That's gross.

    hydrospanner ,

    To use a recent quote from these comments:

    Isn't this an admission on your part that you believe progressives and leftists would rather lose to fascists than compromise with moderates?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Yes. Except, we did compromise in 2020. And in 2012.

    When was the last time the moderates compromised?

    hydrospanner ,

    Well said.

    This twerp is essentially saying "Everyone didn't give up what they wanted to give me what I wanted, so it's their fault if Trump wins because I didn't vote for Biden!"

    This totally out of touch perspective and entitlement gives a bad look to all progressives.

    Like...I totally get the frustration with the DNC but they're keeping their eyes on the prize here. If and when Trump eventually dies, I might be more sympathetic to a discussion about the progressive bloc holding out for a platform shift to the left, but as long as Trump is on the ballot, anyone not supporting him should be willing to put differences aside and unite against an existential threat.

    This isn't 2012 where the Romney/Ryan ticket was simply running on a platform of conservatism...Trump is a different breed and has proven his disregard for our republic many times over.

    abraxas ,

    Pretty much. I'm a progressive. Specifically, a socdem. I fully acknwledge that most people don't want what I want. The fact that one side is giving me a seat at the table and offering me some progress and concessions means the world to me.

    and when Trump eventually dies, I might be more sympathetic to a discussion about the progressive bloc holding out for a platform shift to the left

    I won't hold my breath, though. The Left is what... 13% of Democrats? If the Republicans fully died and the Democrats split, we Progressives would have to find allies to even win an election. Changing hearts takes time, and we've backpedaled a long way since the early 90's.

    hydrospanner ,

    What a warped view of the situation.

    No.

    First of all, it's not "an admission" it's an observation.

    Second, it's not about what I believe, it's an observation.

    Third, I'm not going to speculate on what a bloc of MI l millions of voters would "rather" do in your framework.

    Biden was the nominee in 2020 not because he was the candidate anyone liked best, but because he was the candidate that everyone disliked least. In 2024 he's still that candidate.

    Further, and more to your point, the entire notion of "moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with progressives and leftists" is a wild misrepresentation if voting weight at best, and a total disconnect with the reality of the situation in all likelihood.

    More accurately: if the left flank of the American left cannot get onboard with a candidate that the majority of the rest of the American left supports...not even when the alternative is a fascist...then it's that left flank of the party who bears responsibility for being uncompromising, and letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    I'd love to see a progressive president, but for that to happen, they need the votes. And it's wildly unreasonable to expect the majority of the Democratic party back someone who won't be able to carry moderates in swing states just because the progressives won't back them unless they do.

    Like it or not, leftists and progressives are a far more politically expendable bloc than swing state suburban moderates.

    go_go_gadget ,

    My that's a massive wall of backpedaling.

    hydrospanner ,

    There was zero backpedal, only breaking things down into bite sized pieces for you.

    go_go_gadget , (edited )

    Like it or not, leftists and progressives are a far more politically expendable bloc than swing state suburban moderates.

    I mean, until a general election is lost at which point leftists and progressives are blamed for it. And again, this sounds very much like an admission moderates are refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives. Followed up by moderates insisting the very real risk of Biden to Trump leads me right back to my question:

    Isn't this an acknowledgement moderates would rather risk losing to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives?

    Finally, people have this weird obsession with inverting responsibility where the majority refuses to compromise but is responsible for nothing, the minorities walk away from the table and are at fault. It makes zero sense. If you're the majority, you're driving the decisions and thus you're responsible for the outcome.

    abraxas ,

    In 2020, I'd have said Warren. She was able to bring in almost every demographic, if she didn't lose progressive votes to the infighting with Bernie.

    In 2024, nobody has a better shot than Biden.

    abraxas ,

    Just because he has convinced himself that he is the only one that can beat Trump doesn’t make it true.

    An unpopular president typically does better than a popular candidate. That's just how encumbancy works.

    In fact I would argue that him running again is somewhat selfish.

    Screw stats and precedent? Would you feel the same way if your favorite candidate ran and Trump crushed them by historic margins?

    Why have we let ourselves get into the position we are in.

    Because we're a party of compromise, and the other side is a party fo extremism. Our compromise involved someone with a lot of bullet points in his favor for our older voters while still appealing to enough of our younger voters.

    Chocrates ,

    crew stats and precedent? Would you feel the same way if your favorite candidate ran and Trump crushed them by historic margin

    Not entirely sure I follow but I guess that, that attitude is from my pessimism that an 81 year old can win the presidency. You are right that incumbents have a major advantage and it does seem silly to throw that away.

    I also don't have any idea who I would want to be running in his stead. As I have said elsewhere I am far left and like the Squads politics, but I am under no illusion that they could win a nationwide race. Even though the planet is burning.

    lemmylem ,

    Literally.

    gAlienLifeform OP ,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean, I've made telling moderate Dems how their crappy candidates are blowing elections for us at a time when we really can't afford to be empowering Republicans a personal crusade since at least 2016, but I'll admit I've had some pretty limited success with that effort

    Eggyhead ,

    What is the population percentage of boomers, around 40%, per chance?

    dangblingus ,

    About ~20%

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/241488/population-of-the-us-by-sex-and-age/

    uis ,
    @uis@lemm.ee avatar

    20% of population got 100% of presidents. Fucking iron throne.

    mellowheat ,

    You're not voting for only Trump or Biden. What you're also voting for is the people they bring in as admin.

    hyperhopper ,

    Who cares? We shouldn't have the choices on the ballot being both choices that the majority of Americans don't want

    mellowheat ,

    While you're right that the options are shit, I'm just pointing out that the background people will be more different than the presidents themselves.

    gAlienLifeform OP ,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, this admin ranges all the way from corporate toady Pete Buttigieg to Lina Khan, who has been kicking ass and taking names at the FTC

    HawlSera ,

    I'll vote for someone other than Biden when there's someone else to vote for.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Which won't happen unless we call out the people who voted for him in the 2020 primaries. They made a selfish and foolish decision.

    nomous ,

    It actually won't happen until there's real grassroots support and people working locally to get people elected. Lots of people just come out once every 4 years and wonder why nothing is changing.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Why are you avoiding a conversation about the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries?

    nomous ,

    Because I'm interested in NOW and next year not choices that were made 4 years ago. Why are you obsessed with it? Every post you make in this thread is "what about the 2020 primaries!?"

    You play the card you're dealt and you keep moving forward and pushing for what you want. It's something the "left" (what passes for it) could learn from the right.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Fine. When is the appropriate time to have this conversation?

    nomous ,

    4 years ago.

    go_go_gadget ,

    People told me we could push Biden to the left and that he had the best chance of defeating Trump.

    Also they told me that wasn't the right time either. Were they wrong?

    Linkandluke ,

    Well he did win. And honestly pretty much no matter what he does in office, his most admiral feat was to stop the insanity we had the previous 4 years

    go_go_gadget ,

    I know he won in the 2020 general. I helped. I won't be helping again. I will vote 3rd party.

    Iwasondigg ,

    I literally don't care if they Weekend at Bernies Biden, I will vote for him happily if the alternative is Trump.

    ohlaph ,

    Also.

    GilgameshCatBeard ,

    Yup. Gladly and without a doubt or second thought.

    HawlSera ,

    Pretty much

    I_Has_A_Hat ,

    Biden could drop out and they could nominate a literal piece of driftwood covered in seagull shit, and I would vote for the driftwood if it were between that and Trump.

    mellowheat ,

    This might be the enlightened libertarian in me talking now, but I believe said driftwood would also be superior to Biden.

    BreadstickNinja ,

    Driftwood probably wouldn't form the best cabinet though

    mellowheat ,

    I feel like I should give you money for this comment

    gAlienLifeform OP ,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    You can always give money to the platform that made it possible - https://join-lemmy.org/donate

    mellowheat , (edited )

    That seems like a good idea, but it hurts my ethical bones to give money to such blatant leftists.

    I mean this is not just subtle dogwhistling: https://github.com/nutomic, https://github.com/dessalines

    And again, as much as I appreciate honesty, I don't think I can support this with my money.

    e: gave $20 to lemmy.world

    gAlienLifeform OP ,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    Where's the donate link for Lemmy world? I was actually looking for that, but hitting the donate button on their homepage took me to that link in already posted.

    mellowheat ,

    I found https://opencollective.com/mastodonworld via lemmy.world frontpage.

    gAlienLifeform OP ,
    @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

    Huh, I still wasn't able to find it there, but I did end up finding it through c/lemmyworld, so that's legit and I probably just need more coffee

    Thanks for the info!

    winky9827b ,

    The best surprises come from unexpected places.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Which illustrates the missing piece of this conversation: When are we going to talk about the people who voted for him in the 2020 primaries? When are we going to state, repeatedly, voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries was a selfish and foolish thing to do?

    mellowheat ,

    Then again, we can be certain that Biden won Trump. It's possible that somebody else would have, too, but we cannot be certain. What is utterly dumb in 2024 was not so much in 2020, in my opinion.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Then again, we can be certain that Biden won Trump.

    There's an argument to be made he defeated Trump because there were leftists and progressives who were willing to give him a chance. Do you feel confident he can count on those votes for a second time?

    frunch ,

    Well, first thing i would do is insult them. Then I'd tell them who they were supposed to vote for.

    When are we going to state, repeatedly, voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries was a selfish and foolish thing to do?

    Ah i see you already covered my main tactic. Now onto the spicy stuff: who's the candidate they're supposed to vote for? Or is it only important to vote for not-Biden? I'm curious who else would have crushed Trump in the election. Bernie?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Rather than attempt to defend my approach since you clearly disapprove of it help me understand what your plan is. The DNC primaries continue to produce shit candidates. How does that change?

    I'm not claiming my plan is above judgement and your critique is certainly fair. But without an alternative to compare against those concerns are moot.

    jkrtn ,

    The DNC primaries continue to produce shit candidates. How does that change?

    The Dem candidate is the representative for everyone who isn't an insane far-right theocratic fascist. You aren't going to convince anyone that they did anything wrong in 2020. People who don't like Biden today aren't the ones who voted for him in the primaries. We all voted for him anyway in the general because we don't like flushing our ballots down the toilet.

    We will always have shit candidates until the general election uses an intelligent voting system such as score or STAR.

    go_go_gadget ,

    I'm not seeing anything in your comment about an alternative plan to change the outcome. Do you have a plan for changing the general election to use the voting system to use score or STAR?

    Again, I'm okay with the critique of my approach but if you don't have one of your own then as you said "we will always have shit candidates".

    jkrtn ,

    I think if we're talking comments on the internet it is more effective to advocate for the different voting systems instead of shaming people over being wrong. But it sure is harder to imagine how either results in positive and measurable change.

    IRL We need to get more people out voting, awareness campaigns for better voting systems, and aligned candidates who will make these systems happen from the municipal to the state level. Collective action works but it will take years or decades.

    go_go_gadget ,

    That's been the plan for at least two decades. It isn't working.

    jkrtn ,

    My bad, ok, continue telling people they were stupid and wrong, that will do the trick.

    go_go_gadget ,

    It might. You don't have any objections doing that with Republicans voters on the slim chance it'll make a difference yes? Why wouldn't you employ the same strategy with people who are electing shit candidates in the primaries?

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