t3rmit3 ,

I have bad news for you, but police and State National Guards are militias. And guess who controls them? Also, rich people hire private security, and they're just Capitalist Militias.

Greg Abbott is literally using his Texas Ntl. Guard militia to usurp federal law.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

There's a massive difference between police who are imperfectly accountable to the government as a whole, which is based on a semi-corrupt system which is still imperfectly accountable to the will of the voters, versus a singular entity which is explicitly under the control of one particular politician.

(Yes I know about Sheriffs -- they are still accountable to the legal framework in a way that I strongly suspect this guy wants his not to be.)

Put it this way: When they came to take over the capitol, the majority of the capitol police fought against the rioters and everyone took as it given that the National Guard would be there to fight against the rioters. This guy wants a police force that will fight for the rioters, without anyone getting put on administrative leave or anybody reviewing bodycam footage or anything if someone on the "enemy" side is getting shot during.

t3rmit3 ,

the majority of the capitol police fought against the rioters

Yes, because they are a militia that protects the political class. Are you under the impression that "militia" means "anti-government"?

A militia is just a military force that is made up of non-soldiers. Police in the US are militarized, but they are civilians, not subject to military law. They are literally a militia.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

Are you under the impression that "militia" means "anti-government"?

Yes. Government means a civil structure which ostensibly (though in practice, not completely) represents the will of the people. A militia is an armed body accountable to one person or a small group of people, as opposed to the overall governmental and legal system. In the sense that I'm using the word, it represents a challenge to the existing government's monopoly on violence, and not in a good way.

(If you're familiar with how it works in places like India where the establishment police are often not that powerful / motivated to help, and powerful families may have their own militias who sometimes skirmish with each other, you will know the difference.)

For as many things as there are to criticize about the anti-democratic nature of the US justice system, switching to individual MAGA people having their own military power base to use to tear down the existing system is a terrifying development. The replacement of accountable law enforcement which in theory provides equal protection under the law, with a violent body which is explicitly protective of one political class only, and explicitly and unaccountably violent to anyone who would oppose it, is a key part of late-stage fascism. (The SA and SS fell into this category and were key to Hitler being able to seize power.) It's basically the last brick to fall into place before the real horrors can begin.

t3rmit3 , (edited )

Sorry, I thought it was clear that my question was rhetorical. The definition I provided is from American Heritage Dictionary. You are incorrect, it does not mean anti-government.

Government means a civil structure which ostensibly (though in practice, not completely) represents the will of the people.

Please cite your source for a definition that includes the "will of the people" part. I think you're just taking your own beliefs and turning those into definitions in your head.

Here's Merriam Webster's definitions of 'government': https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/government

Note that none of them mention the will of the people, because, as you alluded to but then just sort of glossed over, there are many forms of government which do not claim nor strive to represent the will of the governed.

In the sense that I’m using the word, it represents a challenge to the existing government’s monopoly on violence, and not in a good way.

That's cool, but that's all just your opinion. Even whether the way it challenges the government's monopoly on violence is bad is subjective to you.

switching to individual MAGA people having their own military power base

This is literally many police departments. Hell, they're even less likely to be held accountable when they kill a black person and bury their body in an unmarked grave, than they would have been if they'd just done it as the kind of militia you're envisioning.

accountable law enforcement

This is a fantasy that the ruling class maintains by occasionally throwing a couple of the 700,000+ police employed across the US to the "Justice" System to satisfy the public.

a violent body which is explicitly protective of one political class only

So, the police. Or did you mean "political party"? Because there's only one political class.

It’s basically the last brick to fall into place before the real horrors can begin.

What's so sad about this is that it implies you think that there aren't real horrors going on right now. Border Patrol are caging kids to traumatize them and their parents, prison guards are raping and beating people, police oversee literal slave labor all across the US, but as long as there's still that one step further that they could go, you'll defend them.

As long as they execute people in the street or put them in camps, and don't combine the 2, you're okay with it.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

Are you under the impression that the 1920s-era German police and colonial officers were generally friendly to the underclass?

Or, if they weren't (which is the case), that that represented a good counterargument to someone who was saying the SA represented a new type of dangerous development?

t3rmit3 ,

Are you under the impression that the 1920s-era German police and colonial officers were generally friendly to the underclass?

What in my comment did you take to in any way convey that?

And should I interpret this to mean you have no issue with/answer for anything else in my comment?

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

So what I was trying to do in focusing on the pre-Nazi German police was saying, it is possible for the US police to be unjust in all the ways you are claiming they are (which I actually don't agree with, but that's beside the point) -- and yet still for privately operated armed forces operated by MAGA Republicans to be a terrifyingly significant development. And I was bringing up the example of the SA by way of concrete example to illustrate the point.

Seems reasonable? Or no? I'm happy to talk about justice or injustice in the system as it currently exists without the new SA being added in also; I just didn't want to shift the topic completely to that instead of talking about the original topic. Can we maybe wrap up the original thing first and then switch to that?

t3rmit3 , (edited )

and yet still for privately operated armed forces operated by MAGA Republicans to be a terrifyingly significant development

MAGA people having the ability to enact violence is terrifying, period.

But they already have that- as police, as governors, as other agents of the State. That is much more terrifying than a bunch of assholes in lifted pickups, because I can legally shoot those assholes if they come for my trans nephew, but I can't if they do it as the police when Red states criminalize being LGBT+, or when they start arresting people for having or seeking abortions.

And to be clear, this Republican is not talking about operating a private militia in the way you seem to be implying, his entire plan is to deputize them under the (already MAGA) Nassau County Sheriff Anthony LaRocco. Literally making them cops. The article is likening it to a private militia, because that's what MAGA cops are.

I think the fundamental difference is that you seem to think the US government isn't still the slave-holding, genocidal government that it was when it was founded. I do.

mozz OP Admin , (edited )
mozz avatar

MAGA people having the ability to enact violence is terrifying, period.

But they already have that- as police, as governors, as other agents of the State. That is much more terrifying than a bunch of assholes in lifted pickups, because I can legally shoot those assholes if they come for my trans nephew

The point that I am making, is that they haven't come for your trans nephew yet, in an organized and trained grouping, to remove him from his parents' care and take him to somewhere where he can be reeducated or charged with a crime or both. Even in deep red states, that's still difficult to do, although in some places it's becoming not impossible.

Creating a force like this is the final step for them to be able to do it easily, outside the bounds of the normal legal system, and shoot you and suffer no consequences if you resist them. If you don't want that reality, you should be significantly more worried about this development than about the already worrying status quo.

t3rmit3 ,

outside the bounds of the normal legal system

These are deputies, they are just cops. So yes, they are outside the bounds of the legal system just like all cops are. And they're not any more or less dangerous than any other MAGA cop already out there right now. That's my point.

mozz OP Admin ,
mozz avatar

I think we have begun to go in circles (or maybe did some time ago).

Good luck with things

tiefling , (edited )

That checks out for Long Island. For how blue NYC is, Long Island is beet red. At best, Stony Brook is purple because of SUNY. I lost 20 years of my life there. I can't wait for it to sink into the ocean.

All you have to know about Long Island culture is that they elected Lee Zeldin and George Santos, and that their bridges are purposefully built too low for busses.

They also worship cops like no one else.

some_guy ,

Yes, that guy who amassed tons of power designing roads and bridges to keep poor people from getting to the beaches. I think I learned about him from a Behind the Bastards episode.

tiefling ,

Robert Moses. He has a parkway named after him

pbjamm ,
@pbjamm@beehaw.org avatar

Wasnt Robert Moses also the bastard responsible for all the "urban renewal" projects that bulldozed poor/black neighborhoods to build freeways?

baggins ,
@baggins@beehaw.org avatar

UK here. Is this really true?

What a scumbag. I really despise rich types like that who think they are superior to everyone else.

tesseract ,

Oh! They have been at it for at least half a century now. There are numerous documentaries about it on YouTube alone.

some_guy ,

Here's the fucker. I guess there's some debate about it, given quick searches that I just ran. I don't have time to deep dive before work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/10/robert-moses-saga-racist-parkway-bridges/

Synthuir ,

He was Parks Commissioner. Did everything in his power to not build parks in Harlem. Known for giving personal touches to parks that reflected the character of the neighborhoods they were in. When he built Riverside Park, the point of the park closest to Harlem was monkey themed.

baggins ,
@baggins@beehaw.org avatar

I read a bit about him. Horrible racist bastard.

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