I absolutely support Ukraine in every matter but it is such a weird internet thing that portrays all Ukrainians in unison willing to fight this war. Or that everyone likes Zelensky. For them the war is much less black and white than for us. From all the refugees I met (and being part of the Russian opposition and working closely with the Ukrainian support group in my city I know a lot) not one supports Ukraine to keep on fighting.
Of course that's still not a representative group and I don't want to say no Ukrainians support or fully support fighting. And I'm sure there are hardliners who want to fight to the bitter end, but also a lot of people seem to have made peace with the idea that Ukraine lost or see a defeat as inevitable, and just don't want the conflict to last.
As my hairdresser from Donetsk said: I don't care whether my mother lives now in Ukraine or Russia, I just want her to live. I want to visit her. My best friend from Sumy cannot stand Zelensky and calls him a corrupt asshole who is not better than the rest every time she gets the chance. None of these people support Russia or want Russia to win. For clarity - I also don't and tbh I was even kind of surprised to learn their opinions. Victory for Ukraine and Freedom for Russia, but man, not all people want to invest everything and not make horrible and unfair compromises. I currently have two brothers in law who, without prior experience (and one unlawfully because of the amount of kids he has), are now fighting on the front in Luhansk/Donetsk. They just want to go home. Their loyalty is to their families, not to a government or a country.
I understand that I will be downvoted into oblivion but I stand by it; it is obscure to assume that the Ukrainian people is not divided on this issue.
Yes, but the libs thousands of miles away are determined to fight to the last Ukrainian, no matter how many die, because it was never about them in the first place. Their priority is furthering the geopolitical interests of the ruling class, which they have confused with the interests of themselves and the Ukrainian people.
The laws and living conditions aren't substantially better in one than the other. None of this was ever worth fighting a war over, for any side. It's hardly surprising that ordinary people would rather give up some land than get conscripted. It's not as if the people saying not to give up an inch are lining up to put their own lives on the line.
I hear what you're saying, but I think that as a human that thinks that democracy and human rights are like pretty important, it's hard for me not to support the people I see opposing a system like Russia's.
And yeah I get that Ukraine's democracy has problems, and Russia is probably not as bad as western media would have us believe, but I can't believe I'm so deceived that democracies shouldn't resist imperial aggression.
It sucks that ordinary people get their lives destroyed, but we should blame Russia, and support Ukrainians in resisting.
And yeah I know you didn't say we shouldn't, and yeah of course a lot of Ukrainians want the war to just end. I don't know, it seems like lots still aren't ready to give up.
Russia is probably not as bad as western media would have us believe
Oh it's probably worse xD Except the support of the war, this is over portrayed. If Putin died or the war was suddenly over, no one would give a crap.
I agree with everything you're saying. We should support Ukraine to the fullest. Funnily enough it seems like I end up being the "hard liner" amongst my friends. But of course I am; I desperately want Russia to lose because this is the only way that Russia can have a new start.
The question I have started asking myself is:
When we support democracies - something we should absolutely do - can we rule over the will of the democracy we are trying to protect? Can and should we force Ukraine to keep on fighting if a democratic majority of the people were against it? (Not saying it is a majority, I cannot know that.) It is easy for us to say we want to support Ukraine to the fullest. Of course we do. As you said, supporting Ukraine is supporting democracy and freedom, but our support costs us money and weapons and maybe some inner political tensions. It doesn't cause us to get drafted and it doesn't destroy our infrastructure. We aren't supplying soldiers in this conflict, the most crucial "resource", we just give locals weapons and ammunition and tell them to fight for their freedom.
Maybe you have heard that Zelensky cancelled the next presidential elections and is staying in power. To me, this makes sense. Having a presidential election, let alone a new president take over, during wartime, seems insane. My Zelensky bashing friend has a different take on that, saying he would never be reelected and he knows that. From the beginning he painted a picture of victory, no matter the costs, and is not willing to back down. People want the option of real negotiations and not for him to keep up the image of the president with the balls of steel.
Re: popular support for the war amongst Ukrainians in Ukraine: yeah we can't really know, and of course they can't have an election.
Re: zelensky's attitude: I do think that the 'never surrender' approach is actually a very useful negotiation tactic and I don't know how you'd get people to fight at all if you tell them their just fighting for slightly better terms in a treaty...
Supporting Ukraine goes beyond supporting democracy. If we allow them to lose, we hurt the international rules based order itself. The order which says that you can't invade your neighbour and take their land for no reason.
If Putin gets away with annexing parts of Ukraine, now anyone can invade their neighbours, because they will get away with it. We will see more invasions and atrocities globally in the near future if we let this happen.
Oh god they're still at it? I had forgotten that name, they were one of the first I ended up filtering after they told me I wasn't Chinese enough to have opinions on China.
I mostly just ignore their posts, but there are good posts mixed in. I point out their hypocrisy every now and then to be predictably called a western bootlicker or something along with a prefab response of irrelevant stats.
It doesn’t matter if you talk about them in other threads; they don’t actually browse Lemmy. All comments are limited to their own posts.
the deliberate killing or severe mistreatment of a large number of people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group:
"a campaign of genocide" · "news of genocides went unreported"
Ukraine is a nation and Ukrainians are ethnic group.
This conversation and this whole thing of why it was the West's fault because Ukraine should have done exactly what Russia demanded and saved themselves all the bloodshed, absolutely infuriated me. Above all proportion for what's reasonable to happen from talking to someone on the internet. I'm still getting pissed about it just reading it now, a week later.
They have no other motive except to give the appearance of 'legitimate' dissent and to waste time, like Fox News putting on some dumb fuck to say "But SOME SCIENTISTS DISAGREE that GLOBAL WARMING is real!" Best to dismiss them as the fascist fucks they are and move on.
Yeah. I feel like partly too it's like those hypnosis experiments where people will invent literally just any nonsense to explain why they did / said something, and it makes perfect sense to them -- it's like now that I have staked out position X, I'm going to just wrap whatever nonsense around it that I need to, to make it all consistent after the fact.
Like, as related to that whole analogy I asked the guy about in the thread I linked to — yeah sure, if someone came to your house and did that, you'd totally do whatever they asked and it would be wrong of you to try to resist. Absolutely dude. 100%. Makes perfect sense and I feel silly for questioning it now.
Because most of the “leftists” flooding this platform are from troll farms. Russia and China are pushing hard on their troll farms to try to get Trump back by any means necessary. He makes America less stable and weaker.
Not nothing, and Lemmy is larger than most forums. But yeah, I think that what we see on here is almost entirely useful idiots buying into the talking points of such propaganda and troll farms, and then willingly spreading it of their own accord, rather than being actual paid actors themselves.
It feels fairly similar to 4chan’s transitional period, /r/conspiracy’s transitional period, and twitter’s transitional period. They’re absolutely being fed half-digested talking points from somewhere. It’s way too contrived not to notice. Which is to say, I agree entirely.
It's so much easier to establish a troll farm on Lemmy than on Reddit (which is flooded regardless), so it makes a great playground for psyop operations
