Andrew Tate isn't creating these young men out of well adjusted people.
Young men today face a mountain of issues with zero sympathy from the people or institutions around them. And grifters prey on these men.
Having grown up in the "teach boys not to rape" era of progrssive rhetoric, it's actually insane to see all these people just insist being a guy's world is all sunshine and rainbows and all these men are just awful people falling of their own accord.
Young men get told some pretty damaging things growing up, even from progressive people.
Everyone has problems, lots of people are come of age all kinds of fucked up, and we can't fix this by implying it's all their own doing.
On top of all that, these days most rejection of men happens before there is even any opportunity for the men say anything. With dating apps putting so much emphasis on looks (a very small minority of users of these apps do anything but look at the first photo before swiping left or right), and surveys finding that women consider over 80% of men less attractive than 'medium' (i e. a 3 or lower on a 7 point scale), mean that tons of men reach that conclusion in the final panel simply from getting no traction with women at all, making whether they're a Tate acolyte or whatever not even relevant.
Young men today face a mountain of issues with zero sympathy from the people or institutions around them. And grifters prey on these men
Idk, I don't feel like young women are really offered any kind of safety net or support system that isn't being offered to boys.
it's actually insane to see all these people just insist being a guy's world is all sunshine and rainbows and all these men are just awful people falling of their own accord.
This is the thing, I constantly hear how awful young men are being treated. I don't ever really hear any specific reasoning that can't be explained by other means other than sexism against men.
Imo this is one of the first generations of young men, especially young white men, that weren't born on third base. The men's right movement is a reactionary movement that's just upset about being placed on an equal footing, and then falling to achieve the same results of previous generations of young white men.
That feeling of slowly rolling a stone up a hill all day as others unbound by such heavy burdens briskly walk by is the same feeling poc and women have experienced in this country since it's inception. You aren't being treated worse than everyone else, it's just that equality feels like prosecution to those who have traditionally lived charmed lives. Welcome to the jungle, I hope you learn to enjoy your stay. I think the affectations of the moneyed class have ended, they have decided they don't have to keep up the charade. We're all the same to them now, and will all be exploited as such.
Ignoring the issues people face becuase they come from what you determine to be a "privileged" class is just another form of bigotry.
Young men don't stand to benifit from the same patriarchal systems we do, nor do we stand to benifit from the patriarchal systems our fathers did. And even if it did, one privileged doesn't nullify the issues faced by other inequalities such as race, wealth, class, ability.
The issues they face are real reguardless of what privilege they have or are assumed to have.
Equality should be about giving every individual a fair chance at life regardless of who they are or what they came from. Not some team sport where "one side" must be crushed under to goosestep of self proclaimed progress seekers.
Ignoring the issues people face becuase they come from what you determine to be a "privileged" class is just another form of bigotry.
Simply stating that the problems are not intrinsic to being male is not ignoring the problem.
Young men don't stand to benifit from the same patriarchal systems we do, nor do we stand to benifit from the patriarchal systems our fathers did.
Who is we? What I'm saying is that young males are not being hurt anymore than any other demographic, they just aren't culturally inoculated to it, and so they think they're worse off.
And even if it did, one privileged doesn't nullify the issues faced by other inequalities such as race, wealth, class, ability.
I never claimed it did?
issues they face are real reguardless of what privilege they have or are assumed to have.
Like? As I said, I keep hearing these blanket statements attesting to unique issues, but no one claims what they are or how they occur.
Equality should be about giving every individual a fair chance at life regardless of who they are or what they came from.
Do you think that we are living in some sort of post scarcity society? If there is an elevated class, its only means of elevation is to stand on the heads of it's "equal"counterparts.
Not some team sport where "one side" must be crushed under to goosestep of self proclaimed progress seekers.
Lol, and those who stood on our heads suddenly proclaimed themselves victims. How do you think they stand elevated if not by crushing down the competition?
It's only goose-stepping when the boot is on your face, when its someone's else's face they're told to turn the other cheek.
Nobody is arguing for "elevation", nobody in their right state of mind anyway, and I'm not asking anyone to turn their cheek to anyone wrong doings done to them. However, when it's men who feel wronged you ask them to turn the other cheek. Man up. Deal with it.
The fact of the matter is it's exactly this dogmatic rejecting of men that pushes them towards people like Andrew Tate. If the progressive zeitgeist refuses to listen to someone and they will follow anyone else who will. We shouldn't tolerate the intolerant, but if we truly seek to defeat it we must understand it and treat the systemic issues that cause it to arise. It's not the romantic ideal of the rebel taking down the empire in a victorious display of self-satisfaction, but it is the method that gets lasting results.
I've never stood on anyone's heads, least of all yours. I'd appreciate it if you could at least treat the next generation with the same respect.
it’s just that equality feels like prosecution to those who have traditionally lived charmed lives
I cannot speak for "that country", assuming you mean the US, as I don't live there. That said, I think people don't have actual past lives as a reference. If my grandfather or father lived in a different world, this can at most create expectations, but cannot be really generating a feeling of prosecution, because the current one is the only life I have actually lived and I know.
Then there is another issue, which is that in reality there are a lot of factors that determine whether you are born "in third base". Gender, historically, has been one of them, but it's far from being a guarantee. However, the political discourse often flattens this issue and makes it almost two-dimensional. If you are a white man, you are privileged, period. Fact is, there are tons of white man that are absolutely not privileged, and are also victim of an unequal and oppressive society. These people are substantially alienated because their voice is simply not represented anywhere.
My leftist interpretation is that some of the egalitarian discourse (feminism, LGBT rights etc.) has been to some extent swallowed by the status quo, and lost a lot of the revolutionary potential it had, becoming more focused on individual perception and rights, rather than on systemic issues that therefore could capture also the dynamics of a white man being also oppressed, even if from a different angle.
In other words, if feminism is purely focused on battles of women as a group of individuals, and not as part of a system that oppresses them within a wider mechanism, then oppressed people that don't strictly belong to that category have a much harder time to see in women a reflection of their own oppression.
Basically, a realization such as:
We’re all the same to them now, and will all be exploited as such.
was true already decades (centuries) ago, and that's why lots of feminist battles were linked to socialism and leftist ideologies. This is nothing new, really, and forcing to read the current issues only from the racial perspective or only from the gender perspective (etc.) makes it much harder to build solidarity between groups who are instead left to fight battles within the system, without a perspective or a struggle to move past it.
Have you been on Reddit lately? Every post has about 50% of comments that are incel type statements just talking about how they’ll be forever alone, they have no good traits, etc. it’s fucking pathetic
I'm not a Rogan meathead, but women are absolutely super choosey these days. Dating apps have given women an inflated sense of their own (dating) worth, and they largely want tall, handsome, well-off, slightly older men.
Of course I'm painting with a broad brush here, but this post is talking in generalities anyway.
I’m not a Rogan meathead, but women are absolutely super choosey these days. Dating apps have given women an inflated sense of their own (dating) worth, and they largely want tall, handsome, well-off, slightly older men.
If this is happening even a little bit it is because of the distorting forces of capitalism and addictive phone apps are warping peoples interactions on dating apps.
I promise you, if you are genuinely a pretty nice human being who tries to be a good person there are plenty of women out there who want to fuck you. Really, the world is full of horny women who get hot and bothered by realizing that cute man they just met is also really sweet and kind. You don’t need fit any particular idea of a man, I understand it feels like you do and that is an awful feeling but it is a feeling not the reality.
Also women are probably more choosey because they are by large exhausted from work places that grind them down, trying to make rent, healthcare bullshit and any number of other struggles of modern life, just like you. They want to make sure that use their vanishing amount of free time, energy and money pursuing somebody that isn’t going to be a dead end.
If you want the quickest route to more men finding women who are interested in them, then support unionization, the social safety net, workers rights, and progressive legislation on housing. We need to take better care of people so that they have more free time, energy and money to pursue love and sex.
The comments are quite saddening, and also quite worrying.
This isn't to put women's issues down, but men have problems too. There's a reason why young men turn to these grifters and get manipulated by them.
Even above all of that, assuming you don't agree, it's a problem. We're building up generations of uneducated and toxic men led by these role models. We can't just shrug that off and say it's not our issue, because at some point it is going to be our issue.
This is a problem that I really feel like gets no attention.
With all the focus on women’s rights, young men feel neglected. And modern feminism does imply that men can’t really talk about issues because that comes from a place of privilege.
This isn’t the only time it happened. Male victims of sexual harassment and assault were pretty much entirely shut out of #MeToo.
So, young men feel marginalized and they will listen to whoever makes sense.
modern feminism does imply that men can't really talk about issues?
not to be all "source?" but — source?
This statement feels full of selection bias. Let's assume Angela Davis literally said this, does that mean Judith Butler agrees?
But I imagine it's more that this was said by a semi-anonymous rage bait account on a social media platform.
That's not to say such things aren't hurtful - they are - but in the same way FirstnameBunchOfNumbers on Twitter says stupid shit all the time - eg all unions are all always bad and are literally communism - that doesn't speak for the entirety of tradespeoples.
I'd much rather actually discuss the points raised. I was interested to discuss whether the person I was replying to (might be you - can't tell on mobile) thought that what they said reflected all feminist thought, and whether that was current, new, or had always been there since Wollstonecraft etc
Do you really want to go into the difference between the "notallmen" epithet and the concept that because someone accuses a group of something does not mean that they are guilty of it nor does it mean that group is a monolith? The conversation seems fairly straightforward and doesn't really need elaborating on. But I guess if you genuinely did have questions about the difference between "notallmen" and "accusing a group of something they didn't do" I'd be willing to attempt to answer reasonable questions on the topic.
And modern feminism does imply that men can’t really talk about issues because that comes from a place of privilege.
I mean yeah there are shitty feminists like there are shitty types of all people but no most modern movements of feminism that are considered seriously by academics and people concerned with gender, sexuality and politics absolutely DO not imply men can’t talk about issues.
Intersectional Feminism isn’t just about empowering women, it’s about creating structures that defend and empower everybody including women.
A feminist might be exhausted from toxic masculinity and the power imbalances of men vs women in society and in the moment not respond well to you bringing up issues with men, but feminists definitely by and large do care about men and the issues they face because at the end of the day they are just the flip side of the problems women face.
It’s all part of the same problem and the only way to fix it is to take better care of each other, which includes men, it includes everyone.
For me, the reason it is hard out there is because I am super careful when trying to pick someone up and they end up mistaking my pickup lines for friendly banter and I end up getting friendzoned.
Plus I am super choosy myself and take long to crush on someone and then take super long to get over a crush. (o﹏o)
But I agree that listening to toxic males like Tate will likely not make it easier.
Because these men are insecure in one way or another. Even though many of them are privileged and have good looks, it's still not enough for them. They're always looking to prove themselves to people who don't care about them, and impress people they don't like.
Reminds me of a post I saw yesterday, of a white supremacist finding out the german catholic descendants in red 'murica don't share his ass-backwards views of race.
Had an older co-worker who kept saying that Andrew Tate had some real gems and that he was just telling young men to give up videogames and hit the gym if they wanted some self worth.
So one day I looked him dead in the eye and gave him my best impersonation of a 1950's radio voice and said. " Young ladies if you don't work on refining and improving your womanly figure with clean living and labourous exercise and not stop wasting your time reading novels then how will you ever expect to catch a husband?!"
I would like to say that I scored a point but he just sputtered and went on being horrible.
Andrew Tate is the absolute worst, but it is also a fact - one that has been true for all of recorded history - that competing with each other for female attention is a generally popular male motivation. And when a guy doesn't do those things, he can expect mockery. Do you have anything nice to say about neckbeards? No? Didn't think so.
I can’t think of anything nice to say about neckbeards but I can say some lovely things about some guys I know who spend more time playing games than working out
I mean the premise is flawed. The "neckbeards" are not intrinsically unlovable but they are getting duped into being annoying and problematic to people.
When you treat the attention of any kind of people as a status symbol or a commodity to use for bragging rights or prestige for others it's not exactly fair to the people whom you are essentially using. You see the same principle with famous people. Being in any kind of relationship with someone, even friends, soley because you like what their association does for your image is a jerk thing to do
The people who do the mocking are every bit at fault for being assholes. Only when the person being mocked accepts the assholes premise as true and care about their acceptance do they also become an asshole in turn.
Like "being nice to people" is transactional. It doesn't really look at emotional needs. The so called neckbeards think they are being nice... But the issue is that nice is superficial. Nice will get you promotions at your customer service job but it ignores emotional need.
The fact so a contingent is so poisoned by so called "benevolent" sexism is a feature not a bug.
You're being downvoted for pointing out human nature. You're not wrong, we compete for females. We're animals, even if people want to lie and claim we've progressed. We have not.
One of the best things taught to me growing up is that you don't have to prove yourself to anyone. There are shallow people, but why waste time with them? Why not go with people who are more open-minded, have good control to not give into superficial and shallow biological instincts, and will accept you for who you are?
So i take it if you fancy a new "female" you kill her previous partner in a fight and then her children with that partner, so she will focuse her attention on the children you make with her. If necessary by raping her? Also if there is no nee females available you will rape and make new children with your own daughters?
Are you trying to use this argument to deny evolution or evolutionary instinct? Cuz your attempted argument makes no sense. Trying to claim humans aren't driven to procreate is simply contrary to all available information.
Are you not understanding that social and cultural evolution is part of evolution and that there might be good reason why not murdering and rapeing each other like animals do, is an evolutionary advantage?
Social evolution is a wonderful thing, it's not stronger than your biological imperative though. Maybe one day, but that days not today. The guy is still going to chase the virile woman and the woman is still going to seek comfort and safety.
Well ya, you're a freak of nature by literal definition, of course you wouldn't agree. Humans, like all animals have a drive to reproduce. You don't have that drive, you're not relevant.
You're going to interpret this literal fact as homophobia too which is kinda funny if you knew me LoL.
