Israeli state TV proudly broadcasting prisoner abuse ( files.catbox.moe )

Who even needs investigative journalists with hidden cameras when there's Israeli state television

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e5495d1a-05d8-40d6-a984-d76be556cf32.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f1388663-7372-461c-8d6c-ae0c9a6abe57.png

reverendsteveii ,

the lesson Israel is gonna learn from this is how to separate the "most moral army in the world/we have a right to defend ourselves" propaganda intended for the global audience from the "we children of light shall bathe in the blood of the animals/no palestinian is innocent every man, woman and child must be tortured to death" propaganda that, until now, was kept internal.

juxta ,

Oh noes! A video released by thr gubament meant to piss people off, this is only going to cause more violenceses and distrust of that state and the peopleses in it.

To be honest, i could hardly watch that video, all the actors in it where glowing so bright.

dangblingus ,

Your comment is asinine and doesnt reinforce your propaganda.

juxta ,

YOUre PRopAGAnDAs!

Colour_me_triggered ,

Can someone link to the video? I tried finding it on youtube but can't. It would be good to have some context.

IndustryStandard OP , (edited )

Twitter has posts about it. It's all rather sectioned apart I haven't seen the full video.
Here's another video

A twitter post: https://twitter.com/CensoredNws/status/1759707936937456108

Colour_me_triggered ,

Ok so straight out of the Guantanamo bay playbook then?

reverendsteveii ,

we teach their army how to torture, their army teaches our police how to murder, one hand washes the blood off the other

DScratch ,

"What was on Oct 7th will not return."

Pretty sure this is how you fast-track yourself into another one, chief.

grue ,

Well, obviously. How else are they gonna manufacture their next causus belli?

IndustryStandard OP ,

Also here's the IDF broadcasting themselves arresting random people in Gaza who end up there.

The IDF seems to imply that they get tortured into saying they are Hamas

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9a7dff6d-e461-4efc-babd-97c608f493b0.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/05c53d72-67b0-4401-8602-08eac3be4c0d.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/02158fdd-ce92-4311-84b6-292f9b7ebd71.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f8faf5b6-c440-4638-8263-fea240d1b321.png

Milk_Sheikh ,

Even the old “state v non-state actor” issue is clear on this one - irregardless of human morality and basic decency:

  • If legit army, they must get full protections (IDF says no, int’l law is dubious for Al-Qassam - Hamas has command structure and salaries, but often skips uniforms and hides among the populace)
  • If not legit army, must be treated with protection offered to civilians UNTIL a court gets involved and adjudicates them to not be just civilians

Article 11 - Protection of persons

  1. The physical or mental health and integrity of persons who are in the power of the adverse Party or who are interned, detained or otherwise deprived of liberty as a result of a situation referred to in Article 1 shall not be endangered by any unjustified act or omission

[further down in same text]

Article 45 - Protection of persons who have taken part in hostilities

  1. A person who takes part in hostilities and falls into the power of an adverse Party shall be presumed to be a prisoner of war… Should any doubt arise as to whether any such person is entitled to the status of prisoner of war, he shall continue to have such status and, therefore, to be protected by the Third Convention and this Protocol until such time as his status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

  2. If a person who has fallen into the power of an adverse Party is not held as a prisoner of war and is to be tried by that Party for an offence arising out of the hostilities, he shall have the right to assert his entitlement to prisoner-of-war status before a judicial tribunal and to have that question adjudicated…[more legalese and closing loopholes]…

  3. Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol. In occupied territory, any such person, unless he is held as a spy, shall also be entitled, notwithstanding Article 5 of the Fourth Convention, to his rights of communication under that Convention.

cheese_greater ,

Irregardless

Just say regardless. The ir- negates something that already negates in the way you want. Its only fun to say, it very unfunly negates everything you say after it

Tristaniopsis ,

This is what it would’ve been like in Germany 1943 if the Nazis had television.

zooi ,

Do you have the slightest idea what the fuck you're even comparing this to

Tristaniopsis ,

Yup. Thanks for checking.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

Yes. We're comparing two countries run by Lebensraum human trash.

quafeinum ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    Man Israel was literally founded on a successful Lebensrsaum scheme.

    mosiacmango ,

    The fact that Israel has intentionally put itself in the position to be compared to the horrors of Nazi Germany is the problem, bud.

    UltraMagnus0001 , (edited )

    I can't understand how these people are so blinded by the facts right in front of their faces. I guess the hate is strong

    ICastFist ,
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    My guess is numbers. "Only" 28k palestinians vs. over 6 million jews. Also that they're not being killed en masse after capture (although it really feels like Netanyahu would love to do that)

    Toneswirly ,

    Seems fair to me

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    That sort of comment is to be expected on Lemmy. A lot of very ignorant people here. Obviously the Holocaust wasn't as well taught in Australia as it was in the Netherlands.

    Micromot ,

    It is pretty much something the nazis would do though

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    What, not give people a mattress?

    Micromot ,

    Keep them in shackles in very small cells with nothing, not even mattresses or food that is more than bread. This is subhuman treatment. A lot of prisons in other countries which is equally fucked up but that is not relevant for this conversation

    TheFriar ,

    I mean, I think people go to the Nazi well a little too frequently. It’s almost like, “you’re on my side, or you’re a Nazi.”

    Now, this has made it very confusing in recent years when we had real-ass nazis trying to claim power. But pointing that out became muddied when held up to the years and years of “Nazi” labels being thrown around.

    However, it’s not completely out of line to be making genocide claims. Because…I mean…what’s happening in Gaza is pretty standard genocidal behavior. But with the nazis being the standard bearer of what people see as genocide, people usually only express it as “this is the holocaust.”

    And if you think it’s okay to do this to prisoners—I mean, you’re belittling abuse by making some flippant remark about keeping six people tied on their hands and knees in a four foot room while keeping them malnourished—then you’re only missing one aspect of why people are calling what’s happening a genocide. The other aspect of that is all of the rhetoric coming from Israel that shows the sort of “sub-human” othering of the Palestinian people along with the seemingly complete annihilation of this culture and people.

    The “no mattresses” thing isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening within the context of prisoner abuse. Which is happening within the context of and overwhelming force keeping a specific group penned into a smaller and smaller area, while they seemingly indiscriminately bomb a cultural group nearly out of existence, while there is system-wide othering of this group of people, and they’re spoken of as if they’re sub-human. And treated that way.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Imagine yourself in the place of one of these men. How would you feel? Would that be acceptable to you? Would that be acceptable to your parents? Would it be acceptable to your spouse to not know where you are being held or why? Would it be acceptable for you as a lawyer to get no legal representation because a colonizer decided you are going to be tortured and humiliated for being X ethnicity?

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    No-one is debating that the IDF are way over the line, but the comment made was comparing a picture of a masked dude saying the prisoners should be made to sleep without a mattress to the industrialised murder of an entire ethnic group over the majority of a continent with the sole purpose of eradicating them.

    deft ,

    lol people are debating that and this is an ethic cleansing of a region. they'd do the whole continent if they could they've literally said this

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    It's one symptom we see in systems like Nazi Germany, and apartheid Israel. Hope that helps you understand what people are complaining about.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    Yellow cheese and bread would be fine with me if I was in prison as an enemy combatant and suspected terrorist.

    Such detention is usually indefinite, or at least usually lasts until whatever conflict ends, and POWs usually do not have a right to counsel.

    Stress positions are torture and that's not a subject I know much about from an international law standpoint. If it's not illegal it should be.

    But here you are once again without enough information to form a strong opinion, getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what's happening in this video, which you do not. Are they stress positions that the inmates are forced to maintain for hours at a time, or were they told to get on the ground with their heads down and legs crossed so the cell could be opened safely for whoever that is touring the facility?

    The video and audio are cut up and spliced. You have no idea what the speaker is talking about when he says "this is how it should be after October 7." Does he mean they should be in prison? Does he mean they should not be moving or talking? Does he mean they should be eating only white bread and yellow cheese? Does he mean they should be in stress positions being tortured? Who knows? Not me, not you. And this is how we got here: people reacting to the worst half of a story and automatically assuming the worst possible explanation. That's just not how I operate; I can see that I do not have enough information to have a strong opinion about this video or photos, so I don't have one.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what’s happening in this video, which you do not.

    I think you shut off your humanity and regard for others in that sentence.

    It's amazing the denial mode you enter when it's about Israel's crystal clear genocide. Suddenly you can't see amymore.

    Maggoty ,

    Jesus. Even the US gives "enemy combatants" MREs. They are done and out of the fight. There's no reason to mistreat them at that point. It's just cruelty for the sake of it and no it's not legal.

    I had to guard detainees before they were taken to the rear, and after searching them they keep their clothes and get an MRE and a bottle of water. You just sit there in silence then. Nothing else is required. The fact that they're in an armed camp handcuffed and hooded is enough to keep them quiescent. And once they're in a prison there's certainly no reason to treat them worse than we did in the field.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    If you've got them to spare, sure. I suppose you are right. Bread and cheese alone is no way to feed someone and has plenty of negative health consequence. I still don't know enough about what the photo shows. How long does this diet persist for, is this a factor of intentional choice or is what they have extra in a warzone!

    And to your second point, how about if the muckity mucks come for a tour and inspection, which is what this video seems to me to show, or if this is the intake holding or transport procedure?

    I appreciate your perspective on this.

    Maggoty ,

    If Israel doesn't have food to spare then there are far larger problems not being discussed. Also, if this is what their leadership expects then that's a big problem.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    Good points. I hope if the leadership was touring around and saw this position that it was indeed only for very temporary purposes, such as a bang-up or transport.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    this is the daily reality of Palestinians in prison.... you are just too in love with Israel to admit they do evil and for the life of me I wish I knew why.... why are Palestinians not worth a nickle in your eyes?

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    "Only for a temporary purpose," says the person ignoring Palestinian suffering in Israeli prisons.

    Here enlighten yourself by the words of Israeli Jews because the words of Palestinians like me isn't good enough for you:

    The IDF keeps a Palestinian tied to a tree until 5AM: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/27690

    Children younger than 10-12 handcuffed by the IDF for no good reason: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/48694

    The IDF using Palestinian homes as a military point just to humiliate them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3DOZXEj0fA

    The IDF torturing handcuffed and blindfolded Palestinians and posting it on TikTok: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugjKevmlsY4

    The IDF waiting to ambush a TWELFE-YEAR-OLD child and then kill him: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/84876 (How brave!!!)

    Children as small as 12 are in Israeli prisons for no crimes and with no legal representation. I thought that should horrify you as a lawyer. I really thought you would care about that 🙂 but I have lost all faith in you considering me or people who look like me to be human beings.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    Have you ever heard of act propensity evidence? You're again allowing your emotional thinking to make wild leaps in logic.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re again allowing your emotional thinking to make wild leaps in logic.

    Wild leaps of logic? That Israel is committing genocide and torturing Palestinians in a prison iin their apartheid ethnostate?

    I often wonder how you take yourself seriously.
    These are examples of torture and humiliation performed by the IDF, the dossier is bigger than you can imagine, but you will conveniently wave that "act propensity evidence" card or that other "but these are just reports" card so you can protect yourself from the emotional impact of admitting that a genocide is underway.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    If you can't even see what leap of logic you are making with blatant act propensity evidence, it's because you are not good at evaluating information, and I think it's because you have no ability to think rationally when you're uncomfortable with the subject matter. Why not leave yet thinking to people who know how to do it?

    I think this is where you and I part ways. Your rambling about Israel and America not being democracies is a bridge too far for me. It's like you're a flat earther.

    snek , (edited )
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Why not leave yet thinking to people who know how to do it?

    🤣

    Your rambling about Israel and America not being democracies is a bridge too far for me.

    Bud, are you fucking kidding me? How irrational is it to erect your own bias wall? "Democracy" is not above criticism, and "Democracy" without Palestinians is a racist farce. I never said current America is not a democracy, since everyone CAN vote. I said America when African Americans and women couldn't vote was not a democracy... And I'm saying that Israel, a racist apartheid state that jails and kills and tortures Palestinians because of their ethnicity and doesn't allow them to vote is not a fucking democracy. You can't do apartheid and democracy at the same time. That's fucking insane!

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    That would be insane. Which one of those two things are you wrong about then?

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Which one of those two things are you wrong about then?

    Neither.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, it's all of political science who is wrong! /s

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Political scientists say an apartheid state is a democracy? I don't think so.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    Or, political scientists say......what's the other option?

    You've almost got it.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    You think all political scientists say that Israel isn't an apartheid state? Sounds like BS to me.

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    All of them? No. The overwhelming majority of credible, professional political scientists, though.

    snek , (edited )
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    "The overwhelming majority of credible, professional political scientists"

    Are you sure? Can you list some of these?

    Ample examples of the contrary:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    @JustZ Oops should I just assume you were overwhelmed by the fact that political scientists, diplomats, and human rights organizations CALL THIS AN APARTHEID STATE?

    Here is the link again if you missed it:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

    It's just Wikipedia.... surely you will now admit you are wrong? Or will this all just be another "collection of reports" that you don't like?

    Of course I'm expecting a long block of text where you dodge each point and beat around the bush and fail to admit the crimes of Israel.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Do you even know for sure these men are Hamss? Or do you just believe any "report"?

    Asking since you seem to think criminals deserve no human rights. As a lawyer I'm sure this isn't your professional opinion but somehow it's good enough for Palestinians 🙂

    And btw was America a democracy when women and black people couldn't vote? This was a question on another thread about a similar topic

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    No I have no idea if they are Hamas. I hope they aren't doing this to people who just want to live their lives and I don't think they are.

    As to your other question if you're going to make me respond I think it's a revealing question for you to ask. It obviously was then and still is, without serious debate by political scientists of that day and this day. You sound as if you're asking me if the world was flat some arbitrary amount of time ago, it wasn't then and it still isn't. And don't get emotional with me, I didn't make up all of political science.

    Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.

    As I've said I appreciate you and your entire perspective on this and mine is obviously different. I'm about people, and if you must know I represent people exclusively and for me, lasting civil rights, enshrined in primary law and custom, with the consent of the people and checks and balances. It's incompatible with religious extremists out there chanting death to American and death to Israel. And that's fine until they start crossing borders to kill civilians and talking about having their own country.

    It's not going to happen.

    snek , (edited )
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    No I have no idea if they are Hamas. I hope they aren’t doing this to people who just want to live their lives and I don’t think they are.

    Why don't you think they are? What makes you dismiss everything a Palestinian doctor or ambulance staff would say as "mere reports", but when it's the IDF or Israel you say shit like "and I don’t think they are."

    Why? What's the difference? What makes you think they aren't doing this, when everything else in the news we have been seeing points to the opposite: that torture in Israeli prisons is alive and well and some have even been killed in custody.

    It obviously was then and still is, without serious debate by political scientists of that day and this day.

    So just to get this right:

    YOU BELIEVE THAT AMERICA WAS A DEMOCRACY EVEN WHEN WOMEN WERE SEEN AS SUBHUMAN AND NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE AND WHEN BLACK PEOPLE WERE SEEN AS SLAVES AND COULDN'T VOTE?

    Well, buddy, then I understand you fully. You're actually just someone totally okay with fascism as long as its dressed in sheep's clothing pretending to be a democracy. Regardless or your treatment of women and black people in daily life, what you said is quite racist and sexist given the context. I guess after this I don't really see why I should keep barking up your tree to see if you consider Palestinians like me to be human beings... you clearly say you will but you never walk the walk just like with women and black people. 🙂

    EDIT: even the women sufrage movement agrees with me, and without this argument wonen would not vote today in America:

    Wilson ignored the protests for six months, but on June 20, 1917, as a Russian delegation drove up to the White House, suffragists unfurled a banner which stated: "We women of America tell you that America is not a democracy. Twenty million women are denied the right to vote. President Wilson is the chief opponent of their national enfranchisement". [295] Another banner on August 14, 1917, referred to "Kaiser Wilson" and compared the plight of the German people with that of American women. With this manner of protest, the women were subject to arrests and many were jailed. Another ongoing tactic of the National Woman's Party was watchfires, which involved burning copies of President Wilson's speeches, often outside the White House or in the nearby Lafayette Park. The Party continued to hold watchfires even as the war began, drawing criticism from the public and even other suffrage groups for being unpatriotic.[296] On October 17, Alice Paul was sentenced to seven months and on October 30 began a hunger strike, but after a few days prison authorities began to force feed her.[295] After years of opposition, Wilson changed his position in 1918 to advocate women's suffrage as a war measure.[297] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage)

    And don’t get emotional with me, I didn’t make up all of political science.

    And you dare gaslight me! Wow!

    Democracy is when PEOPLE have the POWER via voting... not *WHITE PEOPLE AND MEN.

    Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.

    What the fuck would that mean to me as a women if I wasn't allowed to vote in this system!??!?!?

    As I’ve said I appreciate you and your entire perspective on this and mine is obviously different.

    I don't appreciate you anymore after this...

    And that’s fine until they start crossing borders to kill civilians and talking about having their own country.

    YOU MEAN LIKE ISRAEL IS DOING NOW TO GAZA? LOL*

    Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.

    Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.

    It's people like you who guard the faulty system as it is with this bullshit, @JustZ. Oh it's much brigther than the darkness, you see!! that's why it was still a democracy even if half the population was not considered WORTHY enough to vote, and a large chunk were just slaves okay? But the flame don't die, okay??.

    Lol, lose me with this BS would you?

    JustZ ,
    @JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

    Wow. Obviously I'm not going to respond substantively to this rambling wall of emotional nonsense.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Right, you can say whatever you want, we will let the readers judge whether this is emotional nonsense or weather you are just biased and don't realize how much you dehumanize Palestinians.

    oakey66 ,

    Name checks out.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    Excellent comment! I look forward to your thesis!

    cosmicrookie ,
    @cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

    So.. you are skeptical and critical of how much the Israeli genocide of Palestine resembles the Holocaust? The issue is not that. The issue is that Israel of all countries is doing this even in a smaller and "milder" form.

    pjwestin ,
    @pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, I can't believe anyone would be ignorant enough to compare Israel's actions to the Holocaust. The Palestinian genocide clearly has more in common with the Armenian genocide than the Jewish genocide. I mean, forcing the Palestinians into southern Gaza while killing them indiscriminately and starving them to death is just begging for a comparison to the 1915 death marches. C'mon people, more countries than just Germany and Israel have committed genocide, think for a minute about your historical parallels!

    masquenox ,

    It must be so sad to see decades of fascist propaganda go to shit right before your very eyes, hasbara.

    Sad for you, that is.

    zooi ,

    I love Lemmy but I feel like most people on here are absolute deranged, even compared to Reddit.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    No Reddit is just as bad. This is a problem with people substituting ideology for intelligence. People will believe anything if they like the people telling them to. The truth of the matter is that no-one who is not involved in the conflict actually knows about what's actually going on there. The IDF obviously have an incentive to cover up war crimes, but at the same time Hamas (a group internationally recognized as a terorist organization) is the government in the Gaza Strip and all the statistics about civilian casualties are cited as coming from "the government of Palestine.

    So again talking about the nazi Party and Israel in the same breath on the basis of a single translated image is fucking stupid.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    "I don't agree with your comparison thus you must be ignorant."

    Sounds petty

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    Ok, I mean you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it's ended. And certainly isn't clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There's a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.

    Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it's a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don't have to believe us "keyboard warriors" sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I'm not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn't be consulted, because I don't live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn't seem to work. But I'm still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don't have enough information to make that call.

    I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.

    Fair enough, even though that's not at all how you came off. But I understand.

    I, on the other hand, have enough evidence. 75 years of evidence.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    If you don't mind me asking, where are you from ? (i notice that your user name is in Arabic)

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    I'm Palestinian Jordanian. My father is from Yaffa (Tel Aviv) and my mother is from a town nearby that was destroyed and turned into a settlement after the entire population was driven out after trying to defend themselves in 1947-48. My grandparents were in the Nakba as children and fled to Jordan, eventually receiving citizenship. My father grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan and my mother grew up in poverty as a result of the Nakba.

    Usually when people ask I just say I'm Jordanian to avoid the clutter of explaining all of this but I thought you might like a full answer.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    Ok so you're way closer to the conflict than you let on. Do you currently live in the region? I'm sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do. As I've said in previous comments, I'm extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet. YouTubers tend to have extreme views and papers only care about the click counter. Needless to say there aren't many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.

    snek , (edited )
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok so you’re way closer to the conflict than you let on

    Not really going to wear a badge that says "GRANDCHILD OF THE NAKBA" or something. And I'm not "letting on" anything. Makes it sound like I'm trying to "deceive" people which is very weird. Maybe it's just the way you phrase things?

    Needless to say there aren’t many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.

    Arctic Scandinavia? You mean like, Kiruna or way up north or something? I live in Sweden btw, yeah not many Palestinians here, I agree.

    I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do.

    We have some family in the West Bank that my family had not been able to visit for years because of the humiliation at the checkpoints. My mom especially hated being stripped naked and searched every visit. I don't know much about them, it's more of my mom's department to keep track of distant relatives. A friend of mine is currently also stuck in Gaza, a Swedish citizen whom Sweden ignored and is not helping out... Last known location is Al Nasser Hospital with shrapnel in his legs so you can imagine the horrors his wife and daughters are going through.

    As I’ve said in previous comments, I’m extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet.

    I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do.

    I understand and respect that... but much of this evidence is coming from journalists who are reporting similar (if not the same) recurring stories. Worse of all, a lot of this evidence is posted by the IDF themselves or by Israeli channels due to their disturbing internal culture.

    I can only offer insight into life as a Palestinian refugee and have never been able to visit my home towns in Palestine and would never be allowed to enter (because my last name is Palestinian, because I donate to the BDS, and because I'm extremely vocal about Israeli pinkwashing). However, if you want some insights from ex IDF soldiers themselves, I would recommend watching some videos from the Breaking The Silence foundation (https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/). An Israeli foundation documenting the horrors young people end up doing when they join the IDF.

    This was a valuable resource for me because just like you, I'm very wary of what is posted on the internet and try to always find more evidence to support it.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    Nei kompis. Litt lengre nordover. Jeg skal se på linken om en liten stund og skrive en respons i ettermiddagen. (Er på jobb nå). Hva synes du om Sverige? Jeg har hørt at det er meget vanskelig for utlendinger å bli ordentlig integrert i samfunnet pga rasisme og sånn. Samboeren min er fra usa og ble nektet en brosjyre distribusjon job i Stockholm pga hun var ikke svensk. Og hun er det som kalles for "den rigtige type utlending"

    snek , (edited )
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Hva synes du om Sverige?

    Sverige älskar jag faktiskt. Har altid velat att bo på nån plats där manniskör bryr sig inte så mycket om religion. Med jobbet var det annorlunda för mig... i början hade jag nästan inga erfarenheter på svenska bolag och fick bara ett studentjobb och en praktik på ett startup... MEN efter mitt först "seriöst" jobb blev det lättre -- jag även hade det motsatta problemet ibland för att det finns många företag som vill ha "diversity" i kontoret och det kan ibland mena att man fick anställning pga att dem vill visa sig så här och har färgade kvinnor eller araber eller afrikaner på kontoret för att ta bra fotos som visar hur "diverse" deras arbetsplats är, osv.

    Jag upplever inte så mycket racism var jag bor och jobbar (men jag jobbar inom tech), på mest var det bara några få incidenter med privat personer men flera med myndigheter som försäkringskassan och migrationsverket... det beror ofta på vem man får som handläggare. Men jag har många vänner som är från Kina eller är män från Mellanöstern som har det jättesvårt pga en dålig miljö som vill inte ge dem chansar och vill inte lita på dem. Men iaf tycker jag att svenskarna är mer öppna och mer spannande än stereotypen. Mina vänner hjälpte mig mycket med att integrera och jag är tacksam för dem.

    SFI var inte så bra som hag trodde det skulle bli för att lära mig svenska, jag klarade sista nivån men kunde inte prata rigtigt svenska med andra, och var tvungen att ha privat lektioner istället, då blev det bättre och jag känner mig mer bekväm och hoppas att bli en svensk medbogare i 2 års tid.

    Va dåligt är det, vad hade hänt med din vän :( det låter fel! kankse som nånting hon kan klaga till myndigheterna om?

    UrbonMaximus ,

    Genuine question - what's your opinion of the Jordanian treatment of Palestinians?

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    It was difficult whenever I crossed paths with racist Jordanians. Most Jordanians I've met were perfectly fine people, but most of those who were racist towards me were Jordanian. One problem that drives the division is demographic in nature: many Palestinians settled in Amman, the capital, and many Jordanians owned land far from the capital and lived in rural areas, hence had worse services and the government cared less about them, coupled with bad corruption within governmental circles in cities other than the capital. This always drives a disdain for the "immigrant" population, which meant Palestinians up until the Iraq war and then the war in Syria. Most problems would be related to employment, Jordanians (and often Palestinians) being hired out of favoritism and nepotism has caused pain to many people, but has also allowed some people to navigate a grossly unfair and uncaring system.

    I remember at my elementary/middle school, we were not allowed to wear the Palestinian Kuffiyeh (my grandfather always told me to never wear it... only he wore one as an older man but knew that it comes with getting shit from some random people on the street so he never wanted his granddaughters to experience that). There's also another issue that has plagued my aunt and her husband: she's married to a Palestinian from Gaza, and could never get citizenship, so her children had a more difficult life in terms of getting education and opportunities.

    Among my generation (born in the 90's), there's certainly less racism, and there are many Jordanians who call Palestinians their brothers and care about the Palestinian cause. But I still grew up hearing slurs like "baljikeyye / Belgian" to refer to Palestinian refugees who had tents made in Belgium. Often when I get stopped by police and my Jordanian bff is with us in the car, things go fine. Otherwise, I'm usually fucked unless the police officer is a decent person. Things move easier if you're Jordanian with a Jordanian name, and some Jordanians/Palestinians don't like to marry someone not from their own country/identity but that stuff has started to fade with the internet and rise in civil rights and freedoms.

    I guess my experience is mixed, but I feel that's normal when you look at a nuanced and highly porous society like that in Jordan.

    Maggoty ,

    Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).

    This isn't a wait until it's over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It's not rocket science.

    small44 ,

    Besides Gaz Chambers they are very similar

    OccamsTeapot ,

    What would you compare it to? Is this how prisoners should be treated?

    lurch ,

    Guantanamo would be a better comparison ... for now

    goferking0 ,

    Which can also be compared to nazi behavior. So much sick shit was done to the prisoners there

    OccamsTeapot ,

    Sounds pretty bad still

    cosmicrookie ,
    @cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah man! That bread does not even have mold on it! /s

    postmateDumbass ,

    Tucker sniffing ergot again?

    deft ,

    Shut the fuck up pearl clutcher

    zooi ,

    Says more about you than it does about me lmao

    postmateDumbass ,

    Genocide.

    We are comparing the German-Jewish genocide with the Israeli-Palestinian genocide.

    masquenox ,

    Yes. They were comparing genocidal fascists to genocidal fascists.

    Will that do or will you need somebody to draw you a picture?

    zooi ,

    Yes please draw me a picture of the Holocaust. I'm genuinely wondering what that looks like in that warped mind of yours.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Would you accept this if holocaust survivors made this comparison?

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    This is where you bring out Gabor Maté, who was born a year before the Holocaust ended, doesn't live in Israel/Palestine, and yet is taken very seriously by the media. One could equally bring out Mosab Hassan Yousef on the other side, who is to my mind actually more compelling, as he has actually worked for both sides.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    So yes or no? BTW I don't even know these people you are reffering to.

    Colour_me_triggered ,

    https://youtu.be/ph9XF39yjgU?feature=shared

    https://youtu.be/gl5OOpCFUCs?feature=shared

    I don't like piers Morgan btw, it's just good for comparison to have the same person interview both people.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    So yes or no? I'll click the link when I get an answer. Otherwise it feels like you are beating around the bush.

    riodoro1 ,

    People were held in a atrocious conditions and then murdered.

    The only thing different here is forced labour. Maybe the IDF will also implement that idea.

    DAMunzy ,

    I guess you don't equate it because the prisoners aren't starved and abused enough? How much worse do you want it to get before you denounce it? It's at least as bad as what the Americans were doing in the Abu Ghraib prison.

    zooi ,

    I already denounce it. Obviously. I now understand that there is no room for nuance on this medium. The IDF is committing war crimes and I hope these atrocities won't go unpunished. That is not mutually exclusive to thinking this is not even remotely close to the holocaust.

    Linkerbaan , (edited )
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Multiple Children in Gaza have already been killed with starvation by israel. Palestinians locked in a concentration camp.

    WHO can't even bring food to the north which is supposedly "fully controlled by israel" which tells you enough about intentional starvation and genocide.

    If you wanna do Genocide denial consider Reddit. We have indeed lost that "nuance" which you still posses.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    OP presents a great example of intelligence vs wisdom. Intelligence is knowing the Holocaust was technically worse. Wisdom is knowing that really doesn't matter here. The nuance they're talking about is pointless, especially when you consider that we didn't know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.

    The earlier stages of the Holocaust were very similar to what Israel is doing now. And what's scary is that they're accelerating too.

    DAMunzy ,

    we didn't know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.

    I believe we knew just not the extent.

    DAMunzy ,

    My apologies. I missed that. 👍

    nte ,

    1943 is not that long ago, television existed, especially in Germany.> Television in Germany began in Berlin on 22 March 1935, broadcasting for 90 minutes three times a week. It was home to the first public television station in the world, named Fernsehsender Paul Nipkow.>

    Tristaniopsis ,

    Wow. I had no idea.
    Not many common volk would’ve had television though eh? Sounds like an luxury reserved for the rich.

    Schmuppes ,

    They probably went to the cinema to watch those broadcasts.

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