YSK: lemmy.ml is managed by tankies, and lead lemmy developer is a tankie

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

You should know /politics and /news ban anyone critical of israel and Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.

oce , 22 days ago

Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.

Do you mean people in favor of the existence of a state of Israel (original meaning) which is most of the Western world, so unsurprising, or in favor of the colonization after the 1993 "two states solution" agreement?
If it's the later, do you have proof?

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

Most of the western world does not agree that criticism of israels right to existence is illegal or antisemitic.

The world mods permabanned me for clarifying that israelis are as native to Palestine as the Russians are to Crimea.

“To be fair, Israelis are extremely European. In fact 75 years ago they mostly lived in Europe. They should consider going back. The problem here is that Putin was banned two years ago for war crimes and israel is not while it is committing a massive Genocide.”

= Permaban for Anti Semitism.

oce , 21 days ago

So you confirm you used the original meaning?
Then yes, that's pretty average Western. You wrote it as if it was some extremist position, but it's not, hence my question.

They should consider going back.

There's probably some western countries or political groups that will judge this as being antisemitism because they follow the logic that the existence of Israel is essential to the survival of the Jewish people. This idea was obviously much more consensual after WW2 than today.

Linkerbaan , 21 days ago

There are some groups Zionist lobby like AIPAC that will argue that. I don't care about those groups. They call every and all criticism of israel antismitic.

There was no mention of Judaism and israel is not a Jewish state to begin with. It is a Zionist state.

This is like Hexbears calling negative things about China Sinophobic.

Only Zionists subscribe to the notion that saying israelis are European colonists is "antisemitic". And going as far as to ban a user for it is hardcore Zionism. Thus the /news mods are provably Zionists.

CerealKiller01 , 22 days ago

I'm from Israel, and no one is using "Zionism" in the second meaning.

Zionism is, by definition, support for Israel as a Jewish state.

There are those who say "real Zionism" is supporting settlements in Gaza and the west bank, but there are also those who say "real Zionism" is an Israeli state existing alongside a Palestinian state. That's like a US democrat saying a "true patriot" would support supplying a social safety net for the well-being of all citizens, while a US republican would say a "true patriot" would support a small government that doesn't restrict the will of all citizens.

Personally, I feel that referring to Zionism in general as support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza started as a (partially successful) tactic to de-legitimize the existence of Israel. Not saying everyone who uses the term incorrectly is an antisemitic or whatever, but that's basically where it came from.

octopus_ink , 22 days ago

while a US republican would say a “true patriot” would support a small government that doesn’t restrict the will of all citizens.

I don't think they say this much anymore since all Republican polices are explicitly about restricting the will of their fellow citizens.

Personally, I feel that referring to Zionism in general as support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza

I never used it this way or considered it this way until the past few months. 🤔 Now you'd have a hard time convincing me that it's not what it means.

CerealKiller01 , 21 days ago

I don’t think they say this much anymore since all Republican policies are explicitly about restricting the will of their fellow citizens.

Thant's not really the point, though it does kinda feed into a general issue with the way both out countries (assuming you're from the US) are divided - When was the last time you had an actual talk with a republican in order to understand what he/she thinks?

I never used it this way or considered it this way until the past few months. 🤔 Now you’d have a hard time convincing me that it’s not what it means.

Err... that's just the definition of the word? You can look it up on any dictionary.

We could talk about the current government, it's policy or the opinion of Israelis but saying the entire concept of Zionism equals support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza is not only factually wrong, it collapses the Israel-Palestine issue into a winner-take-all situation, where both sides are encouraged to beat each other in the hopes one of them will give up before both are dead.

octopus_ink , 21 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

When was the last time you had an actual talk with a republican in order to understand what he/she thinks?

Every day until the Pandemic. My republican friends now work in a different office than I do. It's not hard to see the policies and politicians they vote for though, and I can read the handwritten signs in their yards explicitly calling me an idiot, moron, or traitor for having different views than they do. (I see those every day BTW.)

it collapses the Israel-Palestine issue into a winner-take-all situation

I'm just looking at what I've spent the past several months witnessing via news reporting and video clips. I'm not debating what the dictionary says about it. (And in any case, dictionaries reflect usage not prescribe it.)

CerealKiller01 , 21 days ago

Every day until the Pandemic.

Cool, good for you (seriously). Do you honestly think they'll say they're against the freedom of the individual, or is it that you think they're against it? Not saying you're right or wrong, just asking if you're describing what you think they'll say, their own beliefs or the beliefs/consequences of their party. It's an important distinction, especially when trying to engage in dialogue with them.

I’m just looking at what I’ve spent the past several months witnessing via news reporting and video clips.

Maybe I don't follow enough news outside of Israel, but I do read quite a bit and there wasn't anything about Zionism. Could you maybe link to one or two sources?

I’m not debating what the dictionary says about it.

I'm actually not debating at all, right now I'm trying to understand you, and I'm having some difficulties. My best guess is, you seem to have issues against the Israeli army and government (me too, btw), and somehow decided that's Zionism. Zionism is more than a century old, and there are plenty of people who call themselves Zionists, yet don't support all the IDF and the Israeli government did during the past few months (you're talking to one right now, and Biden is another example). Do you think these people are wrong in what their opinions are? That they're lying? That they're not using the correct word, even though that's the same usage as in the dictionary?

fuckingkangaroos , 22 days ago

Known shill Linkerbaan defending Lemmy.ml with a whataboutism. Not very original.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

Known shill neoliberal Linkerbaan fuckingkangaroos defending Lemmy.ml world with a whataboutism. adhominems Not very original.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

Then stop posting there.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

I have stopped posting there because... they banned me for posting negative things about israel.

Your same argument can be applied to anyone complaining about .ml by the way.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

Go find me a post or comment I’ve made in that shithole.

Then come back here and delete your response in humiliation.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

This is not about you this is about the argument you are using.

You could type "then stop posting there" as a reply to OP as well. It solves nothing except to create echo chambers.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

And I can say the same to you, which I am. Stop posting there if you don’t like it. We’re not talking about OP. We’re talking about you.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

No we're talking about you.

You can stop replying if you don't like it.

Wow your argument is amazing I am winning every debate with this.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

Is that so? How is this about me? I’d LOVE to see you suss this out.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

It is about you. And you can stop posting underneath here if you don't like it.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

So I asked, HOW is it about me when this was never about me. What we were talking about was how you don’t have to post in the communities you’re complaining about. And predictably, you tried to use that as a “gotcha.”

Where it only just makes you look like a hypocrite.

So again,

How is this about me?

And regarding your little post edit there, you don’t get to declare yourself the winner. It’s a conversation with a random person on the internet. There isn’t a winner/loser. And the fact that you think there is…

Would make you the loser if there was one.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

I you cannot see how this is about you then scroll up in this thread and if you don't like it don't reply.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

I think I’d rather try and understand the reasoning as you see it-

When was this ever about me? It’s a simple question to answer?

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

Then stop posting there.

If you don't like this is about your comment then stop posting here.

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

Enjoy the day, troll.

beardown , 22 days ago

Are you autistic?

Rhoeri , 22 days ago

You can’t help yourself, can you?

Allero , 22 days ago

This is true.

Also, some other communities straight up ban you for being in any way critical of NATO/US.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Lemmy.world mods just banned returntoozma from /politics for not posting enough postive news about Biden hahaha.

Only Orange Man bad.

nahuse , 22 days ago

I would like to see similar proof of this allegation as exists elsewhere in this thread for .ml communities. Can you substantiate your allegations?

It’s not that I don’t believe you necessarily, it’s that it is completely counter to my own experience, where it seems to be commonly accepted that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing, war crimes, and likely genocide.

Can you illustrate any comments that have been deleted/users who have been banned for critique of Israel?

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Sure thing.

This is what got me a banned for "antisemitism" on /news. Because factually stating that israelis are Europeans that colonized Palestine is actually a hate crime against Jews according to the /news mods.

“To be fair, Israelis are extremely European. In fact 75 years ago they mostly lived in Europe. They should consider going back. The problem here is that Putin was banned two years ago for war crimes and israel is not while it is committing a massive Genocide.”

Don't look up Netanyahu's real name that's antisemitic.

I have also been banned multiple times before on those communities for stating the fact that there is zero evidence that Hamas raped anyone on October 7, one of israels biggest lies that has been heavily debunked by now. But this too is not allowed because israeli lies are not allowed to be debunked until at least 6 months years after israel is done using them as propaganda to commit Genocide with.

And returntoozma, a well known poster that frequenntly posts pro-Palestine articles who is not too happy with Joe Biden being complicit in Genocide, just got banned from /politics for too many negative posts about Joe Biden.

nahuse , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

Can you tell me the time of your interaction happened so I can look it up in the mod logs, and the thread itself? Your comment seems fairly innocuous to me, and I would certainly be surprised to see that it is viewed as a hate crime.

EDIT: I can’t see that return2ozma was actually banned in the mod log.

Returnoozma posts the same stories over and over again, to as many subs as possible, and with a clear agenda that doesn’t seem to extend much past “Biden is bad.” They have also been called out for it repeatedly by the users there, and I have personally asked them to tone down the reposts. But it’s not as if they have their content constantly removed. It was overwhelming.

If a community asks a user to ease up on posting the same content over and over, with a clear agenda, which seemed to be the case with oozma, then a ban seems appropriate.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Not sure how to link the thread. This should be the comment but it is removed

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6edb9c0c-89ef-4063-9abe-b733dd06b7e5.png

Ozma should have gotten banned for spamming in that case, but the explanation posted publicly on /politics says "posted too many negative things about Biden", not "spamming"

nahuse , 22 days ago

I think that comment removal was out of line, but I don’t think many comments should be removed at all. However it doesn’t look as if you have been banned from any other subs across .world, have you? That’s a large part of the discussion happening here.

I just read the announcement about his ban. It’s strange I couldn’t find it in the mod logs when I looked. However, their explanations are pretty well articulated, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make a user who overwhelms a forum with a clear agenda take a break.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

I was banned from /politics for 30 days for debunking israeli rape propaganda. That ban expired recently. Only worldnews is not in the gripes of Zionist censorship (of the three big news communities.)

They did not ban ozma for spamming but supposedly for propaganda.

nahuse , 22 days ago

I’m not sure what you debunked, but based on our short interaction here you seem to deny that there is any evidence of sexual assault. Which is not true: there’s plenty of evidence, which I have you in another of my responses.

What is true is that some of the reports of rape were untrue. Read the AP news article I linked, where they interview some of the people who actually made those initial reports and reconsidered them.

I think it’s ok to acknowledge that both Hamas and the Israeli government have committed atrocities, and keep doing it. I can condemn both.

Getting back to the point of the OP here, though: there are plenty of examples of Israel being criticized, that have survived moderation.

I don’t know that I agree with the decision to ban ozma, but it does seem like it was at least openly discussed, and it doesn’t appear as if he was also banned from completely unrelated subs for his actions.

Which, again, is a huge crux of the OP that you seem to be avoiding.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

There is no evidence of Hamas raping anyone on October 7 as proven by the UN report. Only oral testimonies of which we have evidence many were fake. All the israel claimed to have turned out to be fake lies.

You have never provided any evidence.

/news and /politics contains far fewer criticism of israel than /worldnews. This is easily observable.

JimSamtanko , 22 days ago

You were banned for misinformation. It’s in the mod logs.

nahuse , 22 days ago

Also, here’s a UN report that may interest you:

“Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council”

https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

Many of the first stories by Israeli first responders have been illustrated to be false, however that doesn’t mean no sexual assaults happened: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

yes the UN which confirms there is zero evidence of rape provided by israel. Consider reading it. The report states that any testimonies do not count as evidence as a UN investigation (which this is not) would have to take place. Israel is blocking the UN rape investigation because of course, there is no evidence of rape.

If legalese is too difficult consider: https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/pramila-pattens-rape-fantasies

nahuse , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/12016983

That’s my comment, where I replied to you, with a source from the United Nations. I’ll highlight the relevant… title of the page… for you:

“Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council”

I also included an APNews article about this very topic, and addresses the ways that disinformation regarding sexual violence in this conflict about. Here’s the headline of that article:

“How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war”

Edit: here is the actual UN report: https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

The report states that any testimonies do not count as evidence as a UN investigation (which this is not) would have to take place. Israel is blocking the UN rape investigation.

AP massively manufactured consent for israel their report is worth nothing as they were spouting those debunked rape lies to begin with.

And it's certainly not 2 accounts.. It's far more.

And the israeli government claimed on BBC that there were survivors of "khamaaas rape" and that they had video, photo and forensic evidence. All which turned out to be lies.

nahuse , 22 days ago

So you did not read anything I’ve sent you?

I’ve edited my previous comment, and included the actual UN report.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Read the first line in my comment again. Israel is blocking the actual UN investigation. Your report specifically states that it is not evidence and cannot be used as evidence.

nahuse , 22 days ago

That Israel has not provided evidence? Maybe, but irrelevant to our conversation.

The UN report itself outlines how sexual violence has occurred in this conflict, right from the start.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Strange because the UN seems to disagree with you. The UN says there is no evidence Hamas raped anyone in this very article:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e898b051-5a6f-49ef-ab84-616977059061.png

nahuse , 22 days ago

What? How does that say anything about what did or did not happen? This is about the mandate of the team, and, as I have been saying, means that there is more investigation needed. Please, highlight for me where the UN says that there is no evidence of rape. I think in this case it might be you who struggles with some of the nuances of legalese.

Over and over again, it says that there "are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of
rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information, which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered."

None of this amounts to "there is no evidence of rape." What this means is that there needs to be more, sustained and explicitly mandated investigation before legal action should take place. This concept, I think, is called due process.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Strange so why would the UN require a real investigation to draw conclusions on rape?

The report has no investigative mandate. It contains the words of a woman named pramilla patten that desperately tried to help israel push rape propaganda but was not able to find any real evidence to do so. She was specifically invited by israel while israel blocked the UN team with an investigative mandate.

nahuse , 22 days ago

Because a wider, better resourced, and long term investigation would be better equipped to collect and analyze evidence? Because a better structured and mandated team would likely have more access, credibility, and ability to undertake that assignment? Because, as the report discusses, it often takes years or decades for crimes committed during armed conflict to come to their conclusion, for myriad of reasons?

Among other statements, here's what the actual UN report actually said about just this: "As in other conflict-affected contexts, there
remains a significant likelihood that the findings of the mission team, in terms of verified violations, only partially reflect the crimes actually committed. A more comprehensive assessment of the occurrence of conflict-related sexual violence in the context of the 7 October attacks would require a fully-fledged investigation by competent bodies with adequate time and capacity." (Page 15, section C, subsection 56).

Over and over again this report says that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred" on that day, in various settings. I'm not sure why you think that this amounts to "rape definitely did not happen."

And, since your counterargument rests on the idea that Pramilla Patten is just "a woman," I think you should think about who and what she is: a legal expert, practicing lawyer, and judge who has been investigating gender-based violence for more than 20 years, and specifically sexual violence in conflict settings since 2017.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Yes you are right it repeats the "reasonable grounds" thing over and over and then undoes it by saying "lol we don't actually have an investigative mandate and this report cannot draw conclusions. Our witnesses and evidence and not mentioned trust me bro but also you can't trust me."

Very contradictory. You'd almost think that she is writing propaganda for israel here. And was specifically invited by israel to write propaganda.

Tell me again, why is israel blocking the actual UN investigation team that wants to investigate?

Consider reading the Finkelstein post again if you're having trouble with the deceiving legalise from Pattens report.

nahuse , 22 days ago

Yes you are right it repeats the “reasonable grounds” thing over and over and then undoes it by saying “lol we don’t actually have an investigative mandate and this report cannot draw conclusions. Our witnesses and evidence and not mentioned trust me bro but also you can’t trust me.

Doesn't say they can't draw conclusions, only that the conclusions they draw do not have the same legal weight as other possible legal instruments. You're also conflating their mandate and the evidence they collected; they don't have a mandate sufficient to complete the investigation, but that has nothing to do with the evidence they did collect. Which says, in no uncertain terms, that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that sexual violence occurred. Let me be clear, again: NONE OF THAT MEANS THE UN HAS FOUND ZERO EVIDENCE OF RAPE ON OCTOBER 7TH.

Very contradictory. You’d almost think that she is writing propaganda for israel here. And was specifically invited by israel to write propaganda.

I'm sure Israel does want these crimes to be exposed. I'm also sure that the present government of Israel is a bad actor and is doing everything it can to subvert any critique against itself, while maximizing messaging critical of Hamas (and also minimizing any reports of its crimes).

Tell me again, why is israel blocking the actual UN investigation team that wants to investigate?

Because the government of Israel sucks, and any intensive investigation would certainly recover even more evidence of the various war crimes it has committed, which obviously amount to a lot more death and destruction than anything that happened on October 7th.

Consider reading the Finkelstein post again if you’re having trouble with the deceiving legalise from Pattens report.

Thanks, I have an advanced degree in international affairs, so I was trained by actual subject matter experts on how this stuff works. Dr. Finkelstein is not an expert in international law, which is why some of his critiques fall short, in my view, and explains why you don't seem to understand that just because a team does not enjoy a robust enough mandate that doesn't mean they don't collect evidence. It just means they don't have the proper mandate to collect all the evidence, and certainly not sufficient authority to make conclusions beyond certain evidentiary standards.

I'd also remind you that the UN is an intergovernmental organization, and with a few very notable exceptions, no UN entity can operate outside the restrictions that a host country places on it.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Yes the visit it has nothing to do with all of the NYT, AP, Guardian Reuters and other propaganda repurts being fully debunked and israel needing new ammunition to keep the rape lies alive

It is a sad state of affairs that someone with a degree in legalise is fully unable to read and comprehend anything said in reports. You should consider asking your university for a refund.

Then again, when I debunked the original NYT propaganda piece that everyone now admits is a massive hoax, another lemming told me they had a journallist degree and I should learn some media literacy because "The New York Times does the highest quality objective reporting"

I will end this conversation with a video of the woman you adore so much admitting herself that you are wrong

nahuse , 22 days ago

Yes the visit it has nothing to do with all of the NYT, AP, Guardian Reuters and other propaganda repurts being fully debunked and israel needing new ammunition to keep the rape lies alive

What? this doesn't seem like a statement that is relevant to our conversation, which is about whether sexual violence occurred on October 7th.

It is a sad state of affairs that someone with a degree in legalise is fully unable to read and comprehend anything said in reports. You should consider asking your university for a refund.

lol, I'll send a letter and see. I'd love for you to illustrate where my reading comprehension is bad, though. I just keep on waiting for you to prove your points, I guess.

Yikes, man. It's absolutely unreal to me that you are just blanket denying that there is any possibility that sexual violence occurred on a day where 1,200 people were murdered and thousands more injured by a decentralized group of combatants, many of whom don't believe that Israelis are real people. It does not do any credit to your argument that you are so vehemently opposed to accepting the possibility members of an armed group that perpetrated horrific acts against unarmed civilians across a wide period of time and space may have also raped people.

I watched the video. Seriously, where the fuck does it say anything about rapes not happening? Honestly, you keep saying this thing, and presenting evidence, but literally nothing you are showing me says what you're saying it says. Every single source you have posted says that that there is evidence of sex crimes. Every single one, including that video. Just saying a source proves your point doesn't mean that the source, yanno, proves your point.

some_guy , 22 days ago

I agree that the Oct 7 rape charges are bullshit, but you're misrepresenting the image you posted: it says there was no investigation and that one would be due to draw any conclusions.

Linkerbaan , 21 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

There was no investigation. That would require an investigative mandate.

It is insane that anyone would believe witnesses provided by the israeli government after a track record of like 10 previous witnesses provided by the israeli government that were proven to be lying.

some_guy , 20 days ago

What's truly insane is how you're getting downvoted when Israel's claims have been repeatedly disproven or simply never substantiated.

Linkerbaan , 20 days ago

These people are completely brainwashed. Israeli lies can be debunked 10 times. They spout an 11th lie without evidence and the cult of liberals holds it up like the Bible

nahuse , 22 days ago

The AP has been targeted by Israel for its coverage of the conflict.

In that article they interview the people who initially reported some of these cases of rape, and illustrate how and why they were wrong. It doesn’t say anywhere that there are no other erroneous reports of rape.

The UN report, which I’ve linked elsewhere, illustrates the evidence and methodology, and makes the convincing argument that sexual assault likely occurred in the context of Oct 7. It’s in plain English.

Linkerbaan , 22 days ago

Once again https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/pramila-pattens-rape-fantasies

Consider reading that instead of replying to me. It debunks everything you said about the UN report 5 times over.

I have read the UN report. You have not.

nahuse , 22 days ago

I've read the report, and it states over and over again that there is credible evidence of assaults, and stipulates how it went about its business.

I'm working through Dr. Finkelstein's arguments. All I can see he does is cast doubt on the evidence that was collected and the mission's mandate. None of this amounts to "there is no evidence that there was any rape." It just means that there is evidence for more investigation.

SpaceCadet , 22 days ago

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/70a4700c-aff6-497e-8b2c-ad31dd4dae79.png

Fidel_Cashflow , 22 days ago

Wtf based??????

ZombiFrancis , 22 days ago

This whole endless debate always just feels like three Dean Brownings in a trench coat.

AFC1886VCC , 22 days ago

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

irreticent , 22 days ago

I think it's fair to complain about censorship on a platform that was founded on anti-censorship.

DragonTypeWyvern , 22 days ago

Who told you that?

irreticent , 22 days ago

The post linked in the OP where the lemmy Dev says that's why he made lemmy.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230626055233/https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/cqgztr/fuck_the_white_supremacist_reddit_admins_want_me/

spez_ , 22 days ago

No it wasn't

irreticent , 22 days ago

I was just going by what the lemmy Dev said in his Reddit post. He said he made it to circumvent Reddit censorship.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230626055233/https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/cqgztr/fuck_the_white_supremacist_reddit_admins_want_me/

bloodfart , 22 days ago

Goose wielding butter knife: Reddit censorship of whomst?

carl_marks_1312 , 22 days ago

I think it's not fair to complain about "censorship" when the decentral nature of the platform is made to avoid it. Especially not when you haven't contributed to the codebase. You can open your own nstance at any time.

fuckingkangaroos , 22 days ago

And people can (and should) defederate the propaganda machine lemmy.ml at any time.

Faresh , 22 days ago

You are only censored on lemmy.ml, not on the rest of the network. You can write whatever you want, but lemmy.ml has no duty to tolerate racists in their house.

ahal , 22 days ago

As soon as you decide to decentralize your platform it ceases to belong to any particular group.

Allero , 22 days ago

It was not developed for the communists, it was developed as a general-purpose decentralized Reddit alternative.

Also, not all communists are tankies. There's plenty of left-wingers of all sorts on Lemmy, communists included, who are not tankies.

Cowbee , 22 days ago

Which Communists get a pass, and which don't? As a part of attacking fringes, I have found even suggesting people to read Marx gets me called a tankie. If Marx is enough to be a tankie, what Communists can there be that aren't tankies?

Allero , 22 days ago

Good question!

Essentially, if you readily forgive communist regimes any atrocities and defend red imperialism, you are a tankie.

You are not a tankie for suggestion to read Marx - and I believe you were misinterpreted as people coming from .ml and talking about Marx are most commonly tankies, sadly. But we should never assume that.

I certainly recommend reading the works of Marx, Engels, and Lenin, and it shouldn't mean I am a tankie indeed.

Cowbee , 22 days ago

Even if we assume these people exist and are not the fringe, what makes you think it was a misinterpretation? All Marxists are being called tankies, and words are being put in Marxists mouths. Even Anarchists are being called tankies now over on .world if they criticize Biden in any way.

Don't you think this is just a consequence of an instance taking a deliberately anti-Marxist stance?

Allero , 22 days ago

I think it's a consequence of poor representation by many actual tankies, multiplied by a concentrated effort to silence any critique of Biden to boost his ratings as someone just a bit less evil than Trump.

This is a big clusterfuck, and I hope to have a better dialogue between authoritarian socialists, liberal socialists and people who consider themselves "left" because they vote Democrat (Murica did a great job at straying people away from actual socialism).

Hostility won't help either side, but tankies are stubborn and Biden-prophets are relentless, dividing the community of people who all want a more equal and happy world.

Diva , 22 days ago

Mods are tankies? Waow

Allero , 22 days ago

Worse. Devs are tankies :D

PedroG14 , 22 days ago

Waow

boatsnhos931 , 22 days ago

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/76c0efa8-ca56-43d2-a635-b5009cd15d4f.jpeg

krolden , 22 days ago

Are you people getting paid to post about this holy shit what the fuck?

DragonTypeWyvern , 22 days ago

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that topics like this made the rounds in several subs at the same time.

Block the instance if you've got a problem.

SoleInvictus , 22 days ago

I'd think it was outside actors trying to troll if this wasn't so common and predictable.

Here's a great article about this kind of overreactive purity drama in leftist spaces.

Exiting the Vampire Castle

yamanii , 22 days ago

The communists here in my country have a saying: "First we get to power, then we bicker"

DragonTypeWyvern , 22 days ago

The anarchists in mine have a different order of operations, unfortunately, but that's the problem entirely.

vga , 22 days ago

Somebody noticed a disturbing fact and wants to distribute the knowledge on multiple channels? I think I'll allow this.

Other than that, yes, let's lift&shift the good communities away from lemmy.ml and block it.

fuckingkangaroos , 22 days ago

People on multiple subs are sick of their authoritarian propaganda, what a shock I'm so surprised oh wow

SomeAmateur , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

This community is called YouShouldKnow not YouShouldDoSomethingAboutThis

You have the info and you can care as much or as little as you like

nahuse , 22 days ago

Not a coincidence, since it’s the same group of users and they all link to one-another?

The only problem with blocking is that it doesn’t actually solve anything, just removes you from participating in conversations that are happening around you.

It’s also bad for new users who become afraid to participate.

bloodfart , 22 days ago

Dang if you like free speech so much, why not federate with hexbear about it?

queermunist , 22 days ago

Another astounding revelation from Reddit.world 😲

kilgore_trout , 22 days ago

Who cares. This is pointless drama.

Doom , 22 days ago

Your username and saying this is so ironic

Esqplorer , 22 days ago

It's really not unless you think Kurt would have been terminally online.

Allero , 22 days ago

As a fellow communist, I was always bewildered by this urge of many tankies to prove by all means, against any evidence, that China is socialist and ultimately good.

It's neither. China turned to markets, privatized many industries, and really did commit atrocities on Tiannamen square and in Xinjiang.

Doesn't mean socialism as a system is dysfunctional. United States are directly responsible for insane atrocities all over the world, and we don't need to deny that either.

We need to learn from the experience and strive for it not to happen again. Not close our eyes, scream "blah-blah-blah" and pretend it never happened.

China and the Soviet Union were responsible for acts of genocide, mass murdering/starving people, etc.

Doesn't mean this didn't happen in a capitalist world, and doesn't mean we should close our eyes on that to defend the good look of the system. If anything, this does the opposite. Problems need to be solved, not ignored.

I_Clean_Here , 22 days ago

Tables are, like fascists, searching for dogmatic "easy" in a complex world. You know, like ignorant assholes.

Allero , 22 days ago

All while it actually is kinda easy.

Some people found their niche and created good for the world, for which they were financially rewarded (this stage is every capitalist proponent's dream).

Then those who earned money this way let their heirs inherit wealth. Some of those heirs multiplied it, and became so wealthy they could influence either politicians or the market itself.

From that moment onwards, generation after generation accumulate power and skew the world to fit their needs, with little regard to anyone else.

Without wealth redistribution, everyone else loses real economic and political power, and this is an inevitable endgame for capitalism because without this incentive such people wouldn't do good stuff for the world to begin with. We just finally reap the fruits of the system that were always there, and without a great shake, a "communist threat", this isn't going anywhere.

The thing that influenced the world and turned the tides in the early XX century was the success of Soviet Union which radicalized people around the globe and forced bourgeoisie to make concessions.

Unfortunately, workers of most countries stopped there, the proposed worldwide revolution never came, and most of the capital remained by capitalists, which has put socialist block at a huge capital disadvantage, with which they still managed to sustain for most of XX century, building huge economies almost from scratch.

Along this way, many regimes have either faced grave mistakes or considered all means worthy, which has led to a lot of suffering. This was exacerbated by the fact that socialist block was primarily dominated by authoritarian regimes, which gave carte blanche for many leaders to act as they please, with little regard to collateral damage. Aside from that, the Cold War, while it can and should be blamed on both sides of the conflict, has led to plenty of proxy wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives.

That's really it.

ameancow , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

You also don't affect lasting, meaningful change with dreams of an "uprising" or other fanciful ideas spawned by stories of Cuba in the 50's. There will be no romantic struggle here, no plucky rebels, no heartwarming finale where everyone is happy.

If you want to make the world better, work on it from within the system and learn why the system is the way it is and what power you have as an individual and as a group, THIS is how people have changed the world before.

I would delight in socialism becoming more widespread and accepted as a system to maintain population growth and happiness, I argue for it all the time, we need a number of very important safety nets before we start feeling like our tax money is going into something less abstract than "America: fuck yeah!" But I also know it takes more than cosplay theatrics and defending tyrants.

edit: the tankies are mad.

Allero , 22 days ago

On that, I'd sadly have to disagree to a degree.

Most radical shifts, especially as large as revamping an entire economic system, were violent or at least highly outside the existing framework, not some "change from the inside".

Behind any government is a desire for self-preservation - and capitalist democracies rig elections by underrepresenting the disadvantaged and also, as other systems, through the bureaucratic inertia that is there for a reason.

Taking America as the most studied case, the two-party system absolutely does not allow for the building of socialism, as both parties are highly capitalist in nature, and the rest exist there as a pure formality, deprived of resources for actual political campaigning. All while plenty of anti-freedom acts are taken specifically to silence who people in power don't want to see.

At the same time, the two leading parties create an illusion that this is the only choice and that Democrats are "the left" and act in the interest of the people. Even the most unprecedented case - the campaign of Bernie Sanders - came with what essentially can be seen as centrism - and even that was seen as "too much" with him failing miserably.

Similar story in many countries.

They flood the media, they control the opposition, and they approve anti-democratic laws - all to cement their place and make sure exactly that no change is ever gonna come from the inside.

Which is why, sadly, through all my desire for peace, I have to say that small and steady change is not enough. That's not to say that you shouldn't vote whoever's the biggest and leftest in your area, that you shouldn't do what is within the law and the current system to improve the situation where possible - but thinking it would be enough is a bit of a fairy dream.

ameancow , 22 days ago

The fairy dream here is thinking that America is ever going to suffer a violent uprising from a socialist/left direction.

I know if you consume all the propaganda it will feel like this is really the viable solution to so many of our problems, but every meme that proudly shows people in jumpsuits marching under a red flag, they tend to ignore the reality which is if every tankie and socialist were to topple the US government tomorrow, we would still have to live with the hundreds of millions of people who do NOT want a socialist utopia. There is no long-term planning, there is a really delusional belief with some people that actually says "Once the population sees how good it will be, they will fall in line" and I want to scream and physically shake you idiots out there who think this shit.

You can push our society towards more social policies that help more people, but this is nowhere close to a realistic time to talk about actual takeovers and coups. It's insane and stupid and it fucking HURTS the cause advocating for better policies and social services.

Cowbee , 22 days ago

That's not what revolutionary Leftists think would happen, lol. That would be adventurism, not a mass worker movement. Please read any book by a revolutionary, nobody is advocating for coups and then hoping everyone falls in line, lol.

It sounds stupid because it is stupid, which is why the adventurists you speak of are seen as ridiculous among revolitionary leftists.

ameancow , 22 days ago

k

Allero , 22 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

No one expects America to turn communist today, not in 10, 20, 50 years. The red scare and capitalist propaganda is so bad it would be idiotic to assume America as a socialist frontier.

But:

1. We have to work against red scare and change the people, not the government;
2. We should develop revolutionary movements in other parts of the world. The successes of USSR in the 30s have seriously affected people everywhere, including America.

ameancow , 22 days ago

I get involved in my local elections and city/county boards to endorse and support every policy or candidate that either leans distantly socialist, or puts any measure of power or control back in the hands of the people and workers. That alone will do far, far more realistic good for each of us than "developing revolutionary movements." That's still roleplaying and I don't think the USSR's "successes" were as meaningful as the tankies propaganda makes it out to be. But that's not an invite for a biased history lesson.

Allero , 22 days ago

I think USSR really did influence the world in a big way. No debates, just stating my stance.

It is great that you participate in what you do, and I advise any socialist to act the same, but it doesn't mean you can't do both.

Fight the system in existing framework, but don't forget it's not the only way. Think revolutionary, but do not settle for that alone and fight the system by legal means too. One shouldn't exclude the other.

rusticus , 22 days ago

Not sure where you are from, but your type of worldly reasoned view does not come without exposure to multiple systems of governance. Labels like “socialism”, “communism”, “capitalism” are the Newspeak that are used to place the populace opinion into buckets with which to control. And I completely agree about the US - its entire history is based upon capitalism and will always be based upon capitalism. Biden is the MOST progressive president in 50 years, yet it’s a stretch to even call him a centrist he’s so enmeshed with the existing corporatists.

Allero , 22 days ago

I operate dictionary definitions.

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production.

Socialism is dictated by the common (social) ownership of the means of production, and communism is a subset of socialism that entails absence of money and private property (note: not personal property).

US is blatantly capitalist. Nordic countries are capitalist, too. USSR was socialist, Russia is capitalist; revolutionary regime preceding the creation of USSR was also briefly communist (see: War communism), though, make no mistake, this wasn't the kind of communism anyone wanted, it's just that government couldn't run monetary policy properly at the time and had even bigger issues.

rusticus , 21 days ago

I operate dictionary definitions.

What. The. Fuck?

Allero , 21 days ago

Clarify, please?..

ssj2marx , 22 days ago

Two things:

• We can be critical of the mistakes of past socialist systems without falling into the trap of believing every red scare era lie about them.
• Not defending past socialist systems' accomplishments makes current socialists look like absolute cucks.

Winning the rhetorical war cannot be done if you stop to qualify every single thing you advocate for by disavowing every society that has ever advocated for that thing. The USSR was the most equal society that has existed on this earth since the industrial revolution, and served every one of its member countries better than they are served by their capitalist successor governments today. Meanwhile, basically every person who has been lifted out of poverty in the past thirty years has been Chinese, proving that socialism fucking works in a way that capitalism doesn't, even when both systems contain markets, wage labor, and an investment class.

Allero , 22 days ago

We can be critical of the mistakes of past socialist systems without falling into the trap of believing every red scare era lie about them.

Absolutely! But we should also own up to the mistakes that really happened. China did turn to markets, because capitalist world once again got a critical share, and the benefits of international trade could hardly be overlooked. Tiannamen square massacre really happened, as documented in many instances. The conversion happening in Xinjiang is barely peaceful. USSR really did send insane amounts of people to GULAG, despite the scale of this atrocity often being overblown by liberals (but even still it's massive), and really did forcefully move entire nationalities.

Don't get me wrong, by any means, I do not denounce USSR or China and the roles they took in building a better future for everyone. In fact, the achievements they've made forced governments around the world to improve working and living conditions of the people - people that saw what the world could actually be. And inside countries, socialism has caused immense economic improvements - though, it must be said, the turn in both USSR and China was cruel and radical, which caused a lot of massive supply problems, famines, and more. But at the end of the day, they truly emerged the powerful forces on the world stage, and this really was an economic miracle and victory of the people.

If I would personally assess the heritage of the socialist era, I would say it was a massive win for the world. But if we want for the socialism to finally take over the world, we need to be fair with ourselves and others on the shortcomings of the bygone times. At the very least, not to repeat them again.

UnderpantsWeevil , 22 days ago

prove by all means, against any evidence, that China is socialist and ultimately good

Taps life expectancy, infant mortality, and education statics

That's it. That's the nefarious methodology of the villainous Wumao.

Allero , 22 days ago

By that I primarily meant "Chinese government is not guilty in atrocities it ordered to commit"

But in general, of course China is a miracle in many ways.

UnderpantsWeevil , 22 days ago

You could write textbooks about bad Chinese policies - foreign and domestic.

But a country on it's fifteenth five year plan is most definitely socialist. And if any nation can qualify as "good", the miracle of Chinese central planning would seem to qualify.

That's why leftists are prone to like it. That, and the derth of foreign military conflicts. At least from the perspective of an American, the Chinese government is practically saint-like, simply because it isn't trying to regime change every country it doesn't like.

Pre-Iraq, I think you could make a much stronger "China bad" argument. But the bar is so much lower now.

toaster , 22 days ago

That's why leftists are prone to like it.

This has not been my experience speaking to leftists at all.

Allero , 22 days ago

The economy of China is not characterized by the common/social ownership of the means of production, which means it is not socialist. No amount of five-year plans can change that.

China does spark international conflicts and does bully its neighbors, but it is true that the country doesn't cosplay world police and doesn't participate much in military operations outside the country, which is a big plus.

As per the bar, it shouldn't fall lower just because some country got even more evil. We can compare the evils, but the evil will be there.

With all that said, I do not say "China bad". But claiming "China good" would also not be correct.

Cowbee , 22 days ago

I don't think people are saying that the PRC is economically Socialist, just that it has a Dictatorship of the Proletariat of some sort and appears to be more keen on keeping its bourgeoisie in check.

Coupled with their intent to challenge Western Imperialism (Lenin's definition), I believe this explains critical support among Marxists for the PRC, despite the many flaws.

Kinda like supporting Biden over Trump, not like supporting Bernie over Trump. You work with what's actually there, even if it isn't what you wished, and hope things change for the better.

Allero , 22 days ago

That makes sense.

UnderpantsWeevil , 21 days ago

The economy of China is not characterized by the common/social ownership of the means of production

30% of their industry is SOEs. They have a 90% home ownership rate and one of the most generous pension systems left standing - affording Chinese workers the opportunity to retire inside their 50s. The local property laws force foreign companies to share equity with regional firms, keeping both profits and IP domestic.

And while the high point of the old-school Commune System is long passed, the household responsibility system still guarantees public ownership of arable land. If you work the land, you own the fruit of your labor. That's textbook Communism.

China does spark international conflicts and does bully its neighbors

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2cf8f13a-fa11-43d8-8d36-752e4292c575.jpeg

the country doesn’t cosplay world police and doesn’t participate much in military operations outside the country, which is a big plus.

It goes beyond the negative. They've been a positive force for international relations, helping to buffer North and South Korea to prevent a new war, exporting $100B/year in agriculture products to curb global hunger, and pioneering industrial scale solar, wind, and nuclear technologies to mitigate climate change.

As a global diplomat, they've got cache that the Western states have squandered, making them a popular back channel in Middle Eastern politics.

And to quote Dr. Lubinda Haabazoka, Director at the University of Zambia's Graduate School of Business

Every time Britain visits we get a lecture, every time China visits we get a hospital.

I would say that alone illustrates why Chinese foreign policy deserves praise.

Allero , 21 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

Textbook communism is an economy that is 100% worker-owned, with everyone's needs directly met without the intervention of money. The rest is not that, by literal definition. Let's not play into the hands of people who want to call that communism and ultra-left to exploit in their own needs.

China does have some strong policies, but it doesn't make it communist by any definition. Also, high home ownership rate is mostly a cultural phenomenon, with housing still seen as "best investment" despite the fact there are entire ghost towns full of houses that never ever filled.

I'm well aware that US pressures China militarily, and that China has a much more peaceful approach. However, Chinese ships regularly bully other countries in the South China Sea against international maritime laws.

The infrastructure China builds is not just a gift - but an investment on which China expects a return. I'm not convinced China is actively pursuing debt trap diplomacy, but it certainly uses economic power to pressure other countries into various concessions.

UnderpantsWeevil , 21 days ago

Textbook communism is an economy that is 100% worker-owned, with everyone’s needs directly met without the intervention of money

Utopian Communism is a stateless, moniless society that was hypothized by 19th century European theorists as a possible result of generations of revolutionary struggle.

But if you sit down and read the textbook, you'll discover even the most idealistic thinkers don't hold that it would happen overnight. Marx, himself, asserts a number of transitional states - industrial capitalism being one of them - necessary to reach surplus volumes capable of sustaining a post-money society.

China does have some strong policies, but it doesn’t make it communist by any definition.

The policies are the direct result of experimental application of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist socio-economic theory. They are explicitly and deliberately Communist, in the same way that American socio-economic policy is Capitalist.

The end goal of Chinese state policy is to advance to a state of publicly controlled superabundance. This is markedly different from the American policies intended to fashion fully privatized ownership of an artificially scare pool of goods and services.

The infrastructure China builds is not just a gift - but an investment on which China expects a return.

A return in the form of improved economic and political relations. It is for the same reason you would bring a gift to a birthday party.

Allero , 21 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

You're right on classics - but off topic.

I'm saying that China does not economically classify as a communist state, neither did even USSR, because it just wasn't feasible at the moment.

I'm combating the change of meaning where communism as officially proclaimed ideology is conflated with communism as an actual economic system. As a result of this, people start thinking that communism is when a state controls some sides of economy and gets involved in social programs, which is not a definition of communism, it's a capitalist state with social elements.

A state can even apply some of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principles, but it is economically capitalist as long as means of production are controlled by private entities looking for profit. This is not an argument about what China should or shouldn't do - this is an argument that China is not economically communist or even socialist, like it or not. Neither was USSR during the so-called New Economic Policy.

A return in form of cash or lease.

UnderpantsWeevil , 21 days ago

I’m saying that China does not economically classify as a communist state

They do. Because they're pursuing communist economic policies.

communism as officially proclaimed ideology is conflated with communism as an actual economic system

Sure. If I'm Elon Musk and saying "By the way, I am actually a socialist. Just not the kind that shifts resources from most productive to least productive" then that's horseshit nonsense.

However, if I'm Luo Wen, the current director of the State Administration for Market Regulation, focused on breaking up monopolies and limiting the capacity of private business to consolidate control in a given industry, I'm both ideologically and actually committed to communist economic principles.

A state can even apply some of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principles, but it is economically capitalist as long as means of production are controlled by private entities

The Chinese state leadership gave up on trying to be direct owner-operators of capital during the Deng Era. However, it still strictly enforces a prohibition on foreign control of domestic capital as a legacy of its anti-colonial mission. The means of production remain property of the Chinese proletariat.

Allero , 20 days ago

Define "communist economic policies".

If you're Luo Wen, you're in favor of state regulations of the capitalist market; you are not pursuing communist policies.

It's not enough to maintain domestic control of the capital - this is a feature of any protectionist regime, even a fascist one. You should also make sure this capital is entirely democratically controlled and owned by the workers - which is not what happens in China. The capital of Chinese businesses is not the "property of workers".

UnderpantsWeevil , 20 days ago

Define “communist economic policies”.

Strict prohibitions on foreign controlling interest in real estate, capital, and intellectual property, for starters.

If you’re Luo Wen, you’re in favor of state regulations of the capitalist market

State regulation for the purpose of limiting foreign ownership, foreign manipulation of domestic markets, and foreign monopoly of natural resources. This leads to:

• Enormous SOEs where demand is inelastic - in the utilities, agriculture, education, and health care sectors.
• Domestication of intellectual property, such that foreign investors effectively subsidize Chinese R&D and future capital improvements
• Large investments in public infrastructure which operates at-cost or at-loss, for the purpose of stimulating domestic economic growth
• Stringent restrictions on what is seen as socially harmful economic activity - casinos/gambling, recreational drug use, electronic entertainment, and reactionary media
• Protecting the viability of public pensions and public insurance, for the purpose of flattening the risk curve and improving long term quality of life

All of these rules are intended to protect domestic markets and maintain local control of business capital.

The capital of Chinese businesses is not the “property of workers”.

It is the property of the Chinese People, as opposed to a cartel of foreign landlords. The surplus produced by Chinese business returns to the Chinese economy in the form of improvements to the socio-economic landscape. Chinese consumers enjoy an abundance of at-cost / below-cost social services, because they are not exposed to the rent-seeking behaviors of the predatory capitalist class. And Chinese business executives suffer the kind of regulatory surveillance and oversight that is largely neglected in Western democracies.

This guarantees that workers enjoy the surplus value of their labor. And that is the end goal of a Communist economy.

Allero , 20 days ago (edited 20 days ago)

Strict prohibitions on foreign controlling interest in real estate, capital, and intellectual property, for starters.

This is protectionism and it has literally nothing to do with communism. Those are two absolute different things that can coexist or not coexist.

Same relates to your other points.

Your rhetoric is eerily similar to protectionist points of Nazi Germany, a very non-communist state that was obsessed with domestic control and protecting domestic capitalist with the proclaimed idea of "capital belonging to all people of Germany", as opposed to "evil Jewish cartels".

Simply trapping the capital inside the country speaks little of what gets to the workers. And if we talk communism, ALL of the capital is directly owned by the collective of workers. Which is not China.

UnderpantsWeevil , 20 days ago

This is protectionism and it has literally nothing to do with communism.

It's protection for domestic ownership of property.

Your rhetoric is eerily similar to protectionist points of Nazi Germany

It was similar to Communist protectionist points of the KDP.

You've been pumped full of bad info, and at this point I don't know what to tell you except to get outside whatever Western propaganda hot house you've found yourself in.

Allero , 20 days ago

As I said, protectionism may coexist or not coexist with communism, as it can with any other economic system.

If you're serious about equating protectionism and communism, you should probably be happy with the way things were done in the Third Reich.

You should seriously reconsider the terms you employ, and read the classics more thoroughly. Also, open the goddamn Wikipedia if you're too lazy for that.

UnderpantsWeevil , 19 days ago

protectionism may coexist or not coexist with communism

Only if you ignore the history of anti-colonialism that gave birth to communist movements in the third world.

If you’re serious about equating protectionism and communism, you should probably be happy with the way things were done in the Third Reich.

That's utterly ahistorical. There was nothing protectionist about Nazi Germany.

Allero , 19 days ago

No, I just state the fact that protectionism doesn't mean communism and globalism doesn't mean capitalism.

They are different terms for a reason.

There was everything protectionist about Nazi Germany, who seeked to give control of German industries to German capitalists.

UnderpantsWeevil , 19 days ago

protectionism doesn’t mean communism and globalism doesn’t mean capitalism

Capitalism requires an economic frontier for continuous growth, which necessitates extraterritorial expansion. Communism requires home rule and self-sufficient domestic industry, which necessitates protectionism.

They are different terms for a reason.

One describes a broad philosophy and the other describes a tool of policy. Might as well say Plumber and Pipe are different terms for a reason.

Allero , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

Communism does not necessitate self-sufficiency, moreover, a switch to fully domestic production is detrimental to any economy. The reason modern economy is globalized is that it's simply more efficient, and capitalist economies are all about efficiency, as it allows to extract more value. At the same time, many past socialist economies were forced to only partner with other socialist economies, which limited their options and hurt their economy.

One of the key reasons communist classics called for a global revolution is to gain the critical mass of communism-aligned countries to minimize this effect and maximize globalization efforts. The communist endgame is one interconnected world without any nations to begin with, not to mention any protectionism.

That's all, like, economics 101.

UnderpantsWeevil , 19 days ago

Communism does not necessitate self-sufficiency

I don't think you've ever actually read the theory.

Allero , 19 days ago (edited 19 days ago)

I don't think you did read Marx, Engels, and Lenin.

Can't say for Mao, did not read his works close enough.

But the communism classics would strongly disagree with you; besides, you stray so so far from the original topic.

squid_slime , 21 days ago

Currently we are witnessing a capitalist genocide in Gaza were children are starving to death and the working class are powerless to stop this. But yea denial on both sides certainty is problematic, the issue is though "tankie" communists will argue propaganda as well as the libs and conservatives. We have been bombarded with fictitious narrative that its a real struggle to find comprehensive and honest reporting of previous events.

Last month I read a "tankies" recap on Tiannamen Square protests, it went as far as to say there was no massacre and quoted creditable journalist that had reported a peaceful evening on the night of the massacre, but I equally saw photos of piled up buddies, bloodied police officers and alike. There's also a conspiracy that the CIA staged the massacre or played some rule within it.

Ive also dealt with american denying the genocide in Vietnam, or Americas rule in creating North Korean.

Solidarity comrade

Cosmicomical , 22 days ago

...and?

cqst , 22 days ago

Maybe political repression and the mass killing of protestors and the internment of ethnic minorities has very little to do with a countries mode of production. Maybe you guys can advocate for an alternative mode of production without defending genocide and using the military to crack down on protests? And maybe liberals can do the same when Western Capitalist Countries do it?

please... :(

Aux , 22 days ago

Socialism is inherently authoritarian and Marx praised genocide in china in 19th century. You cannot support any variant of socialism without being a genocidal fuck.

Bernie_Sandals , 22 days ago

Idk man democratic socialists seem to have been succeeding in doing it almost globally for a century now.

Look at the left of any social democratic party and you're bound to find some.

Aux , 22 days ago

I don't know what you're talking about.

Bernie_Sandals , 22 days ago (edited 22 days ago)

There's this thing called social democracy,
and almost every nation in the world has a social democratic party. The left wing of these social democratic parties tend to be full on democratic socialists.

There's a good chance that the welfare system in whatever country you live in was built by these social democratic parties and influenced by its left wing of democratic socialists.

Even in the U.S. FDR's Liberalism has been called "bootleg social democracy" by some historians, and his policies were influenced (though often more as concessions than willing adoption) of the more socialist leaning unions of his time.
Even today, the progressive wing of the Democratic Party could be described as social democratic, with its leftmost members (Bernie Sanders and AOC) being democratic socialists.

GoodEye8 , 22 days ago

Citation required

UnderpantsWeevil , 22 days ago

Maybe political repression and the mass killing of protestors and the internment of ethnic minorities has very little to do with a countries mode of production.

Or maybe not. You can't deny the intrinsic need to oppress the serfs in a feudalist system. Every economic downturn leads to a new wave of revolts and another cycle of state violence.

The '89 Tianamen protesters came out of state privatization reforms. And the state response (whether you believe that to be mass detainment and expulsion from Beijing or wholesale blood drenched slaughter of innocents) was necessary to continue the process unimpeded.

Maybe you guys can advocate for an alternative mode of production without defending genocide and using the military to crack down on protests? And maybe liberals can do the same when Western Capitalist Countries do it?

The focal point of the conflict is irrevocably tied to the propaganda.

Western Capitalists believe liberal democracy is working to deliver popular policy through nonviolent means. And that China was stripped and gutted of individual freedom under the Maoist revolution. An ongoing brutal genocide is necessary to keep state communist officials in place.

Eastern oriented Maoists believe China is upholding a popular Mass Line, and it is the Western Capitalists who hold their population in a police choke hold, squeezing the life out of a popular socialist revolt with every new generation.

What's the truth? Is popular governance happening in either country? Is it possible at all, or just a pretext for state violence?

Hard to say. But it's clear somebody is lying.

redcalcium , 22 days ago

I may not agree with the devs political view, but I think their work developing lemmy is excellent and made me subscribe to monthly donation on opencollective. Lemmy is an open source project where the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used, as evidenced by so many lemmy instances defederating from lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Their political belief won't affect other instance.

Cowbee , 22 days ago

Most instances are federated with Lemmy.ml, it's Hexbear and Grad that .world and a few others have defederated from, among the major instances.

JohnnyEnzyme , 22 days ago

the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used

It seems like they have some strong say when it comes to their own instance.
According to some recent posts, ML admins (and maybe even mods?) have the ability to erase any record of mod actions, for example disappearing critique of the CCP's brutal actions in Tiananmen Square that were posted on ML. That left no record in the public mod logs, and the users were never informed that their contributions had been (completely) deleted.

I'm only a 1yr Lemming myself, but I never saw such a critique aimed at any other instance, hence why I'm skeptical that the devs don't have influence over how the software is used.

Kalcifer , 22 days ago

the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used

According to some recent posts, ML admins (and maybe even mods?) have the ability to erase any record of mod actions, for example disappearing critique of the CCP's brutal actions in Tiananmen Square that were posted on ML. That left no record in the public mod logs, and the users were never informed that their contributions had been (completely) deleted.

That isn't an example of them having a say over how people use the software. That's them using their own property as they wish.

JohnnyEnzyme , 22 days ago

It's more than just that IMO. It's breaking the stated aim of open federation by tampering with comments, posts and mod records, which in turn get propagated or de-propagated to connected instances, right?

Yes, you may say that ML is of course free to screw with their own instance, but 1) one instance (particular a significant one like ML) affects other instances, and 2) they're breaking the spirit of their own software by shamelessly abusing admin powers, in turn helping to normalize that behavior to the Lemmy side of the FV.

What's the point of leaving oppressive, commercial social media only to run in to the same kinds of abuse of power on a supposedly transparent, user-run, P2P social network?

Kalcifer , 5 days ago

It’s breaking the stated aim of open federation by tampering with comments, posts and mod records, which in turn get propagated or de-propagated to connected instances, right?

I'm not convinced that this is in conflict with the aim of federation. The whole point is to give people the power to create their own instances with their own rules instead of having to rely on a single central authority. The network isn't necessarily distributed — it's decentralized. An instance can administrate their content as they see fit. An instance cannot alter the content produced by any other instance. An instance can only manage the content originating from itself.

---

but 1) one instance (particular a significant one like ML) affects other instances

Would you mind being more specific?

---

they’re breaking the spirit of their own software by shamelessly abusing admin powers, in turn helping to normalize that behavior to the Lemmy side of the FV.

Hm, well, it depends on your perspective. The whole point of the Fediverse is to give people the freedom and power to control how they interact with the service. A server has the freedom to associate with the users that they wish in the same way that you have the freedom to consume what you wish. The spirit of the software is to enable people to have this freedom that otherwise wouldn't exist with a large central service. The way I like to look at the Fediverse is where each instance is like a country, and each community is like a regional/state/provincial government within the country, and federation between instances is like cross-border policies between nations.

---

a supposedly transparent [...] social network?

I'm not sure what you mean by "transparent".

---

a supposedly [...] user-run [...] social network?

It is user-run, in that any user can create an instance.

---

a supposedly [...] P2P social network?

It's not P2P. A P2P network would be distributed. The Fediverse is decentralized.

RoseTintedGlasses , 21 days ago

all instance admins have the ability to do this on their own instance, the functionality was added to deal with doxx info being posted so it wouldnt be visible even in the modlog, and it was used a lot to deal with the CSAM spam attack too - basically whenever this happens the relevant message will still be in the modlog but it will be changed to "Permanently Removed". Currently there's no evidence or even accusation that this functionality has been used for anything except the stated purposes though so i wouldnt worry too much.

JohnnyEnzyme , 21 days ago

That's fine on 'paper,' but can you seriously not understand how it's being shamelessly abused on the Tankie / ML front?

RoseTintedGlasses , 21 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

well i havent seen anyone even claiming its been used against them or pointing to their post being permanently removed from the modlogs unjustly, only people saying that maybe it could be used in this way, so no i dont think that the ML tankie front are using it that way. and since i know it has been used for its stated purpose to fully remove actual doxx information and child porn i dont see why it should be removed as a feature, at very least until there's some evidence of it being used maliciously

JohnnyEnzyme , 21 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

Well then, good for you.

Meanwhile, there's been a legion of solid users here pointing out across the FV that the ML has in fact been abusing its admin powers, or did you think that the whataboutism of CSA would somehow, magically erase that shizzle?

If so, then shame on you.

RoseTintedGlasses , 21 days ago

I didnt say that lemmy.ml mods havent been overbearing with their moderation i said "i havent seen anyone even claiming its been used against them or pointing to their post being permanently removed from the modlogs unjustly".

if you want me to spell it out slowly i can:

• lemmy.ml mods have abused admin powers at some points
• it is possible that the lemmy.ml people could abuse this admin power
• as far as im aware there is no evidence that anyone has misused this specific admin power
• this specific admin power has been used to remove child porn and dox info
• since this admin power has been used for good reasons and hasnt been used for bad reasons it shouldnt be removed as an admin power

JohnnyEnzyme , 21 days ago

as far as im aware there is no evidence that anyone has misused this specific admin power

In that case, then congrats for living in your own little delirium, apart from the many, many reports people have made reporting those specific abuses.

RoseTintedGlasses , 21 days ago (edited 21 days ago)

can you link me a single example of someone saying that they had their post removed from the mod log

JohnnyEnzyme , 21 days ago

Absolutely.
I will make it a special point tomorrow to look up the many, many posts upon that matter made in the last couple days across the FV.

One also wonders what people like you were doing in the meantime, but never fear-- please DO add on with any more requests for such information in the coming days. I will be happy to do the lookups and get back to you. ^^

RoseTintedGlasses , 21 days ago

just to clarify i want evidence of this specific admin function being misused, i and everyone else already knows that the lemmy.ml mods are trigger happy with their bans, but you’re claiming that they’re misusing the anti-CSAM feature to remove comments from the modlog that they actually removed for criticising china to cover their tracks which i havent seen anyone else accuse them of

JohnnyEnzyme , 20 days ago

you’re claiming that they’re misusing the anti-CSAM feature to remove comments from the modlog

Right, that was one aspect of that, but at the end of the day?

What ML has clearly done is to fuck with the integrity of the Lemmy-sphere across multiple, fundamental levels, and that's what I and many others find completely unacceptable, and have of course stated as much.

Seriously, how is it even possible that you're browsing the FV and haven't seen this shit...?

Yes, yes-- I get the fact that you're a 'self-declared weirdo!' "Big proponent for killing all cis men! Token Trotskyite!"

You DO understand of course that civilisation is collapsing fast, much of it due to our bloody inactions, is it not..?