Ukraine destroyed columns of waiting Russian troops as soon as it was allowed to strike across the border, commander says ( www.businessinsider.com )

  • Ukraine destroyed columns of waiting Russian soldiers with HIMARS, a Ukrainian commander said.
  • He said Ukraine targeted them as soon as it got permission to use allied weapons across the border.
  • Military experts say Ukraine's ability to use Western-supplied weapons in Russia is aiding its fightback.
echodot ,

Military experts say Ukraine's ability to use Western-supplied weapons in Russia is aiding its fightback.

Wow, thank God for that expert analysis.

RyanLiu ,

“Destroyed"? Don't you mean "killed" columns of Russian soldiers? Even if they are in the wrong, these are still lives that are lost, not some equipment.

qevlarr ,
@qevlarr@lemmy.world avatar

Not sure, I heard they're actually orcs

Maggoty ,

In the military it's common to talk about groups of soldiers the same way you talk about equipment. Because the crucial information isn't their humanity, it's their utility to the war effort. "Destroyed" is usually used to mean a unit is so broken it must be combined with other units and different militaries have different definitions of exactly how many casualties that takes.

Cryophilia ,

OHAIMARS

No_Eponym ,
@No_Eponym@lemmy.ca avatar

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls1qejqRfx1qg39ewo1_500.gifv

bartolomeo ,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

"So sad that the Ukrainian government cares so little about it's people it is giving Russia an excuse to demolish Ukraine."

- Some Israel Supporter, probably

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/44a6f650-eec6-483c-9d0b-cb2f7782251c.jpeg

I'm waiting for these wars to finally come full circle and for Israel to start selling Russia weapons it got from the United States on the cheap.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Striking those Russian oil and gas facilities really seemed like the thing that made actual impact. But that damaged global trade which America wasn't a fan of.

Sir_Kevin ,
@Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Sounds like a win/win then.

Weirdmusic ,
@Weirdmusic@lemmy.world avatar

Ukraine has both tactical and strategic plans for striking Russian oil and gas facilities. Strategically it's important to hit these facilities as reducing output results in a long term slowdown in Russia's ability to wage war on its neighbours. Tactically it's a way of both boosting Ukrainian morale and also (most interestingly) forcing the US to help resupply Ukraine.

By reducing Russian production, Ukraine is pushing up oil and gas prices which affects the World and, more importantly, the US economy. Due to the US election cycle, inflation is a hot button topic in the US ATM and the Biden administration will do just about anything it can to reduce its impact on the upcoming Presidential election.

It's entirely valid to conclude that the Ukrainian's can bring pressure on the US to provide military aid by attaching Russian oil and gas assets.

Let me be clear: I'm on the side of the Ukrainians.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I support Ukraine too but throwing Ukrainian soldiers into the meat grinder is a lost cause.

What Russia does care about (and needs to keep their invasion going) is money. Which Russia mostly makes from their oil and gas.

So America not allowing Ukraine to hit Russia where it actually hurts means Putin has no reason to agree to a ceasefire. His money keeps flowing and he can keep his war economy going.

SkyezOpen ,

I'm not following. The first part makes sense, but wouldn't driving gas up make Ukraine less popular and less likely to get US aid?

Weirdmusic ,
@Weirdmusic@lemmy.world avatar

That's a good question. The answer lies not so much about the general popularity and sympathy for Ukraine but rather the amount of pressure Ukraine can exert on the the present US administration to leverage more military aid.

The Ukrainians are aware of the level of sympathy they have in the US as the plucky underdog in this conflict. Striking oil and gas targets deep inside Russia doesn't diminish this but rather underlines and reinforces the situation. However, reducing the supply of oil and gas impacts the price of oil and gas and has a knock on effect on inflation.

The majority of Americans don't consciously make that connection, they just feel the pinch in their hip pocket. For better or worse inflation is commonly viewed as domestic issue and this is reinforced by the retoric of those on the right of US politics. So, for many inflation is Joe Biden's fault.

Therefore, by attacking these targets or threatening to, the Ukrainians can bring the very real pressure on the Biden administration. The President has to continue to show support to the Ukrainians (both moral and materiel) while attempting to rein in the Ukrainians ability and desire to strike deeply at oil and gas targets in Russia.

It appears that this delicate balancing game is ongoing with the US administration pressuring their opponents in the Congress to back down on defunding the Ukrainians while at the same time convincing the Ukrainians to back off a little and focus more on military targets.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I wish they didn't have to wait for things like this. It sucks that Ukraine is at the whims of other countries while it's trying to fight to maintain its sovereignty.

chonglibloodsport ,

It makes me so depressed thinking about how many thousands of Ukrainian lives could’ve been saved by just giving Ukraine full and enthusiastic support immediately instead of dragging it out this long.

KevonLooney ,

This was done on purpose so the crisis didn't escalate. There's no world police to prevent Russia from nuking everyone. It's better for outside actors to focus on de-escalation anyway.

Also, Putin is not doing this because of Ukraine. I mean that's part of it, but he is doing it for domestic appeal. He wants to appear tough to Russian citizens. Two situations allow that: beating Ukraine easily, and losing to NATO forces. He knows NATO will not risk invading Russia, so he's in no real danger from the second one.

NATO is intentionally not intervening because it makes Putin look weak domestically. Russia has created their own problem and the war will not end until the people of Russia demand it.

aodhsishaj ,

The only thing that modern diplomacy teaches nation states today is that they need to get nukes as quickly as possible

KevonLooney ,

No it doesn't. The US especially has spent a ton of money building up countries it has defeated in war.

The prime minister decides that their only course of action is to declare war on the United States. Expecting a quick and total defeat (since their standing army is tiny and equipped with bows and arrows), the country confidently expects to rebuild itself through the largesse that the United States bestows on all its vanquished enemies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

aodhsishaj ,

Yes it does, in direct reply to what you said

There’s no world police to prevent Russia from nuking everyone.

The only reason we're slow rolling Ukraine is because Russia has nukes.
Here's a great study on it.
https://assets.cambridge.org/97811071/06949/frontmatter/9781107106949_frontmatter.pdf

azimir ,

Except the Duchy won the war against the US and brought back a hydrogen bomb. They then used that threat to make the league of micro nations. The bomb didn't work, but the threat of it allowed a tiny nation to gain leverage on the geopolitical stage.

Maggoty ,

After killing the people in charge and destroying the country.

rottingleaf ,

Nukes are good, but in fact full arsenal, from home-produced small mortars to MRBMs, and a standing military. Actually, if possible, all the means of power projection the big guys have. Including even proxy militants. Because the big guys back up their words with the blood of the small guys anyway.

aodhsishaj ,

You're speaking about the means of which to project military power on the ground with direct action, I'm talking about the nature of nuclear weapons as a deterrent and how that changes the way soft and hard power is applied.

Nukes make it so that no direct combat need ever take place, look at NK or the inverse where we are applying sanctions against Iran for a current parallel.

rottingleaf ,

It requires very rigid discipline to threaten your enemy with MAD. The more tasks you can solve without testing your own faction's discipline, the better. If every parking place argument gets to threats of nuking the opponent, because you can't threaten anything else, either eventually you'll have to use MAD for such a small cause, or you'll step back on that and then there'll be something a bit more important over which you'll threaten MAD.

And so on, until MAD is in practice useless for you.

aodhsishaj ,

The language you are using reads like you're discussing an RTS.

There's no requirement for any rigid posture except maintaining control over said nuclear arms. Most of NK saber rattling is done to aquire aid and material. Merely having Nuclear arms and demonstrating that control and willingness to use them as a defensive measure is all that's needed. Other countries and powers on the global stage will modify or attenuate their position based on the demonstration of said control

I suggest reading these to better understand my position.

https://oxfordre.com/politics/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780190228637.001.0001/acrefore-9780190228637-e-347

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA585975.pdf

rottingleaf ,

And it's fine when there are states behaving with the responsibility of an RTS player. Will read, thx

SuspiciousCatThing ,

And we (the US) have so much support that we could be giving to them but we're not. We'd rather enable genocide elsewhere.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

The US has too many bases to defend simultaneously to engage with Russia directly. It would be the 18th Anglo-French Wars all over again but with the possibility of a spicy nuclear conclusion at any given moment.

Keeping the conflict contained to the Ukrainian theater means western states get to "bleed" Russia in a protracted conflict without drawing the rest of their assets into a firefight. But we're already seeing the US/Russia conflict leak into the central African states, the Korean border, and recently the coast of Florida.

Americans don't actually want this to become a full blown World War. That drives up our defensive costs significantly and skews the "Stupid Russians Lose Again" headlines with a bunch of "Brave NATO Soldiers Fucked By Insidious Russian Treachery" articles.

aodhsishaj , (edited )

This is patently untrue, look to Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham or Africa https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-extra-troops-east-africa-sudan-evacuation-rcna80678 for examples of this. The US is able to project power globally in a way that Russia has tried to and simply cannot counter. https://www.usip.org/publications/2021/02/what-russias-endgame-syria or https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/5/24/how-russia-tried-to-colonise-africa-and-failed

Even Ukraine is projecting power in Sudan and Syria as a direct belligerent in opposition to Russian interest. https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sudan-syria-cnn-russians-1907835

The United States spends in a year, what the rest of the world spends in 1.2 years. https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0053_defense-comparison There is no historical analogue to the power of the United States military. Unfortunately, this is what we spend our money on instead of Universal Healthcare or our infrastructure, or our schools etc. etc.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA404513.pdf

https://csbaonline.org/research/publications/toward-a-new-offset-strategy-exploiting-u-s-long-term-advantages-to-restore

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

This is patently untrue, look to Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khashamor

Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Battle of Khashamor in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

shrug

The US is able to project power globally in a way that Russia has tried to and simply cannot counter.

Who can forget their famously successful efforts to project power into Afghanistan, Iraq, and Yemen.

Even Ukraine is projecting power in Sudan and Syria

In a report on Monday, the English-language Kyiv Post said it had obtained video from Ukraine's military intelligence directorate (GUR) filmed in March

Listen, I know we're all "Rah Rah Ukraine! Can't wait till they've got boots on the ground in Moscow!" But you can't seriously link to a fucking press briefing by the GUR as unbiased news.

The United States spends in a year, what the rest of the world spends in 1.2 years.

Yes, yes. This is why we can't afford health care. Ye-haw.

But we spend all this money on an endless parade of Wall Street executive compensation packages. Nobody in Russia is getting paid a Boeing CEO's salary to make aerospace equipment that strands folks on the IIS. And while Lockhead and Raytheon have made a mint selling the Pentagon loot boxes, the physical hardware we've produced still doesn't seem capable of winning the fucking war.

There is no historical analogue to the power of the United States military.

There are numerous analogs. But none of them are particularly flattering.

aodhsishaj , (edited )

LOVE what you cherry picked to respond to and completely ignored any direct response to my points. Those Boeing Billionaires are making it soooooo hard for the Russians to project their will against the world at large.

lol here's the corrected article you couldn't find
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham

I've edited my first post.

keep on trollin'

SlopppyEngineer , (edited )

That's Putin's doing. His bluff was strong and he had a big pile of material, so the West is using a Russia technique known as the salami slice method, by slowly escalating and gauging the reaction from Putin. It means no world war 3 scenario, no allies that have to come to his defense and also not letting Putin taking whatever he wants with just bluff and threatening speeches. It is costly in lives and material though.

b3an , (edited )
@b3an@lemmy.world avatar

Can't make salami without grinding meat I guess. As dark as that sounds. I thank every soul who's been fighting against that thugtatorship.

_haha_oh_wow_ ,
@_haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.works avatar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiqFcc_l_Kk

cabron_offsets ,

Fuck russia. Kill the blyats.

kescusay ,
@kescusay@lemmy.world avatar

Good. Make Russian civilians see the horrors of the war they support personally.

Linkerbaan , (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Saw this video on my feed which uhhhhh NSFL (Death) https://x.com/Megatron_ron/status/1805588024803074447

Also lmao at everyone condemning Hamas but Russian civilians being targeted gets them cheering.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

How close to the port is that beach?

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

How close to the military bases were those Kibbutzes?

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

Wuh-wuh-wuhddabout... Get a new tactic. That one is completely worn out at this point.

For our other readers, those missiles were intended for the military facilities nearby and were shot down by Russian AA and debris fell on the beach (hence the lack of explosions)

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

If the comment said "I hope israeli civilians see the horrors or war" I'm sure you would be just as generous with your thought process. Oh wait you'd be calling him straight up Genocidal.

There is no whataboutism cluster munitions are illegal and this is a war crime. This is not debris this is the ATACKMS filled with m74 bomblets.

Just be consistent in your morals. This is like someone defending Hamas gunning down non combatants.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/a8da4180-f9f0-4049-9790-44bd383b907b.jpeg

PahassaPaikassa ,

cluster munitions are illegal

Well, depends on the country. For example, if you are in Ukraine or russia (and surprisingly, Finland) they are legal.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas and israel said they killed no innocents so therefore it's legal.

Assad uses nerve gas? That's legal in Syria. Aint a crime if it's legal! case closed everyone!

https://www.clusterconvention.org/

BlemboTheThird ,

Weird to segue directly from arguing that cluster munitions are illegal into claiming that the legality of weapons doesn't matter, but okay

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Weird to claim that a country claiming their war crimes are legal makes it legal under international law.

DaTingGoBrrr ,

It's illegal to kidnap kids but Russia don't care about war crimes and human rights violations

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. I never said Russia did. Neither does israel.

The question is whether we hold Ukraine to the same standard as Hamas.

DaTingGoBrrr ,

Then the question should be; are we holding Russia, Israel and Ukraine to the same standards at Hamas?

Even that is a weird question because Hamas is not a country. It's a terrorist organisation.

I don't get the point you're trying to make here. I feel like you just want to hate on Ukraine. You are arguing that cluster bombs are illegal, which they are in most part of the world but not in Ukraine, and then crying about Ukraine using it, while blantly ignoring the human rights violations and war crimes committed. Things that are actually illegal internationally.

Kazumara ,

Check that link you posted. It's only illegal in signatory countries. That's how international law works. You can call it morally wrong, but if you call it illegal that's just false unfortunately.

Forester , (edited )
@Forester@yiffit.net avatar

Fun fact, there are only two major countries that employ cluster munitions the United States and Russia. Everybody else has banned them. Since Ukraine is using almost exclusively Russian and American stocks of munitions for this war...

Womble ,

Also China, Korea (Both), Israel, India, Brasil. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions

But apart from that ALL the major countries

Blumpkinhead ,

What does the proximity of the kibbutzes to Israeli military bases have to do with anything? Did Hamas accidentally murder civilians in their homes while trying to go after legit targets?

"Oops, we missed the military base and accidentally cut this old guys head off with a garden hoe and machine gunned some families hiding in their homes! Honest mistake!"

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The guy said "I hope Russian civilians see the horrors of war"

And using cluster munitions is banned. Did Ukraine oopsie a wrong rocket? Honest mistake!

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

And using cluster munitions is banned.

TFW you don't know how treaties work

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So if israel kills Palestinian civilians... first does Hamas get the right to kill israelis indiscriminately?

You don't know how international law works. Cluster munitions are banned. But sure keep on defending civilians being killed. Just a very reasonable person on Lemmy defending the killing of Russian civilians after someone wishes they see the horrors of war.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

You're the only one here talking about Israel and Palestine. The rest of us are talking about Russia and Ukraine. Neither of those two (nor the US) signed the convention on cluster munitions.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I am talking about the double standard of someone wishing harm on civilians and everyone cheering it on.

And that harm on civilians subsequently happening.

Something about a double standard.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

k

systemglitch ,

What's wrong with double standards? It's how humans operate.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Never had much of appreciation for the art of hypocrisy. Might just be me.

systemglitch ,

I think it's impossible for humans not to be hypocrites.

Blumpkinhead ,

So if israel kills Palestinian civilians... first does Hamas get the right to kill israelis indiscriminately?

No, why would you think that?

Blumpkinhead ,

Civilians weren't intentionally targeted by Ukraine, unlike Hamas, who happily murders children.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Less than 3% of the israelis killed by Hamas on October7 were children.

40% of the people killed by this "unintentional cluster bombing" were children

Mhhh

Blumpkinhead ,

Intentional vs unintentional.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Who was intentional

Blumpkinhead ,

Hamas

PrettyFlyForAFatGuy ,

Proximity doesn't matter, the beach is in the flight path so it could be anywhere between the launching point of the missile and the target

andrew_bidlaw ,
@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

Last thing I remember yesterday many condemned Israel for announcing it's land development program that is gossiped as planned on occupied territories. Today there were news of a shitbag minister who voiced a plan to take the West Bank under a military rule (and to convert it into profits?), and I don't see many support to him there as well. Would it be too cynical to ask wtf these settlers would be doing there?

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Condemning israel is like condemning Russia when they kill civilians. Rather easy. Of course people were praising israel initially but we're past that.

The fun part is now the Ukrainan resistance is doing what the Palestinian resistance was doing and asking why people react so differently.

andrew_bidlaw ,
@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

Where's the fun part? I oversimplified this comparison because I felt you did so too.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The fun part is watching people do mental gymnastics to condemn Hamas but praise Ukraine. Both have committed war crimes while resisting occupation, but we seemingly only care when one of them does so.

andrew_bidlaw , (edited )
@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

Wait, what side you care about? It seems I've lost you.

joonazan ,

Does it matter? A discussion is not about signalling that you support the correct side even though social media seems to think so.

PrettyFlyForAFatGuy , (edited )

Russian civilians weren't targeted, the missile was intercepted by russian air defense on its way to a military target. The shrapnel happened to fall on that beach.

Edit: If you're thinking of holidaying in an active warzone, perhaps reconsider.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

That was an ATACM missile with a cluster bomb warhead. Not "shrapnel".

Edit: If you’re thinking of holidaying in an active warzone, perhaps reconsider.

So you're saying israelis holding a rave next to a concentration camp should have reconsidered their location on Oct7?

PrettyFlyForAFatGuy ,

That was an ATACM missile with a cluster bomb warhead. Not “shrapnel”.

It was an "ATACM missile with a cluster bomb warhead" until russian air defence turned it into shrapnel

So you’re saying israelis holding a rave next to a concentration camp should have reconsidered their location on Oct7?

Yup.

Although not sure why we're talking about Israel now, this conversation was about Russia blaming ukraine for bombing intentionally civilians when they were actually attempting to bomb legitimate military targets, likely in sevastapol bay.

The Oct7 attack isn't even comperable, civilians were actively targeted there, not so here

Prandom_returns ,

"Targeted". (Likely just an intercepted missile)

They're on a fucking beach, on illegally occupied land, during an active war. I'm pretty sure they knew the risk.

Play stupid games, grow 🌻

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So you're saying Hamas has the full right to target any israeli because they are illegally occupying Palestinian land and putting the Palestinians in a concentration camp?

Prandom_returns ,

No, learn to read.

Are you comparing a terrorist organisation to a legitimate government?

If you are, go fuck yourself.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Are you calling Ukraine a terrorist organization? They're an independent country from Russia.

Prandom_returns ,

Eat shit.

echodot ,

Obvious troll is obvious. Grow up

Tarquinn2049 ,

I'm sorry that this is the best job you can find right now. It can't be a very fun job. But you are also kind of bad at it, you should at least try to make the post sound like a real human could possibly think the things that are said.

Socsa ,

It's funny because you are still allowed to post these shit takes, but if you switched Hamas and Russia you'd be banned from .ml at light speed.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Did you notice the guy above me wishing bad things to happen to civilians or you just wanna keep ignoring that.

Cornpop ,

I mean those are some stupid russians to be chilling on the beach at the edge of an active war zone

breadsmasher ,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

Pretty sure the kremlin is a legitimate military target

ArcaneGadget ,

Wonder if they could make an explosive filled Cessna stealthy enough for that...

HikingVet ,

They don't need stealth apparently. They have gotten drones into that airspace.

shalafi ,

It's a joke about a guy landing a Cessna in Red Square.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

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