jonny , Are there actually neuroscientists who dont believe that most invertebrates, fish, etc. have lowercase-c consciousness, an internal subjective experience of the world? Is the alternative that they are just reflex machines? Why wouldnt we make the opposite assumption - that animals that have a complex enough nervous system to run a whole body thats responsive to their ecosystem are "conscious" until proven otherwise. But what would the point be of proving otherwise? I guess im just deeply uninterested in semantic games that exclude most of the animal kingdom from the assumption of mere subjectivity.