Is it really even possible for Biden, if he really wanted to, to step aside and for that process to be smooth and effective?
I have heard Democratic centrists say it's not. Thus the whole debate is just hurting Biden. Fair enough. Conservative pundit Jesse Waters (who is not very bright) agreed with this. (he said this because he thinks Biden is easy to beat, I guess?)
I am confident that, should Biden step aside, the focus would instantly shift.
@futurebird The whole discussion reminds me of the transport meme below. Like Zeppelin fans think they have a chance if Boeing would just get out of the way (and not that we'd all just be flying Airbus from now on).
@futurebird I was pro-Bernie and I even voted for Marianne Williams in the recent primary, but since there's no mandate, I don't think anyone other than Biden is feasible right now. He's got the incumbent boost and he hasn't been that bad so far... I think the focus on his age without the corresponding focus on Trump's age on the other side is only hurting him and Democrats' chances in general. Oh well...
@futurebird (IK I don't think it is a waste of time and I was glad to click through and see you were ;P At least you weren't talking about the tone of how people were talking about talking about things.
@futurebird
during the 2016 election and the horrid time trump was in office, most of the USA news industry proudly displayed thier love for trump. Their execs and board members make large donations to GOP campaigns, their editors do things that would make Goebbels green with envy. The editorials they have recently publish do as much to ensure any hypothetical transiton would be as bloody as possible, as they do to make it difficult for Biden to stay.
If Biden passed the honor to Harris* we would instantly be treated to second guessing of that choice and an avalanche of things wrong with Harris mostly in the form of "Is America Ready for a Woman Black President?"
Every person asking this question would say how THEY don't have such issues they are just so "concerned" ... on and on.
*Every time someone discusses replacing Biden with anyone other than Harris my stomach turns a little.
So, I think asking if Biden should step aside seems like a tempting way to make this less stressful to some, and sheer lunacy to others. Both groups of people just want to defeat Trump.
Accusing either side of being bots or Republican trolls is damaging. We're all just trying to figure out how to win the damn election.
Sooner or later the point will be moot. And whatever happens we'll work to win.
For a few months Republicans in the Ohio legislator were threatening not to let Biden on the ballot unless the DNC officially nominated him early. The DNC decided to do just that and lock it in.
Then the Republicans in Ohio suddenly changed course. No need to nominate him early. They realized that locking it in would HELP Biden.
That tells you all you need to know: Republicans love that this debate keeps rolling.
I don't like Biden, or Harris much. I say this openly & clearly because I want other people with serious misgivings to know that working hard to beat Trump is worth their time. Not just by voting yourself, but by helping others to vote.
There are a lot of people with this stance, some are "leftists" yeah but more are people who have been made to feel powerless.
We are not powerless. The muddiness of politics is by design. But we have sonar.
Heck, some of the people who are working to keep Trump out are conservatives.
This is a very big tent so it's pretty easy to get us at each other's throats. I don't know if it's "practical" for Biden to step aside. It might not be. I wish I had more confidence that those with the most influence in what happens were focused on simply winning and not their own proximity to power.
And if Biden stays I hope he can show us what it means to be an old man with grace & self-awareness of his limitations. A man with the self-confidence and wisdom to be open about the support he has from his vice president.
Do you think Biden staying in, but NOT saying things like "only I can do it" ... shifting the tone as I described would alienate or harm the enthusiasm of this base?
I don't have a sense of how large this "base" is. Many people would count me in that based based on my voting and participation in GOTV in 2008, 2020 and this year. I'm not, though nor were most of the people I've worked with.
"A man with the self-confidence and wisdom to be open about the support he has from his vice president. "
👆 This. Pretty important and frankly that this has been so under-emphasized reeks of racism and/or sexism from 6000 km away (meaning: If one is not involved directly in US pol culture, which also means I might be totally wrong and that biased emphasis might be due to the media I am using over here).
@futurebird I saw a poll, in the heat of the "Replace Biden" moment where they asked democrats to pick a candidate if Biden dropped out. Harris was a clear favorite at 29%. (And that was the headline).
But what was most interesting to me was that "No answer/Skipped" was at 31%. I interpreted that as Dems who would pick Biden again.
But let's assume that 60% of dems would go along with Harris. That suggests ~40% in revolt in August!
At the rally yesterday, the president made clear--in no uncertain terms--he was staying in on behalf of the voters who voted for him. (That happens to include me.)
I took him at his word because I know Joe, and Joe Biden does not promise things he can't deliver.
I get your skepticism, @futurebird. Seeing is believing. I can wait until you see it with your own eyes.
In the meantime, I'm going to celebrate the Biden campaign. Biden's rallies are fun.
And fun is good.
Republicans love problems, not solutions. I learned years ago to tune out whatever they're carrying on about at the moment because they're not actually interested in solving anything. You can see it in the immigration bill they pushed and then abandoned when they realized they wouldn't be able to complain about the issue if they actuall "fixed" it. They want the problem.
Agreed, but the insanity of proposing something and then killing your own solution because you want to use the problem to win an election is proof that the GOP is not a serious party anymore. They're just a bunch of assclowns trying desperately to hold onto the privileges they believe they're entitled to.
@tstrike78@futurebird I agree with you that Republicans suck, but I think that at this very moment there are a bunch of Trump people putting together a whole bunch of ads using footage from the debate, interviews, etc. that will portray Biden in the worst possible light. They will start releasing them as soon as Biden is nominated at convention and they will probably be worse than any attack ads we've ever seen.
That's true. This isn't going to be easy at all. But I still think it can be done.
I think it's clear there are a lot of people who aren't treating this election like the game show the Republicans wish it was. They have been tossing out norms like the house is on fire for years and now they want the old logic of gaffs and make or break debates to apply as if this were a normal election? Forget that!
Did you hear about how Trump wants to make the announcement of his VP pick kind of like the Apprentice? It's a brilliant marketing idea really. It could help the RNC convention get higher ratings. Trump is upset that Biden has been getting more press even if it is bad. He understands that to some extent, being talked about the most matters most.
And it would ... except with Jan. 6 they exited the realm of normal politics.
It's not a contest. It never was just a contest but I think more people can see this now.
This isn't some fun poll about who you want to have a beer with or who is more outrageous. There is more to this than feeling smug when your liberal cousin cries.
Our nation is being liquidated like chain store. They are carrying all the valuables out of the back while some of us watch the Maury Povich trash show in the front.
I just came across this Ohio issue too. May I ask (being non-US and not so familiar with your system), are there any similar tight deadlines in otehr states? I found 7 Aug for Pennsylvania too.
In any case the point seems to me that the Dems would only have a few weeks to decide on an alternative, and is that even possible any more?
I have not heard of any other states doing what OH did. As much as I worry about them being on top of things I do think the Biden Campaign is on top of this.
There is an issue with installing a new candidate that some people may be underestimating. And the possibility of the Supreme Court being involved in that and they can't be trusted.
I'm just going to focus on getting people registered and ignore this mostly.
@futurebird
Thanks!
It seems odd to me that people are discussing the political pros and cons of new candidates without first checking if it is actually still possible, purely from a logistic/organisational/legal point of view. Looks like the ship has sailed.
I hope many people will do what you do, get folks registered and get them to vote. Good luck!
@futurebird I'm in the Biden must go camp. If for no other reason than his ongoing support of GENOCIDE against mostly kids.
But the worst part is that his numbers have always been shit against Trump. He will lose. We need fresh blood that can take that criminal POS on. It just is so clear to me that new blood may generate a measure of enthusiasm currently utterly lacking. I think we must brace ourselves for the horror of Trump back in office.
@LightFIAR@futurebird No candidate put forward now other than Biden will face Trump without their legitimacy being challenged every step of the way:
DNC will be challenged in court for illegitimately changing candidates before the General Election. In a Trump backed court. And it will be a swift trial unlike the ones aimed at him.
News will spread more hit pieces on Democrat failures. ("Reeks of desperation", "Is this the end of the Democrat National Committee", "Charges pressed by millionaire Biden donors wanting their DNC and PAC/SuperPAC contributions paid back after Biden replaced", "Democrats leading cause of civil violence; separate polling places to physically split GOP from Dem voters in Arkansas", etc.)
States omitting Democratic President entries because we didn't follow the rules the GOP never cared to enforce until now. (No one will take Trump off the ballot, but red states will stop the presses and reprint every ballot overnight the morning of Nov. 4th to ensure Trump wins by default because they don't recognize Biden's replacement. So they will omit them, whoever it is.)
If you can imagine it, it's being planned. All of it hinges on delegitimizing the will of the people. And it starts by making Democrats throw out everything by themselves.
DNC will be challenged in court for illegitimately changing candidates before the General Election. In a Trump backed court. And it will be a swift trial unlike the ones aimed at him.
How can we expect them to defend democracy if they can't even win that fight? It's a non-issue, the precedent is clear that political parties can choose their candidate at the convention. 'Presumptive nominee' is not an official position, it's just a description of a situation. Why should we fear frivolous legal challenges?
“Sooner or later the point will be moot” That time has already passed.
We have the people and tools we have, they are in the positions they are in, the battle is engaged now already. The 11th hour is a crappy time for change. Dissatisfied? Then remember; right now is noon hour for the next race, and dawn for the one after that. And making the future races represent you better does involve winning this one as it is.
@futurebird lol "hurting biden" is irrelevant, people are only talking about this because he's such a bad candidate.
and who cares what shit he'd get for dropping out and leaving it to harris, that's kind of the deal when you become a presidential candidate. he literally signed up for this.
him doing this or dying before the election terrifies me because it would open up potential avenues for people to dispute the election at the supreme court - valid avenues? not really. but that doesn't really matter with this court
i've been listening to a lot of Black folks around my age who discuss the seen longterm impact on folks of having to consistently vote for the lesser of two evils. like the impact on individuals, not just the impact on wider politics.
and honestly i think that's the real conversation we need to be having here. biden isn't the problem. biden's a symptom.
My parents were talking about this. They are ... optimistic? More than I am. Because they've seen this country when it's been much worse and they expect and are used to the backlash. Every time black people have made a little progress there has been a kind of punishment for it.
Similar things are happening for trans people and gay people. They see those parallels.
Because the way they see it they have made space for themselves, for our family and we are doing OK. Just keep carving out more space, no matter that we are in this hostile substrate. And how could we know that some other place might be any better? We helped shape this country and WE are (and you are) some of the best things about it. They gave me a little pep talk that mostly worked.
But, I also really get it, the stress is unacceptable.
@futurebird
I suspect a bunch of us are on the same page of: We just want the candidate to win who has the best chance of beating Trump, whoever that ends up being.
But whoever it ends up being (Biden? Harris? Johnny Rando Dem?). If they lose to Trump, you can guarantee there will be a flurry of news organizations and individual takes second-guessing how they should have gone with some other option, told you so!
@futurebird
I’m one who’s really looking forward to supporting her own Presidential campaign in the not-too-distant future! But for now, I’m Ridin’ With Biden! 🙂
If Biden allows for anyone else but him to be the Democratic nominee, the lawsuits from Republican states, counties, and localities would overwhelm any possibility of having a fair election or a clear winner, it would be a soft coup
We gotta dance with the girl who brung us, better or worse. I for one can't think of a better choice than Joe Biden.
@futurebird I made the argument to a friend that the only way I could see Harris win would be for Biden to resign so that she had a few months as president before the election, but I don’t see him doing that.