The problem I have with many "fiction-first" games: they force a certain playstyle through playbooks. Here is the narrow way your character can advance mechanically. You can pretend the fiction offers other options, but that's illusionary.
I like the ideas behind a lot of "Powered by the Apocalypse" or "Forged in the Dark" games, but when I actually start digging into them the playbook approach is what loses me, except for one-shots.
@CatDad You hit one of my bugbears! Moves feel like a superfluous extra layer that adds little of use [predetermining an output] for a lot of downside. On the downside, the mental gymnastics button pushing problem [having to do extra effort to justify Move use] is so bad it's even a canonical example in Apocalypse World! [Shooting someone? No move fits good, so I guess we'll just call it Seize By Force because you're uh, seizing their flesh.]
@thoughtpunks@CatDad Yes, that bugs me too about these games, although I very much prefer the philosophical approach behind them.
I try to find a way to bridge the gap between the two approaches with my own system and so far tests seem promising (still a long way to go). But it’s seems to be either full crunch with little flexibility or all fluff with only superfluous mechanics for most systems. If you like a good set of rules to build interesting character concepts but also want the freedom of storytelling-based games, you’re hard-pressed to find some good fits.
Best cases I can think of would be the old diceless Marvel Universe RPG, Cypher and FATE, which do a fairly good job at this.
They all have their flaws though, too. MURPG can only really be plausibly used in a comic-style context (which also speaks to its consistency) and requires some player discipline in not abusing the way expected difficulties work. Because once players get them, you can get to a point where it’s impossible for them to fail at anything, if you go strictly by rules.
FATE is extremely cumbersome and slow until everyone at the table knows its mechanics by heart. Then it can move lightning-fast. But, yeah, that can be a problem when getting to know the system. And you pay for its freedom in storytelling with a lot of rules and paragraphs.
FATE Accelerated, its little brother, does a much better job, I think. By sacrificing some of the openness regarding stats, btw. There is a lesson in there. Might be worth a look if you don’t know it already.
Cypher is, well, pretty well written overall but very much in love with some of its more quirky aspects and puts a lot of focus on them, basically requiring you to build your setting around that idea. And I don’t even think „cyphers“ are the most exciting part of the system. Also, I think its conflict resolution mechanism is not very intuitive, even though it is rather simple from a technical point of view.
Prolly subjective, but it didn’t „click“ with me. It tries too hard to be open while not really being so. It works great with „The Strange“ though.
@orangelantern@CatDad my games are player-facing and generally fiction forward, but in a much more classic way. If you take 80s indie [rules lite] gaming and make it player facing, that's about where I'm at. I also like my player resources diegetic, not OOC subgame like Fate. So for example I have a game with Favors and Secrets, where the story points are in-game explainable. Cypher is a little too neo-trad for me, but I appreciate the niche it fills.
@orangelantern@CatDad in terms of the ultra-lite/handwavey, if you're actually into that and player-side, I really recommend FU Freeform Universal RPG. Not exactly my cuppa personally, but it's an iconic example.
@orangelantern@CatDad I honestly can't remember if it has progression or not or how it works. Tangent: Connecting to the diegetic resources thing, one thing I want to see more of is investment of in-game resources as progression. It's something I've only very rarely seen in the wild outside of my own few games using it.
@thoughtpunks@CatDad Kinda like olden day D&D used gold as a lvl-up resource? I am not too much of a fan of this, because it will make players base all their ingame-decisions around this resource. It's not that different from using XP, which are supposed to be an abstract thing, and the party frantically looking for an Orc to kill because they're this close to levelling up.
In my own system I'm using story-milestone-based level-ups with set talents to choose from for each character archetype. In context of the complete package it works really well. So far. There has been no long-term campaign test of this to date.
There is something incredibly satisfying, almost primal, about a "level-up" and getting stuff. I did my best to not make it about something specific in the world, but general progress as a character, as a hero and in the context of the adventure story.
I have seen systems trying to tie it to reknown, specific deeds, currency, world events or even magic objects the characters need to find. It all results in the stories being all about aquiring this resource. If you want this, then this is ideal. If not, well, it probably won't be a good fit.
@orangelantern@CatDad I'm not so much a fan of pure gold/kill rewards. More things that will hook active play, like accruing the aforementioned Favors and Secrets. Things that can be gained by engaging with the game premise but not by grinding. They definitely need to be well-tuned to the concept and broader play or it just become the grind or fetch questing.
@thoughtpunks@CatDad I love the mechanics in the games I have seen from you so far, but they‘re clearly not meant to be campaign-sustainable.
Eat Trash Do Crime ranks among my favorites. :raccoon_cool:
Oh yes, the game within the game is what keeps me away from Fate most of the time as well.
Since my players asked me to do it and we have the giant-ass city map already hanging on our wall in the gaming room, I will be running a campaign in Monte Cook‘s Ptolus setting later this year. Ptolus now has crunch for D&D5 or Cypher and both options don’t exactly fill me with excitement. I think I will be using this as a longer testing run for my own ruleset (my players seem to be fine with this), because both official options do not offer what we all enjoy — meaningful character crunch with open playstyle and interpretation. Even though Cypher is really close.
@orangelantern@CatDad Oh for sure, most of my games are one-shot to miniseries aimed. I don't expect Eat Trash! Do Crime! to sustain a full year weekly campaign. 😆 Thanks for the kind words!
And yeah, we're same page on Fate. I'd play more Fate games if it weren't for the OOC player/GM haggling. Just throws me out.
If Cypher is close but so far away, what makes it fall short for you?