Idk, I think pushing to move the party left and working within the bounds of the party positions are kind of mutually exclusive, right?
Like as an example, if I thought we should all have pineapple on pizza, but the party position was to have mushrooms instead, I would need to vocalize that desire for pineapple somehow, right? I would at least say, "hey, I don't want mushrooms on my pizza. Could we do pineapple instead?".
I don't think quietly accepting the mushrooms is at all compatible with pushing for pineapple.
Um, no? You can vote and push for change at the same time.
Imagine half of the people in the room wants shrimp pizza, which you happen to detest. Yet you're exclusively dunking on and shouting at the mushroom group to keep it shut and stop suggesting mushrooms. Well?
I know you've got a ban but, hopefully you can see this.
I find it concerning that I no can no longer tell which group is supposed to be the one telling the other to shut up about the toppings
This is actually a rather good reflection of the reality, though maybe not the way that you intend. Anti-electoralism, accelerationism, and right-wing politcs, by the data on outcomes are equivalent. It is hard to tell, at this time, whether an individual supporting the former two is genuinely a believer, a state actor, or other political operative.
demand your government represent your interests, instead of ignoring them
Is that what you think will happen? You think Biden is watching memes? Or is it more likely that only normal people will see it because you're not a lobbyist?
Interesting outlook. If you REALLY wanted to change things you'd be posting the phone numbers of congresspeople who voted for aid to Israel. The president doesn't create the aid packages any more than he reads your memes.
Doing both. The POTUS doesn't read Lemmy and go "haha these fools are gonna vote for me, I don't gotta change shit". To the extent you can influence that office at all, you can do it while simultaneously urging people to vote for the lesser evil.
Parent-child is a pretty laughable analogy for politician-public. But memes are kind of like little tantrums so I guess meme harder and maybe some politician will put a binky in your mouth ;)
Maybe it's a silly analogy. Maybe i'm a baby. Maybe i'll get a binky in my mouth.
Maybe i've forgotten my point.
No wait, now I remember: maybe if I show lemmings that their little echochamber isn't as bulletproof as they thought, they'll realize they can't count on people just holding their noses and voting for their genocidal candidate in November. Maybe then they'll stop fucking around and actually do some political organizing.
Go ahead, pressure the lesser evil to be even less evil, but you still have to vote for said lesser evil, or you're gonna be stuck with the massively bigger evil and no human rights.
How many people do you think will vote for even a lesser evil? Go ahead and direct your effort into reinforcing that decision to me but unless you convince the millions of other people who don't share your concern for trump we'll all be stuck with the massively bigger evil and no human rights.
I'm pushing to make the lesser evil less evil. You're pushing for people to hold their nose and vote for the lesser evil without even demanding they try being a little less evil.
Maybe you should advocate that Biden not refuse that demand.
It would be great if Biden changed his view. I hope that the changing views of the American electorate on Israel and the protests relevant to that change pressure him into doing so.
But when you say "Well, it's actually completely okay if you decide that allowing fascism is the better choice if Biden doesn't change his mind😊", what you're saying is "I don't give a fuck how many Palestinians OR American minorities die, and I don't care if I ever get a say in governance again."
Oh yes, just the other day I was offered a trip to the White House to discuss my policy positions with Biden, and I stood up on my one good leg, and firmly said "NO! I will NOT go and take my criticism to BIDEN HIMSELF! If he wants to hear my criticism of him, he can log into Lemmy like everyone else!"
and expect voters to just accept genocide.
No, actually, I expect voters to vote against "more genocide", something that seems extremely controversial to people who want MORE genocide, for reasons that Definitely Make Sense From A Left-Wing Perspective. I guess more dead minorities is... left praxis...?
Voters aren’t going to move their position on this.
Oh, voters aren't going to change from desiring more genocide? Makes sense, considering how stubborn you are on insisting that as many minorities be killed as possible.
I mean you are the one arguing in favor of genocide bro, not me.
I'm making the argument that we take our issues up with the politicians who are trying to curry our favor, and withold our support so that they take on policy positions that enjoy more widespread approval, thus increasing their chances of getting elected.
You are the one arguing that we shouldn't bring our criticisms forwards and instead should suffer the deeply unpopular policy positions these politicians have taken. The issue is that is a guaranteed L for Biden. By supporting a politician with bad policies, you are setting them up to lose the election. He can't win if he continues supporting this genocide. He has to shift his position, and the only leverage we have right now is to withhold our support.
I mean you are the one arguing in favor of genocide bro, not me.
Oh, okay, so now you agree that it is necessary that Biden is elected, and that playing games with "It's actually completely okay that you're voting third-party, I'm so proud of you 😊" games is actually dumb as shit. Glad we're in agreement now, shame it took you so long to come around.
You are the one arguing that we shouldn’t bring our criticisms forwards
When did I say that? Feel free to quote me.
By supporting a politician with bad policies, you are setting them up to lose the election. He can’t win if he continues supporting this genocide. He has to shift his position, and the only leverage we have right now is to withhold our support.
Ah, yes, the only way we can ensure Biden WINS the election is by doing everything we can to ensure Biden LOSES the election. Fucking brilliant. Next we'll play chicken on the railroad tracks.
The lemmy propaganda army has shifted their strategy. Now we're hurting Biden's chances by not letting them freely spread bad faith bullshit without any pushback.
Then your choices are reduced to "Allow politicians to know that your 'demands' mean nothing because they have no consequences" or "Let the fascist win".
By the way, really loving the "LOL let's just wing it" attitude towards the potential murder of millions more people. Makes me feel real warm and fuzzy inside to know that the pro-minority attitude of the online left isn't even deep enough to be performative.
You're eating genocide either way, unless you have a fucking miracle candidate up your sleeve you've been hiding 'til now. The difference is, you've chosen the "All Trump Can Eat" genocide buffet.
Biden isn’t a realistic candidate if he doesn’t shift on Palestine.
How convenient, Biden isn't a realistic candidate if he doesn't shift his position on YOUR issue of choice. Meanwhile, most of the American electorate puts foreign policy near the bottom of their list of concerns.
He’s been polling below Trump for over a year. He suffers a 12 point polling error spread.
Oh, and he'll gain 12 points from swapping positions on Palestine?
You've catalyzed a huge cohort of people against your position and approach. Do you see how many people are becoming activated and joining the conversation just to strike you down? This is because of your approach to rhetoric. You are actively costing Biden votes, like.. right now.
You can't do this by convincing people to vote for the lessor. If you want the audience to vote for Biden, you have to take a different approach
You’ve catalyzed a huge cohort of people against your position and approach. Do you see how many people are becoming activated and joining the conversation just to strike you down?
Oh damn, you've got me, let me check the ratios along these comments
Still waiting for you to tell me how Palestine will win Biden 12 percentage points, in your view.
So if I present to you evidence that voting uncommitted in the primary isn't evidence of intent to withhold their vote in the general, you'll withdraw your position?
Still waiting for you to tell me how he's going to gain 12 percentage points from an issue that is one of the lowest rated on voter's important issues.
Bro 30% of voters in MN, one of the most reliably democratic states in the country held their votes back from Biden because of Palestine.
If Biden doesn't get WI, MN, IL and MN, he's done. 0 chance. He can't get those states right now. The only question is what is it going to take to get him to move policy positions, and what is showing effectiveness in this regard is withholding support.
Fighting the good fight against accelerationism, authoritarianism, and bad faith. I don't have the emotional energy to do so with any consistency at this time - the 21st century has been very draining. Make sure that you take time for self-care. @pugjesus you too.
FYI: I voted uncommitted to send a message to Biden that I care about Gaza and what happens there. I also recognize that the Republicans will jump in with both feet on "burn it to the ground with nuclear fire", so I did what I could to communicate with Biden, and will also be voting for him in the general. I'm one vote, but I know I'm not the only person with that view.
You've catalyzed a huge cohort of people against your position and approach. Do you see how many people are becoming activated and joining the conversation just to strike you down?
LMAO he's clearly getting more and more upvotes. While you're getting downvoted and removed. You're so delusional.
Keep it up though, you're doing a great job of the exact opposite of what you think you're doing.
Who's the alternative candidate with a reasonable shot at winning that has a policy that is more beneficial for Palestinians than Biden?
Don't say something stupid like "polling less than 1% for the 5th time Jill Stein" or "I'm not even sure which party I'm the candidate for but I need to sell some more books Cornell West".
It's not a refutation, its a question expressed with skepticism.
Regardless I don't think anyone is interested in explaining their path to the required 270 electoral college votes, but if you are I'm interested in hearing it.
Okay, that's not really how politics works at all any where in the world. I guess having such a simplistic and idealistic view of how politics works is what led you to the conclusion that any of the 3rd party candidates had a shot at getting elected.
We only have to eat genocide if we choose not to send the food back
What was your plan to send the food back and ensure that the genocide buffet wasn't returned in response, again? Was it "We're going to say 'no' very firmly despite 48 of the 100 people at this table eagerly voting for the genocide buffet"?
Frankly i’m hoping the chef cares enough about that possibility that he serves up something different
Pretty big hope to lay on a chef who knows that a little genocide is already popular with a significant portion of the 52 other people on the table.
Pretty long odds to make on the lives of millions of people.
I really think it’s the customers basic obligation to at least say ‘whatever the chef recommends BUT ABSOLUTELY NO GENOCIDE’
We absolutely should say that. But when the chef comes out, and if it's a genocide sandwich, and the only other option if we send it back is that the chef opens up the genocide buffet for the the 48 customers at the table drooling at the prospect...
You have to know when to bite the bullet.
If you’re not at least saying that idk what to tell you, you’re probably gonna get genocide
Man, I'm sittin' here saying that Israel is committing one of the greatest crimes of the 21st century. I've called it a genocide, I've said even passive support of it is a stain on America's collective soul, I've advocating for boycotts, removal of ALL aid, just about everything short of a no-fly zone over the AO - and fucking honestly, if the ongoing conflict in Ukraine wasn't a current concern, I'd be advocating for that too.
But when it comes down to it, if my choices are 'less genocide' or 'more genocide', I'm not going to tell anyone voting for 'more genocide' that their choice is OK and I understand and forgive them for sending me and my loved ones to the camps. Like, maybe if it was a question of "It's you and your's, or me and mine", I could understand and forgive that, but it's not. Trump's genocide here and in Ukraine will not alleviate the Palestinian genocide; he will, in fact, intensify it. There's no excuse. And I'm not going to pretend there is.
Man, I’m sittin’ here saying that Israel is committing one of the greatest crimes of the 21st century. I’ve called it a genocide, I’ve said even passive support of it is a stain on America’s collective soul, I’ve advocating for boycotts, removal of ALL aid, just about everything short of a no-fly zone over the AO - and fucking honestly, if the ongoing conflict in Ukraine wasn’t a current concern, I’d be advocating for that too.
and then you're saying "but i'll fucking DEVOUR that genocide if you serve it up to me anyway, and i'll get all my friends to commit to eating it too"
But when it comes down to it
Woops, you've already accepted defeat to genocide there. Even your performative outrage isn't all that strong, if you're eager to move past the choice Biden has to not serve it to you.
and then you’re saying “but i’ll fucking DEVOUR that genocide if you serve it up to me anyway, and i’ll get all my friends to commit to eating it too”
Because the alternative is the genocide buffet. Have you already forgotten that?
Woops, you’ve already accepted defeat to genocide there. Even your performative outrage isn’t all that strong, if you’re eager to move past the choice Biden has to not serve it to you.
Cool, instead the backup chef comes out. It's Trump. Genocide buffet, including the sandwich we rejected. So glad that we've made things worse for no gain. Great job, us. Maybe a little circlejerk before we're taken out and executed will lift our spirits.
Then let's fucking storm the kitchen then? idk why you're so eager to dismiss doing literally anything else before being made to eat the genocide. All i'm doing is screaming "I DON'T WANT TO EAT GENOCIDE! LET'S GET HIM TO CHANGE THE MENU A BIT", and you're like 'lol nah man, you're embarrassing yourself, better to just get everyone to calm down and get ready to eat it'
Obviously you don't have to answer, but if you are not ready to do that, or you think that it will end in failure, then harm reduction is the only moral choice.
If you're ready to fight and die for a better world, if you think peace has run its course, if you think only political violence can resolve the issue and that the resulting death toll will be less horrific than the currently proposed one, then by all means. But if you are not ready - if you think the polity is not ready, if you think there are other, preferable routes to explore, if you think the death and suffering will be worse than either of the current options - you must sit down and bite the bullet.
I'm not of the opinion that a long and bloody civil war which has a high chance of resulting in one or several fascist states in the former USA arising while our allies themselves struggle with emerging far-right movements inspired by the violence in the USA and the provocation of far-right states in the world is worth me expressing moral disgust with support of a genocidal state at this point in time. The calculus of suffering there is horrendously lopsided, and not in favor of starting a civil war. If it's Biden, complete with support of a genocide, or civil war, I pick Biden as the choice which causes the least human suffering.
Don't bother fighting with that cunt, he's one of those liberals that loves genocide and wants people to shut up and support it. No amount of talk could convince him to stop supporting genocide or attacking people who don't want to
"Makes me feel real warm and fuzzy inside to know that the pro-minority attitude of the online left isn’t even deep enough to be performative." very funny bullshit coming from someone who's so "pro-minority" he would go all out to defend the mass murder of Palestinians and shut down any attempt to protest it
He hates Palestinian children having the freedom to not starve and not get bombed. He can't shut up about how people critical of the genocide need to shut up and stop supporting trump (bc there's truly nothing more trump-ish than opposing genocide)
Idk, It's a little more fun when he's the subject of the chastising than it is seeing all his crocodile tears in my homepage for minorities while he's defending an actual genocide.
Please enlighten me on how this is a boy who cried wolf situation? Trump has materially done many, many, many things that would individually be disasterous
Are you seriously arguing that he's not really all that bad, or are you just here to troll?
In the end, a wolf actually does come and eat the boy. The wolf is real, the boy just abused his post too much and now he can't rely on people responding to his cried.
the lesson was supposed to be 'don't cry wolf', but we've already moved on to the 'he's just crying wolf' part of the story and now the boy has to figure out how to get people to help him
The story had nothing to say about the rationality of ignoring the warning, just that it was foolish for the boy to abuse it.
You can either cross your fingers that enough people still believe you or find another way to bring them out (convince the boy to stop supporting.... the.... the other wolf I guess? Idk this analogy is getting tired)
He doesn't realize that US military funding of Israel has been paused many times - including by Biden - as a lever to try to force change. That funding is the leverage we have over Israel. Fully halting it eliminates that leverage, and then what?
Also, the GOP has put forward legislation to remove the ability of the president to pause those deliveries, which also eliminates that leverage in a worse way. Biden has said he would veto that bill, by the way.
I've mentioned this before, as you well know, but it deserves mentioning again here. The fact that you can criticize Biden and there's an outside chance he'll listen makes him the better candidate than the guy who listens to nobody on anything that's not about how to make him more money, with disregard to whether the money-making scheme is legal.
Edit: Let's also not forget that the guy who listens to nobody also uses literal WWII Nazi language at his presidential campaign rallies, kind of all the time - along with an ever-increasing litany of repugnant behaviors, any one of which would have immediately halted any other political campaign in its tracks. But let's not ever criticize that; it's all the Democrats' fault.
I've also said that the people who bark about this, only ever criticising Biden and Democrats, are either foreign propagandists or wholly taken by them. I stand by that statement.
He doesn’t realize that US military funding of Israel has been paused many times - including by Biden - as a lever to try to force change. That funding is the leverage we have over Israel. Fully halting it eliminates that leverage, and then what?
If only there was an international body charged with prosecuting international crimes, and if there was such a body, thank God it's Biden in the white house and not Trump, who would surely obstruct bringing justice and pressure to the Isreali leaders conducting the war crimes.
If only it was domestically illegal to send weapons to foreign nations who were found to be using them to commit war crimes, that way at least Israel would know our hands were tied if they keep committing them
If only there was an international coalition of nations that could sanction Israel for committing war crimes. I'm sure if there was we would certainly not obstruct justice being brought there
If only the US had a functional military, so they could use it as a last resort to put an end to a literal fucking genocide.
What a sad reality we live in.
I’ve also said that the people who bark about this, only ever criticising Biden and Democrats, are either foreign propagandists or wholly taken by them. I stand by that statement.
Do you think Trump would relent if I was yelling at him to stop the genocide Biden was supporting?
Do you think republicans would listen to moralistic appeals to stopping genocide?
Are there even any full-throated republicans on lemmy?
This 'why aren't you complaining about republicans?!' bullshit is a transparent deflection of responsibility from the people who are actively involved in the genocide. And I stand by that statement.
a 365 day voter is one who pushes for better politics every day of the year, a one-day-every-four-years voter is one who only shows up on election day and does fuck all the rest of the time.
The barn door for fuckery would be politicians getting to run carte-blanche on policy positions without pushback because the one-day-every-four-years voter didn't show up except for the day of the election and now has to choose between the options already selected for them by the time they wake up.
Fascism happens when the fascists are 365 day voters and the non-fascists are One-day-every-four-years voters.
a 365 day voter is one who pushes for better politics every day of the year
Ah- so like a delusional self-righteous person that thinks babbling on the internet is a form of activism. Gotcha. I'm just a registered voter that votes and calls reps about important issues. Basically the same as your 365 thing but not as hilariously pretentious.
I'm more of a realist and recognize nothing we say to each other is helping Palestinians. Voting\donating are the only material support we can offer them. But I know it's fun and satisfying to play pretend that you're an ally to the downtrodden.
Those are honestly good courses of action, and I'm not here to discourage that, but what you're describing is defeatism, not realism. It's deciding that your representative cannot be swayed by protest.
I will admit taking a bullhorn and screaming at the people causing the problem is pretty cathartic. Maybe if we were all saying the same thing it would feel more effectual.
It’s deciding that your representative cannot be swayed by protest.
Adorably naive. They're 'swayed' by donors, votes, and sometimes lawsuits. At best they'll give lip service to your protest.
But democracy doesn't and can't depend on 'swaying' representatives, it depends on voting in those that represent you and voting out those that do not. The 365 day voter thing is cute and all- just remember to actually vote.
democracy doesn’t and can’t depend on ‘swaying’ representatives, it depends on voting
Fucking hell, it depends on a hell of a lot more than voting. If you're not engaged in making your policy desires known then you're in no position to complain about how regrettable it is they're committing atrocities.
If you’re not engaged in making your policy desires known then you’re in no position to complain about how regrettable it is they’re committing atrocities.
If only there was an international body charged with prosecuting international crimes, and if there was such a body, thank God it’s Biden in the white house and not Trump, who would surely obstruct bringing justice and pressure to the Isreali leaders conducting the war crimes.
I'm just going to leave this link here for you.... Hopefully you'll have the good sense to delete this comment once you see how incredibly wrong you are. Biden is doing - TODAY - the thing you were afraid Trump might possibly do next year.
Because the lesser evil isn’t reading Lemmy, but lots of people on Lemmy can vote? If you’re using social media to organize in a way that will have real visibility, then more power to you. But if you think memes on Lemmy are going to influence the White House, I’ve got some bad news for you.
