Don't vote for Biden. Vote for democracy. Vote for liberty. Vote for progress. Biden is an extremely fallible, flawed,
individual. His name is on the ticket but there is something more. Most important and this is where everyone drops off. Keep voting.
At the very least vote so you don't have to slog through an orange homunculus disrupting your daily struggles with more fear, terror, and human suffering.
Vote for a kick to the nuts over a kick in the ass!
So inspiring. Fuck Biden for making that his offer, honestly. If that's still the choice come november RIP democracy I guess, I don't know many people who feel enthusiastic enough about genocide to miss work to vote for it.
Jokes on them, not voting is voting for more Genocide. I'm certain their enthusiasm for life will hit all time lows when they have Trump in the headlines every single day while more rights are stripped away.
The people you know. Suck.
Edit:
And I'm not some sort of all seeing oracle. I believe what I see with my eyes. Though it would be nice to gouge them out
Then do me a kindness and stop directing your rage at people angry at the same thing, and do something useful with it.
For myself, i'm not just angry at the democrats, i'm angry at all these impotent liberals who are happy to get in line 5 months early to get served up some genocide.
How is, not voting useful? You've given up. Nothing more useless than that and the main reason progressives will never be empowered to make necessary change.
That’s because of the good old boys club making sure the ICC doesn’t start grabbing “western” leaders. Not because of genocide. Make no mistake that they place themselves above any one country’s actions.
Oh? So its dependent geographical location when it’s ok to hold leaders accountable to the genocide and war crimes they cause. Got ya. Putin being a war criminal, Cheers for the ICC. But now a US ‘ally’ is getting called out for credible accounts of warcrimes and provable mens rea for genocide? Well time to threaten the ICC with crushing sanctions from the fore most super power.
Maybe they are not interested in all western leaders, just the ones who war crime? Or defend war crime?
No, it’s dependent on being a powerful and wealthy nation that uses their flex to ensure they can continue to get away with what why want. If your part of that club you began invade all kids of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and whoever else and nobody can actually do anything about it. However, if you’re the leader of some tiny country on the losing end of doing dirty deeds, you get a bomb in your lap or hauled off to some prison, like Noriega.
This isn’t rocket science, “western” refers to a geopolitical standing, and even if Russia doesn’t fit the “western” bill, they nonetheless fall under the “too powerful to fuck with” category.
What “democrats”? Even Biden is softballing the issue even if he isn’t outright condemning it (as he should, the bastard should call it genocide). I’ve never seen any Dems here or on Reddit saying it isn’t a genocide. If you’re referring to the few at the top that refuse to call a spade a spade, yeah…that’s plural “democrats”, but overall nobody is defending “genocide”, but some fools are mealy-mouthing the ridiculous overreaction by Israel.
Just because people criticize Biden does not mean they are a follower of the MAGA cult.
Biden can do so much better then this. People want a reason to support him.
Instead we are being blamed for Biden's failures, because Biden chooses not to listen. While every time we try to change course we are being told we are anti-democratic. That we are trying to get Trump elected.
Like the average voter has more power then the president.
At this point, I am on no-body's side, because no one is anti-genocide.
I'm Asian and every time I criticize biden the comment is down voted. Sometimes they also call me Trump supporter. It's honestly sad looking at the state of Americans.
Of course, according to you, the voters only know what the STATE tells them to think, so I entirely understand your position that the voters' support of genocide actually does not in any way reflect the voters' support of genocide.
What is the point when liberals accept genocide. My dude at least if Trump was doing it more people would be mobilizing against it. What is honestly better in this situation?
Yeah but, option a) someone who supports genocide but wants to make your life more difficult or option b) someone who supports genocide but what’s to try and make your life better?
Yeah but, option a) someone who supports genocide but wants to make your life more difficult or option b) someone who supports genocide but what’s to try and make your life better?
"Why are people struggling with this choice?!"
edit to change the strikeout to bold to make it look less like i was being reductive
If they both believe the same thing on one topic, then you can cancel that topic out and only look at the other policies…it’s really not that difficult of a concept to get. Obviously, no genocide would be great, but if that literally isn’t an option, then just vote for the one that isn’t also actively trying to screw you’re over personally.
Look I’m not American so I don’t really have a horse in this race. But it seems to me, unless you have a revolution and burn the entire system to the ground and build it back up, it makes 0 sense to “boycott” the democrats because then you will just end up with right wing genocide instead of centerist genocide. (If you can even say democrats are Center, where I’m from they are still right wing!)
Of course not. But allowing their political rival (who also supports the thing you want to protest against) to win because you get apathetic and don’t vote is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of.
I'm not advocating people decide not to vote, i'm defending the apathy most voters feel because democrats have given them ample reason to feel apathetic.
If banging the drum of genocidal complicity is me acting against my selfish desire to end the genocide, then I think banging the drum of 'vote for biden or else' is also acting against our collective desire to end the genocide.
In my opinion, we should all be banging the same 'stop the genocide' drum so that in November everyone can feel better about voting instead of having to do genocide math to figure out what to do.
Dems like to point that this is the most important election ever. We can't even vote our way out of a genocide and you're questioning the apathy toward voter engagement. I'm looking around and seeing a vastly different political landscape than you and wondering what you are looking at.
If they both believe the same thing on one topic, then you can cancel that topic out and only look at the other policies
This isn't a math equation, it's a negotiation between human beings. You're saying that opposition to genocide is off the table because neither politician is offering it. But what happens if a sufficiently high number of voters say that genocide is off the table? In the short term, yes, it may mean a worse candidate wins. But if your goal is to stop genocide then it's necessary to create that impasse and maintain it until the other side caves. The fact is that we have something they apparently want, and there's no reason to hand over our votes if they open with the complete non-starter of supporting genocide.
You can either try to nudge it towards the better asshole or you can whine about it or whatever
for a second I thought you had it, but then you landed on the wrong note.
I was looking for 'you can try to nudge them toward the better policy', but people here are either so black pilled that they don't see a point in trying or they believe that democrats doing the right thing (even just not doing the evil thing) will certainly cost them an election. I think the latter perspective is the most black-pilling opinion i've ever seen, and possibly the best argument i've ever seen against liberal democracies at all.
I appreciate the acknowledgement, but i'm of the opinion that politicians don't respond to cold calls and emails, but do respond to relentless bad press.
But so long as I can do both at the same time, i will continue doing so.
A thought just occurred to me that I could send the memes directly to their offices...
You're talking too much sense for most ML to tolerate. And far too many elsewhere as well.
We have to work within the systems that exist. Not the systems we wished existed. And if that wasn't bad enough, so many refuse to engage with the system at all. Seeking only to accelerate it's destruction regardless of those that will be killed. All the while pretending to be pious and claiming they wish to stop the killing.
There are no easy choices in life. I'm no Democrat. But I know everyone's lives will effectively be worse with Republicans in control.
I can't beg my children to eat healthier while continually buying them chips amd candy.
Politicians lie, yes? It is universally agreed upon that Politicians lie as far as I am aware. So why is it that libs can't get it through their thick skulls that when Biden says he wants a ceasefire but month after month sends BILLIONS OF DOLLARS in weapons contracts, that he is completely full of shit when he says he wants a ceasefire?
Congress approved sending the weapons. It's literally illegal for Biden not to send them. They wouldn't even allow him not to send one type of bomb that would be especially catastrophic to civilians.
Congress passed the Leahy law, which prevents weapons shipments to regimes that violate human rights.
The only thing the Biden state dept has to do is acknowledge Israel's war crimes in a formal report. But they have been bending over backwards to delay and water down the report.
Biden could legally stop these genocidal resupplies today if he wanted to .
It's way more complicated than Biden just saying so. It takes intensive investigation and can only be used for very specific reasons: torture, extrajudicial killing, enforced disappearance, and rape under color of law.
Not that I am aware. The only one that might have happened is torture but that depends on whether the legal definition includes thing like waterboarding, sleep deprivation, or other things we like to call "enhanced interrogation".
Yes that intensive investigation has occurred, the report was released on May 10. It stopped just short of admitting gross violations of human rights in Gaza.
This political document, submitted by the Biden administration's state department, laughably suggests that there is no evidence of intentional wrongdoing, nor did Israel arbitrarily obstruct humanitarian aid into Gaza.
I think the only way you can read this report and find it credible is if you are already filled with Zionist propaganda.
I listed the four reasons above by which arms can be withheld. Violations of human rights and obstructing aid are not on that list, like it or not. I find it highly more likely that if there was any wrongdoing, it was Israel concealing the truth from US investigators, not bad faith of the US government. Biden was literally one of the drafters of United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. I don't see him standing by and letting that happen if he can help it.
And yet he has come out strongly against the student protests with classic talking points like "law and order". Stop making excuses for the bag of bones and own up to his positions if your going to support him.
I own up to his real position. I won't own up to fake positions he never held. He sent offensive weapons to Israel after it was apparent this has gone far beyond simple defense from terrorists. If I had my choice I would have only sent humanitarian aid and defensive weapons like resupplies for the iron dome. I also suppose acknowledging Palestine while at the same time recognizing that Hamas is a dangerous group which leads the country and needs to be overthrown. The only way Israel will ever get Hamas out of Palestine is by supporting the Palestinian people who want to fight for control of their own country.
The far right in Israel has a lot to answer for. There is no doubt that the actions of Israel in Palestine created Hamas. I think it's too far of a jump to say this is intentionally creating a justification for genocide. It's also important to acknowledge that the government in both countries doesn't represent all of their people. There are genocidal assholes on both sides as well as those who want to coexist. I would prefer that Israel didn't exist at all because any religious or ethnically exclusive country is troubling to me, but the Nazis didn't leave us much choice.
The mere fact that Netanyahu wants Trump back in office should really give you a hint as to what's the worst option here. Also the idea that people would mobilize more if Trump was offices simply silly. If tens of thousands of dead women and children don't mobilize you nothing's going to mobilize you.
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn't - so it's worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn't be in power).
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I've learned anything about political discourse it's that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can't assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
"There's literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to" - A very serious pugjesus.
Trump being worse deosn't mean we can't criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren't even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it....
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
how you intend to reshape the entire political landscape of the United States
Unions and democratic socialism. Aka, the Sanders methodology - and, aka, the way we got the New Deal
The alternative is either doing nothing and allowing conditions to continue to deteriorate, or supporting an armed revolution that will be instantly massacred by the most powerful military in human history. Neither are plausible options in the face of oligarchy
You seem to be unfamiliar with the mass labor movements and socialist movements that were present in the late 20s and 30s. FDR and his social democrats were the compromise candidates.
You speak against voting
Actually I didn't. Because, as I've now said for the 3rd time in this thread, I've voted for dems in every election I've ever been eligible to vote in.
Actually I didn’t. Because, as I’ve now said for the 3rd time in this thread, I’ve voted for dems in every election I’ve ever been eligible to vote in.
I don't who you sent those messages to, but it wasn't me.
If you can't keep your arguments straight, it's time to stop playing keyboard warrior. Go out and touch the grass.
I didn't say I told you. I said I've said it twice previously here.
You're not good at trolling btw. When you overuse personal attacks they lose their punch, and your target immediately starts to detach from the convo and see you as a cartoon, rather than see you as something that causes agitation
You'd be better off sticking to the actual substance of the disagreement for longer before you start attacking the other person and lying about the conversation. If you do that too early in then the other person will just lose interest and forget about you
Making obviously false statements is also not effective trolling. And maintaining obvious burner/multiple accounts is also not effective. You're better off when the target can't easily see through what you're doing. Which means a site with more users such as Twitter or reddit may be an easier choice for a beginner than lemmy which has fewer users - with fewer users it's easier to spot users with multiple simultaneous accounts
Before I block you for harassment, I’d like to point out how the mod logs are full of your posts being removed for trolling and uncivil name calling.
You even used autism as an insult. That’s disgusting.
Also, trolling someone by repeatedly pretending that you can’t understand what they are saying to you doesn’t come off as cute as you think it does. Especially when everyone can see that they were very clear with what they said.
You distract from the topic to bait people. It shows in your comment history. And it shows in the mod log. This person has debated you in good faith. You are trolling them.
Incorrect, observing that someone is behaving antisocially in a manner that is highly consistent with a particular type of neurodivergence is not an insult - especially on a site with a drastically disproportionate amount of autistic users such as Lemmy
It's pretty clear that you're trolling, actually. And that you have multiple accounts. And it's clear that you're not good at trolling and are insecure about it and are floundering now for some reason.
Interesting that you took particular offense to the autism remark. I wonder what that says about you and your ability to understand social cues and relate to people? We already know your written communication skills are poor - seems like the reason for that might have a neurological cause with severe social repercussions for your life. That's too bad.
You don't need to be insecure about being autistic. I'm sorry that you feel that way and are lashing out as a result
I do have access, as I have seen your removed comments. You even admitted to having accused someone of being autistic, (which was a removed comment) just as you are accusing me now of the same thing.
How would I know you did this? How could I have pointed this out- before you admitted to it… if I didn’t see this in the mod logs?
Not very clever man.
Could it be that I actually do have an alt account that has access to the logs because I am mod elsewhere? It’s not a crime to have multiple accounts on lemmy. Especially when one is a moderator.
This entire discussion is off the tracks because of you. That makes you the troll. They were arguing in good faith and you derailed the topic to hypocritically accuse them of trolling.
I’m simply pointing that out.
Also, people are now warning one another about you. I’m sure you’ll see this as a badge of honor- but it isn’t.
I do have access, as I have seen your removed comments
Yeah and my uncle is the CEO of Lemmy
even admitted to having accused someone of being autistic
Yeah because that's in a public comment that wasn't deleted by a power tripping mod
How would I know you did this if thing you admit you did- if I didn’t see this in the mod logs?
This is what I'm talking about when I say that you have poor written communication skills.
Could it be that I actually do have an alt account that has access to the logs because I am mod elsewhere? It’s not a crime to have multiple accounts on lemmy. Especially when one is a moderator.
So you now claim to have multiple accounts which you use, at least partially, to troll. And that you use your mod account (if it even exists) to facilitate your trolling by giving you access to additional information which you then use to harass your victims. Is that consistent with the site Terms of Service? I doubt it.
This entire discussion is off the tracks because of you. That makes you the troll
No, the entire discussion is off the rails because you have been using your multiple accounts to troll anyone who disagrees with you, and then have decided to cry victim when anyone stands up for themselves. The original point was that you don't understand politics. You've now made it clear that your misunderstanding of politics comes from your deeper issue of not understanding human socialization and effective communication. It's unfortunate that you have such a deficit. However, that isn't anyone else's fault, and it seems immoral of you to take it out on others.
Also, people are now warning one another about you. I’m sure you’ll see this as a badge of honor- but it isn’t.
As I said before, if you're going to lie, at least make it believeable. And, separately, messaging your one troll account from your other troll account does not mean that anyone is warning anyone.
Furthermore, you should see the messages I've received about you. If you are actually a mod then I doubt that will last for much longer
And so you know, one doesn’t need to be a mod to see the mod logs. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about here. I only need to be a mod to see them from the lemmy app I use. ANYONE can see the mod logs.
Which means, ANYONE can see your blatant lies about your comment history.
And I already admitted I have alt accounts. One of them is a mod account for two different communities. That doesn’t make one a troll. But your accusations of trolling from alts comes off as next-level IMAX projection if you ask me. It That’s just my observation. Not an accusation at all.
You and me both. Reddit literally browser finger printed my device and banned me in 2023 because I wouldn't stop raising the flag on Biden. Now here we are and I want to do the whole told you so shit but I know more is at stake here than any other election I've lived through.
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
Citation? Really? Most of social media is backed up. Go ahead and see how much the SJW’s were caring about Palestine in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023.
You do know they have been in conflict since 1948, right? You all act like this shit is new. And it shows in the fact that NONE of you gave a shit about it until now.
I voted for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2020. I was arrested at a Trump protest and shot by a wooden bullet at a George Floyd protest. I've volunteered in local political initiatives to make our local government more progressive and more accountable to voters.
You know nothing about me, so you just make up things that you think discredits me? What have you done other than punch left on Lemmy?
There is nothing left about 2014 tumblr and its consequences. That was not a socialist or working class zeitgeist. And very likely was largely astroturfed by ruling class propagandists
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn't give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I'm fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world
Everyone agrees with this
Which is why Biden should immediately pivot on this issue and save the United States from fascism
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he's out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these "leaders" are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I'll like it even less than I did last time, though.
Might I add, you will also undercut the concerted effort to supress DNC turn out. Just like every other election remember the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
the ground rules; be cagey; be indirect; accuse people of moral failings; and never ever compromise or adjust your position.
Yes those are the rules of being a politician (gotem)
Why is it always the risk is suppressing VOTER behavior, and never a risk of intentionally suppressing the politician's genocidal desire? If it's a covert strategy to suppress voter turnout to raise the expectations of the voters, how does any protest ever effect change?
Me more than anyone. To this day I can't create a reddit account. I just know, come November I want another shot of changing things peacefully. Do understand the power of the US military. Stopping Christo-fascism depends on stopping Trump from grabbing the wheel. If the DNC did their own Jan 6 before Trump was inaugurated I'd applauding it because I know, that was our last chance.
Buddy, our country is not so great on the world stage. You honestly think we can sink lower?
We've been down this road so many times and it's always a kick in the pants when we get hung up on it again and again. To properly take a moral stance you need to gain momentum before the primaries. Biden has not been shy about his stance on Isreal and bibi has been chasing this car like a dog on crack.
Oh, I'm talking about the world stage too. The US remains popular in much of Subsaharan Africa and East Asia (minus China and NK, natch), and moderately popular in Asia outside of MENA, with mixed views in Latin America. Our popularity dropped in all but three countries during Trump's term, if memory serves - Pakistan, Israel, and Russia.
We're more popular in most of those countries than most European countries are - a lot of bad blood in colonialism there.
Western Euro countries approval of the US tend to vary wildly according to recent events, while Eastern Europe outside of the Russian sphere tends to approve highly of the US despite a significant gap on social issues.
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it's legitimate is because it's true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it's far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn't a strategy to keep Trump out, it's denial
Their point is that Israel is committing genocide and Biden is abetting that genocide while also engaging in genocide denial.
Which is political suicide for the Democrats. He has seriously miscalculated this issue and needs to recalibrate immediately. There is no other option.
Why indeed, when you are trying so hard to get Trump elected so he can do SO much worse. Your disingenuous bad faith nonsense isn’t lost on many people here.
You certainly are busy responding to my every comment today. Enjoying my comment history?
And
A fact of living in a liberal democrat is that citizens absolutely DO have that right.
And other citizens have the right to call out the bad faith propagandists that aren’t here to criticize the government, but only to criticize ONE government official.
You see, we all are very aware of the silence from the “far left” propagandists that pretend to be here in good faith when it comes to criticism of the right and the factually proven worse treatment Palestine will receive under Trump.
Legitimately have no idea what this message is intended to communicate because it is poorly written.
However, I did not notice I replied to the same commenter more than once. I was only replying to people I thought were exceptionally irrational.
Your comments btw read like ideal versions of what the GOP would promulgate to dissuade voters from supporting Biden. So if you're a shill, then good job; if you aren't, then your communication skills are poor and you should try to be persuasive and likeable - both online and in real life
A right wing shill accusing me of being a shill. That’s rich. And I’m not here to be liked by people like you. Just to call them out for the ridiculous concept that not doing something will bring change- when not once in history has this ever been proven to work.
But keep up with the propaganda- it seems some people still believe you.
Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There's plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they're capable of prosecuting US citizens.
Shhh! People haven't been terminally online about Israel/Palestine for the past several years juy to admit, in this moment, that their own country commits larger atrocities every day. What do you expect them to do, admit that their own country was founded on settler colonialism and that their continued participation amounts to what Zionism is: a belief that the settlements you live on are legitimate and should be protected?
This is such a weird gotcha, because I don't know a single person who denounces the Israel's genocidal behavior who isn't also denouncing America's genocidal behavior. Like, yeah, killing innocent people is bad; let's keep this bandwagon going and overthrow all genocidal governments, please!
America's been around a lot longer than the beginning of the Iraq war. We nearly eradicated the Native Americans to gain their land, we've placed illegitimate governments in Honduras and Guatemala, nearly eradicating the Mayan population for the sake of our own economic exploitation of the area, and so on. And honestly, most people backed the Iraq war specifically because they hated middle eastern people, so I don't think calling it a genocide would be much of a stretch; if the area's population were small enough to easily suppress the way the Mayans were, we'd have probably just focused on that strategy again in order to secure the cheap oil we were after.
My comment was in response to a comment about American colonialism and the genocide that came along with it, which is why I addressed it. Topics often change throughout the course of a conversation, and the same can happen in a comment thread.
and what happened? oh yeah actual leftist rabble roused and protested the Iraq war, whereas centrist Dems were lockstep with Republicans to invade over lies.
Great example, it really shows how little Dems have cared about leftists for decades.
I guess you are right. Maybe I should be in favor of war and genocide then because it's always working.
Thank you kind stranger, I will stop protesting now.
So… knowing that some protests in the past have been pointless is the key to supporting genocide now?
You seem to like going WAY out of your way to maintain ignorance, don’t you? Instead of accepting that your point was dismissed, you opted to throw a hissy fit and cut off your own nose in a bad faith attempt to make another point.
Christianity actually changed some things in world history. Like more than a few.
So a temporary loss by the righteous can eventually lead to a permanent victory. Which was very clearly my point. And is the point of the Bible - and is also the point of the religious history of the West
So… your argument is to compare your incessant whining and selfish refusal to do what is necessarily to protect the lives and rights of others to….. checks notes
…..Christians?
Yeah. That tracks. You can have that argument. That definitely sums up both camps pretty well.
Riiiight. Well that’s new. I’ve never seen anyone “pretend to not understand written language” to get out a conversation before, but here we are moving new ground.
I suppose you’re not going to point out which part you’re having trouble understanding, are you?
"So… your argument is to compare your incessant whining and selfish refusal to do what is necessarily to protect the lives and rights of others to….. checks notes
…..Christians?
Yeah. That tracks. You can have that argument. That definitely sums up both camps pretty well."
I don't know what this means
I know that it's a likely ToS violation for personal attacks and incivility. But aside from that, I don't understand what argument is intended to be conveyed
Ahh… pretending to be the victim of abuse. Such a familiar tactic. However- this isn’t a personal attack unless you are saying that you are someone that incessantly whines and refuses to do what right to protect the lives of others.
I never once said a single thing about you personally.
And I see from your comment history that you do this a lot to others. You seem to play victim to others words, while simultaneously goading them into arguing with you.
I’m going to go ahead and block you from my feed so you can bait me into being banned.
Good luck with… whatever it’s called that you’re doing here.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don't. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn't he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn't identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too... which he isn't doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to "work within the (existing) system", set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don't know. I truly don't know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn't nothing!
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he's the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to "work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords"... We want someone who's going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
Can he though? Well anyway, he definitely could do more, no question about that.
What bothers me is this entitled thinking, like "we deserve better candidates" - okay, yeah, obviously, but we won't get those until we make them. AOC, Bernie, there actually are several who are good, but apparently for some (whatever) reason they aren't "viable"? Hence why Biden is there, instead of one of them.
(And you even ran - damn that's impressive! To be absolutely clear, I am not calling you one of these "entitled thinkers", b/c you actually stood up and tried to DO SOMETHING about it, first-hand - kudos!)
Biden offers the good that can be done, rather than what should be - to use the Batman phrase, the politician that America needs, rather than the one it deserves... or whatever?
There is also that phrase, attributed to Otto von Bismarck, that "Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best." Put another way, the whole thing is a matter of pragmatism, instead of idealism.
And in every other situation, Biden has been the pragmatist. Gas prices, unionization of railway workers, inflation, etc. So I wondered if he's doing something similar here too, even if it looks like 10-D chess to us, and based on his other past successes (that the media refuses to highlight, b/c they are "boring"), I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But my knowledge on this matter, especially lately, is shaky, so I could definitely be wrong there - perhaps this issue truly is the dividing line. I need to stop talking about that until I read up on the matter some more.
Though one thing that won't ever change is that in the next upcoming election, we still only get the two choices though - Biden vs. Trump:-(. It's like: imagine a robber steals your wallet, and offers you either the cash or your ID cards back (apparently the credit cards aren't on the table for negotiation), but what they want in return is for you to say "please" - what do you do? Take one, or the other, or just walk away and leave both behind? Fighting the US government does not seem an effective option. We can cry about it, maybe go away and train for decades (as Batman did:-P) with the thought of perhaps getting revenge, but in that moment, our choices are limited. As I understand it, that is pragmatism.
Unfortunately when faced with genocidal fascism, pragmatism looks an awful lot like appeasement... And after 40 years of appeasing the oligarchy while they slowly take away our rights, health, and wealth, I think people are almost ready to fight. Maybe not physically... But in any way they can.
Which brings us to the fact that there are 3 choices in the upcoming election... Trump, Biden, stay home (or 3rd party, but that's basically the same as staying home unfortunately)... If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they'd be figuring out what it takes and doing it... Instead they're just following their already shown to fail bullying strategy... It's really irritating to see them seemingly willfully losing to Trump rather than go against their corporate masters... Again
The reason Trump is so popular is because he's a protest vote. At least in the delusional minds of the maga crowd. He is certainly not a part of the oligarchy controlling the establishment... He's his own oligarchy, and a dangerous one too... But his followers are very dumb and very brainwashed. All they see is that he's a way to fight against the establishment. The Dems needed to put up a protest candidate of their own. Utterly reject the establishment/oligarchy, and embrace the protest... Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Not in a useful way though. Conservatives fought, and therefore won the overturning of Roe v. Wade - they put in decades of effort to achieve that, and therefore did. They stood in solidarity, prior to Trump, and now the whole party is sliding QUICKLY and EXTREMELY Right-wards, to once again stand in solidarity at that new point.
In contrast, liberals tend to eat their own - case in point, look at what we all are doing to Biden right now (me too just to a lesser degree than some others).
And I am not even saying that is "wrong" - that is simply the nature of the game when talking about "correctness". e.g., 1 + 1 = 2, but 1.9 and 2.1 don't "quite" cut it, nor even 1.99 or 2.01, despite being so very, very close. Or let's use an even more hyperbolic example to illustrate: suppose I ask a liberal what the answer is to the question of "what is 1+1?", and the Democrats step in to say that "the answer is +1,000" (while ofc pocketing the other $998.00, b/c of corruption). That's way off... but the answer that conservatives give is to kill your dog and fuck your mom, and then risk her life too b/c she's not allowed to have an abortion even despite the rape (and then the Republicans pocket not only $998.00 but $1,999,999.00, just b/c they can). So which is "better"? Are there alternatives? Is the answer given by the Democrats more "correct", despite being so very, VERY wrong? TLDR on this point: they are both wrong, but not equally so.
If Dems and Biden really wanted to get people off the couch and in to vote they’d be figuring out what it takes and doing it…
Yup.
Instead they once again doubled down on the most establishment candidate they could find.
Yup.
The rich people - like HRC - are so disconnected from modern life, that they cannot conceive of what it is like to be a Millennial or a Gen-Z person, who looks forward to not just "intern first, then real job", but "intern forever, b/c that's just all there is these days, stable job=never, ability to own a home=never (or is it never? either way it certainly looks that way now and shows no signs of improving... literally ever, plus Social Security + Medicare are drying up and with that money have been already stolen from us, will literally never, ever, EVER be returned...)". And HRC's response to ALL of that was, in short: "Life is good, let's keep it that way, shall we?:-P PokeMon-go-to-the-polls, woot (please believe that I'm just like you - one of the [insert your predefined categorization here] - and btw did you know I carry hot sauce in my purse at all times?)".
On the other hand, the Gaza situation is just the icing on the cake: regardless of the actual genocide going on there, it won't fix our economy. The latter involves terribly boring steps, many of which Biden seems to be taking? But the media won't report them, and I wouldn't understand them myself anyway so... we are back to the "Just trust me bro - I got this! (also I'm totally not a senile old man-puppet propped up on crack to give speeches while the real work is done behind-the-scenes, which we cannot talk about for uh... reasons, but it'll be good, this time, I promise, just vote for me and you'll see what we have planned later!)"
Also, are we even arguing anymore? :-P I think we agree on pretty much everything. Oh I remember, there's one more detail got us started: the difference between what I am saying vs. you is that we are not being offered a primary with which to pick a different approach. So when you say things like "The Dems needed to..." and "If Dems and Biden really wanted to..." and "Instead they’re just... It’s really irritating to", my question is: now what? So you don't like it - I don't either - but what are we going to do about it? Yeah, that's what I thought - I have no clue either.:-( But I've been wrong before - e.g. I thought no way would Trump win - so now I am just trying to strain my eyes open as wide as I can make them, to learn from whatever happens.
Sadly the Republican's "grassroots" orgs get tons of funding from the oligarchy, while any grassroots orgs on the left get none... Without funding I don't know that there's much we can do. Personally I worked my ass off in progressive politics for a few years after Bernie, but unfortunately eventually had to move on to something that can actually pay. Now I've moved as far away from the South as I could, bought a gun and ammo, and a couple weeks worth of emergency food. I don't see any way out of this without it getting really bad. End stage capitalism is rough.
Besides the fact that each new generation is more progressive than the last one, honestly my only hope is that as AI starts taking their jobs, and the oligarchy keeps squeezing more and more out of an ever shrinking upper middle class, that eventually they'll start joining us and voting progressive. Like right now 50%ish of people own nothing... What about when they've squeezed every drop out of 75%? 90%? At what point do the people in their golden bubbles start realizing they've been getting screwed all along too? Hopefully it's before millions die in the streets.
I too walked away from not one but two cushy jobs, to try to become "part of the solution". There are a lot of us who care, truly & deeply, and as you said willing to FIGHT! Sadly, I quickly discovered that I was a classic bleeding-heart liberal with more compassion than brains. I don't know about you, but I at least was not a good leader, b/c while I meant well, I was going about things in an extremely naive manner. As most people do ofc, so I am not special in that regard at all. Though it did finally cause me to wake up and realize: the reason that we cannot save the world is that it does not WANT to be saved.
People are too comfortable, but then when things get bad, they don't suddenly turn their lives around and become everything that they previously were not!? I have heard SO MANY stories of people whose mother, father, sister, brother, and literally all immediate family members plus many slightly beyond that died of covid, but the survivors still went to Trump rallies and hoped that he would save them. "Facts" were never what convinced these people to follow him, so still more facts that ran in contradiction to what they could plainly see with their very own eyes, and had a HUGE effect upon their lives, were not going to convince them to switch.
And now I've moved back to a large city environ - where sth like >90% of the people will vote Democrat, so my vote doesn't count one bit, but despite knowing that, I am prioritizing myself right now, over the planet. Maybe after I pull myself together I will try again, though who wants to live in an area where doctors try their hardest to avoid? Anyway, I've lost all faith in democracy - "we" are not smart enough to lead ourselves, and therefore I am not even entirely certain that I am against oligarchy, communism, feudalism, etc. If democracy is to survive, then it needs to... "survive", if you know what I mean? Like, disinformation is deadly to it, especially with such an uneducated populace as we have, so it either needs to adapt or else it will be discarded - no matter what we wish or hope for to the contrary.
Conservatives have "conviction" behind their beliefs - enough to make what they want come to pass at any rate - and while I am not advocating for conservative belief structures, I am saying that if it is to be opposed, then it must be met with equally strong convictions, on our side. Which especially with the majority population beliving this way, should be relatively "easy"...r-r-right? Except, even with a democratic majority, what got done? Wrt the Supreme Court, or gun control, or anything at all that you could name - what got done during that majority?!? Hence we lack convictions. Hence, unless that changes, we will continue to lose, every time.
Which is why, as you pointed out, there is actually hope on the way. As people continue to get worse off, maybe they'll wake up? e.g. form unions. There was no hope until they were ready - b/c you can lead a horse to water but cannot force it to drink - but if they get ready then...?
I have no gun. If bad stuff happens, I will simply die. I don't mind - there are far worse things:-D.
Millions will die. Possibly billions - not in the USA but I mean as a result of climate change, which is moving much faster than hoped. As usual, and like every movie ever, scientists were very gentle with their conservative estimations and only now are we getting higher precision bounds to realize that we aren't all going to make it.
Oh right, also, millions have died already - more than all wars combined - as a result of the pandemic, though this had to be inferred from the "excess death" statistics since we refused to officially count them, and some states did everything possible to mislead and deflect the numbers (even the "liberal" NYC iirc due to the senior home incidents). As Trump proved over & over again, he was for rioting in the streets, but I have to hand it to Biden, b/c whether for good or ill in the long-run, he did manage to calm things down considerably, in offering hope (false? we'll see I suppose).
Unfortunately the only real convictions the Dems seem to have is "protect the rich at all costs"... They have some social issues stuff quite a ways behind that, but clearly they're willing to let it slide rather than fight (ie roe v Wade)... They would definitely rather lose to Republicans, who at least have that same 'protect the rich' conviction, than lose to progressives who would "eat" the rich instead... Even though they agree with progressives on the social issues
We've been dancing around it but I want to say explicitly: politicians are not "the same" as the people that they represent.
Conservatives for instance vote against and by and large act as if they believe that climate change is not happening, however Republican politicians - at the high end, i.e. federal even if not all the way down to every local area - know that it is happening, and it is merely a farce when they say that it is not. "Climate change is not happening" is their way of saying "well of course it's happening, but we choose to protect ThE eCoNoMy first and foremost".
Note that it is no accident that old retirees subsist nowadays on the tiny trickle from the stock market that keeps them going - so you can't regulate the stock market b/c "won't someone think of the old folks - what will happen to them!?", despite how they may get a fraction of 1% while billion- and now trillionaires take the rest. It's like the rich use the elderly as a necromancer uses zombies - in a manner called "meat shield" in gaming terminology; but it happens irl too, e.g. Hamas hid behind school-children in an identical fashion. Anyway, in return, the elderly vote to keep tHe EcOnoMy first and foremost in their minds, thus sacrificing their children to become slaves, while taking care of themselves first & foremost.
And in like manner, Democrats != liberals, with a few notable exceptions like Bernie Sanders and AOC, who ofc will never be allowed to become President or gain positions of real authority and power over the ones who hold true power.
The principle itself is not even a bad thing necessarily - ideally, leaders should be MORE responsible than the average citizen that they represent, not less. But since we have so many people working from behind the scenes manipulating things unseen, politicians are not our "leaders" these days, not truly, and instead have made themselves useful puppets that dance at the behest of their masters. Btw, this happens in literally every group that has ever existed, not even limited to human social ones, e.g. it happens in single-celled bacteria and even single-molecule proteins called prions such as those that cause mad cow disease, and probably photons (bundles of pure energy that don't even have subatomic particles and thus have zero mass) do it too I dunno, I'm just saying that it's a natural law of the universe, at all scales.
An extremely insightful video that I cannot recommend highly enough is the CGP Grey Rules for Rulers - that channel has excellent other resources too like a fantastic explanation of ranked-choice voting. Ngl, that video messed me up - I used to really want to change things, then I watched it and realize how difficult that task is to make happen. Now I am much less outspoken than I used to be, b/c I have sent myself back to school, while questioning everything that I once believed. We cannot fight the very laws of the UNIVERSE!! Which doesn't mean that liberalism has no chance, but it does significantly narrow the scope of solutions that might actually be viable enough to work.
Which is what gives me pause to lash out with instant hate against Biden's efforts to improve things. Maybe he's worthy of that, or maybe not, but I would need to understand what he's doing first, before I want to judge him. I spent years breaking down Trump's motivations btw, so I get what he's trying to do, but I have not done that for Biden. It's exhausting:-(. I wish there were people I could trust that I could just follow, but who would that be - Bernie Sanders? He is an idealist, and while that works for his seat from Maine, it would not work on the global scale, with him as the Commander in Chief. As Obama said about him, he is a prophet in the wilderness, not a king who can make the hard choices.
Anyway the forces involved are just so incredibly complex - what has worked since American's founding seems unlikely to work in the future, as the implications of globalization and automation settle in. e.g. the likes of Jeff Bezos and the Military-Industrial Complex use the American government in both an offensive capacity to increase their own profits abroad, while simultaneously as an aforementioned meat-shield to hide behind it whenever they feel scared that some other trillionaire such as Putin might come for their wealth. And keep in mind, We The People were okay with that, b/c it helped us too to have things like Google, Amazon, and weapons that we could use to defend ourselves & our allies, and offensively destroy our enemies or threaten them to not attacking in the first place, or regardless of military entirely we could also bully them in economic matters. Just like how people in Florida are okay with their leaders antics b/c it works for them, so too the American people are okay with the antics of our own leaders - or at least we were until about the late 70s. And now, we talk as if we are not okay with them, but we act as if we are, more or less.
So Rules for Rulers - check it out, and I hope that it messes you up as much as it did me, b/c that's how you know it is working:-D. As for where to go forward from here... I don't know, but even so I consider my new position to be a lot better than my previous one where I thought I knew but didn't. To be clear, that is not me even attempting to hint at implying that liberalism is incorrect, but rather me saying that if we can't make it happen in the real world, then of what use is it to be "correct"? Before we can move forward, we need to find a viable path first. Like standing at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, wanting to go westward - it's not impossible, but it is going to be rough going, and we might not all make it, and either way we need to be prepared for whatever lies ahead.
So typically liberal=neo-liberal=establishment Dems... Progressives=Bernie and the squad... Just semantics
I've seen that video before... Love everything he does... I wonder how AI and robots taking over all human labor over the next 20 years will effect this model. I guess it's sort of like discovering a resource that dwarfs the production capabilities of the people. So all the democracies slip into dictatorships? Maybe that's what we're seeing the prelude to?
I tend to avoid the word "progressive", b/c - I kid you not - George W. Bush was one.
Progressivism is a political philosophy and movement that seeks to advance the human condition through social reform – primarily based on purported advancements in social organization, science, and technology.
Like, maybe someone doesn't have to be "good" at it in order to be called one? Also, Biden did one of the largest infrastructure bills that we've seen in modern times - would that make him quality? (perhaps not a "social progressive" but a different kind?) I admit, I am very likely over-thinking this and should just use the word:-P.
But anyway, yeah, HRC was pro-war, pro-big business, the rather extensive list goes on, so a perfect example of a Democrat who was decidedly not progressive. And you get what I am saying underneath it all: what the politicians offer does not always perfectly match the desires of their constituents - e.g. neoliberalism.
Yeah, the likes of Bezos have been harping on replacing their human workforce for years, they actually feel like technology is BEHIND in that aspect, b/c they wish they could ditch the meat-bags ASAP (who do things like die when the temperature rises above a certain threshold for a sustained length of time). So while governments with octogenarians don't even know it is happening, corporations look like they are preparing 3rd-world nations to receive their robot factories. Just like farming today, if all you need is 1-5 humans per huge production location, and especially if you can pay that person in housing & maybe food ("company scrip"), then by ensuring their loyalty in said manner you can maintain absolute control over your profits. Evolution can sometimes be about survival of the most ruthless? Especially when people refuse to work together to stop it.:-(
I guess I don't see how Bush fits that definition, but I guess it doesn't matter, I think we're close enough.
Personally, I wish we could hurry up and replace all human labor with computers and machines. People could still do work, they'll just be free to pursue work that they find satisfying instead of the bullshit work most people are doing now. We will of course have to have an economic revolution and force the rich to share the wealth created by the machines, otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people. I'm a strong proponent of UBI tied to inflation and set at a thriving level by "district"... However we want to define district.
otherwise everyone dies in the streets except a few thousand rich people
Which is probably why the revolution would be allowed in the first place. They have their own islands or stay perpetually in the air - they can afford to wait it out.
Yeah...I think they'll push for a faux revolution, designed to cull the herd more than actually change power structures... Our only hope is for people to realize they need to fight the rich and not each other... So I don't have high hopes
Yes... I bet if they'd put up someone who's actually on the left, it would be a different story. Like, I don't love everything about Bernie (because he's not as "left"as I'd like), but I would have gladly voted for him against Trump. Millions of young people would have gotten excited to go vote for him too.
Every election the Dems fight tooth and nail to stop actual progressives from being allowed into the general. They put up their centrists instead. So of course they aren't "left" enough.
Let's just get this clear: Most everyone "defending" genocide aren't happy what's happening. If the world was perfect and always going the way we wanted, this would never be. We don't vote Biden, even if we celebrate the (all too uncommen) victories. We vote Blue, for hope.
Are they angry cause you're bashing Biden, or is it because they have to keep telling and reminding people how bad it can be and was with the alternative to Biden. They're stuck defending a man they really don't want to, because they know how bad the alternative is.
This election is literally the definition of voting for the lesser evil. Both, unfortunately, will continue genociding. Only one has said they want to be a dictator HERE though.
"Biden should stop supporting genocide" is bashing only if you don't want him to stop.
or is it because they have to keep telling and reminding people how bad it can be and was with the alternative to Biden
This is lemmy. Everyone fucking knows. Can't even gripe about the guy you voted for supporting genocide without someone feeling the need to centrist-splain how genocide is moral because it's their guy supporting it.
They’re stuck defending a man they really don’t want to,
All these Democrats who expend all their energy into convincing people to vote for their ghastly candidate, yet won't lift a finger to pressure him, the sitting president, to change course on supporting a genocide
When all you want is for Trump to win, but your only winning strategy in the playbook is what Reagan did to fuck over Carter back in 1980. Gotta drive those social media vibes and it worked once, right?
Aiding genocide really isn’t a good look. It’d be nice if the current administration didn’t. Also, threatening the ICC with sanctions reflects rather poorly.
I don't need to sleuth through Biden's emails to see he's in complete willful denial of Israel's genocide. Wait that's not fair, I suppose there's still a question about Israel's intent... Complete willful denial of Isreal's war crimes. That's been well established, right?
Idk, how much information is enough to make a determination on whether Israel is committing war crimes? Certainly not much more, if the ICC is already pursuing arrest warrants
Let’s take it as a given. You’re saying you know all the reasons the US administration has to still support Israel. Don’t even need to look.
You Do. Not. Know. I’m not saying I know, I’m not saying they’re good reasons. I’m saying it’s such a dense and complex political issue that people study it for their whole lives, entire consultancies exist to support it, and a server full of recent graduates who want to support trump saying they know it all are full of shit.
If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening
You understand it’s not a good idea to do that for some of the reasons right? What reasons might those be? Can you think of any?
Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region
“Address the suspicion”? To have a democratic western-friendly foothold in the heart of the oil countries? You need to hear that reason that is so public it’s a cliche? What other ‘imperial interests’ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? I’m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.
It's only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple
I think you know you’re reaching with this one but ok. Let’s use “1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nation's resources.” unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ‘neocolonialism’. Why do you think Israel is ‘less developed’? What resources is the US exploiting that isn’t the ‘democratic foothold in the middle east’?
An “imperialist end” huh boy that does sound bad, what end would that be? Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses? Probably not what you were going for - yours probably has the word genocide in it I bet.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution? Lemme save you the time complaining about it; you’ll say cut off all aid to Israel, I’ll point out Bibi has specifically promised that won’t stop him and then I’ll point out that russia would love to buy some more Israel and you’ll either love that idea or pretend it doesn’t matter or - hey maybe you have the answer, you’re the super genius person the world has been waiting for to solve this problem. But I doubt it.
And as far as some “Fake nuance to arguments”, I’m not saying that’s not a thing, I’m saying prove it. Gimme the simple version you’ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?
What other ‘imperial interests’ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? I’m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.
Idk, you kind of already nailed it with the oil. Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.
I think you know you’re reaching with this one but ok. Let’s use “1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nation’s resources.” unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ‘neocolonialism’. Why do you think Israel is ‘less developed’? What resources is the US exploiting that isn’t the ‘democratic foothold in the middle east’?
Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony. I didn't think that one needed to be explained. The resource is oil and trade routes, the foothold is the control over them.
Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses?
Even at my most angry, I don't think i've ever had this much contempt for another nation/people/continent. That is the wildest show of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy. But if you think the US has been an actor that is keeping the peace and not fomenting conflict in the middle east, then holy fuck I don't know what I could possibly tell you to convince you otherwise. I mean for fucks sake, the last three decades of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution?
Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.
Gimme the simple version you’ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?
If your only ideological concern is freedom and democracy, then there are no interests the US has in the middle east that come close to meeting them. It's as easy as "i oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they take".
Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.
Fair. Except Israel doesn't have oil. And they don’t dominate the nations that do. Your move.
Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony.
Israel is the colony huh. Interesting. How do we get oil and - ?? “trade routes” ? from “our colony”, Israel? And - just to put a fine point on it then, Israel is not a sovereign nation under your ‘definition’, right, it’s a US colony? Okay. You don’t think that’s - of course you don’t.
Even at my most angry, I don't think i've ever had this muchcontempt for another nation/people/continent.
What nation/people/continent? The middle east, so-called, has many. You’ve taken great offense on behalf of one of them - which one?
That is the wildestshow of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy.
Yeah cause you don’t hear yourself.
I mean for fucks sake, the last three decades of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.
Wouldn’t dream of it. I protested them all. And all of them - get this straight, because this is where you’re fucking up - ALL OF THEM were specifically republican led. Actual war criminals Bush & Cheney still wandering around out here not worried at all by your biden genocide wankery. You’re specifically calling to hurt the electability of the party that fought for you against all those wars and for the party that will 100% create more of them.
That you don’t see that is the most arrogant idiocy I’ve ever seen on lemmy plus infinity plus one!. Or- or did you want nuance. I dunno, kinda mixed signals there really.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution?
Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.
Yeah that’s fucking brilliant. And exactly what we expected you’d say. Are you familiar with nuclear weapons? You know North Korea or maybe Pakistan (or, hell - russia!) will sell you one pretty cheap. You hate Israel so much, badda-bing, problem solved it’s all a party now. You think that’s unlikely? Goddamn. How can you miss that. You think the Wahabbists are interested in maybe opening a dialogue? Yeah? Mr. Bone Saw’s gonna look over at newly-russia’d Israel and say hey buddy ol pals ain't it great the imperialist pig dogs are gone? Wanna play videogames and drink sodas together?
Do nothing. Well shit you are the super genius we’ve been missing. If only those warmongering (checks notes) Democrats would get out of power we could really get things done.
It's as easy as "i oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they take".
Absolutist positions are a trap. At best. At worst they create terrible outcomes. And you’ll have a 100% chance of losing this election. So - since your genius foreign policy is literally nothing, and since your klaxon teeth-grinding that biden “supports genocide” is only able to help trump, and since you have a 0% chance to help anyone - least of all the people you think you’re, i guess you think you’re helping? - why don’t you try a different way to “oppose colonial and imperialist activities”? Maybe aim a little lower to start? Win a local election, maybe?
