Trump attorney tells judges presidential immunity would even cover assassinating rivals, selling pardons ( themessenger.com )

US presidents cannot be prosecuted for selling pardons or assassinating political rivals through SEAL Team Six, personal Trump lawyer John Sauer argued Tuesday

Advancing a sweeping interpretation of executive immunity, Donald Trump’s attorney told a federal appeals court on Tuesday that U.S. presidents could not be prosecuted for selling pardons or assassinating political rivals through SEAL Team Six.

Trump’s lead attorney D. John Sauer argued that only a president who has been impeached and removed from office in a Senate trial potentially would be subject to prosecution for those kinds of alleged crimes.

A three-judge panel appeared extremely skeptical of Trump’s vision of absolute immunity, sharply questioning and interrupting Sauer during the opening minutes of the oral arguments with the former president himself sitting nearby.

“Could a president order SEAL Team Six to assassinate a political rival? That’s an official act–an order to Seal Team Six,” U.S. Circuit Judge Florence Pan asked Sauer.

“He would have to be, and would speedily be, you know, impeached and convicted before the criminal prosecution,” Sauer replied, setting a pre-condition for such prosecution in Pan’s hypothetical.

fubarx ,

If you take that argument to the logical extreme, a President who has committed all those bad acts can:

  • Stop all investigations of said bad acts, therefore avoiding impeachment.

  • Threaten any member of the House that is thinking of voting to impeach him.

  • On the off-chance is impeached and is now waiting the verdict of the Senate, have every incentive to offer all kinds of corrupt deals (free pardons, private arms deals, etc) to Senators to buy their vote. This way, they won't be convicted in the Senate and they can keep enjoying their infinite immunity forever.

Neat-o.

TechyDad ,
@TechyDad@lemmy.world avatar

Or just go one step further and have all Congressional members of the opposing party killed.

Biden would never do this and I don't want him to, but let's suppose that Trump's "legal theory" is correct and Biden wakes up tomorrow thinking that he's sick of dealing with the Republicans' malarkey. He orders some military groups known to be loyal to him to round up every Republican member of Congress along with certain Supreme Court justices. They are all executed. Then Trump is brought in and executed as well.

Now what would happen? Would Biden be charged with mass murder? No, he's immune to prosecution. You need to impeach and convict him first. But nobody remains who would impeach him. So he's totally immune as he appoints left leaning Supreme Court justices and expands his "early Republican retirement program" to right leaning Federal judges.

Again, I wouldn't want him doing this, but according to Trump this would be totally legal.

DrinkMonkey ,

But nobody remains who would impeach him

I want to believe there would be a principled few who would. But someone who would murder their opponents would also murder their colleagues, and they’d all know this, so…yeah.

splicerslicer ,

Look up the tape of sadaam Hussein rising to power, that's exactly what he did. Had all of his enemies carted out in front of everyone to be executed. That's the future trump wants for us.

Smacks ,
@Smacks@lemmy.world avatar

Trump is literally scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to attorneys

n3m37h ,

Ugh, Trump dug through (metiphorically, guy couldnt actually dig) the bottom of that barrel and is now into the earths mantle

hansl ,

Can you imagine the payoff though if the court agrees and he becomes president? Assassinate your enemies, straight out of Putin’s playbook. That’s a dictator’s favorite move! Democrats and liberals wouldn’t do it because they have fucking morals, but the GOP would be happy to.

Zoots ,

Trump’s lead attorney D. John Sauer argued that only a president who has been impeached and removed from office in a Senate trial potentially would be subject to prosecution for those kinds of alleged crimes

TechyDad ,
@TechyDad@lemmy.world avatar

And it gets better. In the Georgia case, they are arguing that Trump can't be tried because he was impeached for that crime and a criminal trial would be double jeopardy.

Ignore for a second that his impeachment wasn't over the Georgia crimes. Trump's lawyers are arguing that you need to impeach/convict before you can criminally charge, but if you impeach then you can't criminally charge.

Their legal theories are the equivalent of "I object! It's devastating to my case!"

dangblingus ,

If we have to debate this much whether or not a President should stand trial for criminal charges, I think he did it.

abraxas ,

, I think he did it.

At this point, we're way past that line of the narcissist's prayer

dangblingus ,

Can a lawyer be disbarred for advocating for the dissolution of the Rule of Law?

RampantParanoia2365 ,

Can he be disbarred for never having seen Schoolhouse Rock ever as a child?

Ghyste ,

An individual allowed to do anything without consequence is a dictator, not a president.

trackcharlie ,

So did the USA become a joke during 45's presidency or before?

LaunchesKayaks ,
@LaunchesKayaks@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9527c785-aecb-4539-93b2-cd1296268475.jpeg

solrize ,

What the lawyer seems to have actually said is that to prosecute the president, you first have to impeach him and remove him from office. Maybe also crazy, but still not the same as saying prosecution is impossible.

neptune ,

OK so what happens when the president assassinates the entire Senate.

Yes the logical conclusion here is definitely a violent autocracy and to pretend otherwise is a lack of imagination.

solrize ,

Heh yeah, that does complicate impeachment. Nixon still famously said "if the president does it, it is not illegal". We didn't give out because he got pardoned.

I haven't read this yet but it looks interesting:

https://theconversation.com/trumps-arguments-for-immunity-not-as-hopeless-as-some-claim-220580

dangblingus ,

I know that's what he said, but is that actually written down anywhere that that's actually the case? Seems to me, if it was actually the case, there shouldn't be this much hand-wringing.

solrize ,

Is there a good legal basis for what he said (that prosecuting the president takes an extra step compared to prosecuting anyone else)? Maybe not. It's just different than saying the president can never be prosecuted. I posted a link nearby that goes into more detail.

badaboomxx ,

I agree, and at the same time I wonder what the current president could fix the issue with the former? I mean, the current president has immunity right? /s

Lemminary ,

The US really needs to sit down and decide what the president can and cannot do. It won't be the last time magats try this shit.

go_go_gadget ,

Boomers don't think it's important so it won't happen.

randon31415 ,

Whatever 33 senators will allow and not vote to convict on an impeachment vote. Under Biden, that is what Debbie Stabenow (33rd most liberal senator) and senators more liberal will allow. Under Trump, that would be what J.D. Vance (33rd most conservative) and more conservative senators would allow.

Son_of_dad ,

Then they're saying it would be legal if Biden assassinated Trump right now.

undercrust ,

Sounds like these legal arguments are a win-win for anyone who isn't Trump then

Godnroc ,

Either his actions were treason and the sentence is death or his actions as president were untouchable in which case the president can shoot him without reprise. What a dangerous precedent to set!

TechyDad ,
@TechyDad@lemmy.world avatar

Only if the House didn't impeach him and the Senate didn't convict.

So Biden would also have to kill as many Congressional Republicans as possible to prevent any impeachment vote from succeeding. This "legal theory" is essentially saying "one murder might be criminally liable, but mass murder of political opponents is just fine!"

theodewere ,
@theodewere@kbin.social avatar

he can go live in Russia if that's the kind of "President" he wants

sukhmel ,

What a fitting show for this timeline it would've been to see Putin and Trump competing for the president 🤔

TheDoozer ,

Here's a better question, Judge Pan.

Could a president order Seal Team Six to assassinate unsympathetic judges, either of an appeals court or the Supreme Court itself, since that's an "official act?" Because that might be something worth considering.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

This argument would, in fact, suggest that the president could order a judge assassinated. And I'm guessing the appeals court knows that.

winky88 ,

Like every other grand ol' projection, I believe this should be interpreted as a threat of things to come, not academic speculation.

vexikron ,
@vexikron@lemmy.zip avatar

And so after years upon years upon decades of rhetoric from Republicans warning about the growing power of the Executive and the abuses of the Executive by FDR...

... uh, nevermind all that apparently, if our guy is in charge he should be able to just unilaterally assasinate political rivals.

You know. Like anyone that would vote to impeach him. For assassinating political rivals.

This is literal baby brain mode that actual Elementary School children could probably understand is stupid.

Hooray for living in Clown World, the dumbest possible timeline.

Tremble ,

Seal team six perched in the rafters during the state of the union address.

Biden: And now I will receive a round of applause from my good Republican colleagues. Clap, motherfuckers!

EricKHoward ,
@EricKHoward@mastodon.social avatar

@Tremble @MicroWave Saddam Hussein: how a deadly purge of opponents set up his ruthless dictatorship https://theconversation.com/saddam-hussein-how-a-deadly-purge-of-opponents-set-up-his-ruthless-dictatorship-120748

Tremble ,

Biden: taps mic….. can I get a show of hands of everyone who supports my economic agenda

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