Let me clarify that Lemmy very much has a global feed of all instances your instance hasn't defederated, and at least one user of your instance has come in contact with.
Also, ???
This is the fediverse, why would those non commercial instances be a problem for you? Because they have too many users? Is decentralization for you not having any real traffic?
Let me clarify that Lemmy very much has a global feed of all instances
Oh, indeed. I just noticed Lemmy’s choice between subscribed, local, all, and moderated views. Subscribed is the default and that’s what I’ve always used. If I choose the global view, it’s indeed the same problem as mbin (users can only block on a per-community basis). Mbin offers only the global view on the non-community-specific timeline. (edit: actually it’s like Lemmy; there are different views to choose from, but global is the default)
This is the fediverse,
Exactly. It’s a platform designed for decentralisation. It attracts users who advocate more balance of power and more control by users.
why would those non commercial instances be a problem for you?
The fediverse was constructed with a broader vision. It’s not simply a narrow effort to avoid commercialization. Facebook Threads proves that if the fedi’s sole goal were to avoid commercialization, it would have been a failure.
Because they have too many users? Is decentralization for you not having any real traffic?
Perversely disportionate trafficconcentration of control is obviously what the federated design was motivated to avoid. Otherwise, Twitter’s premium service is for you. Many inbound refugees came from Reddit, which suffers from the sharpest abuses of power I’ve ever experienced. They aren’t running from ads. They are fleeing from disempowerment. Of course the ones who have fled into another centralised node have naïvely just swapped one power imbalance for another, pawning themselves to a different master, while making themselves part of the same social problem.
I like the idea of blocking or unblocking whole instances.
That said, I agree with commenter above you: I don't see an issue with large instances. I value having a bunch of different options, and we do have a bunch of different options. Running an instance yourself requires a fair amount of work, so I'm glad to have others willing to take it on.
If anything, on the subject of control, I like the model of social.coop over on mastodon where users can vote on direction and volunteer. It's also more formally funded by user donation (you have to set up a contribution to create an account) vs instances which are funded by donation but it's kind of whoever decides to chip in.
I'm on lemmy.world because the first two instances I used disappeared. It has all the features I want and I've only had one or two connection issues with it...so why change?
I did make an account on another one because I liked the URL but I figured out why .world blocked a few instances when on the FIRST POST I clicked I found a prolific commenter who signed every post "Death to America". Call it an echo chamber, but I can live without interacting with people like that.
The personal benefit of decentralization is that I can change instances any time I want to. The broader benefit is that anyone can change instances when they want to and no one corporation controls it. If lemmy.world died tomorrow, I'd carry on using the fediverse somewhere else. Not a big deal.
I don’t see an issue with large instances. I value having a bunch of different options, and we do have a bunch of different options.
Having 7 disproportionately giant instances all centralised under the same oppressive corporation is not “a bunch of different options”. More than half the threadiverse is controlled by a single corporate power-abusing gatekeeper. The greed of the people farming ensures you have fewer options because it makes ghost towns out of instances that could have been great. Many good themed instances never got traction and pulled the plug. For example:
community.xmpp.net ← was a whole instance dedicated to XMPP discussion
links.esq.social ← was a whole instance dedicated to discussions about law
nano.garden ← was a whole instance dedicated to discussions about nano cryptocurrency
lemmy.globe.pub ← was a whole instance dedicated to discussions about travel
wayfarershaven.eu ← not sure if they were themed on travel or general purpose
These are great options that we lost because of foolish over-crowding on general purpose giants. If you put a McDonalds on every single street corner, that’s a lot of real estate that cannot be used by more creative restaraunts. Imagine if McDonalds was general, and had a huge menu (Chinese food, Mexican, Italian, French, Indian, etc). And there are no Indian or French restaurants in town but the McDs on every street corner has Indian and French cuisine. Are you happy with your options?
Alternatively, what about Amazon?
Do you think the amazon.com store gives you lots of options? I boycott Amazon because the way I see it Amazon destroys options by driving businesses out of business and thwarting the emergence of competitors. Some items are not even carried in local shops anymore. The shop staff will say “we don’t carry that anymore, check Amazon”. I can no longer find somewhat obscure goods locally.
General purpose nodes is not great from an organizational standpoint. We have ~15+ “privacy” communities because every general purpose node created one. Are there 15 significantly different rule sets that makes it sensible to have that much division?
Running an instance yourself requires a fair amount of work
Your choices are:
① self host
② use a decentralised host in the free world
③ use a centralised host in Cloudflare’s exclusive walled garden
Nixing ① does not imply ③.
If anything, on the subject of control, I like the model of social.coop over on mastodon where users can vote on direction and volunteer.
That is meaningless with Cloudflare nodes, because no one can vote to make Cloudflare inclusive. Suppose 100% of voters say CGNAT users should get access. There is no way to force Cloudflare to change their policy.
What would be an acceptable outcome for you? Instances close because people stop running them, not because other larger instances exist. Ultimately people vote with their feet, so if you want to see more smaller instances they need to become more appealing than large ones.
Also not sure what you mean by seven instances under one corporation? Are you talking about cloudflare or are you saying they're all run by the same entity?
I don't like Amazon. Why do people use it? Because it's convenient, it has the stuff they're looking for, and it has that stuff at low prices. If we want people to use an alternative, we won't do it by trying to guilt them to use a more expensive and inconvenient option. To change the status quo Amazon can get hit with antitrust law and prosocial regulation, and/or a more competitive but employee/member controlled entity can be created.
That's why I like the social.coop model. Not saying it has no issues or will be around forever, but it's important for us to be able to get big while still maintaining democratic governance. A self hosted instance will never be as competitive as one with many users. The per user cost goes down the more users there are, and the network effect means more users will go towards bigger instances. So fine, let an instance get big, but let it be democratically controlled and funded.
You seem to be asking for a book here. The requested feature is just one facet of a multifaceted problem -- to diminish the centralisation problem. One specific benefit we get from this one feature is the ability to get rid of the exclusive content that pollutes the timeline. Part of living in the free world is getting the non-free world out of the way. I need a view of the free world showing only venues where I am not excluded.
Instances close because people stop running them, not because other larger instances exist.
These two reasons are intertwined in a causal relationship.
Ultimately people vote with their feet, so if you want to see more smaller instances they need to become more appealing than large ones.
That’s not the only way. The small instances are buried in litter. Clearing the litter out of the way is a much simpler and much more effective way to see the smaller instances.
Also not sure what you mean by seven instances under one corporation? Are you talking about cloudflare or are you saying they’re all run by the same entity?
All seven instances are Cloudflare-centralised. They all give CF a view of all traffic (public and private) and they all arbitrarily discriminate against the same demographics of people. If you are denied access to one of them, you are denied access to all of them. Exceptionally, programming .dev has whitelisted Tor. But that’s just one demographic; that instance still blocks all the other demographics excluded by Cloudflare’s blockade. So users are all being controlled by the same entity.
I don’t like Amazon. Why do people use it? Because it’s convenient, it has the stuff they’re looking for, and it has that stuff at low prices. If we want people to use an alternative, we won’t do it by trying to guilt them to use a more expensive and inconvenient option.
You seem to be claiming boycotts do not work, IIUC. When it became widely known that McDonalds was giving free meals to Israeli soldiers, high numbers of people gave up the convenience and pricing that attracted them to McDs. McDs is a franchise, so different shops have different owners. McDs was forced to directly buy all the shops owned by the Israli who was giving away free meals, just to cancel that policy, just to protect the McDs brand.
Of course there are always unethical consumers. Some consumers continued eating McDs non-stop. Ethical consumers have integrity, a spine/constitution, and they practice it. They should be equipped to empower their ethical choices.
consider Lidl
Lidl was caught relabeling their Israel-sourced produce with the name of a different country in order to deceive consumers who boycott Israel. The feature I’m requesting would be hypothetically comparable to a single button robot.. a “hide Israeli produce” button. If I press it, the Israel sourced food is robotically covered to make it easier for me to find the products I’m interested in. Or along the same lines, a vegan shopper with a “hide all animal-based products” button. Ethical consumers exist and they need to be empowered with good tools.
To change the status quo Amazon can get hit with antitrust law and prosocial regulation
I could write a book on all the reasons to boycott Amazon. Amazon exploits legal loopholes. They are organise their business to get away with murder (legally, or without detection). If you wait for regulators to find some cause to slap them on the wrist, it’d be a pitiful demonstration of non-activism. The very first best move to make is to stop being a part of the problem yourself by not feeding Amazon. From there, there are countless other activist actions you can take without just waiting for them to somehow shoot themselves in the foot.
Be the change you want to see.
The per user cost goes down the more users there are, and the network effect means more users will go towards bigger instances. So fine, let an instance get big, but let it be democratically controlled and funded.
The best thing you can do is walk away from the instance, not feed it or participate in any way. AFAIK, none of the seven have this democratic structure. But if they did, it’s still a harmful force because you still have a centralised policy that affects a disproportionate number of people and which also keeps smaller instances small.
I can see that you're upset about cloudfare being forced on anyone using the large instances. And all things being equal I'd prefer that users weren't forced to accept that choice too. You're right that the large instances are not democratically governed, that's what I was driving at. I don't think the solution is steering people to small or self hosted instances. Any small instance if successful will become a large instance that by default is controlled by one person or a small group. But more importantly, most people just aren't going to do that. The solution should be addressed at a system and process level, not by relying on people making personal choices. Personal choices are important, and significant social movements typically start with a small group of people taking a harder path and advocating change. I'm not poo-pooing boycotts and things like that, and education/awareness is important too. But again, what I'm driving at is let's get big, but do so democratically. It's great to have our little corner of the world that's sun and roses, but as long as there are giants roaming around we're at their whim and will eventually get stepped on. Sure, we can boycott mcdonalds, but we're essentially begging them to make a change. What if we could demand it by right, because we own it? That's what I'd like to see, cooperatives everywhere, that can compete on equal footing with corporations.
I can see that you’re upset about cloudfare being forced on anyone using the large instances.
This implies some kind of emotional drive and disregards the nuts and bolts of the actual problem. The breakage that manifests makes the fedi less usable and more exclusive, which the design rightfully tries to avoid but falls short. CF being pushed on ppl using large instances is not at all the issue. That’s self-inflicted harm. Cloudflare and big instances both independently pose a centralization problem which can easily be condemned together. Neither form of centralisation benefits the fedi. The fact that CF-centralised nodes and disproportionately large nodes tend to be the same nodes is the universe organising the garbage together -- like when Bayar and Monsanto merged. Easier to deal with the baddies when they are consolidated.
lemmy.ml less trivial
The lemmy.ml instance is less trivial because it’s disproportionately large, but they shrunk a bit and ditched Cloudflare. They bring a lot of political baggage, but they are also said to be less tyrannical than they were in the past. So what how to treat lemmy.ml is questionable and messy.
You’re right that the large instances are not democratically governed,
Yes but to be clear, governance is your focus not mine. I’m saying centralized instances are detrimental no matter how they are governed. If they are well-governed then you might say they are more likely to be decentralized, but then of course users could decide to unblock them if they achieve that.
But more importantly, most people just aren’t going to do that.
This is more of the “people don’t boycott” logic. First of all, the perception that people do not boycott does not justify stripping people of their power to boycott. The feature I propose gives people boycott power. And not only that, it gives them a way to function -- a way to get the exclusive junk and broken images off their screen.
how my Twitter boycott paid off
I was on Twitter long before elon took it, and before phone numbers were required. When Twitter started demanding a mobile phone number from me, I walked. Boycotted. Not long after that I got news that Twitter was caught selling users’ personal data which was inconsistent with the privacy policy. Then shortly after that announcement, it was announced that cybercriminals breached Twitter and stole people’s personal info anyway. My boycott was not emotion driven. It was me making a calculated decision not to trust Twitter with my profitable data, and me deciding not to help Twitter profit from their policy of exclusion (people denied access who do not have mobile phones). And it was the right move. It paid off in the form of not being a victim. I’m grateful that I had boycott power. If boycott power is available but underutilized, the idiots who don’t use it can blame themselves.
The solution should be addressed at a system and process level, not by relying on people making personal choices.
This is a bit false dichotomy-ish. People should be empowered with agency to control their own interactions. That empowerment does not obviate system-wide improvements. It complements them.
But again, what I’m driving at is let’s get big, but do so democratically.
It’s defeatist. To grow disproportionately is to be centralised. Good governance is useless if it fails to prevent centralization. Maybe good governance can lead to a detrimentally centralised instance splitting into many decentralised instances, at which point those nodes are participating in the free world.
If some giant node organises a democratic process, it’s not for me or anyone to stop them. The feature I propose does not interfere with that in the slightest.
A democratic process still produces shitty results & cannot be relied on
Everyone might decide to save money and use Cloudflare anyway. It’s shocking how many people see no problem with Cloudflare. And it’s mind-boggling how selfish people can be in large numbers. Xenophobic Trump supporters shows at what great scale it can happen on. Another example: a majority of the population has a mobile phone subscription, and a majority is also not ethically opposed to tax-funded public services that exclude non-mobile subscribers (e.g. like a public library requiring SMS confirmation to use wifi). They will vote for what benefits them personally at the detriment of the minority. So if a democratically controlled service opts for Cloudflare anyway, it’s the same problem. People marginalised by Cloudflare still need tools to tailor their view to show venues where they are included.
It’s great to have our little corner of the world that’s sun and roses, but as long as there are giants roaming around we’re at their whim and will eventually get stepped on.
You are literally advocating for the status quo that causes the giants to step on the rest. My searches are clobbered to a dysfunctional extent because these shitty exclusive nodes fill the top results (that’s another bug I already exposed in this community).
Sure, we can boycott mcdonalds, but we’re essentially begging them to make a change.
Not at all. Begging them to change is the position you take when you neglect to boycott -- begging is the shitty option you have. I’m not begging. I walk. McDs can fuck right off. They get zero begging from me. To keep feeding McDs is to be in that disempowered defeatist position of weakness. In the case at hand, enough people made the right decision to put McDs in the begging position; begging for customers to return.
We don't need a different up/down per category. We just need a system where people vote about the article once as Funny/Insightful/Important/Troll/Paywalled/Fake etc. Similar to the slashdot model.
Perhaps. Simplicity is important. But what if I circumvent the exclusivity of an article by finding a mirrored copy on archive.org? If the content is quite insighful, would then want to say it is both exclusive and insightful. Those metrics together could then be used to work out whether it’s worthwhile to find a replacement source for the same content.
And speaking of replacement links, we need a way to add them and have the alternative links voted on, and ultimately the replacement link should potentially outrank the original link and take the spotlight. I will add this to the OP.
Your account is 3 years old (strangely almost no posts or comments though) and I've noticed the people that were here before everyone else seems to hate the new wave of people that showed up a year ago
Your account is 3 years old (strangely almost no posts or comments though)
Then your view is being restricted¹. I don’t know how sheltering lemmyworld admins are of their users generally but the Mastodon analog to #lemmyworld would be mastodon.social, and mastodon.social is quite loose with the censor button. There have been conversations where people only saw part of the conversation and were confused because they knew someone else was engaged but they could not see the whole conversation. After investigation, it was not a federation issue but in fact the mastodon.social admin simply decided to block a particular person. I would not be surprised if lemmyworld were blocking me in some way because anyone who outspokenly advocates for decentralisation is directly undermining lemmyworld’s position (lemmyworld is centralised both by Cloudflare and also by disproportionate userbase).
and I’ve noticed the people that were here before everyone else seems to hate the new wave of people that showed up a year ago
The fediverse was created out of love for a #decentralised free world. Centralised nodes like #LemmyWorld, #FBThreads, #shItjustWorks, #LemmyCA, #LemmyOne, etc work against the philosophy of decentralisation. Users on those nodes are either not well informed about the problems of concentrated imbalances of power, or they simply do not care and do not value digital rights; they only care about their personal reach. Fixing the bug reported here addresses the former (uninformed users).
The bug report herein is specifically designed to be an inclusive alternative to what you suggest, which is:
Why don’t you just convince your admin to defederate? Or go make you own instance for just people you agree with?
Locking people out on the crude basis of which node they come from is somewhat comparable to what Cloudflare (and lemmyworld) does by discriminating against people on the crude basis of IP reputation. It over selects and under selects at the same time if the goal is to separate good links from bad links. Anyone can post a shitty link. A majority of shitty links would come from the lemmyworld crowd, but it’s not a good criteria for a spam/ham separation. The fedi needs to improve by tagging bad links appropriately, which should not be influenced by the host the author uses.
Which is almost as ridiculous as acting like an admin shouldn’t be able to ban someone from their instance.
The admin did not know why they were suppressing the messages. Apparently they did not keep notes. So they reversed the action. But no one here said admins should not have the power to ban. Quite the contrary: they should. And because they should have that power, it should not be disproportionate. One million people should not lose access to civil posts from Bob because Mallory the admin did not like one of Bob’s ideas. This is why decentralisation is important.
TIL there are people who (try to) use grep for natural language.
Whatever the case, I'd rather not modify (GNU) grep for this purpose. If grep can be hacked to do this (tr '\n' ' ' | grep 'the orange menace' or something maybe only a little more sophisticated?) then more power to you. Otherwise, making a separate tool is probably better.
If all you're advocating for is allowing grep to use some other character as a delimeter, I might be able to get behind something like bash's $IFS or awk's $FS variable (maybe). But I couldn't get behind anything backwards-incompatible.
Meanwhile, PDFGREP isn't associated with any maintainers of grep, is it? I've never used it and I don't know if you're saying "because PDFGREP is good at handling natural language, grep should be too" or "grep should be good at handling natural language and PDFGREP even more so, but neither is." Either way, I don't follow how PDFGREP is relevant to discussions about grep (unless they are related, but I'd be surprised if that was the case.)
Oh, and this is 100% feature/enhancement request territory. Not a bug report in any sense.
If all you’re advocating for is allowing grep to use some other character as a delimeter, I might be able to get behind something like bash’s $IFS or awk’s $FS variable (maybe). But I couldn’t get behind anything backwards-incompatible.
Of course. GREP has an immeasurable number of scripts dependant on it worldwide going back 50 years and it’s among Debian’s 23 essential packages:
Changing grep’s default behavior now would bring the world down. Dams would shatter. Nuclear power plants would melt down. Traffic lights would go berzerk. It would be like a Die Hard 3 “firesale”. Planes would fall out of the sky. Skynet would come online and wipe us all out. It would have to be a separate option.
TIL there are people who (try to) use grep for natural language.
The very first task grep was created for is specifically natural language input. Search “Federalist Papers grep”. There’S also a short documentary about this out in the wild somewhere but I don’t have any link handy.
Oh, and this is 100% feature/enhancement request territory. Not a bug report in any sense.
This is conventional wisdom coming from a viewpoint that simultaneously misses grep’s intended purpose.
But now that the defect has been rooted in for ~50 years, perhaps fair enough to leave grep alone. For me it depends on how lean the improvement could be. Boating grep out too much would not be favorable, but substantial replication of code between two different tools is also unfavorable. Small is good, but swiss army knives of tools also bring great value if they can be lean and internally simple.
I don’t know if you’re saying “because PDFGREP is good at handling natural language, grep should be too”
Not at all. They both have the same problem. But this same limitation in pdfgrep is a nuissance in more situations because PDFs are proportionally more likely to process natural language input.
Either way, I don’t follow how PDFGREP is relevant to discussions about grep
They have the same expression language and roughly same options. PDFGREP is most likely not much more than a grep wrapper that extracts the text from the PDF first.
Not a defect. What is it with people equating "doesn't do this one hairbrained thing I want it to" with "broken?"
It's not a bug if it works as designed. Unless somewhere some official documentation says (some specific version of) grep supports what you're advocating for but the actual grep command doesn't, it's not a defect. It's a feature request.
To qualify as a "bug", I'd also accept "it used to do this and it doesn't any more and not on purpose".
Even if (say, GNU) grep maintainers decided they'd make grep support what you're going for, there'd still be design to do. Should it be a flag? Should the regex syntax be extended to support this? Should we add an environment variable? Some combination of the three? Something else? If we go with the flag, what should it be called and what should be its semantic meaning? Should it take an argument? Etc, etc, etc.
Even assuming this feature is necessary to fulfill "grep's intended purpose" (and I'm far from convinced it is), that doesn't make it a bug if it was never designed in to the program.
What you claim here is that software cannot have a defective design. Of course you have design defects. These are the hardest to correct.
I’d also accept “it used to do this and it doesn’t any more and not on purpose”.
This is conventional wisdom. Past behavior is no more an indication of correctness than defectiveness. GREP’s purpose was to process natural language. A line feed is not a sensible terminator in that application. For 50 years people just live with the limitation or they worked around it. Or they adapt to single token searches. It does not cease to be defect because workarounds were available.
that doesn’t make it a bug if it was never designed in to the program.
The original design was implemented on an extremely resource-poor system by today’s standards, where 64k was HUGE amount of space. It was built to function under limitations that no longer exist. I would say the design is not defective so long as your target platform is a PDP-11 from the 1970s. Otherwise the design should evolve along with the tasks and machines.
grep isn’t really designed as a natural language search tool
My understanding of GREP history is that Ken Thompson created grep to do some textual analysis on The Federalist Papers, which to me sounds like it was designed for processing natural language. But it was on a PDP-11 which had resource constraints. Lines of text would be more uniform to manage than sentences given limited resources of the 1970s.
Thanks for the PERL code. Though I might favor sed or awk for that job. Of course that also means complicating emacs’ grep mode facility. And for PDFs I guess I’d opt for pdfgrep’s limitations over doing a text extraction on every PDF.
Hm... yeah, I didn't know that; I just sort of assumed that it was for searching code etc initially, but you are correct.
BTW I just learned about pcregrep -M which can do a little more directly what you're asking for -- you can do pcregrep -M 'the(.|\n)orange(.|\n)menace' which seems to work, although you may want -A or -B to give a little more useful output also.
UPDATE: it just now happened again, but this time not with the admin account (@QuentinCallaghan) but with another user account. I was refreshing my profile and the user @baltakatei appeared in the profile pulldown position on the page with my profile. This time I had time to take a screenshot before it changed:
It’s interesting that it shows my profile page but not as I see it. That is, when I visit my own profile page I normally have a “subscribed” sidebar. This shows what someone else would see if they visit my profile while they are logged in, which still differs from what a logged out profile looks like (as send msg options were given). So I wonder if I could have sent myself a msg.
Thanks for digging into the problem. So in the end, it looks like you’ve worked it out that the content is getting archived but it’s just not rendering, correct? It used to render. Apparently the Mastodon JavaScript got too fancy and broke the use of archival.
I wondered at first if Mastodon was deliberately archive-hostile. The sensible ways to block archival are host-specific¹, so I guess it’s still unclear.
¹ (for lack of better phrasing… I don’t mean to imply it’s sensible to block archival to begin with)
It really is a shame the archived version isn't rendering, as it really does need to be archived. It's really shitty of any medical provider to reject patients based on not owning a smartphone.
Confirming from Firefox on Android, the archived page is blank. It sure seems to take a long moment to load the blank page though, so the archive apparently archived something at least.
Whether part of that something includes the post itself I can't tell, I'd try to examine the archived files and links if I could, but I'm away from my computer today.
Bug reports on any software
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