‘Get on a plane’: Danish minister urged to meet Greenland coil scandal women ( www.theguardian.com )

The Danish health minister should “get on a plane and visit” some of the thousands of women thought to be living with the consequences of being forcibly fitted with the contraceptive coil as children, Greenland’s gender equality minister has said.

In an attempt to reduce the population of the former Danish colony, at least 4,500 women and girls are believed to have undergone the medical procedure, usually without their consent or knowledge, at the hands of Danish doctors between 1966 and 1970 alone.

The total number of those affected by the procedures, thought to have continued for decades, is understood to be far higher. Victims and their lawyers say generations of Inuit women were left traumatised and suffering reproductive complications, including infertility, as a result of the Danish state’s policy.

Earlier this month, a group of 143 women sued the Danish state over the alleged violations, but they have yet to receive a response from the government, despite the Danish prime minister visiting Greenland – now an autonomous territory of Denmark – soon after.

livus ,

This is such a horrible case and it's disgusting that Greenland have had to open their own investigation of it while Denmark keeps ignoring it.

Large pieces of copper were forced into the bodies of children as young as 12 during "routine" medical exams at school. With disastrous effects.

For several decades, Lyberth repressed her trauma. “I think I was so ashamed that I didn’t want to remember or talk about it,” she says. But the consequences for her body soon became apparent – and lasting.

IUDs are normally effective for a period of up to ten years, after which they can cause complications such as infections and infertility. The ones forced upon young girls in Greenland were larger than modern devices.

“I had intense period pains, with enormous bleeding that forced me to stay at home,” she explains. It was only when she reached menopause, at around 50, that she realised the cause of her suffering.

“I started having circulation problems and ovarian cysts. I was in so much pain that the doctors were considering removing my uterus,” she says. “That’s when it all came back to me.”

From this article from a few months back.

rikudou ,

a very white way of thinking

Can people nowadays state an opinion without being racist?

Other than that the story is horrible. It won't fix the problem for many (most?) of them, but I hope they get as much money as they can by suing the government.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Reverse racism is bullshit because "white" as a category is only exclusionary. It does not exist to acknowledge any culture or nationality. I am white but would lose nothing from my identity if the concept were abolished tomorrow.

It is a political category that exists purely to discriminate against those who fall outside of it. In that sense, this eugenics program was indeed "a very white way of thinking".

You don't have to identify with that if you're white. You can reject the concept of race as being valid - it is unscientific and entirely socially constructed - whilst still recognising that racial categories and racism have real consqeuences and do real harm.

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Thank you for saying it. :)

rikudou ,

There's nothing reverse about it, it's plain racism.

This is the definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

Except the minority everything checks out. Note the word "typically" when referring to minority.

Unless you want to change the definition of racism (which many of you fellas seem to want to), racism against white people is just racism, nothing "reverse" about it.

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

White isn't a race. White is a lack of pigmentation.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Is Black not a race, just the presence of pigmentation?

rikudou ,

So is black, what's your point?

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Black is not a lack of pigmentation. If you believe that may I suggest heading back to Biology 101 for an upgrade course.

rikudou ,

Yeah, let's pretend that's what I meant. You should feel proud.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Where did you get that definition? What is the context? And even then, the point is not to find a dictionary definition but to understand what race is and what it means.

Dictionaries describe how words are used, they are not complete academic breakdowns of concepts. Yes, some people - like you - will call reverse racism actual racism, so the dictionary captures that usage, but even it acknowledges that that is atypical.

Once you understand that white is not truly a part of anyone's identity but a political category that is imposed by a power structure, you can stop getting butthurt whenever anyone attacks the concept, because you'll realise that you don't have to take it personally.

Honestly it's pretty insulting to the racism that non-white people face every single day to apply the same word to what white people deal with. It is not in any way equivalent.

rikudou ,

I could take the time to paraphrase every sentence you used with black people, but I'm kinda tired today, so you just have to believe me it can be done.

But I'll write this: You don't get to decide what is and isn't part of someone else's identity. That's called oppression, you know? The exact same thing that has been done to minorities over centuries and millennia. We have a name or two for that, one of those names is "racism".

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

As a mixed-race individual, it's not about whether race is a valid identifier in any objective sense or not. Our society still puts a great deal of emphasis on race regardless.

I wouldn't consider my identity particularly 'white', but when that's used to denigrate me, like I'm only part-valid? That feels like shit. Something between rage and absolute isolation.

ichbinjasokreativ ,

Your point fails to recognize that the US isn't the only country in the world. 'black' as a concept makes no sense on the global scale either and the internet does exist in other countries too.

livus ,

Yeah it is a bit frustrating reading this discussion. You can't pick whereabouts in the world a "white" person lives, let alone their language and culture, because it isn't an ethnicity. Same goes for "black".

Race isn't ethnicity, it's a categorization of humans based on particular histories of how certain ethnic groups interacted with each other in the past and how it informs the present.

As such it's meaningful/useful in relation to societal and geopolitical inequality and power structures but not when we are talking about cultural identity.

I find it insane that the US still uses it for demographic data, it's very 19th century of them.

Viking_Hippie ,

Can people nowadays state an opinion without being racist?

Expressions like "a very white way of thinking" and "sounds about white" aren't racist. They're not about race at all, they're about privilege.

It's basically using "white" as a shorthand for "privileged people not aware of their own privilege or the challenges of others, many of whom are white".

Other than that the story is horrible. It won't fix the problem for many (most?) of them, but I hope they get as much money as they can by suing the government.

Speaking as a Dane, I agree almost 100%. Our government treated inuits absolutely atrociously in the bad old days and it's caused immense harm. They deserve to get reparations without having to go through the hassle of a lawsuit first.

rikudou ,

Oh, that's nonsense. Sure, what might be underneath is about privilege, but, you know, being white myself I haven't had much privilege. Because my family was on the extremely poor side of things.

Sure, being in Europe in itself is a privilege, but that goes for black/asian/other people living in Europe as well. Other than that, I'm as white as they come, but I didn't have any privilege, except those I fought hard for. Turns out privilege doesn't have much with skin color, but is caused by capital and money.

So, it's the same as treating all black people as criminals, to dig out another stereotype. Sure, there are statistical reasons to say that (as are for the so-called white privilege), but it's incredibly racist to treat black people as criminals by default (as is attributing shortcomings of the privileged to white people). Believe me, most white people I knew growing up weren't what you'd call privileged.

I don't think I ask for too much when I don't want people to use my skin color to mean something bad, do I? Like, have we learned nothing? It's frankly disgusting that racism against me is allowed because it's socially acceptable. Racism against black people and Jewish people used to be socially acceptable, too. And I for one really dislike racism because it's stupid and I don't particularly care which group you're being racist to.

To chronic downvoters: If you only downvote without providing your thoughts on the topic, your opinion on this topic is as important as my dog's.

They deserve to get reparations without having to go through the hassle of a lawsuit first.

That would be nice, but what government wants to pay for their mistakes?

Viking_Hippie ,

being white myself I haven't had much privilege.

You're still more privileged than you would be if you weren't white. And I say that as someone who hasn't had an easy life either, but would have a much harder one if I hadn't been lucky enough to be born a cishet white male in a rich and somewhat well-functioning country.

being in Europe in itself is a privilege, but that goes for black/asian/other people living in Europe as well.

To a MUCH lesser degree, though. They experience hardships that we don't because they don't have our privilege of having the only skin color that isn't discriminated against in Europe

I'm as white as they come, but I didn't have any privilege

Again, not how it works. Having privilege isn't a binary of either playing on easy mode with all privileges or not being privileged at all.

A rich and powerful person with the same skin color, gender, sexuality and nationality as me but no disabilities is MUCH more privileged than I am, but that doesn't mean that I don't have any privilege.

except those I fought hard for

Again, having privilege ≠ everything being easy.

Turns out privilege doesn't have much with skin color, but is caused by capital and money.

Again with the false dichotomy of everyone being either extremely privileged or not privileged at all 🤦

So, it's the same as treating all black people as criminals

Whoa, wtf?? It absolutely is NOT! That's a BIZARRE comparison!

Sure, there are statistical reasons to say that

From the cops who consistently target people of color more. Black people aren't inherently more criminal than white people.

White people ARE inherently more privileged in a society built by their ancestors to give them advantages at the cost of disadvantages for everyone else, though.

it's incredibly racist to treat black people as criminals by default

And the 2024 "Well, Duh!" Award goes to..

as is attributing shortcomings of the privileged to white people)

No. Absolutely not.

Believe me, most white people I knew growing up weren't what you'd call privileged.

If I took a shot every time you trotted out that false dichotomy, I'd be absolutely wasted by now.

I don't think I ask for too much when I don't want people to use my skin color to mean something bad, do I

Like it or not, your skin color gives you privilege. If you acknowledge your privilege and don't abuse it, "sounds about white" and similar expressions aren't about you and you have nothing to worry about on that account.

Like, have we learned nothing?

I couldn't say about everyone, but it sure seems that YOU haven't.

It's frankly disgusting that racism against me is allowed because it's socially acceptable

Again, not racism. It's not about all white people.

Racism against black people and Jewish people used to be socially acceptable, too.

Now you're going to bring jewish people into your ridiculous false analogy too? Ffs! Are you trying to start the oppression Olympics or something?

Spoiler alert: we don't medal in that sport.

And I for one really dislike racism because it's stupid

So is pretending that calling out privilege and the lack of awareness thereof is racist.

To chronic downvoters: If you only downvote without providing your thoughts on the topic, your opinion on this topic is as important as my dog's.

Sounds like your dog knows about as much about what privilege is or isn't as you do. I bet your dog is much cuter too.

what government wants to pay for their mistakes?

The Danish one. Unlike certain other ones, it tends to be serious about dealing with its past atrocities and the effects they had on the victims.

rikudou ,

Well, I've lost interest in a discussion with you, if you're unable to discuss without saying stuff like And the 2024 “Well, Duh!” Award goes to…, you're not worth discussion.

Edit: That was before I read the other personal jabs at me. Well, if you ever wonder why you can't convince other people of your opinions, it's this behaviour.

Viking_Hippie ,

Sure, focus on how impolite it is for me to point out that you're stating the blindingly obvious rather than at all consider my many valid counterpoints to your flurry of much more insulting accusations towards me and everyone else who use or even understand some very common expressions 🙄

rikudou ,

I usually don't reply to the following messages, but I'm gonna make an exception, because it might help you in the future: Yes, I'm gonna ignore all your other points, because I have no interest in a discussion with someone who makes personal attacks at me. I've had some thoughts prepared to write down and discuss further until I reached the point where you made personal attacks.

In short, you're not worthy of my time - not because I disagree with your points, but because you had to go and make it personal.

Anyway, this was truly the last message from me to you.

I_Has_A_Hat ,

So many words when you could just say "I'm racist" and get the same point across.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

It’s basically using “white” as a shorthand for “privileged people not aware of their own privilege or the challenges of others, many of whom are white”.

So you could conceivably call someone who is Black but otherwise belonging to privileged groups 'white'?

Check, please!

Viking_Hippie ,

You could call out someone who is black but otherwise privileged for acting very white, yes.

Clarence Thomas comes to mind, for example.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

White is when bad, and the more bad it is, the more white they are.

Great.

Viking_Hippie ,

Nope, that's not at all what I'm saying.

Because white people are inherently privileged and the most unaware privileged people are white, that's the expression for acting oblivious to your own privilege and the obstacles and other hardships of people without your privilege.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Normal racists, they're shitheads. Who the fuck gives a fuck about them. But people like you, joyfully, innocently, self-righteously denigrating people because of what race they are or partially are, because they're 'privileged', and therefore who gives a shit about them? Immensely frustrating.

If you applied that kind of standard to literally any other fucking racial category and negative qualifier, you'd call it out as horrifically racist, and rightly so.

Viking_Hippie ,

people like you, joyfully, innocently, self-righteously denigrating people because of what race they are or partially are

Nope. I have been abundantly clear from the start that it's about the BEHAVIOR and LACK OF AWARENESS of some people, not the color of their skin.

because they're 'privileged', and therefore who gives a shit about them

Another ridiculous strawman. I have pointed out that I myself am privileged. You might consider it unwarranted, given your ridiculous crusade to misrepresent everything I sa, but I very much DO give a shit about myself and many others who are privileged but aren't asses about it.

Immensely frustrating.

Yes, your lack of comprehension and/or bad faith sure is.

If you applied that kind of standard to literally any other fucking racial category and negative qualifier, you'd call it out as horrifically racist, and rightly so.

Except I keep pointing out that I'm NOT talking about all white people. White people like myself didn't CHOOSE to be born privileged, but we DO choose whether to acknowledge that privilege and the lack of privilege of others rather than throwing a tantrum about imagined racism.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Nope. I have been abundantly clear from the start that it’s about the BEHAVIOR and LACK OF AWARENESS of some people, not the color of their skin.

... by using the term 'white' in the racial sense to denigrate those people.

If you called someone who was white 'Black' "because they were acting like a thug", and objected that it was BEHAVIOR you were talking about, not skin color, would that be any less fucking racist?

The answer is "No"

Why don't we skip ahead to the end and have you call me a cracker? I've been through this song and dance before. It's funny - the emphasis is always on listening to the experiences of minorities until someone who's mixed-race comes along, then suddenly all of these supposedly liberal people become white saviors who are the arbiters what is and is not offensive.

Viking_Hippie ,

by using the term 'white' in the racial sense to denigrate those people.

Nope. Sometimes words have different meanings and connotations than just the literal one. This is one of those times.

'Black' "because they were acting like a thug

See, THAT'S a racist as fuck dog whistle. Using "white" as a shorthand for "specific privileged people who are behaving badly" to criticise those specific people for their behavior isn't.

Why don't we skip ahead to the end and have you call me a cracker

Fuck off with that rice paper skin bullshit.

the emphasis is always on listening to the experiences of minorities

Which there is a general lack of

until someone who's mixed-race comes along, then suddenly all of these supposedly liberal people become white saviors who are the arbiters what is and is not offensive.

Nope. What the fuck are you babbling about? Sounds like you have a specific situation in mind that does not at all apply here.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Nope. Sometimes words have different meanings and connotations than just the literal one. This is one of those times.

"Other than the literal one" is literally what I'm addressing.

See, THAT’S a racist as fuck dog whistle. Using “white” as a shorthand for “specific privileged people who are behaving badly” to criticise those specific people for their behavior isn’t.

Okay. Explain to me the difference without using "One is established and the other is something I recently made up."

Go.

Fuck off with that rice paper skin bullshit.

Oh, great. More casual racism.

Nope. What the fuck are you babbling about? Sounds like you have a specific situation in mind that does not at all apply here.

It's literally the situation right fucking here.

Viking_Hippie ,

Explain to me the difference without using "One is established and the other is something I recently made up."

I already did multiple times in multiple ways. If you didn't understand the first ten times, you probably won't now, either.

Oh, great. More casual racism.

Rice paper is known for being extremely thin and delicate. That's what I was referring to, which should have been clear from the context. That you thought it meant something racist is on you, not me.

It's literally the situation right fucking here

Nope. The situation right fucking here is that you're either more dense than a neutron star or arguing in bad faith to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

Either way, I've wasted more than enough time trying to explain this to you so I'm going to let you continue to be wrong without me. Have the day you deserve.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Goodbye, White Savior. Thank you for teaching me the follies of my own experiences. I'll kowtow and beat my head on the ground in praise of how liberal you've been to me.

Viking_Hippie ,

🥱🤫

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Yeah, that's about the reaction I expected. You have fun being incredibly racist against mixed-race individuals.

Viking_Hippie ,

Aww, you're such a butthurt little liar! So adorable! 😂

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Aww, you’re such a butthurt little liar! So adorable! 😂

So now I'm not even biracial according to you. Wow. Thank you for explaining that to me. I don't know what I would do without white saviors like you.

Viking_Hippie ,

So now I'm not even biracial according to you

Yet another thing I never said 🥱

Didn't even know that it was yourself you were talking about when you brought up mixed race people until now lol.

But just to be clear: I am not denigrating mixed race people in general. I am making fun of YOU specifically because YOU specifically are BEHAVING like an idiot, which has nothing to do with race.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Yet another thing I never said 🥱

Yeah, that's about the reaction I expected. You have fun being incredibly racist against mixed-race individuals.

Aww, you’re such a butthurt little liar! So adorable! 😂

The options given that context are:

  1. You were calling me a liar for accusing you of being a racist after you spent an entire comment chain telling me that mixed-race people don't get to have a say in what is and is not offensive to them.
  2. You were calling me a liar for claiming to be mixed-race.

Take your pick.

Viking_Hippie ,

You were calling me a liar for accusing you of being a racist

Bingo! Got it in one!

you spent an entire comment chain telling me that mixed-race people don't get to have a say in what is and is not offensive to them.

I did nothing of the sort, no. That only happened inside your fevered imaginings.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

I did nothing of the sort, no. That only happened inside your fevered imaginings.

lmao

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

Whate is not a race. It describes people of mostly European ancestry. So be specific.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

"Black is not a race. It describes people of mostly African ancestry. So be specific."

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

It's almost like white is literally different to all those other racial categories.

White is an exclusionary concept. If someone is half black, half asian or half hispanic, then they are typically treated by society as non-white unless they are white-passing, and even then their treatment will change as soon as their family is included in the picture. They are not considered non-black, non-asian or non-hispanic.

It's easy to say that you would consider them half/half, but that's just not what they experience in the world outside this comment thread, so it's meaningless.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

White is an exclusionary concept. If someone is half black, half asian or half hispanic, then they are typically treated by society as non-white unless they are white-passing, and even then their treatment will change as soon as their family is included in the picture. They are not considered non-black, non-asian or non-hispanic.

Are you fucking kidding me

This is not even close to true.

Any time anyone wants to fuck with you, they get to say you aren't white or non-white enough for whatever the fuck is going on at the moment.

It’s easy to say that you would consider them half/half, but that’s just not what they experience in the world outside this comment thread, so it’s meaningless.

Thank you for informing me about the experiences of my life and many other mixed-race individuals; what would I do without someone to tell me what I REALLY experience?

White people generally hear racism from other white people. But there's a whole fucking world of racism out there, and "Mixed race people only suffer because they're non-white!" is fucking ignorant of the facts on the ground.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

It's telling that the only real example of so-called anti-white racism that anyone can come up with is about someone who is mixed-race experiencing discrimination from their family.

It sucks and I'm sorry that happens to you, but it's not anti-white. It's another form of racism that only affects non-white people. Just because it comes from non-white people doesn't make it anti-white.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

from their family.

Lmao.

Not just family.

It sucks and I’m sorry that happens to you, but it’s not anti-white. It’s another form of racism that only affects non-white people. Just because it comes from non-white people doesn’t make it anti-white.

So let me get this straight:

Denigrating someone explicitly because of their white ancestry is not anti-white.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Fine, "other members of their community."

So let me get this straight:

Denigrating someone explicitly because of their white ancestry is not anti-white.

Does it happen to and genuinely negatively affect white people? Or are they specifically targeting you as a mixed-race person?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Does it happen to and genuinely negatively affect white people?

Yes, white people are negatively affected by being denigrated too.

Or are they specifically targeting you as a mixed-race person?

When you're mixed-race, often you're not seen as mixed-race. Often, you're seen as whatever race is most convenient to the prejudices of the observer.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Yes, white people are negatively affected by being denigrated too.

"Denigrated"? Sure. We're talking about the specific oppression you're talking about, and I don't see any examples of this kind of racism affecting white people.

And starting with "When you’re mixed-race" doesn't really create the impression that this is a form of oppression that affects other people.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

“Denigrated”? Sure. We’re talking about the specific oppression you’re talking about, and I don’t see any examples of this kind of racism affecting white people.

You... don't see any examples... of white people being denigrated for their ancestry...?

Like, it's obviously not on the level of anti-Black racism. But are you being serious right now?

And starting with “When you’re mixed-race” doesn’t really create the impression that this is a form of oppression that affects other people.

... I don't really understand where you think anti-white denigration to a mixed-race individual springs from if not anti-white sentiment. Like, by definition, here, mixed-race individuals are attacked in many cases because they're seen either as completely white, or as 'too white'.

Is it... only not okay to engage in anti-white racism if you're sure the person is of Pure White Blood(tm)? If I get called a cracker, should my response be "No, no, I'm mixed-race, I'm one of the cool ones"?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

If a black person called me a cracker it wouldn't scare me very much because I know that I have the privilege of being white, and I know that, whether I like it or not, the entire white-supremacist apparatus of the state is likely to prevent me from having to deal with any racial oppression. Those individual people could still hurt me, but so could anyone. They are still far less likely to attack me because they know how dangerous that would be for them, but a white person attacking a black person is more likely to be protected.

When you get called "cracker", you know that you don't have that apparatus behind you. You know that cops, the legal system, and myriad other racist things that you probably know better than me, are still going to treat you as non-white. So the "cracker" attack hurts because you're being excluded from the community that would otherwise protect you when the apparatus of the state won't. I'm not trying to whitesplain this to you, that's very much what you described when you called it "rage and absolute isolation".

That's why the attack hurts you as a mixed-race person, but not me as a white person. I do not experience that isolation. That's the difference.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

If a black person called me a cracker it wouldn’t scare me very much because I know that I have the privilege of being white, and I know that, whether I like it or not, the entire white-supremacist apparatus of the state is likely to prevent me from having to deal with any serious oppression. Those individual people could still hurt me, but so could anyone. They are still far less likely to attack me because they know how dangerous that would be for them, but a white person attacking a black person is more likely to be protected.

... do you think racists often engage in in-depth calculus of their odds, or are they impulsive shitheads? Because in my experience, racists are the latter.

When you get called “cracker”, you know that you don’t have that apparatus behind you. You know that cops, the legal system, and myriad other racist things that you probably know better than me, are still going to treat you as non-white.

Or they might treat me as white.

So the “cracker” attack hurts because you’re being excluded from the community that would otherwise protect you when the apparatus of the state won’t.

No, that's definitely not it. The "cracker" attack hurts because it's an invalidation of who I am, or who I'm perceived to be. I don't expect my community to protect me where the state wouldn't. That's... not even close to my experience of expectations of community.

If I get called a cracker by someone who doesn't share either of my racial backgrounds, do you think that hurts... less?

I’m not trying to whitesplain this to you, that’s very much what you described when you called it “rage and absolute isolation”.

What you are describing is rage and absolute isolation, but not the rage and absolute isolation I was talking about.

That’s why the attack hurts you as a mixed-race person, but not me as a white person. I do not experience that isolation. That’s the difference.

You don't experience the isolation. That doesn't mean that denigrating you for your ancestry suddenly becomes acceptable. It is racist, and, furthermore, the prevalence of anti-white racism, even when not directed at mixed-race people, is still harmful to mixed-race people.

Another way of putting it - a man's daughter hears him calling her mother a bitch. It doesn't matter that it's not directed at her.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You don’t experience the isolation. That doesn’t mean that denigrating you for your ancestry suddenly becomes acceptable. It is racist, and, furthermore, the prevalence of anti-white racism, even when not directed at mixed-race people, is still harmful to mixed-race people.

But it's not especially harmful to white people. That's the point. You laid it out so perfectly that I don't feel like I have much more to add to be honest.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

But it’s not especially harmful to white people.

It's not especially harmful to white people to be denigrated for who they are...?

If society as a whole wasn't horrifically anti-Black in its racism, would it then be okay to use anti-Black slurs? Because it wouldn't be 'especially harmful'?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Were these supposed to be trick questions?

It’s not especially harmful to white people to be denigrated for who they are…?

I already said it wasn't harmful to them, yes. But also, "White" is not an identity, as I have already said. It is a fucked up political category that serves to say, "these people are not any of the racialised categories". That's what I said at the start - it is only an exclusionary category. It does not identify any particular set of cultural or ethnic groups. There is no such thing as "white culture". There is Norwegian culture, British culture, Texan culture, etc, but no white culture. Black culture, on the other hand, very much does exist, because black people as a group have been forced to construct a culture in response to their racist oppression.

If society as a whole wasn’t horrifically anti-Black in its racism, would it then be okay to use anti-Black slurs? Because it wouldn’t be ‘especially harmful’?

Blackness as a concept was invented by racists for racist purposes. Anti-black slurs wouldn't exist without that, so you couldn't use them.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

I already said it wasn’t harmful to them, yes.

That's a fucked up thought.

. But also, “White” is not an identity, as I have already said. It is a fucked up political category that serves to say, “these people are not any of the racialised categories”. That’s what I said at the start - it is only an exclusionary category. It does not identify any particular set of cultural or ethnic groups. There is no such thing as “white culture”. There is Norwegian culture, British culture, Texan culture, etc, but no white culture. Black culture, on the other hand, very much does exist, because black people as a group have been forced to construct a culture in response to their racist oppression.

So as long as the category is artificial, you can denigrate ancestry all you want?

Blackness as a concept was invented by racists for racist purposes. Anti-black slurs wouldn’t exist without that, so you couldn’t use them.

You're dodging the question.

I'm done here. It's incredibly shitty, and left-spaces should really fucking know better. But hey. Mixed-race folk always get the short-end of the stick. Why should left-spaces be any different, right? Cracker signing off, I guess.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

It was an honest answer to the question, but I'll answer in a different way: yes, in the world you imagined, anti-black slurs would be fine because they wouldn't exist. It's telling that you had to basically turn the entire world of racial politics entirely upside-down to get to that conclusion.

In contrast - and this is a very simple concept - the term "cracker" doesn't hurt me in the slightest, and I'm the pastiest white person you ever did see. The fact it hurts you so badly shows you that the anti-white sentiment that exists in the discrimination you face specifically hurts you because you are not actually white.

You're here banging on about anti-white racism and you want to pretend you're on the left? Read a book.

EDIT: Start with an article at least: https://www.vu.edu.au/about-vu/news-events/news/what-is-reverse-racism-and-whats-wrong-with-the-term

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

In contrast - and this is a very simple concept - the term “cracker” doesn’t hurt me in the slightest, and I’m the pastiest white person you ever did see.

"It doesn't hurt me, therefore, it doesn't hurt anyone like me."

The fact it hurts you so badly shows you that the anti-white sentiment that exists in the discrimination you face specifically hurts you because you are not actually white.

Thank you for explaining my own experiences to me.

Fucking ridiculous. How did you put it before? "Whitesplaining"?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Oh okay, so let's listen to what other white people have to say on the matter.

According to that article that I already linked you and which you apparently didn't read:

A representative US survey, conducted by PEW in 2019, found that around 12% of respondents believed “being white hurts people’s ability to get ahead in the country nowadays”. Among white Republicans, the proportion was 22%. It was only 3% among white Democrats.

Reverse racism is such a fringe conservative belief that only a tiny minority of conservative white people even believe it, and amongst democrats it's barely more than a rounding error.

So only a tiny group of fringe reactionaries believe this bullshit, but here you are claiming it's supposed to be a leftist position.

That is fucking ridiculous.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

A representative US survey, conducted by PEW in 2019, found that around 12% of respondents believed “being white hurts people’s ability to get ahead in the country nowadays”.

Literally not even close to the issue I was addressing, but I've dealt with enough racists like you to know it's hopeless.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Fucking hilarious. You have to be intentionally missing the point here.

Also, be careful, because apparently pointing out racism is the real racism, and you accused me of "whitesplaining", so apparently you were being anti-white racist, which I hear you really care a lot about as an issue.

*Note for the mod who inevitably gets this as a disingenuous "racism" report, I am being sarcastic.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Also, be careful, because apparently pointing out racism is the real racism, and you accused me of “whitesplaining”, so apparently you were being anti-white racist, which I hear you really care a lot about as an issue.

If you couldn't read the bitterness in

Fucking ridiculous. How did you put it before? "Whitesplaining"?

I can't help you.

But anything to denigrate minorities who don't have your views., huh? People like you only listen when it fits your preconceptions.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You literally told me how this issue affects you as a mixed race person, and it clearly doesn't affect white people.

Either you can put that together or you can't. If you can't, it's because you don't want to. I'm done here.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

You literally told me how this issue affects you as a mixed race person,

And you literally didn't listen, instead opting to reiterate your own preconceptions on what mixed-race people experience and why.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

If there's anything I got wrong about what you were saying about your own experience, I would honestly like to understand.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

If that's sincere, I'll be happy to explain again.

Again, I must emphasize, I am by no means under the delusion that anti-white racism is anywhere near the scale or severity of anti-POC racism. In terms of resource allocation, there is an obvious and overwhelming preference towards which one needs to be fought. I, as someone who has experienced genuine emotional distress, am speaking as to the personal effects of racist behavior, specifically, slurs and othering, against whiteness, even (though not exclusively) when the person in question does not necessarily or primarily identify as white.

Calling people slurs based on their ancestry or socially constructed racial identification, 'actual' or perceived, is bad. Period. The N-bomb is worse than 'Jap', and 'Jap' is worse than 'cracker'. But none of them should be given a pass, and all are capable of creating an environment of othering and hostility.

You feel confident and secure, and so you don't feel racist slurs are capable of harming you - if so, great for you. I'm sure you grew up in either a great community (which there are many of!), or an overwhelmingly white one. That, however, does not reflect experiences universally, and many white kids (not even getting into biracial individuals) who've grown up in majority-nonwhite communities can attest that anti-white racism feels like shit. "In the greater scope of things, white people rule everything!" doesn't mean jack shit inside the context of individual communities, where our psyches reside and rely on for validation and sense of belonging. And those wounds don't go away when you emerge into a white majority society.

The sin in calling me an anti-white slur is not because I'm mixed-race. Being mixed-race just means I have nowhere to retreat from bigotry in general. If I escape anti-white bigotry, I'm inevitably exposed to anti-Asian bigotry - and if I try to escape from both, I am inevitably exposed to both. There is a great deal of racism inbetween POC communities.

For mixed-race people, often, there is an additional effect in that is that we feel invalidated in total by being denigrated by one of our racial origins. When someone calls me a cracker or like slur, I don't feel part-shitty, I feel 100% shitty. When you call a white person a cracker, it doesn't matter if you imply with a wink and a nudge that, OF COURSE you don't mean me, it still feels like shit just by fucking proxy. Yeah, I'm Asian. But I'm also white. Being called a cracker doesn't hurt me because I'm part-Asian. It hurts me because I am white. Apart from self-identification, as generally I have little interest in my whiteness except to recognize when it privileges and advantages me, there is the acute knowledge that others see you as such, that you are seen in some way, or in some degree, as deficient, grotesque, or inherently contemptible.

If I'm harassed for being white, do you think I feel only part-deficient? Part-contemptible? Do you think that I feel different about being harassed for being part-white because I'm also part-Asian? That if I was wholly contemptible instead of partially, it would feel better? Would I not feel othered if I was only white and being called a cracker? Considering the escalating racial hostility as children age and feed the mutual racial antipathy, and my own experiences talking with white friends, I doubt it. Just because "Oh, this won't matter when you look for a job or a promotion" is true doesn't mean "This isn't something that creates a deep and abiding rift between individuals and communities as a matter of rejection of people based on their innate and unchangeable qualities. This isn't something that creates psychological scars as attempts to refute or combat the accusations escalate against an unshifting bigotry and constant undercurrent of enmity."

The essential, degrading, othering, and hostile effect of calling someone else a slur based on their immutable characteristics is universally bad, and it's astounding to me that a left-wing culture that has (very positively!) become increasingly sensitive towards other issues of mental and emotional health, bullying, and self-esteem, seems so keen to overlook this. Much is said, and rightfully so, on the severe and lasting psychological effects of bigotry on individuals. Why is this bigotry excluded?

It's not a problem that needs a national campaign or a government program to address it. But it sure as shit shouldn't be dismissed or encouraged simply because it's not as important as the more significant and material effects of racism on POC.

I'm legitimately done now, because now I'm fucking depressed.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I genuinely appreciate your openness and I agree that what you've experienced is bigotry, it is othering abuse. Thanks, I understand it takes a lot to lay all that out and I don't take it lightly.

I cannot tell you that the trauma that you've experienced is lessened by who or what you are, and this is an issue that leftists should take seriously. I understand you face a unique intersection of discrimination, and that your whiteness has contributed to that.

I still have something to say about where we differ here, but I won't unless you tell me you want to hear it. I promise to be respectful regardless of what you decide.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

I appreciate your response, but... I'm not really in any condition to continue this conversation, sorry. You can state it if you wish, but I don't have it in me to respond at this point.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Okay, thanks for being open to hearing it. If you don't reply or you take a while I won't take that to mean anything in particular.

I accept that all of the things you've talked about are real forms of oppression. The difference here is that I don't agree that it should be called racism. That may seem like a tiny, semantic difference but I think it's important. When you say that it is on another level than the racism that POC face, I agree. It is a quantitative difference that amounts to a qualitative difference. I think it deserves to be addressed as its own unique phenomenon. I'm afraid I don't know what the name for that phenomenon is. I would be surprised if someone hadn't written about it. I'll keep an eye out for that.

I also understand that you're saying that hearing a phrase like "a very white way of thinking" feels othering to you. That makes sense, but I don't agree that the solution is to stop talking about the problems with whiteness. Whiteness as a concept hurts everyone. Of course it hurts POC more than it hurts white people, but it isn't a zero-sum game. White people in general aren't helped in any way by it. That's not what privilege means in this context. It means that the boot that stomps on us is less forceful and has smaller cleats. The point of calling some people white and others not is to divide people. That doesn't mean that attacking whiteness as a concept is divisive - it is attacking a mechanism of division. The point here is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by protecting the concept of whiteness.

We're not attacking individual people and saying they suck because they are white. It really isn't personal at all. The concept of whiteness is based on privilege, which means being able to ignore the suffering of people who were affected by genocide and who are still living. I think that's what they mean when they call it a very white way of thinking.

I don't know how to help you with your feelings on this issue. I'm sorry, I wish I had an answer for you on that but I just don't. If you're feeling hurt, that's always valid. However, dealing with and healing from that hurt requires correctly identifying its source, and it's easy to land on wrong answers to that question, and that's a large part of why I think this is important.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Guess I'm back for more.

I accept that all of the things you’ve talked about are real forms of oppression. The difference here is that I don’t agree that it should be called racism.

I'd dispute that it isn't racism, as application of sociological definition for the purpose of narrow and highly academic discussions with general usage, but that's not the primary problem here. I find what it's called less important than acknowledging in it. In this thread, there's a lot of "White people can't be hurt by being denigrated", not just denying that it's called racism. That's what hurts here. I look around here and all I see is hostility in what is a fairly left-space. I can quote people in this very thread quite clearly saying, "You're white. White is bad. Get over it."

I don’t agree that the solution is to stop talking about the problems with whiteness. Whiteness as a concept hurts everyone.

I'm not trying to protect the concept of whiteness or say that we should stop talking about white privilege. But when you denigrate 'white people', you are denigrating a group of people for their ancestry - full stop. It doesn't matter that you mean it in a different way than common usage. When you start describing things as 'white' you are necessarily adding an either positive or negative connotation to being 'white', which is something that is largely decided by society and observers, not your intentions.

Of course it hurts POC more than it hurts white people, but it isn’t a zero-sum game. White people in general aren’t helped in any way by it. That’s not what privilege means in this context. It means that the boot that stomps on us is less forceful and has smaller cleats.

At no point have I defended white privilege, man. White privilege can and should be overthrown. That's completely separate from the point here.

The point of calling some people white and others not is to divide people.

So was the point of calling people 'Black' - and if you dispute that, I have a whole laundry list of historical examples to go down that predate the creation of a cohesive and empowering sense of unified Black culture. Yet if you started associating negative qualities with 'Blackness' and objected "I'm not saying BLACK PEOPLE are bad, I'm just saying BLACKNESS is bad, which is a state of mind", I mean, fuck, that's outright 'racist uncle' shite.

Regardless of whether or not you like it, when you say 'white', a large number of people hear you addressing them, because that's how they're addressed by society, conservative and liberal; light-skinned and dark-skinned. When you say 'white', that refers to, by linguistic consensus, a very large group of people based on their racial origin, not their opinions or their recognition or lack thereof of their own privilege. And when you start assigning qualities to 'whiteness' itself, this context necessarily translates into a denigration of the individual by a denigration of an arbitrary group that has no inherent moral quality to it.

That doesn’t mean that attacking whiteness as a concept is divisive - it is attacking a mechanism of division. The point here is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by protecting the concept of whiteness.

Again. At no point have I defended the concept of whiteness. The entire concept of racial categories is absurd except as a social construct.

We’re not attacking individual people and saying they suck because they are white. It really isn’t personal at all. The concept of whiteness is based on privilege, which means being able to ignore the suffering of people who were affected by genocide and who are still living. I think that’s what they mean when they call it a very white way of thinking.

But white is pretty widely considered to be a category based on phenotype and cultural recognition of phenotype - it doesn't matter that you don't mean that individual people suck because they're white. It doesn't matter when some old coot calls something "cotton-pickin'" as a means of degrading it that he doesn't MEAN it in a racist way, or that he's not using it towards an individual, much less a Black individual. It is still generally heard by Black folk as a whole as denigrating. And no amount of "You just have to understand..." or "This isn't directed at you..." can change that.

However, dealing with and healing from that hurt requires correctly identifying its source, and it’s easy to land on wrong answers to that question, and that’s a large part of why I think this is important.

I think it's important too, which is why I take such issue with racializing positive and negative qualities, like points of view. Avoiding the idea that using racialized descriptors is bad simply because the core of modern racial categories is centered around the privilege of whiteness does not mean that racialized descriptors are innocent of implicit or explicit bigotry.

rikudou ,

it wouldn't scare me very much because I know that I have the privilege of being white

That's simple, that's because you're racist.

rikudou ,

It's almost like white is literally different to all those other racial categories.

Holy shit, how do you not see the racism in that statement?

livus ,

Pretty ironic though. That comment was in the context of talking about how easy it is for people to dismiss the abuse these Indigenous women went through.

Cue, an entire comment section that is mostly focussed on discussing whether white people feel attacked, than the decades of hell these women endured.

FMT99 ,

Which goes to show how you undermine your own important message if you lace it with your own racist language.

girlfreddy OP ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

White is not a race.

FMT99 ,

Then neither is black right? Race doesn't actually exist of course, the only race is human. But we like to put people in boxes so we came up with the white race and the black race and so on. Because we're all idiotic monkeys that love labels.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

All races are a social construct. But the fact that race is a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist and attitudes towards race doesn't affect people.

I want to live in a world where no one sees race. But that's not the world we live in. Pretending race doesn't exist is just ignoring problems and allowing them to persist.

Your attitude that white is not a race is the same attitude of those that want to pretend that "not seeing race" is an enlightened way of thinking when really they just want to ignore issues.

livus ,

I think you're right, but I think that undermining mostly happens because of skewed priorities.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

I just want to know that I'm at least fucking safe in left-spaces. I expect right-wing spaces to denigrate me. They're shitheads to begin with. But is it too much to ask that the issue of being part-white not lead into part of me being sneered at?

It's tiring, man. I just want it to end.

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