Then she chanted, "When people are occupied, resistance is justified" which in context is clearly in defense of October 7th, despite her denial.
Let's remember that the purpose of this protest was to stop Israel from defending themselves against their explicitly genocidal attackers via political pressure. Stopping Israel before they depose Hamas keeps Hamas in power.
Although she absolutely has the right to take controversial positions and peacefully protest, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. There is no right to anonymity when publicly protesting.
Israel has murdered at least 33,000 Palestinians, over 2/3 being civilians by their own count.
Collateral damage is not murder, nor are successful attacks against Hamas militants.
It's interesting you cite that figure as evidence of Israel's recklessness when it's actually an astonishing accomplishment that they got the civilian casualty ratio so low, especially considering Hamas hides among civilians in densely populated areas. The commonly cited average in modern war is ~90% civilian casualties. This seems to be evidence that the great lengths they go to to reduce civilian casualties are paying off, not evidence they are being reckless when it comes to civilians. You'd never know it from the protesters, or comments like yours though.
Hamas has not surrendered nor have they been deposed. That's when attacks would stop being self-defense.
Sadly, there are no magical munitions that don't cause collateral damage, nor is Israel infallible. They still have a right to self-defense and to eliminate the threat against them.
How exactly are they defending themselves by bombing areas full of children?
If your answer is "Hamas is there," well they were somehow able to raid a hospital without killing everyone inside it and still get a whole bunch of Hamas people, so maybe they should do that instead of dropping bombs on children.
If your answer is “Hamas is there,” well they were somehow able to raid a hospital without killing everyone inside it and still get a whole bunch of Hamas people, so maybe they should do that instead of dropping bombs on children.
As you acknowledge, they are targeting Hamas, who often attacks them while hiding in areas full of children. Going in without air support into a well prepared guerilla fighter's den is likely to cause a lot of casualties. Even though that is acceptable every now and then like in the hospital that does not imply that's a viable strategy for all of Gaza.
Hamas counts on this "think of the children!" and the bad PR it causes, that's why they do this. They also want Israel's hands to be bound so they can do Oct 7 over and over again.
The right move is to minimize civilian casualties but not stop until the job is done, and that's exactly what I believe Israel is doing.
According to a New York Times report, "Hamas has long been accused of using civilians as human shields and positioning underground bunkers, weapon depots and rocket launchers under or near schools, mosques and hospitals."[63]
DW military analyst Frank Ledwidge has said that "it's been described... as 'common knowledge' that many of the headquarters [of Hamas] are located under hospitals... [with] entries and exits in places like mosques or schools... [or even] UN facilities... that's why we've seen... so many non-combatant casualties so far".[64]
John Spencer has said that "[Hamas has] built many of their tunnel entrances and exits and passageway underneath protected sites like hospitals, schools, mosques, because it restricts the use of force that the IDF can take without going through the... laws of war calculation.[65]
According to Daphne Richemond-Barak, associate professor of counter-terrorism at Reichman University and author of the 2017 book Underground Warfare, Hamas militants operate under Al-Shifa Hospital gain "the highest level of protection available under the laws of war", as well as a "unique opportunity to operate far from surveillance drones, GPS, and other intelligence-gathering technology". She added that "in Gaza, tunnels are dug in civilian homes, pass under entire neighbourhoods, and lead into populated areas inside Israel... [which] enables Hamas to conceal entry and exit points, and facilitates undetected movement and activity."[66]
Avi Issacharoff has said that Hamas militants are "under the houses and neighborhoods of Gaza City, hoping that Israel won't attack them because they're hiding underneath human shields, and that if Israel will attack those neighborhoods, it'll kill many civilians, and the whole world is going to accuse Israel for war crimes". "The sad thing about all this", Issacharoff said, "is [that] Hamas doesn't care about their own people" and aims "not only to kill Israelis but for as many Palestinian civilians [casualties as well]".[67]
It's almost like starting a war when most of your population is children, then hiding among civilians and under schools endangers them. But I guess that's Israel's fault. Why can't they just send in soldiers without air support? They make easier targets that way.
If you're going to claim that Israel is killing children because Hamas is hiding in schools and there aren't schools, that's a really silly claim.
And if there were schools, you're claiming that Israel needs to bomb schools filled with children in self-defense. I don't know that you're going to find too many people sympathetic to that argument.
I sincerely hope you aren't a parent if you feel children are so disposable.
Also, if you have to kill children in the name of self-defense, maybe you don't have anything worth defending.
I'm saying using such despicable tactics is not a free genocide without reprisal card, nor should it confer a tactical advantage as that just means more of this in the future.
Collateral damage is not murder. I feel like a parrot having to refute all these same inaccurate characterizations over and over again. Calling it murder doesn't make it so.
Good thing you're not in charge of any defense forces. If your opponents strapped their own children to tanks I suppose you'd just let them roll in and take over.
It’s not a genocide because of collateral damage. It’s a genocide because they used wholly inappropriate 2000 lbs bombs on civilian targets, used starvation as a tactic, refused to let meaningful amounts of humanitarian aid in, bombed schools and hospitals, and used genocidal language that demonstrates intent.
Go ahead and defend Itamar Ben-Gvir if you want but he’s a Kahanist. Go ahead and defend Netanyahu but he’s the one who is a disgrace to Judaism and arguably the worst leader of a major power in my lifetime. War crimes have happened. Mass graves exist and torture prisons exist. Genocide requires intent and I’d argue there’s been dozens of statements by members of Israel’s cabinet that constitute a very strong case.
I am neither defending Ben-Gvir nor Netanyahu, they are both assholes and should be removed from power. What I'm defending is Israel's right to self-defense. (I'm not your strawman, stick to things I actually wrote, please.)
The alternative to using bombs is sending in troops without air support to a well-prepared guerilla den, suggesting Israel should sacrifice its own to protect civilians of a hostile nation, 72% of whom support the genocidal regime who attacked them.
The pro-pali crowd certainly likes to make this sound like they are starving out Gaza in a medieval siege but that isn't reality.
Said schools and hospitals were used as military assets by Hamas, making them into legal targets.
I read the statements SA submitted to the IJC, the most egregious quotes were from people who are not involved with running the IDF and waging this war (like Judeofascist Ben-Gvir and Amichai Eliyahu) and I do not believe they represent Israel as a whole, and as such they do not meet the standards for genocide. In fact Amichai got reprimanded for his statements. Many of the other quotes were taken out of context. (I did a deep dive on every quote cited a while back, which I would be happy to post here if you're interested.)
If torture prisons exist that's a good reason to prosecute Ben-Gvir of war crimes if such orders came from on high, and also any guards who break the law without CO approval. If war crimes have happened I approve of prosecuting everyone responsible. However, I see a lot of people accusing Israel of war crimes inappropriately.
Israel crossed the line from self defense into genocide when they started ruthlessly executing innocent civilians and aid workers. You cannot justify their bullshit.
Given that you have posted this comment and distinguished it by speaking as a mod, would you please cite external sources for the following claims in it:
Israel is executing (this implies intent, so there needs to be proof that it is deliberate) civilians and aid workers, who furthermore are innocent (i.e not combatory participants in any way).
I apologize if this comment seems confrontative, but as a moderator of another community on lemmy I feel thay we need to be held to a higher standard than the rest of our community members, particularly when using the "speak as moderator" feature, and particularly in a community such as world news, which (I hope) wants to have a basis in objectivity.
If you can not, or do not want to cite sources, I would very much appreciate keeping non-sourced controversial statements out of featured posts and "speak as moderator" comments. Simply making a second non-moderator comment and putting those statements there would suffice.
Do you want to discuss the over 500 incitements of genocide? When it comes to intent, Israel's intent has been documented more than most
Since the commencement of our investigative efforts on October 7th, 2023, Law for Palestine has meticulously amassed a compelling body of evidence exposing the proliferation of incitement to violence and genocidal intent perpetrated by Israeli officials and public figures, against Palestinians. Our documentation encompasses over 500 incitements of violence and genocidal incitement, appearing in the forms of social media posts, television interviews, and official statements from Israeli politicians, army personnel, journalists, and other influential personalities.
Hi and apologies for the late reply - /c/world@lemmy.world moderator @jordanlund removed my comment and gave me a temporary ban for the comment you replied to citing that it was "Pro-Israel propaganda".
First off, thank you for posting this link - and no, I'm not interested in discussing them. My point was that users should be held to a higher standard when posting as moderators than the rest of us.
I will however give a comment on the contents of the cited webpage. I read through the statements from decision makers (These seemed most relevant), and they did (in my personal view) not amount to intent. However, as law4palestine highlights:
The ultimate adjudication of this matter is contingent upon the determination of a competent court.
Personally, I want to see a full investigation by the ICJ conducted, and if they do end up with an indictment, those responsible brought to justice.
