The 91-year-old Republican suing to kick Donald Trump off the ballot ( wapo.st )

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

She thinks he's too young to be president.

silence7 OP , 4 months ago

A bit snarky, but it's over his insurrection:

“He tried to overturn an election,” she said. “The very first time I ever ran, I didn’t win. I didn’t go out and try to change the election. I said, ‘Whoops, work harder next time, lady.’”

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

I'd respect her for that except she's still a Republican voter.

silence7 OP , 4 months ago

It's possible to utterly disagree with somebody on policy, and still recognize that they've passed the 'not a traitor' bar. She manages that.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Yes. She manages to recognize that something that is true is true. Congratulations to her for being able to recognize reality on this specific topic but probably not any others since she's still a Republican.

silence7 OP , 4 months ago

I'd rather reinforce them when they do the right thing; it helps to shift the range of what's allowed on the right. Republicans are really good at love-bombing people who adopt one of their policy positions. We ought to think about the same.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

No, sorry. I do not praise Nazis for acknowledging that another Nazi was lying about an election that he obviously lost.

What do you think her opinion is on LGBT+ people if she votes Republican? Or on immigrants?

Did she vote for Cory Gardner in 2014? I bet she did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Gardner#LGBTQ_policy

I bet she also voted for Wayne Allard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Allard#Tenure

silence7 OP , 4 months ago

I don't doubt that she's terrible on a host of other issues; as I said, I likely disagree with her on almost every policy.

But praise when people start to move out of that mindset is part of how you detach people from it.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

You know, not every American Republican is a Nazi are they?

Would you want everyone to make the worst assumption about you based on one characteristic?

I don't like a lot of things about all the American parties.

It's like listening to mass media, everyone is a fascist, Nazi, communist, etc.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

As the saying goes, "if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you've got a table with 11 Nazis."

Rivalarrival , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

5 Jews, 3 blacks, 2 former klansmen, and a Nazi sitting at a table is an "intervention", not a table with 11 Nazis.

The idea that a Nazi infects everyone he comes into contact with and is utterly irredeemable is horseshit. The only way he stays a Nazi is if he never associates with anyone but Nazis. Your "11 Nazis" adage promotes isolating him among other Nazis, ensuring he is never exposed to any other philosophy.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Is that who you think the Republican Party is made up of?

Rivalarrival , 4 months ago

I think that a table with 10 people of diverse religious, genetic, and philosophical backgrounds, plus 1 Republican is not a table of 11 Republicans.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Okay, but this is a Republican who votes for other Republicans. So that doesn't sound especially diverse in terms of religion, genetics or philosophy.

Rivalarrival , 4 months ago

This is a Republican who is suing to kick Donald Trump off the ballot. Right now, that's good enough for me.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

I have voted for republicans, and Democrats. Am I a nazi?

I like @Rivalarrival analogy. That group is made up of a ton of different people, and I don't think they would all personally support each and every questionable BS policy proposed by the party. But we don't get that level of choice. Maybe if there was more groups/parties, or none at all, they would vote a different way. Maybe they aren't so much voting for things, but voting against something else.

I know people who won't vote for a party over one issue, otherwise they would consider it.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Did you vote for Republicans who agree with the modern Republican platform? If so, yes. You are. Because you vote for fascists who want to implement fascist policy. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

Which thing is so fascist?

Then I guess I could know who that was?

What's your definition of fascism in the context of American society? I saw your questions, but I don't know that those things are what the whole political party is about.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

You didn't answer my question.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

What about those of us who dislike both parties, but agree with select things from each?

Like being moderate, center, mild, or a republicrat?

There's no party that represents me. Only two groups of people whose ideas I mostly dislike, or that lack the compromise I feel would be necessary to do good.

I still don't think every Republican is evil, same for liberals, or progressive, or Democrats.

If everyone but your group is evil, you'll never get anywhere until you kill all the others. Sounds like Nazis to me?

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

What Republican things do you agree with?

The election was a fraud?

Corporations are people?

Climate change is a myth?

Women are lesser than men?

Slavery had benefits?

The rich deserve tax cuts?

Trans people need to be oppressed as do other LGBT+ people?

Foreigners are bad, especially the brown ones?

Private healthcare is the best form of healthcare?

The poor deserve to be?

Police are always to be respected no matter what (unless it's January 6th)?

Russia is a good ally?

The elderly don't need a break?

Hunter Biden's existence is proof that Joe Biden needs to be impeached?

We cannot allow the Democrats to give us what we want in an election year?

Seriously, what?

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

I'll play.

What Republican things do you agree with?
The election was a fraud?

Ha, right. Probably not. Didn't seem like any real evidence showed up. I compare this to the assertion that the U.S. government hid aliens from the world for the last ~70 years. That would be the only thing it ever did that well. So I'm in doubt the 'conspiracy' could even pull that off. In my opinion, those die hard trumper nuts are not representative of the majority of that whole party, but I can't point to data, just my experience with other people near me.

Corporations are people?

If they are, they're the greedy fat cat kind of people I don't like. I don't know anyone in the top tier of society like that. I would like to see legal protections from executives and corporations reduced, and more personal liability of corporate leaders. I'm not really sure if that's counter to their entire parties views. If corporate abuses could be better broken down and displayed for people, maybe more rightish people would center on the topic?

Climate change is a myth?

I only know people who disagree with the degree of how bad things are, I don't know any out right deniers. Again, I don't have a feel for an entire nationwide collection of people on that one.

Women are lesser than men?

How and why? I've never heard anyone actually put this into practice or policy. If you're blending with this abortion rights, then you have people who disagree on two different principles ( a person's choice vs people's believe in human life). I don't believe in taking away people's rights, but I also don't like killing babies (insert giant argument about when is a person a person, blah). If I can't have my God given right to drive drunk because it's dangerous for other people, then I also don't like abortion unless there's more reasons. This is way too complicated of a topic for a text conversation, but I think it's a main one for people thinking women don't get the right to make medical decisions about themselves. What else is there?

Slavery had benefits?

Again, who and why? I've never heard anyone actually say this. I don't think the vast majority of rightish people would ever think that. I've never met any.

The rich deserve tax cuts?

I wouldn't frame it like that. Excluding the mega wealthy and whatever that might mean to some, I get the impression most people just don't want to be overly taxed. Again, that's subjective, but highest tax bracket is 37% I think. That's a lot in my opinion. "But they have so much money, it won't affect their lives". Yep, I agree. I just don't think people want to be picked on if they feel they earned it. Did they, I don't know, maybe?

I'd be curious how many right voters earn more than 100K, because I don't think they would say they want tax cuts for 'rich' people. I don't have data on this. I'm curious.

Trans people need to be oppressed as do other LGBT+ people?

Yeah, that one's tough. Most of the conservative people I've heard in real life (not the villains on TV) range from indifferent to disapproving. They don't understand why all the noise and want people to be quiet and go away. One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist on this one. I wouldn't support policies that limit medical care, ownership, etc based on relationship status. I very much believe most conversative or rightish people that have harsh opinions of the trans issue have never met or had a real relationship with someone who struggled with identify, medal health, etc.

Ultimately, I might agree on this one that there's probably a large portion of people who identify as some kind of right don't have a lot of compassion for the letter communities.

Foreigners are bad, especially the brown ones?

That sounds like trump and bigots. Not sure about the whole. I can suggest a few ways to break that up though. There's a serious issue with immigration policy/system. Whether it's easy or hard is about the constraints we (government) put on it. I think rightish people want less imitation, sure. I am law and order supportive though. The border thing for some people is way more about groups of people intentionally not enforcing laws, picking an choosing. No one likes that, unless it suites them of course. It doesn't suite the right in this case, so they don't like it. I don't like it. I support immigration though. My great grandparents....etc. We need politicians elected that will compromise and change the legislation. I believe we also need border security, but it's not because I dislike 'brown' people.

If brown means middle-eastern, yeah, there's some phobia there. After a few extremist things, people gonna hate, rational or not. Not rational. I wonder how opinions of middle easterner goes across all the political aspects.

Private healthcare is the best form of healthcare?

Says people who have it. I'd like to see data on how many people per political party have health insurance. I'd guess people who never went without health care can't imagine/relate.

I feel like right party people more align with open/free market ideas and believe that's true.

The poor deserve to be?

Close, but no. I think that's flipping it again. I'm guessing there's a lower percentage of unemployed people claiming the right, based on 3 seconds of an LLM search. I assume people who've worked most of their lives and didn't struggle with some kind of mental health issues or other complicating factors that kept from them decent employment don't have compassion for people who have. They probably assume if you aren't working and earning a living, you're maybe lazy or made poor choices. I can see how you'd say that means they think poor people deserve it. I'm guessing they think everyone has a fair chance to succeed and just aren't. That's not the same as wanting people to stay gutter trash.

Police are always to be respected no matter what (unless it’s January 6th)?

How many people stored the capital? I've seen numbers on sites ranging from 20K to 120K. I don't know how many of them committed violence against law enforcement. one figure said there were 38 million registered republicans. I have no idea if that's even close, doesn't really matter if you compare that against 120K. I don't think the vast majority of republicans would have participated or condoned that. Those people in my opinion were extremists and trump worshipers. Cult people do crazy things. That's not the entire political party in my opinion.

Russia is a good ally?

Is that the whole party or Trump?

The elderly don’t need a break?

They've already gotten a break, like that hip. This seems overly generalized. Be more specific.

Hunter Biden’s existence is proof that Joe Biden needs to be impeached?

Same as the Dem party went after all of trumps associates. In both cases, I think they're (the people targeted by an opposing political party) shady at best, and corrupt mega criminals that should all be in prison at worst (best). I'd say that about a lots of politicians on both sides though. The republicans had a grand ol time trying to impeach Clinton. The Dems tried to Impeach Trump. Should yhey both have been impeached? Probably? Was it a huge political special and witch hunt, oh yeah. Both embarrassing for the nation and indicative of electing morally bankrupt or hypocrites, probably.

We cannot allow the Democrats to give us what we want in an election year?

I'm not sure what this means.

Personally, I think a huge portion of the problem is a lack of choice. This two party system is broken. Insert huge discussion about that here, and move on. So I think that leaves a huge portion of people in the middle, trying to chose between two groups of people who seems to have the loudest and most extreme members fighting for the most leadership in the group.

I fact that trump is becoming the leading right extremist blows my mind, and I think it's the movie ideocracy, but in real life. Maybe the other candidates were shitty, but come on. Ultimately, I don't know how many true trumpers there are, versus people who would vote for someone else. I guess if he wins the primary, then points/half?

Maybe the other more sane half would go with a viable third or fourth group?

Maybe outlaw groups/parties and just have candidates?

“Believing that all those who oppose us are inherently evil leads to a deadlock since you can't compromise with evil. It is only through understanding, compromise, and mutual respect that we can move forward and get things done.” - an LLM

For the downvoters, maybe time the time to write something instead of just doing a drive by. Say why you disagree since this is not a low effort comment.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Sure sounds to me like you either don't agree with their platform or don't understand the points on it.

So why do you vote for them?

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

I don't, not all of them. Unlike some, I don't push a D/R button. I cherry pick. If both candidates suck, I pass. Does it help or matter, no. My state votes red.

I won't personally push the button for someone I think is a piece of crap.

But, the point I was making is there's a range of politicians in these parties. Some chose a party affiliation out of necessity and funding, others are extremely polarized. I think there's both participants on both sides.

I think people vote for one of these two groups again out of a lack of choice.

I don't think all people who claim Republican are Nazis, fascists, etc. especially when you compare that's to historical instances of the past.

I also don't think all Democrats are communists, extremists etc, same.

I find most people want the same things, love, safety, material shit, etc. they differ widely on their greed levels, placing blame for their own problems or other people's issues, etc.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

You are really bad at answering questions.

You didn't explain why you voted for them.

Every time I ask you a question, you either ask me one back or act like I never asked you. But you don't answer mine.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

above:
https://infosec.pub/comment/6313165

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

You didn't answer some of my questions asking for more clarification on some of those issues. I'm curious.

Most of that I have to Google/lookup. Im around a ton of highly conservative or Republican claiming people, but I don't hear some of what you're talking about.

I also don't spend any time with actual politicians to know what they believe versus when they fall in line with party bs.

I wonder what removing funding from the political system would achieve. No more superpacs?

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

I didn't answer your questions because you didn't tell me which of those you agreed with. I'm still waiting to know.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

So why do you vote for them?

If I vote any republican stuffs, it usually because of these big or little issues:

• I usually align more with higher defense spending and certain military usage.
• I'm pretty conservative regarding abortion
• I support highest border security (which is not the same thing to me as immigration)
• I usually align more to republican foreign policy
• I want you to prove you're a citizen and have the right to vote in US elections
• My views on gun control. I want more controls, but not banning guns by type.
• I dislike the Russian invasion, but there's flipping on that.
• I dislike mandated diversity stuff. (Oh God, here we go. That doesn't mean I don't believe there's a problem with bias and such, I just don't think that fixes it. If it would have, it should be fixed by now. Also, I believe all people are the same/equal/human, so don't start down that road)

In some of these cases, I barely lean republican aligned. Or, I just disagree more with the Democratic parties view point/solution. That's why I don't have party affiliations. Me and trump aren't the same. I can't vote for any US presidential candidates this time, because I think they're both wrong. I have an extremely negative view of trump, I'll spare everyone. I don't want Biden either. I have lots of reasons for both of those I don't think people care about.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Looking forward to you continuing to avoid every question I ask you while you're at work too.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

Calm down mr sarcasm. I'm using some break time just for this.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

I usually align more with higher defense spending and certain military usage.

Neither party is against higher defense spending. Not a reason to vote Republican.

I’m pretty conservative regarding abortion

It's already illegal. How much more conservative can you get? If this is a reason to vote Republican, you must want to arrest women who have miscarriages just in case. Generally not a reason to vote Republican anymore.

I support highest border security

Republicans don't. They just killed their own border bill. Not a reason to vote Republican.

I usually align more to republican foreign policy

I notice you didn't say what policy that was. So I'm going to have to assume it's "aid Russia and Israel as much as possible" since that's their current foreign policy. Probably not a good reason to vote Republican.

I want you to prove you’re a citizen and have the right to vote in US elections

You mean the thing you've already had to do my entire 20+ years of voting in the U.S.? Not a reason to vote Republican.

My views on gun control. I want more controls, but not banning guns by type.

Republicans want zero controls. Zero. Not a reason to vote Republican.

I dislike the Russian invasion, but there’s flipping on that.

They haven't flipped on it so far. Not a reason to vote Republican.

I dislike mandated diversity stuff.

Please give an example and then explain what Republicans have done about it.

As far as I can tell, you have not given a single good reason to vote Republican.

So I'm still going with 'people who vote Republican support fascism' and I also notice you have no critique of their LGBT+ bigotry, which also makes me think the 'support fascism' thing applies.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

It’s already illegal. How much more conservative can you get? If this is a reason to vote Republican, you must want to arrest women who have miscarriages just in case. Generally not a reason to vote Republican anymore.

That's a terrible assumption of my stance on abortion. Keeping this super easy, I just don't like it. One party is against it, one is for it.

Republicans don’t. They just killed their own border bill. Not a reason to vote Republican.

Yeah, in this election, terrible political moves for party shenanigans over the general good. But surprise. Generally, the two parties won't compromise and fix immigration, so one tries to bypass the issue by not preventing crossing. The other tries to avoid fixing it by putting up a fence. The lesser of two evils for me until the policy gets fixed is a fence. Sorry. Like I said, I want immigration fixed, but until then...

“aid Russia and Israel as much as possible”

I assume you mean Ukraine? I want Ukraine supported, Rs did that until they got pissed about all the money/long. Not sure about Israel/Pal. Long term bad stuff over there I don't fully understand. I don't support mass killings of people in the streets, bombings, rockets, bulldozing people's houses, etc. That statement says I don't support either group since they've both been doing those things from what I can tell. Each's reasons why gets at the root causes, much bigger discussion.

There's more to it than those two recent conflict.

You mean the thing you’ve already had to do my entire 20+ years of voting in the U.S.? Not a reason to vote Republican.

Well, that's why I disagree with any political initiative to frame that as discrimination. It's not. Otherwise, driving, buying alcohol, renting cars, etc is also all discrimination because you have to have a driver's license. Some localities have worked to allow non-residents to vote. Doesn't make sense to me.

Republicans want zero controls. Zero. Not a reason to vote Republican.

Disagree. I think you missed the part about I disagree with eliminating guns as the main initiative. I would be more sided with the D party on guns if they would stop talking about banning assault riffles as one of the main fixes.

As far as I can tell, you have not given a single good reason to vote Republican.

Reason for you I guess. So far, you haven't given me any reason to think that every person who votes for that party is a fascist, hates women, hates poor people, etc.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

That’s a terrible assumption of my stance on abortion. Keeping this super easy, I just don’t like it. One party is against it, one is for it.

Again- this issue has already been decided. It is not a reason to vote Republican.

I assume you mean Ukraine?

I do not. If you don't even understand the very basic fact that Republicans have been on Russia's side for this entire conflict, you are very politically naïve.

Well, that’s why I disagree with any political initiative to frame that as discrimination. It’s not. Otherwise, driving, buying alcohol, renting cars, etc is also all discrimination because you have to have a driver’s license.

Oh, you mean the thing you have to have when you register to vote? Like I said, same thing for my entire 20+ years of voting. Have you never actually registered to vote?

Disagree.

You can disagree that Republicans want zero gun regulations, but unless you can name a few, your disagreement is moot.

You still haven't given me a good reason for you to vote Republican.

you haven’t given me any reason to think that every person who votes for that party is a fascist, hates women, hates poor people, etc.

I didn't say they were. I said they supported people who are. Which makes them just as bad. And makes you just as bad for supporting them too, especially since you have not given one single rational reason to support them and several highly irrational explanations.

Also, you still have said nothing about the hateful, bigoted Republican position on LGBT+ people, which makes me think you agree with it.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

Well, I guess we are in disagreement. - Kevin/Brooklyn 99

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

bigoted Republican position on LGBT+ people, which makes me think you agree with it.

and absolutely not.

Trans people need to be oppressed as do other LGBT+ people?

Yeah, that one’s tough. Most of the conservative people I’ve heard in real life (not the villains on TV) range from indifferent to disapproving. They don’t understand why all the noise and want people to be quiet and go away. One person’s freedom fighter is another’s terrorist on this one. I wouldn’t support policies that limit medical care, ownership, etc based on relationship status. I very much believe most conversative or rightish people that have harsh opinions of the trans issue have never met or had a real relationship with someone who struggled with identify, medal health, etc.

Trans people need to be oppressed as do other LGBT+ people?

Yeah, that one’s tough. Most of the conservative people I’ve heard in real life (not the villains on TV) range from indifferent to disapproving. They don’t understand why all the noise and want people to be quiet and go away. One person’s freedom fighter is another’s terrorist on this one. I wouldn’t support policies that limit medical care, ownership, etc based on relationship status. I very much believe most conversative or rightish people that have harsh opinions of the trans issue have never met or had a real relationship with someone who struggled with identify, medal health, etc.

Some are bigots for sure, cake lady comes to mind. Again, if every person ever who claims republican is a community hating bigot, then every (minority/non-white) is a (stereotype/criminal/inflammatory statement).

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

I see, you just vote for bigots who hate LGBT+ people and want to oppress them.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

Sorry, lastly:

This conversation being geared towards: (why vote for some things aligned with republican?) also omits all the things that would likely align with American democratic party, and personal beliefs and opinions that expand on why. Those things reveal life experience, compassion, empathy, compromise, etc. None of that is represented in a single what do you agree with exchange. Making the whole thing relate back to why a republican lady doesn't like trump. It's also why I don't judge people soley on which button they push (d/r).

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

And, again, if you vote for the party that wants to oppress LGBT+ people- and they do-, I will judge you.

But let me know about the Republican you've voted for that champions the rights of LGBT+ people. Name them please.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

Low effort research:

That's one reason why as co-chair of Conservatives Against Discrimination, I teamed up with Centerline Action to conduct research and mobilize Republican members of Congress last year to support the passage of the RMA. Recent research from Centerline has found that nearly three-fourths (72 percent) of registered voters agree that same-sex marriage should remain legal, with a majority (56 percent) of Republicans saying the same. More than half (55 percent) of self-described Trump Republicans believe the same. Further, two-thirds (66 percent) of voters say the government should be doing more "to combat discrimination against gay and transgender Americans."

I guess we could look up the vote results from 2022.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Since I asked you to name the Republicans you have voted for who were pro-LGBT+, does this mean you voted for Ileana Ros-Lehtinen at some point between 1989 and 2019 or did you not actually bother reading what I responded to you with again?

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

Your attitude is poor, or at least your assumption is inaccurate. I understand you want me to admit I haven't personally voted for a politician based on their stance regarding that issue. Why? If I haven't personally voted for someone because they supported that topic, then I hate people and am an bigot?

I did read it. The point was that there were a lot more supporters in the party, meaning they don't all hate a group of people based on bigotry. Some at least try, that's better than rounding them all up in camps as fascist governments might do to a group they want to exterminate.

I'm limited to the people I'm presented with.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

In other words, you can't name one single Republican you've voted for that wasn't an anti-LGBT+ bigot.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

One of my senators supported the marriage act and voted for it, the other didn't. I don't know them personally, but at least one was for it.

I'm not sure if he hates an entire group of people or not. I don't like that they won't just support it, treat people as the same, and get the whole thing put to bed.

I'd love to support a different senator who had proper values about this specific topic, but didn't also contrast with other topics.

Why does this matter? Do you think my voting decision affects over generalizing a whole group?

Clearly there is division amount that party where some are not bogits.

Sometimes things aren't all or nothing.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

I have given you three chances to provide me with a single name of any Republican you voted for that was not an anti-LGBT+ bigot.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/a98b80a7-2ecb-42d7-a9f6-833d6dbb0197.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fc234d89-6496-4fdb-bb83-a6845c44353e.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/0af91c65-56de-47b7-9af2-4bbfb703da21.png

You haven't done so.

You are not conversing in good faith and I think it's obvious why.

Thank you for proving my point.

I think we're done here.

MSgtRedFox , 4 months ago

What about Islamic religion? Are they bigots? There's a proper way to beat your wife constructively and lovingly.

Are they bigots?

They don't like community people either. I think they kill them? I watched a video of a group of them cutting the heads off two guys over bigot views.

Would rather have mild Republican bigotry then murder I guess.

I'm curious though if that's all of them, or some of them? All one political party,.or some?

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

Even now you won't give one single name of a non-bigoted Republican you have voted for. And it should be very obvious why that is. And why you vote for them anyway. Which makes you as bad as them.

Thanks for proving my point.

Goodbye.

lolcatnip , 4 months ago

I know what Republicans stand for. You can't blame "the media" for that. Well, you can, but you'd be fool to blame anyone but Republicans themselves.

acceptable_pumpkin , 4 months ago

And again it’s a former representative. Where are the current Republicans fighting this?

TokenBoomer , 4 months ago

You still got it.

FlyingSquid , 4 months ago

As Chico Marx said, "and you can keep it."

But thank you. :)