'but why are you only complaining about DEMOCRATS?' ( midwest.social )

It's educate, AGITATE, organize

edit: putting this at the top so people understand the basis for this:

You may well ask: “Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn’t negotiation a better path?” You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.

Letter from Birmingham, MLK

paysrenttobirds ,

This starts with an opponent who agrees with you in principle--that's Democrats. This has no advice for you if a Republican is in office. Yes, criticize Dems, ignore Republicans, and vote for the party you have hope of moving, even against their will, or over the bodies of their leaders.

givesomefucks ,

What's more ridiculous is when the so called "moderates" only criticize progressives and never conservatives.

Like, one side wants full on fascism, the other wants healthcare instead of genocide...

If you're "in the middle" of those two groups, and you spend more time fighting for genocide and against healthcare than you do fighting the fascists...

That says a lot about your personal values.

It makes sense for both ends to work thru the middle. Which is of course why republicans skip the middle and attack the far left with moderates.

It's a 2-1 fight, has been since before they united to stop FDR from getting us universal healthcare 80 some years ago.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It’s a 2-1 fight, has been since before they united to stop FDR from getting us universal healthcare 80 some years ago.

Oh, please. FDR would be derided as a right-wing capitalist pig in the pockets of Big Corporations by the same people agitating today.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Fuck too, love that guy

HauntedCupcake ,

I think a lot of it is that we're in a group of people who are almost entirely left of the dems. Republican ideas are (rightfully) downvoted into oblivion and never seen. That leaves the only arguments being seen as within the left.

It's made worse by those on the left actually thinking and not just towing the party line, which leads to more fractures and disagreement. It's not a bad thing that people disagree with "progressives", it's a sign that the left in general isn't a pseudo-religious hivemind.

What do you want a group of leftists to talk about? Homophobia bad? Trans rights good? Billionaires bad? Public healthcare good?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

"Cool, what form does your agitation come in?"

"Encouraging apathy, and demonization of the only non-fascist candidate with a chance to win without suggestion of realistic alternatives"

StinkyOnions ,

Most "agitators" on here can't even vote.

HuntressHimbo ,

Discourage apathy by putting your fingers in your ears and shout about how impossible making any positive change is instead!

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

"Changing 50 years of foreign policy on an issue most American voters don't regard as important (however horrific that is) isn't going to happen because the left-wing is threatening to let a fascist take power; that's literally the opposite of the scenario that should be happening for improvement"

archomrade OP ,

most American voters don’t regard as important (however horrific that is)

This is quite literally the thing we're trying to change.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Reasonably speaking - how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to switch the primary issues of concern for the American electorate from domestic security (including the safety of LGBT folks, immigrants, and democracy itself) and economics (at a time when many are pressed hard by the current economic situation) to foreign policy?

archomrade OP ,

Treating this as an honest question - by raising the issue so that it can't easily be ignored.

Just gonna put this here, because MLK says it better than I can:

Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.

Letter from Birmingham - MLK

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

That presumes that the issues you're raising are going to raise tension above the tension of the aforementioned issues, which is extremely unlikely in the current circumstances.

My point isn't "STOP RAISING AWARENESS", my point is "This is not the winning issue you think it can be; and threatening to hand power over to fascists if you don't get your way is just going to hand over power to fascists"

archomrade OP ,

“This is not the winning issue you think it can be; and threatening to hand power over to fascists if you don’t get your way is just going to hand over power to fascists”

This is a contradictory statement.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Fucking what

archomrade OP ,

It can't both be

  • a losing issue
    and
  • an issue that threatens to let fascists win

Either pushing this issue threatens the democratic base of support or nobody cares enough about this issue to make it a winning one.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It can’t both be

a losing issue and

an issue that threatens to let fascists win

what the fuck

That...

that's exactly why it IS a losing issue

This isn't some fucking game, where the sides are 'balanced' or someshit.

We run in a system where victories are decided by a fraction of a fucking percentage point.

archomrade OP ,

Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue.

I'm just going to keep quoting this back to you.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Uh, okay, you have fun with not understanding the difference between social change and an election coming up in a handful of months with tensions over key issues already sky-high, and 'Foreign Policy tension' being pretty fucking unlikely to top or come close to any of them regardless of how loud you make "Genocide Joe" chants.

archomrade OP ,

Then it shouldnt be of any concern to you that I continue agitating it.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It shouldn't be any concern to me that you're agitating on an issue that can't possibly win us the election, but can very possibly lose us the election?

archomrade OP ,

you’re agitating on an issue that can’t possibly win us the election, but can very possibly lose us the election?

"[...]create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue."

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Negotiations only work when there is something that both sides can agree on exchanging, and refusing a deal offered, even a poor one ("I will condemn Israeli genocide but not make any actions against it"), is only viable insofar as you're willing to accept the alternative ("I will give Israel everything it wants and more, and also I will commit genocide here, and also you can look forward to never having a real election again").

archomrade OP ,

Except, at least on paper, we all agree that there is a resolution that would be acceptable to both parties.

I suspect (as do many other leftists who have a more cynical view of american imperialism than you do) that Biden is well aware of what the right thing to do is, but doesn't want to be the one to give up the benefits of having Israel as a foothold in the middle east and is willing to accept a genocide in order to keep it.

If Biden ever made a strong case publicly on why Israel is such an important ally that we should ignore their atrocities, it would be impossible for any of us to miss it. I think we haven't seen that case being made because nobody who believes in the benevolence of the US would be happy with it.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Except, at least on paper, we all agree that there is a resolution that would be acceptable to both parties.

The two-state solution that the Biden administration has confirmed is the desired solution?

I suspect (as do many other leftists who have a more cynical view of american imperialism than you do) that Biden is well aware of what the right thing to do is, but doesn’t want to be the one to give up the benefits of having Israel as a foothold in the middle east and is willing to accept a genocide in order to keep it.

"the benefits of having Israel as a foothold in the middle east"

This line is trotted out all the fucking time by both Zionists and anti-Zionists, and yet it has not one lick of fucking truth to it.

Israel isn't a good ally. They aren't even a mediocre ally. They're a pariah state we play human shield for because a third of the electorate is high on Israel's propaganda that it's pumped in for the past forty years, and a third is high on religious eschatology.

If Biden ever made a strong case publicly on why Israel is such an important ally that we should ignore their atrocities, it would be impossible for any of us to miss it.

Biden has made the case, publicly, that Israel's atrocities do not rise to the level of being worth being stripped of aid, for political, diplomatic, and security reasons. It's a stupid case, but it is a case.

archomrade OP ,

Israel isn’t a good ally. They aren’t even a mediocre ally. They’re a pariah state we play human shield for because a third of the electorate is high on Israel’s propaganda that it’s pumped in for the past forty years, and a third is high on religious eschatology.

I completely agree, but I imagine we probably disagree about who is propagandizing for israeli support. I don't think it's a baseless accusation to suggest the US stands to gain something from the relationship, and suggesting otherwise is a little strange considering just how robust that support is. Biden himself said if Israel didn't exist, the US would create one to advance her interests in the Middle East. I'm assuming that didn't come out of nowhere.

Biden has made the case, publicly, that Israel’s atrocities do not rise to the level of being worth being stripped of aid, for political, diplomatic, and security reasons. It’s a stupid case, but it is a case.

Then someone should be pushing him to make a stronger one, either way, before he loses the election to an issue he seems to not have a compelling response to.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think it’s a baseless accusation to suggest the US stands to gain something from the relationship, and suggesting otherwise is a little strange considering just how robust that support is.

Iron law of institutions. Institutions don't do what benefit the institution's hold on power; institutions do what benefits the decision-makers' hold on power. The US supports Israel because Israel can swing elections, especially Republican primaries and close elections, in favor of pro-Israel forces. For that reason, most politicians have become pro-Israel. It also creates a feedback loop - politicians feed pro-Israel sentiment because they are (now) on the record as pro-Israel, and need as many voters as possible to be onboard with that.

I’m assuming that didn’t come out of nowhere.

It didn't. It came out of Israeli funding combined with evangelical ascendance into politics in the 80s. We were ambiguous at best in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, and only mildly supportive of Israel in the 70s.

archomrade OP ,

Institutions don’t do what benefit the institution’s hold on power; institutions do what benefits the decision-makers’ hold on power.

This would be more compelling if it were just Biden perpetuating that relationship, but it (seemingly) exists throughout the entire institution, from individual polititions to the state department to educational institutions to media conglomerates. My own inclination is to view it as a self-perpetuating system, rather than a per-decision-maker issue. The more persistent a trait is in a system (despite obvious challenges to that trait), the more likely I think it is that the issue doesn't exist at the individual level but at the level of the institution itself. Most people I discuss this with here seem to agree that there are substantial benefits for the US to have an iron-clad ally in the ME, i'm curious what you think of those suggestions? Namely that the US (through israel) maintains influence over the red sea as well as major oil and gas pipelines that traverse the area.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

This would be more compelling if it were just Biden perpetuating that relationship, but it (seemingly) exists throughout the entire institution, from individual polititions to the state department to educational institutions to media conglomerates.

Politicians dictate the priorities of the state department and educational institutions, and media conglomerates are generally controlled by right-wing shitbags. Politicians are the decisionmakers I'm talking about.

My own inclination is to view it as a self-perpetuating system, rather than a per-decision-maker issue. The more persistent a trait is in a system (despite obvious challenges to that trait), the more likely I think it is that the issue doesn’t exist at the individual level but at the level of the institution itself

Then your own argument is damaged by the fact that US support of Israel wasn't significant until the 80s.

Most people I discuss this with here seem to agree that there are substantial benefits for the US to have an iron-clad ally in the ME, i’m curious what you think of those suggestions? Namely that the US (through israel) maintains influence over the red sea as well as major oil and gas pipelines that traverse the area.

It's bull. Israel, as we've seen lately, isn't an iron-clad ally, and never has been. It doesn't give one whit about US objections or interests, to the point of openly mocking and manipulating US politicians and institutions. Why would Israel be more important in that sense than Egypt? Egypt, unlike Israel, doesn't dome our citizens for the crime of being a journalist near Gaza, doesn't sell our technology to the CCP, doesn't feed info to Russia, doesn't crater our international reputation at every turn, doesn't sabotage our foreign affairs, doesn't manipulate our domestic politics, etc etc etc.

Israel is supported because Israeli money and propaganda have made pro-Israel forces in the US much stronger, electorally, than they would have been otherwise; and because a third of the fucking country thinks Israel is God's Chosen Country and must be supported for the end times to come about (this being something that they WANT).

archomrade OP ,

Israel is supported because Israeli money and propaganda have made pro-Israel forces in the US much stronger, electorally, than they would have been otherwise; and because a third of the fucking country thinks Israel is God’s Chosen Country and must be supported for the end times to come about (this being something that they WANT).

This sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy, but setting that aside for a second (because I acknowledge that a lot of issues are determined by financial contributions), wouldn't this be a very compelling reason why we should be creating a crisis against letting this campaign continue? If you're arguing (like I think you are..?) that we should permit our politicians to continue supporting a genocidal fascistic state simply because they can afford to contribute more to our political system than we can to buy their vote, how is that not an apathetic stance?

Frankly, this is a frightening way to look at american democracy, and i'll say the same to you that i'd say to anyone else feeling this apathetic: you don't have to accept this reality alone. We can fight against it together.

I'm sorry we butt heads so often, I really think we could both benefit if we worked together but you at least need to acknowledge that the problem isn't impossible to overcome.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

This sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy,

It's not a conspiracy. It's smart practice, honestly. It's why there's a Turkish lobby and Saudi lobby with outsized influence in the US as well. Knowing how one of the world's most foremost powers works is integral to extracting concessions from them. The issue is that:

  1. Israel's only real ally is the US, so all of their focus is on maintaining support there

  2. There's a pre-founded base of evangelical nutjobs to bolster it

  3. Israel is immoral as fuck

but setting that aside for a second (because I acknowledge that a lot of issues are determined by financial contributions), wouldn’t this be a very compelling reason why we should be creating a crisis against letting this campaign continue?

That would be more compelling, except when you play chicken, you have to be ready to swerve (and let everyone know you aren't willing to stand for what you say you will), or be hit. Starting a crisis now, demanding concessions in exchange for your vote, is necessarily playing chicken.

Swerving will tell the politicians that they can ignore all of your future protests on the matter, because you'll just swerve in the end (and that's assuming you don't accidentally convince the majority of people to stay until they're hit, or swerve too late, or if the train hits the brakes too late).

And if you regard being 'hit' as an acceptable alternative - in this case, that's fascism. If you're willing to be hit rather than swerve, own up to it - but don't you dare tapdance around it, trying to obscure the very pertinent point that being hit is, in this case, a very bad fucking end.

If you’re arguing (like I think you are…?) that we should permit our politicians to continue supporting a genocidal fascistic state simply because they can afford to contribute more to our political system than we can to buy their vote, how is that not an apathetic stance?

My point isn't that we should permit it. My point is just that Israel is not a good ally.

Separate to that point is that fascism is not a realistic alternative, and this is one of the worst elections we've had with regards to fascist vs. antifascist opposition.

Biden isn't popular and charismatic like Obama or Bill Clinton were. He's not riding an overwhelming tide of antifascism to victory at the polls. His opponent isn't some milquetoast corporate drone like Romney or even a neocon shithead like Bush Jr. Trump is an out-and-out fascist who tried the first autocoup in US history - and very openly talks about how much MORE of a fascist he'd love to be. What's more, his party is behind him in lockstep.

This is literal fucking fascism we're up against, here, now, in the next few months. "I think it's bad that Israel manipulates our politics" takes a distant second-place to the concern of "Jesus fucking Christ, the next four years could be the end of what democracy we do have, as well as genocide and/or oppression for millions of others."

I've been shouting myself hoarse about the Israel lobby for years. I still shout about it. I just am willing to work with a pro-Israeli politician like Biden to stop literal fucking fascism.

Frankly, this is a frightening way to look at american democracy, and i’ll say the same to you that i’d say to anyone else feeling this apathetic: you don’t have to accept this reality alone. We can fight against it together.

It's not apathy. I care deeply about American democracy. But that means recognizing its flaws and weaknesses. Lobbying is a powerful tool used to great effect. There are methods that can be used to reduce this - and none of them are peddled by the GOP or Trump.

I’m sorry we butt heads so often, I really think we could both benefit if we worked together but you at least need to acknowledge that the problem isn’t impossible to overcome.

I don't think you inherently argue in bad faith, but I think you amplify the arguments of bad faith actors who spread these kinds of arguments, because the argument of these actors appeal to the desire to keep one's hands clean.

But there is no keeping one's hands clean in politics. "To rule innocently is madness", as Robespierre once said. We, as voters, all sully our hands with the actions of our representatives, both in action and inaction. When we vote for Biden, assuming he doesn't change his position, we sully our hands with his support of the Israeli genocide. But when we fail to put Biden back into office, we sully our hands with Trump's support for the Israeli genocide and all of the other atrocities he has in mind. There are no good choices - we must do what we can with what we have. Playing purity test or "I won't be held hostage by the lesser evil!" is just sullying our hands with the greater evil because we don't want to deal with reality.

archomrade OP ,

I don't want to burn any goodwill we might have built here, so I'm not going to pick out the few things here I disagree with just to keep it going.

I basically believe that Biden can't win with this position, and agitating him to change it is the only thing I can do from where I am to fix that. I hope I'm wrong.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Biden isn't guaranteed a win regardless of what position he takes on the current genocide, so while I support the pro-Palestine protests, I am adamantly against anyone who wants to use withholding their vote as a 'threat' to Biden, which is tantamount to saying "Change your policy to my preferred policy, or I let the fascists win", which is kind of antithetical to the idea of a coalition candidate.

bobburger ,

I'll try to clear it up a little.

Here's a recent poll showing that support for ending the invasion into Gaza isn't widely supported

There's a lot of risk to Biden's election chances if he withdraws his support for Israel, probably more risk than if he maintains his current actions. So withdrawing his support for Israel isn't the clear cut winning decision that you seem to think it is.

Your threat of withholding your vote for Joe Biden unless he changes policy to match what you want will most likely result in Joe Biden losing the election. If he changes course and withdraws support as you want then he'll probably lose more voters than he gains, costing him he election. If he stays the course and you don't vote for Joe Biden he's likely to lose the election.

HuntressHimbo ,

Yes and you've decided that rather than try and change their minds you'll just write off Palestine and sit around waiting for another five months. Or sorry not even that, you've decided that you're going to scream at the people who are going to try and call them Trump supporters.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, sorry that my issue of first concern is stopping a genocide here, in the US, which is very likely to happen in case of a very-probable Trump presidency, instead of [checks notes] completely reversing the entire US establishment and Democratic Party (with their razor-thin majority in the Senate and literal minority in the House) in the next 5 months over an issue most voters are simply not that concerned with to remove all aid from Israel, which will [checks notes again] not actually stop Israel's policy of continued genocide.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Different guy, different perspective.

Never once have I ever said we should stop all support of Israel, I think we should give them all the iron dome missiles they want, but that is it.

Let them have their best self defense weapon, god knows it will save some kids from a whackadoo with a rocket launcher.

Hell, if we have anything to do with arrow, or whatever the other one is, I want to say David’s sling, but that is probably wrong, give them all they want of those as well.

Whoever makes those missiles deserves the money for them.

You seem to be trying to take this to an extreme when there a ton of us that just want a more moderate solution.

Fucking set up real places for these people, an actual safe place with shelter, food, water, and medical, including therapy, especially for those kids.

Surround the motherfucker with a wall and a deadline, but use someone smart enough to know not to kill a kid that wanders in there.

Put livestream cameras on every inch that isn’t private.

People can only do so much in a tent city under tight surveillance.

Vet the people as they come in with both a terrorist list and tsa body scanners.

Whoever builds that is the fucking hero, safety, food, and starting to tear down all of the psychological issues that would save them so many problems later on.

Also put that motherfucker under iron dome protection, that way no one can bomb it, accidentally or otherwise, without it being obvious.

The us military is the most effective logistical team on earth.

I doubt you could find someone more effective at setting up ad-how shelter in a desert environment, while also keeping it safe.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Never once have I ever said we should stop all support of Israel

You seem to be trying to take this to an extreme when there a ton of us that just want a more moderate solution.

Man, I'VE said we should do so. It's not a question of how extreme I want the US's response to Israel to be.

The difference in extremes is in what I think is reasonable to push that view; I'm very aware that it's not something that is just 'demanded' six months before an election, and that playing chicken with my vote, or trying to convince other people to play chicken with their's, is a great way to get hit by a freight train of fascism in this election.

OneWomanCreamTeam ,
@OneWomanCreamTeam@sh.itjust.works avatar

Putting your fingers in your ears to drown out the sound of the Overton window screeching to the right is a much better alternative.

archomrade OP ,

https://midwest.social/pictrs/image/97516671-76c4-423a-992d-b5e8d66973b6.png

archomrade OP ,

If I were encouraging apathy, I'd be trying to get people to ignore an important issue by arguing 'change simply isn't realistic so it's better to just shut your eyes to it'

themeatbridge ,

Sorry, but what are you encouraging then? Like, what's the ask?

Nougat ,

OP's only ask is "feel bad enough about Biden and the Democrats to stay home in November." That's it. That's the whole thing.

themeatbridge ,

I just noticed the username, and I've argued with this guy before. You're spot on, he does not have a sincere argument.

archomrade OP ,

See my response to themeatbridge.

archomrade OP ,

The goal is to stop democrats from continuing to support a genocide (min) and a genocidal project (max)

The route is through moderates, who would really like to not talk about this issue, because while it is something they agree with, pointing to something bad that they are contributing to threatens to weaken their voting base. Any political agitation necessarily implicitly makes that threat, and it's intentional, because otherwise the moderate would have no reason to push for it.

Nougat ,

So your aim is only to cast aspersions on Democrats, got it.

Surely you're aware of the two-party system of politics in the United States, one where if Democrats lose, Republicans win, and those Republicans will do the genocide you claim to hate so much even harder, not to mention royally fucking things up for huge swaths of people domestically, handing Ukraine over to Russia (which extends to directly threatening the rest of Europe/NATO), and walking away from Taiwan, for starters.

You don't want to "end genocide," you want to get Republicans elected.

archomrade OP ,

So your aim is only to cast aspersions on Democrats, got it.

Because they are the ones who claim to agree, but apparently lack sufficient motivation to stop obstructing progress.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

but apparently lack sufficient motivation to stop obstructing progress.

"Yeah, a fascist victory will motivate those fuckers! Take that, moderates! Maybe next election you'll-"

archomrade OP ,

If agitating this issue is enough to make that threat real then it's enough for them to address it. It's that simple.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Address it... how? By swapping their position and losing even more votes from those with a pro-Israel position?

archomrade OP ,

By swapping their position and losing even more votes from those with a pro-Israel position?

Either by swapping their position and making their case to those who disagree with it,

or

keeping their position and attempt justifying it to those who disagree with it

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

keeping their position and attempt justifying it to those who disagree with it

The fuck do you think they've been doing.

archomrade OP ,

Nothing particularly convincing to anyone paying attention.

I have yet to hear their justification on ignoring the war crimes committed by an ally. I'll happily ruminate on it if I did.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Nothing particularly convincing to anyone paying attention.

Okay, so they are doing what you want them too, you just still don't like it enough to work to stop fascism.

archomrade OP ,

I (quite loudly) disagree with what you say constitutes 'working to stop fascism'. And I will continue voicing that disagreement loudly until that changes.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, you quite loudly disagree with the idea that working to stop a fascist from getting into power is 'working to stop fascism'. It very much highlights where your priorities are.

archomrade OP ,

you quite loudly disagree with the idea that working to stop a fascist from getting into power is ‘working to stop fascism’

Almost, I disagree that working to stop fascism entails supporting them while they commit atrocities abroad

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

What else will you not support the opposition to fascism over? What other matters do you regard as more important than opposing fascism?

archomrade OP ,

What other matters do you regard as more important than opposing fascism?

There is NO issue more important than opposing fascism, THAT'S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD BE OPPOSING FASCISM IN GAZA

Nougat ,

"I oppose fascism in Gaza by enabling more fascism in the United States!"

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

There is NO issue more important than opposing fascism

Except foreign affairs, it would seem.

THAT’S WHY I THINK WE SHOULD BE OPPOSING FASCISM IN GAZA

Damn, you want us to go to war with Hamas AND Israel? I thought we were done with nation-building.

Or is what you mean "We should make a show of opposing fascism in Gaza"? In which case the only difference between your position and Biden's is one of degrees.

archomrade OP ,

Damn, you want us to go to war with Hamas AND Israel? I thought we were done with nation-building.

We we certainly shouldn't be supplying material support for an active genocide, that seems like a pretty obvious red flag to most people. Going to war ourselves is a stretch, but not obstructing an ICC arrest warrant and recognizing Palestinian statehood at the UN seem like other common-sense positions that fall well short of going to war, but what do I know about what it is you think?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

We we certainly shouldn’t be supplying material support for an active genocide, that seems like a pretty obvious red flag to most people.

So material support for an active genocide (a lot of qualifiers there) is your absolute line? If any presidential candidate crosses that line, you won't work with them against literal fascists?

archomrade OP ,

If any presidential candidate crosses that line, you won’t work with them against literal fascists?

Why are you posing this as a binary? I can BOTH work with them against literal fascists AND agitate them to drop support for a literal fascist. Voting is such a small part of this picture, and it's also the only part of it that's binary.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Why are you posing this as a binary? I can BOTH work with them against literal fascists AND agitate them to drop support for a literal fascist.

That's what I'm doing. But you've openly stated that your position's purpose is to create a crisis in Biden's election which will force him to either capitulate to your demands or lose.

That's nothing less than a statement that failure to capitulate to your demands is worth condemning all of us to fascism.

Voting is such a small part of this picture, and it’s also the only part of it that’s binary.

Voting is an IMPORTANT part of this picture, and the key to stop fascism from taking over in the next six months. There's so much else that needs to be done - but right now, fascism is banging on the door.

archomrade OP ,

But you’ve openly stated that your position’s purpose is to create a crisis in Biden’s election which will force him to either capitulate to your demands or lose.

I've also openly stated that I think Biden can't win with this position (his polling is at least not evidence against that theory), regardless of what I'm doing here. I think his only route to victory is about-facing (I also think it's an extremely important issue in its own right that deserves agitation over).

He has 6 months to win and the convention is still a few months away, fingers crossed that he gets the message.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I think his only route to victory is about-facing (I also think it’s an extremely important issue in its own right that deserves agitation over).

I think you overestimate the importance of this issue to the electorate, and you overestimate how left-wing the American electorate is.

archomrade OP ,

I think you under-estimate how unpopular supporting the genocide would be, if only Biden wasn't actively denying it happening and that message wasn't being suppressed (let alone being communicated from Biden and congress themselves)

I think we have a pretty good cross-section of where we disagree.

Ensign_Crab ,

Why are you posing this as a binary?

Because his arguments fall apart instantly if you don't accept the false dichotomy upon which they rest.

Ensign_Crab ,

The problem with that is their position is "let's keep supporting genocide" which isn't a justifiable position.

elliot_crane ,

Hey now let’s not forget, abandoning Ukraine and Taiwan means that Russia and China get to do some genocide as well.

Nougat ,

That was implied.

themeatbridge ,

Ok, but that's an aspiration, not an action plan. What are you asking people to do? Who should they vote for? Where should they make political donations? Imagine you have convinced someone you're right. What's their next step?

archomrade OP ,

What are you asking people to do?

  • stop pushing this issue to the side and make it a priority

  • join in pushing your representatives to change their policy

The second point requires you do the bare minimum of raising the issue. The more you raise the issue the less your representative can ignore it.

Who should they vote for?

People should vote for the least bad option according to their own priorities. But if all you're doing is voting than you haven't done anything to address the issue being raised, and you are still a part of the problem. If, in response to this issue being raised, is simply 'but the other guy is worse', you've done nothing but obstructed progress and you'll be called out on it by the few of us who are doing the work of agitation.

Where should they make political donations?

In my opinion: to any organization that supports the end to the genocide. I recommend any of these progressives currently under threat by the AIPAC

Imagine you have convinced someone you’re right. What’s their next step?

Use whatever platform they have available to spread the message that democrats must end their support to Israel's war crimes. Make it clear that they risk losing their re-election if they continue dodging the issue.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Make it clear that they risk losing their re-election if they continue dodging the issue.

"If I don't get the policy change I want, fascism is an acceptable alternative" - People Who Are DEFINITELY Not Fascists(tm)

archomrade OP ,

It would be better if everyone who agreed with the policy change being pushed would also raise the issue, so that representatives would have a better idea of how many within their base actually supported it.

NaibofTabr ,

So what you're saying is that you're a single-issue voter.

archomrade OP ,

I'm saying i'll vote in november for whoever best serves my interests, just like everyone else here.

But i'll make sure my voice is heard all the way up until november what I think of Biden's shit Israel policy.

NaibofTabr ,

Uh huh. So what do you think of Trump's Israel policy?

archomrade OP ,

It's dogshit, too.

But Trump has no illusions about my likelihood of voting for him (or anyone in this demographic) no matter what he does. If I thought agitating him from where I am had any possibility of ending our support for genocide, i'd be doing that too. But I think it's much more likely that Biden would change his position if there was a loud enough group in his base screaming at him to end support

NoIWontPickAName ,

All they hear is agitate, none of them see anything else to what you say.

I feel you, you’re getting dogpiled, but I fucking feel you

Ensign_Crab ,

Single issue voters exist and Biden must take them into account.

NaibofTabr ,

Single-issue voters aren't capable of rational political conversation, or thought processing. They will be attracted to whichever charlatan offers to scratch their particular itch.

If you can't grasp nuance, you really aren't qualified to have political opinions.

Ensign_Crab ,

Single-issue voters aren’t capable of rational political conversation, or thought processing. They will be attracted to whichever charlatan offers to scratch their particular itch.

And despite that, they continue to exist and continue to be a factor with which Biden must contend.

If you can’t grasp nuance, you really aren’t qualified to have political opinions.

And yet, single issue voters are voters. No matter how much you want to disenfranchise them for disagreeing with you.

Note that nowhere during this conversation have I said that I am a single-issue voter. I'm voting for Biden despite his support for genocide. If you don't understand the difference between acknowledging the existence of single issue voters and actually being one, don't talk to others about nuance.

NaibofTabr , (edited )

Sure, they exist, but they aren't worth wasting any time or campaign effort on - unless you're suggesting that the campaign should simply promise these people what they want to hear without any intent to actually deliver.

Pandering is really the only way to bring such people into your camp - and it's the tactic that the GOP uses to pull in fringe groups and religious nuts. I don't think the Democratic party should start operating that way, even if it means losing elections.

My opinion is not that single-issue voters should be disenfranchised. Everyone should vote.

My opinion is that no reasonable person should waste their time listening to the opinions of single-issue voters or trying to have any kind of political discussion with them, and that no serious political campaign should waste time trying to pander to them.

Side note, this "you":

If you can’t grasp nuance, you really aren’t qualified to have political opinions.

wasn't directed at you personally, but broadly/generally. I thought that was obvious in context, but I was wrong. My apologies for the confusion.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

Did you get an opportunity to suggest realistic alternatives? Or did the Democratic party steamroll your local primary and rob you of your voice?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I did. I suggested Bernie. Not enough people agreed with me, apparently.

archomrade OP ,

and now you have to work with the representative you ended up with, just like the rest of us.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Unlike you, however, I'm working to keep the fascist from being my next representative. Seems that having a fascist at the head of our government doesn't bother you all that much. You might want to do some soul-searching as to why that is.

archomrade OP ,

It bothers me, but it also bothers me that my own representative is supporting fascism himself.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It clearly doesn't bother you enough to stop you from working to see the fascist elected so the representative supporting longstanding-but-dogshite-foreign-policy can 'learn his lesson'.

archomrade OP ,

I don't think he ought to lose because of this issue, I think he'll lose because of this issue all on his own.

You're free to disagree with the method of agitation but it comforts me (barely) that you would at least still support him if he were to change his position on this. It's my bet most people on the fence would, too.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think he ought to lose because of this issue

No, you don't think he 'ought' to, you're just Doing Your Part to make sure he does. Like drilling holes in a boat to protest the captain bailing water instead of filling the holes.

Nougat ,

SUNKEN SHIP 2024

archomrade OP ,

Like drilling holes in a boat to protest the captain bailing water instead of filling the holes.

This is such a terrible metaphor. A good metaphor is one that cant easily be reversed.

Example: Netanyahu is drilling holes, and I'm (both) bailing water (by voting) and also yelling at Biden he should stop Netanyahu, and Biden is sitting calmly on the other side of the boat denying any holes are being drilled at all.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

A good metaphor is one that cant easily be reversed.

What

In what fucking English class did you learn that in

archomrade OP ,

Maybe 'good' is too vague. Maybe 'convincing' is more accurate.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

A good metaphor can be reversed because a metaphors are inherently flexible. I have trouble thinking of a metaphor that can't be reversed. Care to give any examples?

archomrade OP ,

Care to give any examples?

No, because I don't think metaphors are particularly effective at communicating a point.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

So your entire point was just to deflect that you had no answer to the metaphor because you realize it's apt. Cool cool cool.

TigrisMorte ,

In the one about derailing threads when you've not a leg to stand on.

TigrisMorte ,

Only you are not in a position to bale water, and so aren't, but Biden is, and so is. So not sure your pedantry holds up plus quit trying to derail the thread.

archomrade OP ,

Oh look, another variation of the same metaphor saying something completely different than the others.

The point is that the metaphor isn't a very compelling one; you're not doing well to show otherwise.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

Just because someone does not want to vote for Biden does not mean they want Trump to win. That is a reductive argument and its the root of the issue with the system in the US. Picking the lesser evil is not a viable method for electing people to positions of power. What if the dems also nominated someone openly fascist, not just genocidal?

Would we pick the least fascist, fascist? The Democratic party needs reform, and unlike the Republican party they might actually listen because they at least say they will. Its either that or were already in a fascism and were being gas lit by the democratic party to think we have a voice.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Just because someone does not want to vote for Biden does not mean they want Trump to win.

Oh, yes it fucking does. That's what a FPTP system implies. That people failed High School Civics and seemingly still managed to get their degree isn't a refutation of this.

That is a reductive argument and its the root of the issue with the system in the US. Picking the lesser evil is not a viable method for electing people to positions of power.

It's the only means; it's just more naked under FPTP which effectively reduces the issue to two, instead of three or four.

What if the dems also nominated someone openly fascist, not just genocidal?

It's not the case, so suck it the fuck up and work against fascism.

If it was the case, the right decision would be revolt.

Would we pick the least fascist, fascist? The Democratic party needs reform, and unlike the Republican party they might actually listen because they at least say they will. Its either that or were already in a fascism and were being gas lit by the democratic party to think we have a voice.

Being told that voting strategically for the 'no' vote in an election that is effectively a referendum on whether or not America should become a fascist state is the only real choice is not 'fascism', unless you define fascism as 'reality'.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

I find this situation unacceptable, I will not be held hostage to the democrats because they cant be bothered to enact real reform when they should have, nor when they bent over backwards to let the court be stacked by fascists.

Were here, because of them, the republicans have been crystal clear since basically Nixon that their goal is a white christian fascist state. I cannot and will not continue to reward a do nothing party when they manufactured this situation to force me to vote for them because the "other guy" is worse.

I also will keep fighting fascism, but I will NOT pick up the democrat's flag and wave it as though I support them.

If not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump, then its the Democrats fault because they ran Biden, not mine. I will vote my conscience, and I will vote based on the best evidence in-front of me.

If the Democrats want me to vote for them, they know where I am, and they are more than welcome to reach out and talk to me and listen.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I find this situation unacceptable, I will not be held hostage to the democrats because they cant be bothered to enact real reform when they should have, nor when they bent over backwards to let the court be stacked by fascists.

Oh, cool, you will oh-so-bravely volunteer minorities to be killed because you won't be 'held hostage' by the democrats.

If not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump, then its the Democrats fault because they ran Biden,

"I don't agree with the only group of people large enough to be viable in the election on their compromise coalition candidate; I should get to choose the coalition candidate!"

not mine. I will vote my conscience

Apparently your conscience says "If I check the box that says 'throw away my vote', I'm not responsible for the millions of minorities that will be killed because of the candidate I allowed in by doing so"

Great conscience you got there.

If the Democrats want me to vote for them, they know where I am, and they are more than welcome to reach out and talk to me and listen.

How very egotistical of you. If we lose the election, I hope you're prepared to smile at every one of us in the camps and say "Sorry, but the Dems just didn't reach out to me; what was I supposed to do? Support a coalition candidate against fascism?"

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

I dont think you get it, I can't vote against any of these things, they are not options in my state. I dont get choice, we did not have a primary, the democrats are NOT viable in my state.

My plan is to stand between the fascists and my neighbors who are identified as part of any "other" group. Fascism already runs my state, and they are just waiting for the rest of the country to get on board.

The only choice left to me is to physically risk my life and the life of my family, because even protesting is against the law in my state. So when it gets to that point, it will be what I have to do.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I dont think you get it, I can’t vote against any of these things, they are not options in my state. I dont get choice, we did not have a primary, the democrats are NOT viable in my state.

If they were, it wouldn't matter - you made it clear that you won't be 'held hostage' by them if your vote WAS the difference between fascism and non-fascism. What a heroic stand you've made in favor of fascism!

The only choice left to me is to physically risk my life and the life of my family... So when it gets to that point, it will be what I have to do.

How convenient it is for every would-be martyr that martyrdom is the only option they're willing to go through with, and not any of the long, boring, tedious, thankless work the rest of us do day after day to stop things from getting to that point. If we succeed, you don't have to do anything except crow about how nobly you were ready to sacrifice yourself. If we fail, we won't be in any position to demand you follow through on your rhetoric.

because even protesting is against the law in my state.

I somehow doubt that.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

I somehow doubt that.

Fair, its semi-hyperbolic as I do enjoy basic federal protections regarding free speech. The problem is that in practice and enforcement its effectively illegal.

https://www.ericjburch.com/blog/2021/1/new-tennessee-law-may-make-protests-illegal.html

https://wpln.org/post/tennessee-gov-bill-lee-signs-law-that-will-increase-punishments-for-protesters/

https://tennesseelookout.com/2023/08/22/tn-house-passes-rules-to-restrict-speech-limit-disruptions-and-public-during-special-session/

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/04/29/tennessee-bill-offers-immunity-drivers-running-over-protesters/4881949001/

https://www.aclu-tn.org/en/know-your-rights/your-right-protest-tennessee

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/tennessee-gop-expels-2-democratic-state-lawmakers-gun-protests-rcna78531

Disorderly Conduct

TCA § 39-17-305:

(a) A person commits an offense who, in a public place and with intent to cause public annoyance or alarm:

(1) Engages in fighting or in violent or threatening behavior;

(2) Refuses to obey an official order to disperse issued to maintain public safety in dangerous proximity to a fire, hazard or other emergency; or

(3) Creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act that serves no legitimate purpose.

(b) A person also violates this section who makes unreasonable noise that prevents others from carrying on lawful activities.

(c) A violation of this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
Failure To Obey

TCA § 55-8-104:

(a) No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any police officer invested by law with authority to direct, control or regulate traffic. (b) A violation of this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
Resisting Arrest

TCA § 39-16-602:

(a) It is an offense for a person to intentionally prevent or obstruct anyone known to the person to be a law enforcement officer, or anyone acting in a law enforcement officer’s presence and at the officer’s direction, from effecting a stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search of any person, including the defendant, by using force against the law enforcement officer or another.

(b) Except as provided in § 39-11-611, it is no defense to prosecution under this section that the stop, frisk, halt, arrest or search was unlawful.

(c) It is an offense for a person to intentionally prevent or obstruct an officer of the state or any other person known to be a civil process server in serving, or attempting to serve or execute, any legal writ or process.

(d) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor unless the defendant uses a deadly weapon to resist the stop, frisk, halt, arrest, search or process server, in which event the violation is a Class A misdemeanor.

The summery is that if a duly appointed officer of the law says, even unconstitutionally, that I cannot protest, and I do not instantly and polity comply with this unconstitutional order, then I have committed a felony.

My only redress is to prove that the request was unconstitutional in court, AFTER i have been arrested and put in jail.

So yeah... GL.

TigrisMorte ,

Liar. At no point could anything more like "real reform", regardless of what you mean by the vague term, get passed. You are making excuses and sound far more like you are pushing a narrative than supporting a position.

But perhaps I am too harsh. Please do tell of this "real reform" so we can understand your issue. Be specific and include detailed explanation as to how this thing could have been done at any time in the past four decades.

More likely however, you're agitprop project apathy third party is a fail.

infinitevalence , (edited )
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

We can start with recent history first:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/21/filibuster-voting-rights-manchin-sinema/
The democrats have not had the balls to stop filibuster abuse

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/29/624467256/what-happened-with-merrick-garland-in-2016-and-why-it-matters-now
The Democrats did watched as a justice appointment was stolen, and did nothing substantial.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/democrats-used-rail-against-dark-money-now-they-re-better-n1239830
Remember Citizens United, and how we all knew that it would open the flood gates to dark money... Well now that the Democrats are on the receiving end you will notice how silent they are about any campaign finance reform beyond lip-service.

What about the two most important redistricting, where were the democrats in protecting voting rights and fair elections? The Heritage Foundation enacted a plan to sweep red leaning people into key positions throughout the US in 2000 and again 2010.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/685691
https://www.vox.com/22961590/redistricting-gerrymandering-house-2022-midterms

So much of this goes back as far as the 1920's
https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1901-1950/The-Permanent-Apportionment-Act-of-1929/

So, what real reforms do I want, and have I been pushing for at local to state levels?

  1. Money is not speech, and individuals can donate, but corporations should not be able to do so.
  2. First Past the Post always produces a 2 party system, we need to switch to something like ranked choice, or other voting system where my vote counts, and i can vote for candidates who I actually want to win.
  3. I want redistricting to be non partisan by law, and proportional universally as was the intent in the constitution. If that means that we need to expand the house (which we do) to keep at the 30,000:1 ratio defined in the constitution then we should do so.
  4. I want voting right to be treated as rights. Automatic registration, paid national voting holidays, and overturning felony disenfranchisement.

Its crazy, that I would ask the Democratic party to enact actual democratic policy that protects, and encourages citizen participation.

TigrisMorte ,

"have not had the balls", you mean Votes. They have not had the Votes.
"watched as a justice appointment was stolen", again you mean, didn't have the Votes to do anything to stop it, Senate being in Republican hands and all.

You are either an idiot or total agitprop. There is no third alternative.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

I would guess idiot because I have no clue what "agitprop" is.

I am having a hard time understanding why you are attacking me, and my level of intelligence rather than providing evidence or reasoned arguments to better help me understand why my positions may be invalid.

I dont disagree that they did not have the votes, and that is the problem, they never have the votes when they need them, and never use them when they have them. The Democrats are a loose coalition and calling them a party is laughable.

If they want my vote they have to earn it, because every single election they pull the same shit saying that this republican is the most evil. They did it with Regan, with Bush Sr, with Bush Jr, and again with Trump. And yet somehow the most evil always shows up the next election, and nothing changes. Having a most evil is how they maintain power, and is a requirement for it to continue. If the Democrats really cared they would have already made this type of fascism impossible without having to beg and plea with the population that this time is different, and this time we just have to win to save the country, and maybe, maybe if we beg enough we can make a difference this time...

Maybe there is a third alternative, maybe you have Stockholm syndrome and are in love with your jailer.

TigrisMorte ,

I'd suggest until you do, don't talk about politics because you've no clue what you are spreading as these are not your ideas but those fed to you. https://www.britannica.com/topic/agitprop ag·it·prop
/ˈajətˌpräp/
noun
noun: agitprop; noun: agit-prop

political (originally communist) propaganda, especially in art or literature.
"agitprop painters"
infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

Money is not speech, and individuals can donate, but corporations should not be able to do so.
First Past the Post always produces a 2 party system, we need to switch to something like ranked choice, or other voting system where my vote counts, and i can vote for candidates who I actually want to win.
I want redistricting to be non partisan by law, and proportional universally as was the intent in the constitution. If that means that we need to expand the house (which we do) to keep at the 30,000:1 ratio defined in the constitution then we should do so.
I want voting right to be treated as rights. Automatic registration, paid national voting holidays, and overturning felony disenfranchisement.

So, these are not my ideas and they are being fed to me, by who? Also yes not a single one of them is my idea they are concepts that I have found through research, discussions, and deliberate thought.

You keep attacking me personally but providing no rational rebuttal to any of the references or points I have made. I really am open to adjusting my opinions when provided with better evidence or better arguments (logical not emotional). I really dont understand what you want from me, do you want me to just vote for democrats because Trump is evil? Do you want me to just vote because you think every vote counts? Do you think I have an agenda to get people not to vote for Biden because I disagree with his support of Netanyahu?

Could you please take a moment to stop attack and help me understand?

Ensign_Crab , (edited )

“have not had the balls”, you mean Votes. They have not had the Votes.

Willingness. They haven't had the willingness. They would rather protect their Jim Crow era excuse for inaction than protect abortion, trans people, and democracy itself.

Nougat ,

Just because someone does not want to vote for Biden does not mean they want Trump to win.

Might not be what they want, but it's more likely what they'll get.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

Yep, and its a real issue that I have to wrestle with in my own decisions. The good news is my state wont go for Biden because were gerrymandered to hell and back so I can vote however I want.

Nougat ,

That hardly seems like "good news."

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

No shit, its been hard watching my freedom, and my voice slowly being eroded by the fascists over the last 30 years.

In that time I have only ONCE missed an election, and I have never had my vote elect a single person with the exception of the city council. Its hard to keep going when you have been disenfranchised for most of your life.

TigrisMorte ,

False. I know because I asked OK about Abortion protections.

TigrisMorte ,

It is in fact what they are choosing to make more likely by promoting not participating. You go to effort for goals you wish to achieve regardless of what lie you tell and to whom about your intent.

Ensign_Crab ,

Just because they don't want to vote for Biden doesn't mean they're not voting for him anyway.

TigrisMorte ,

If you choose not to decide, others shall choose for you. Others as in the Evangelical Nat-Cs, they always Vote.
But do please drone on about your purity and how sullied and corrupt all of us in the real world are.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

Thats lucky, we were not given any choices in my state, we had no discussion, no primary debates, and no discussion as to the viability of running with Biden.

I love Bernie, but his real shot was 2016 and the Dems blocked his path so they would not have to have a real vote which would have embarrassed Hillary.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

His real shot was 2020, and he got outpolitiked.

TigrisMorte ,

Those words do not mean what you think they mean.

infinitevalence ,
@infinitevalence@discuss.online avatar

I am open to education, so what do they mean?

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