If you don't vote for the guy that denies the genocide, you gonna get the guy that will aknowledge, revel in and accelerate the genocide, together with a sprinkle of killing LGBTQIA+ folk in his own country. Good job.
I am once again posting that I will never vote for Joe Biden again and you don’t have to either.
This November I’m planning to mark my ballot for the party for socialism and liberation and you can too. There are lots of parties you might be able to align with if psl isn’t your thing.
There are no votes against candidates, only for them. Choosing to vote for Biden isn’t a vote against trump, it’s a vote for Biden and the genocide he just recently denied the existence of.
There are no votes against candidates, only for them.
Sure there is. The boomers/evangelical show up in force every single election. They're gonna do so again this november, and if Trump isn't stopped we may see an end to what little democracy we have. To prevent that (or in other words go against it or vote against it), we need to get more electoral votes for a different candidate. Third parties are not viable for that.
So it's either going to end up being Biden or Trump. And I don't want to see trans people killed, so I'm begrudgingly voting Biden. Have fun with the blood of minorities on your hands because you placed your own need for a clear conscience over the lives of minorities.
There is no way to vote against a candidate. You can’t mark the bubble “anybody but trump”, or “I wish the democrats had run anyone else”.
Sure you can. I just explained how.
A vote for Biden is a vote in support of Biden, not a vote against trump. That’s how it’ll be counted.
This is just semantics.
Support for Biden incorporates support for the genocide he supplies and denies the existence of.
And lack of support for Biden incorporates support for genocide that Trump will continue and excelerate, in addition to the death and other harm that will come to minorities in the U.S., as well as the potential end of what little democracy we have.
It's a catch 22, and you're choosing the worst option.
You probably don’t want to invoke the imagery of blood on one’s hands when you’re advocating for Biden.
Blood is on the hands of every taxpayer. I'm strategically voting to reduce that amount of blood. You're doing nothing to reduce it, and potentially increasing it.
There’s some really flawed reasoning going into your ideas here. I’m gonna go way out on some limbs and try to enumerate the different stuff that seems to underpin your ideas, but if I get something wrong feel free to lay it out.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
That’s not semantics, it’s how the system works. It’s not a semantic distinction because opposition to one candidate does not mean support for another, but voting for a candidate indicates support for them and their actions and platform.
The reason that’s important is because a person has to both pick one of the understandings of voting for Biden in opposition to trump that I laid out above (or some different one that I missed!) and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
The problem with waiving your hands about what trump is gonna do is that almost every American made it through trumps term. They saw how he operated and what he did. You have a hard time convincing a person that the president who didn’t do a genocide is gonna be worse than the one who is at this very moment supplying one and denying its existence at the same time.
I don’t say that to defend trump, but to illustrate how that line of thinking opens you up to some pretty straightforward critiques from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
It’s not an enviable position.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer. Americans should be angry that a genocide is being committed in our names, but we bear no responsibility for it because despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And you would have me vote for the man who will aid and deny a genocide despite it being universally unpopular? Because the other guy is worse? The other guy who was already president just four short years ago and didn’t do what Biden is doing?
No.
We are given a chance to record our political will this November and mine won’t be in favor of Bidens genocide.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
The only currently available candidate that stands a chance is Biden. I know you cover that in your next sentence so:
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
Biden has still has a chance of beating Trump. The polls are horseshit.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
If that were to happen I would be elated.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
You can say what you like, but this is still just semantics. I understand what you're saying is technically correct, but you're missing the point of what is being said when somebody says they are voting against something.
You're ignoring the intended meaning and focusing on the technical mechanics.
and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
A vote for a candidate is not a blanket support for all policies and actions they make.
from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
Then you're an even bigger fool than you initially let on.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
This isn't my job. And you're not who I'm here to convince.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer.
Every single tax payer is ultimately sending their money to the federal government, who then uses that money to bomb and kill Palestinians. Most states gave police training ops with the IDF.
That's not a warped view, those are the facts, and it means blood is on all of our hands.
despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And yet we pay our taxes, which kills Palestinians. You bear responsibility just as I. You can't avoid that anymore than you can avoid a Trump/Biden winning.
If you’d be elated that Biden stepped down or that the convention put someone else up, join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies and actions. You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”. Consent to the candidates program is part of casting a vote for them and if you can’t stomach going on a permanent record as saying “I support Bidens genocide” then don’t vote for him.
I am not considering voting for trump. I decided sixteen years ago that I wouldn’t vote for Biden again and am planning on marking my ballot psl this year. As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
I asked if that was who you were trying to convince because it’s either undecideds, nonvoters or me and you will never convince me to vote for Biden. You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him. You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions but instead you’re on the internet trying to advocate against doing the bare minimum to stop Biden policy that you say taints us all. Media can say all kinds of things about protest movements and the White House can deploy its press secretary to dodge questions about crackdown on antiwar actions but neither can deny a vote cast and counted.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
Idealistic sophistry at best, malicious deceit at worst.
In a perfect world, I would agree with you. In your fever dream, I probably do. Unfortunately, we have to play the hand we're dealt and exist in reality. In reality, the system doesn't work the way you wish it did.
Please, do everything you're saying you're going to do, make your idealist stand and pat yourself on the back because because you took the moral high ground and voted for who you thought was best.
I know you're going to come back with the logic of "vote for != vote against" and you're not wrong. There's no defense against that. In a fair, and just world, you're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the rest of us don't live in your idealist leftist utopia, and are stuck on mundane terra firma. Enjoy your smug satisfaction as you look around in a self-congratulatory stupor knowing that you didn't vote for someone who didn't implement your idealism as immediately as you wished for.
The rest of us, "liberals" or whatever the term is now days... I can't keep it straight anymore, too old and tired... conservatives who can no longer handle the directions their party is going, libertarians who can no longer abide stupidity, and the unaffiliated who simply want people to be able to live as who and what they are...love who and what they are, we will vote. Sure, it'll be a vote for the status quo, but as the status quo sits now...it's better than the alternative.
I know you find the status quo morally repugnant, and frankly I don't fault you a bit. It is, you're right. We should be so much further down the path than we are. Is the Democrat du jour going to get us there? No, probably not. Are they going to step in the right direction? Maybe. Are they going to be a triage scenario to stop the hemorrhaging and stabilize the patient so they survive long enough to get to a place where actual work can be done? Hopefully, definitely more so than the republican du jour.
It's meatball politics. It's ugly, it's unpleasant, it's sad that we have to fight so hard to simply stay where we're at.
If you read this far, I appreciate it. This is a lot of thoughts I've had reading yours and other comments throughout various forums. You are not the cause of all of these, but you were the catalyst that drove pen to paper.
I'm not looking to debate you, mainly for two reasons.
There's no point.
You're not technically wrong. I'm not going to dissuade you, and you're not going to elevate me beyond reality.
I hope you have a good day neighbor, and may you find the utopia you so richly deserve.
join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
The error in this is that you are relying on boomer who's supporting genocide to do the right thing. Be a gambler all you like, I'm not going to gamble with fascism. It's shortsighted and will get overall more people killed.
Every fucking day Biden's campaign team sends me emails asking for donations, and they send me like 8 every day. And every time I respond with imagery of dead fucking bodies in Palestine. And do you know how they've responded? They fucking haven't. They know they're losing votes because of this. They know they're losing ground because of this, because every other email from them is them complaining that they are getting out fundraised by Trump.
But they don't even give enough of a shit to have one of their lower level lackeys from their campaign team respond. They truly do not give a shit. And you're gonna trust them to do the right thing and step down? You're gonna trust genocide supporters to do the right thing?
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies
Not so. A vote can be interpreted a million different ways. It's a number, not an essay of love. It is a statement saying "of all of these choices, X is my preference". Trying to decipher any more meaning of that requires more data which isn't captured in an election.
How do you tell the difference between a voter who chose a candidate at random versus one who chose them because they were best friends? You can't.
You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”.
Sure you can, you just did. You're comparing a fully articulated thought to a vote, of course they aren't going to match.
As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
It isn't difficult to illustrate how much larger of a danger Trump is:
You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
Anybody fence sitting.
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
Why not? And it isn't just Biden's actions, it's pretty much every major political action the U.S. has ever taken since it's inception. And word of advice, if you're trying to convince people, starting from a position of "you don't ACTUALLY believe X because you said Y" is just silly, and a waste of everyone's time.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him
I've already explain that's not how this works. It's a two party system.
You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions
I'm trying not to get shot by our police state and widowing my disabled wife. So yeah, fuck me I guess.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
I will not be handing Trump another victory, no thank you. It was a disaster the first time we decided to botch it in 2016, it's going to be even worse this time.
you don't believe the democrats will listen or can be pushed left. you don't believe they have any intention of changing course and that they have accepted that they'll lose votes because of it. you don't believe they can be trusted to make the right choices, choices you would support.
you aren't able to take direct action that would reflect your political beliefs and your clear eyed possession of a basic moral compass (i'm right there with you, my 60 hour workweek, family obligations and employer preclude me from much more than being present at events and holding signs).
but you won't reflect any of that with the action you are able to take in november, denying the democrats your vote that they have already counted out. you aren't willing to make your voice heard in the only way that they will listen to.
you posted some memes and its important to recognize that this isn't some hypothetical or thought experiment. a sitting american president is literally aiding a genocide and denying its existence at the same time. you have the opportunity to not support that action.
you can register your dissatisfaction with that in a way that cannot be deepfaked, covered up, misinterpreted or sidelined by casting a ballot for a party whose platform is "palestinian statehood and stop weapons shipments to israel".
it won't require that you put yourself in danger or that you expose yourself to attack and it doesn't take any more time than what you were already planning to do.
on the topic of how a vote can be interpreted, let me give you a concrete example that will hopefully help illustrate what i'm saying: biden received 81,283,501 votes in 2020. was the biden campaign team able to examine, for example, vote number 12,345,678 and determine if that person genuinely believed in biden's platform or if they were simply disgusted with trumps covid response?
of course they were not. votes are interpreted by campaigns as support. they are not able to interpret them as anything but that. that's not because the voters genuinely support those candidates, but because the vote only contains information about support.
that's why campaigns use a bunch of other methods to figure out what people were actually trying to express with their votes, like polls, statistical analysis and interviews, to varying degrees of accuracy.
Hey bloodfart, the only reason I can still have a job and access healthcare in a lot of places is because of Biden working to reverse Trump's anti-trans stuff. I get that you feel all high and mighty telling people that folks like me don't matter enough but this shit is kinda important to some of us.
The kind of people who say "Liberals hate leftists more than fascists" and then proceed to oppose liberal coalition candidates in situations where a leftist coalition candidate is nonviable, even though fascism is the only realistic alternative outcome to the liberal coalition candidate winning.
They're supposed to be an NPC, a "Non-Player Character." The term comes from video games, but in this meme format, it refers to a person who doesn't think for themselves, thoughtlessly repeating talking points, without engaging in good-faith discussion. Sort of like how a character in a video game just repeats predetermined lines of dialogue.
In this specific case, it's representing a particular sect of leftists, who criticize Liberals for being uncooperative with them (or will cooperate with people furthermore to their right, such as conservatives, reactionaries, or fascists, instead of with said leftists), who also won't vote for Joe Biden in the upcoming Presidential general election.
This is neither an endorsement nor rejection of the message, but they're saying (this sect of) leftists are hypocrites, thoughtlessly bashing Liberals instead of working together.
PugJesus has denounced pretty much every existing Leftist movement, such as the Black Panther Party, along Ultra-pure terms, but only treats liberalism with nuanced critique, so it's difficult to believe them to be a genuine leftist and not just a progressive liberal.
You know, generally speaking: a person being consistently and demonstrably anti-leftist just means they are anti-leftist. Until there's evidence to the contrary further analysis is a waste of time and energy.
Yeah fair enough. In layman's terms, I would say they were a leftist. Maybe not as educated as they should be, but the heart seems to be in the right place.
I totally get why they don't fit a more strict definition than mine though.
Thank you for the more in-depth research and information too
Could it be that threatning Biden with not voting may somehow force him to use his remaining office time to fight an ongoing genocide, by that winning the public opinion of young voters and being in office for another 4 years?
If he does that, he loses the vote of the democrats that support Israel.
Biden is in a lose-lose situation with the electorate, and is a stubborn boomer. No amount of letting Trump win and get trans people killed will change Biden’s mind.
I get it, I fucking hate Biden too. But it is going to be a disaster if we allow Trump to get elected, just like it was the first time.
Don't forget, Biden also has to get the independent vote. And if Biden takes a strong anti-genocide position, the GOP will bash him for it, and use it as ammunition to call him antisemitic just as they have with the college students.
I'm not saying he should pander to fascists. I'm saying "here is his motivations, here is what his opponents will do, thus influencing his motivations".
Biden is a piece of shit, that's well established. I'm saying that he will never listen to progressives, and efforts to get him to listen aren't going to result in anything.
Re-replying since you deleted your original comment:
I’m not saying he should pander to fascists. I’m saying “here is his motivations, here is what his opponents will do, thus influencing his motivations”.
Biden is a piece of shit, that’s well established. I’m saying that he will never listen to progressives, and efforts to get him to listen aren’t going to result in anything.
Smart politics would say GOP bashing Biden is a good thing in this context. Adopting GOP talking points is what gave us our current immigration policy, and that is another liability in his campaign, though much smaller than giving arms to an active genocide.
I agree with everything you said but it is worth noting that those Dems who support Israel are few and may be easily offset by winning votes from other communities that are outraged by everything happening.
Perhaps I was a bit biased in saying that, as there are some neighborhoods in my city that are predominantly democrat, and they have a number of pro-israel signs up.
no, the logical course of action is stopping acceptance of such egregious policies and showing it on the streets. every aristocratic political party has showed us they are not the answer.
"I'll play with the future of millions to try to manipulate one guy into making an army he isn't in control of do what I want.
This is the only logical recourse"
Bro, he is calling u a Chinese bot, whataboutism doesn't apply in the slightest here. If you want to use debate terms, please learn when to apply them.
Democrats promote fascists so they can pretend that they're heroes for running against them. Vote for biden, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're not voting for a fascist, because democrats are absolutely allies of fascists if not outright fascists themselves. They would rather lose an election to a fascist than let a leftist win, 2016 is a prime example of this. As the saying goes, scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
Of course. If I was American I wouldn’t spend a second campaigning for Biden or telling people “you need to vote!!” online, because I’d rather spend that time unionising my workplace, doing mutual aid, building up communities. Things that build real structural change no matter who’s in power. But on the day I’d still go vote for the lesser evil candidate. It takes a small amount of time. Then I’d go straight back to real work. I think most leftists do the same.
Legitimately yes, that is the actual point most leftists tired of liberals punching left are making.
Actual organization outside the bourgeois state apparatus is far more important, plain and simple. I'll probably be voting for Biden, but I am not going to pretend it's "fighting fascism," that happens on the ground.
I don't think that you and people sharing your thoughts are the target of the meme. There is an exceptional amount of accelerationist and/or anti-electoralist (they are indistinguishable in outcomes) posting going on. People are trying to discourage voting for Biden AND voting altogether.
Cool, so you're saying you don't give a fuck how many minorities have to die so you can feel good when you mark the box on your ballot. Great. Left praxis in the flesh.
You seem pretty content to let countless Gazans die to possibly prevent you facing oppression here.
Yep, because Trump has committed to stopping the Gazan genoci-
Wait, what's that?
Oh, he's actually said he wants MORE dead Gazans?
Huh.
The solution is guwtting leftists into supporting genocide, but to get the Democrats to oppose genocide.
It'll be great if they do. I plan on raising awareness as much as I can about the atrocities in Gaza. But if it comes down to it, and Biden is still in support of Israel come election day, I'm not dumb enough to vote for MORE genocide for EVERYONE.
Just because Trump enthusiastically supports the genocide doesn't make Biden's acceptance of it ok. Nothing will be done about it unless Democrats feel like it will help them come November. So that means holding the Democrats' feet to the fire and demanding a ceasefire. The election isn't for 6 months. There is plenty to do, but liberals on Lemmy seem only interested in saying that leftists support Trump.
See, the issue comes when "plenty to do" ends up with "justifying allowing fascism", as a glance down any of these threads will show is a common position. "If Biden doesn't change his position, he DESERVES to lose"; of course, the deaths Trump will cause is irrelevant; minorities must die to punish the old fucks in the DNC. There is an approach on a deontological level that is fucking insane from a utilitarian standpoint, and it's not something that I feel warrants standing by silently about.
On here, on Lemmy, fucking no one is in favor of Israel, except that one weirdo who got himself banned from 2/3s of the communities on here. Thank the gods. "Genocide bad" is already accepted; what is sometimes missed is "A Trump election implies a significant increase in genocide", which is why I beat the drum on here. I've seen leftists on here (by no means representative of all leftists, not even all Lemmy leftists, I know) say things as repulsive, nonsensical, and varied as:
America deserves genocide anyway for supporting genocide, so it's okay if Trump wins
Trump winning will spark a left-wing revolution, so everything will be better in the end
Trump actually isn't any different than Biden, and won't kill any significantly greater number of people
A personal moral stand is worth the lives of millions of minorities and leftists
As long as the moderates are taught a lesson, it's worth it
As long as I see those opinions regularly pop up outside of .ml and like instances, I will continue beating the "Vote for Biden you dumb fucks" drum over the "Genocide is BAD you dumb fucks" drum that I would favor when interacting with the general American population.
You seem pretty content to let countless Gazans die to possibly prevent you facing oppression here.
Nothing any of us do in the upcoming election will stop that. Voting Trump will get Gazans killed, voting Biden will get Gazans killed, and voting 3rd party will get Gazans killed.
And it's hardly just a possibility of oppression here. Trump has vowed to do everything in his power to stop gender affirming care from being available. It's going to end up with dead trans people, including children. That's not just a possibility, that's practically a guarantee.
But Trump isn't going to stop with that, because he and his buddies have made it clear that they want to tear down what little democracy we have, and kill/jail his political opponents. That means you. He isn't paraphrasing Hitler for nothing.
I wrote in Bernie in the Democratic primary. IDK if that even gets counted; I don't know how it works, but fuck man, someone reads it I know, even if from there it goes straight into the "N/A" column.
2016 taught me that 3rd party and no voters tilt the scale in the favor of Republicans. I'm getting flashbacks with all the comments on Lemmy here saying as much.
I still legitimately have flashbacks to election night in 2016. Fuck. It's insane that it's almost a decade ago. I can remember it like it just happened.
Long before Bernie there was Al Gore in 2000 who lost because of a supreme court decision saying the majority vote did not matter in the US (not really, but it did decide the election and stop the Florida recounts). Not only changed the narrative on climate change for the future, but also about what matters for federal elections.
Biden hasn't been the worst president, but he's far from what we'd like and streets ahead of Trump. It sucks knowing our government is completely bought by the rich.
