Lemmy.world Admin Response to Meta/Threads

There has been significant discussion in recent weeks regarding Meta/Threads. We would like to express our disappointment with the negative and threatening tone of some of these discussions. We kindly ask everyone to engage in civil discourse and remember that not everyone will share the same opinions, which is perfectly acceptable.

When considering whether or not to defederate from Threads, we're looking for a decision based on facts that prioritize your safety. We strive to remain neutral to make an informed choice.

First, there seem to be some misconceptions about how the Fediverse operates based on several posts. We’ve compiled some resource links to help explain the details and address any misunderstandings.

Fed Tips , Fediverse , ActivityPub

Initial Thoughts:

It seems unlikely that Meta will federate with Lemmy. When/if Meta adopts ActivityPub, it will likely affect Mastodon only rather than Lemmy, given Meta's focus on being a Twitter alternative at the moment.

Please note that we have a few months before Threads will even federate with Mastodon, so we have some time to make the right decision.

Factors to Consider:
Factors to consider if Meta federates with Lemmy:

Privacy - While it’s true that Meta's privacy settings for the app are excessive, it’s important to note that these settings only apply to users of the official Threads app and do not impact Lemmy users. It’s worth mentioning that Lemmy does not collect any personal data, and Meta has no means of accessing such data from this platform. In addition, when it comes to scraping data from your post/comments, Meta doesn’t need ActivityPub to do that. Anyone can read your profile and public posts as it is today.

Moderation - If a server hosts a substantial amount of harmful content without performing efficient and comprehensive moderation, it will create an excessive workload for our moderators. Currently, Meta is utilizing its existing Instagram moderation tools. Considering there were 95 million posts on the first day, this becomes worrisome, as it could potentially overwhelm us and serve as a sufficient reason for defederation.

Ads - It’s possible if Meta presents them as posts.

Promoting Posts - It’s possible with millions of users upvoting a post for it to trend.

Embrace, extend, and extinguish (EEE) - We don't think they can. If anyone can explain how they technically would, please let us know. Even if Meta forks Lemmy and gets rid of the original software, Lemmy will survive.

Instance Blocking - Unlike Mastodon, Lemmy does not provide a feature for individual users to block an instance (yet). This creates a dilemma where we must either defederate, disappointing those who desire interaction with Threads, or choose not to defederate, which will let down those who prefer no interaction with Threads.

Blocking Outgoing Federation - There is currently no tool available to block outgoing federation from lemmy.world to other instances. We can only block incoming federation. This means that if we choose to defederate with our current capabilities, Threads will still receive copies of lemmy.world posts. However, only users on Threads will be able to interact with them, while we would not be able to see their interactions. This situation is similar to the one with Beehaw at the moment. Consequently, it leads to significant fragmentation of content, which has real and serious implications.

Conclusion:
From the points discussed above, the possible lack of moderation alone justifies considering defederation from Threads. However, it remains to be seen how Meta will handle moderation on such a large scale. Additionally, the inability of individuals to block an instance means we have to do what is best for the community.

If you have any added points or remarks on the above, please send them to @mwadmin.

kzhe ,

I want to stay federated with threads and oppose defederation. Just putting it out there.

scarabic ,

I didn’t realize that defederation only breaks the link in one direction. I don’t like the idea of my posts being exported to Threads where they’ll have an entirely different discussion on them.

RipleyRiley ,
@RipleyRiley@lemmy.world avatar

I would prefer lemmy.world defederate from Threads and any other major social media giant's attempt at federation. My reasons for doing so have been covered really well in other comments in this post.

I just want to remind everyone this is a direct quote from Zuckerberg regarding people handing over their data to Facebook: "They trust me. Dumb fucks."

TwoGems ,
@TwoGems@lemmy.world avatar

Ribbit

faltuuser ,

Did meta went through their chat history and then contacted the authorities?

timewarp ,
@timewarp@lemmy.world avatar

No, they received a subpoena and complied and it turned out to be a case involving abortion. Meta may suck when it comes to privacy for its own users, but I blame the states and not Meta for this particular issue.

timewarp ,
@timewarp@lemmy.world avatar

Did you read the post? Blocking an instance isn't going to prevent what you post from being accessible. Also, companies in the US are legally required to abide by subpoenas for the most part. The issue with the abortion case had much more to do with the failures of states and the US than with Meta itself. I don't use Facebook or Instagram, but I don't think making a decision for the entire community to block others because someone is offended is the right approach. I'd much rather see the option for users to decide what they see and don't see... that way you pick for yourself.

SirNuke ,
@SirNuke@kbin.social avatar

Embrace, extend, and extinguish (EEE) - We don’t think they can. If anyone can explain how they technically would, please let us know. Even if Meta forks Lemmy and gets rid of the original software, Lemmy will survive.

It doesn't start out with maliciousness. The rank and file technical staff at Facebook aren't evil. Facebook understands the value of top tier tech talent and top dollar buys you smart people.

The initial federation is rough, but the problems are resolved surprisingly quick. None of the doom and gloom comes to pass, and Facebook consistently acts as a trustworthy actor. Their employees aren't really different than their open source counterparts. They make good faith contributions to open source codebases. Their collective experience with distributed systems proves useful in solving growing pains as the Federation grows.

They eventually start to make proposals to ActivityPub. There's outrage but no one can come up with good technical objections, so they are approved. The doom and gloom didn't come to pass, and looks like it never will.

Facebook doesn't need malicious intent for what's going down. It slowly, maybe quickly, becomes the dominate actor in the space. Facebook is pouring money into making Threads the best it can be, and what's wrong with them trying to build an audience?

Thread's improvements set an increasingly high standard for what people expect. More uptime, cleaner UI, more responsive API calls, more personalized frontpage algorithms, higher resolution videos - more and more features. More and more cost. Even people who kneejerk reject Facebook recognize how much better their site is. There are still important reasons to go with Lemmy or Kbin over Threads, but FOSS projects have never been good at making their case in ways random-not-technical people can understand, let alone why they should care about them.

After a while, Facebook starts walling people into their platform. Starts with little things like how Reddit added video and picture hosting to replace Imgur et al. It's not malicious, but rather from TPMs who are under pressure to increase engagement. After a while what else is there? Just don't turn the heat up too many degrees at once.

It's wrong to think of Facebook as a uniquely bad actor. This isn't 90s/2000s Microsoft with blatantly transparent EEE aims. There have always been bad actors. There will always be bad actors. There are bad actors with us right now.

Facebook needs to make money, and they won't do so by directly charging users. There's only one path forward for Facebook in this, and it will come at the expense of its users and everyone else in the Fediverse.

Build something useful, then put up walls around it, and then exploit it for profit; the internet's monomyth. You don't have to read the writing on the wall, but it is there. Federating with Threads is signing your own death warrant.

If the Fediverse experiment is going to survive, it needs to be able to withstand these bad actors. One of the ways it can do so is to recognize and reject them. Facebook has so many resources and so much power and we don't have to run the experiment to know where this will go. It is important to explicitly say "your goals do not align with what we are trying to build, and therefore we will not voluntarily interact with you."

deweydecibel ,

It's so bizarre to see people complaining about "kneejerk" reactions as if it's the user's fault and not Meta's.

Have you people just forgotten everything about Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook?

You're goddamn right the reactions are kneejerk, that's the point.

After over a decade of abuse, controversy, and horrendous practices that have defaced the very idea of social media and caused actual, real damage throughout the world, people have rightfully identified Meta as a monster.

And when a monster is coming for you, the kneejerk reaction is turn around and run.

It's very telling that all the arguments for allowing them in are basically "well, we can survive it". Like, everyone seems to be on the same page, here: Meta is terrible and wants to monopolize everything. Yet rather than the sensible thing and just get away from them, people are arguing we should fuck around and find out?

BroBot9000 ,
@BroBot9000@lemmy.world avatar

Please don’t give Meta even an inch.

They wouldn’t be stepping into the Frediverse if they didn’t have a plan to either monetize the user base or destroy their competition.

Don’t let them take a pound and then some.

Rhoeri ,
@Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

One FUCKING hundred percent this.

Barns ,
@Barns@lemmy.world avatar

I appreciate the thoughtful response and agree - no need for a knee jerk reaction when there is still some time until a decision needs to be made, and there are still quite a few unanswered questions.

As long as you maintain this level of transparency I trust that you make the right decision for lemmy.world.

As usual, thank you!

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