First of all, I'm not at all against medical (or recreational for that matter) marijuana. It helps people, and those people should have access to medications that help them, and I'd rather have the current system than no access to medical marijuana at all. I feel like I need to start off with this because otherwise I feel like parts of this comment may come off as anti-marijuana, and that's not my intention at all.
But it's always been kind of wild to me how the programs we have are handling medical marijuana, I'm pretty sure if a doctor tried to handle any other medication like we usually handle medical marijuana, he'd lose his license.
Marijuana isn't one drug, it's several, THC, CBD, Terpenes, various other cannabinoids and other active ingredients, all with different interactions with your body and with each other that can produce a variety of effects on their own or in combination with the others.
And often you're given little to no medical guidance on which ones will actually help with which issues, how much or how often you should take them, and in what way.
It's kind of like being given a bucket of assorted pills that may or may not help your condition and being told to mix and match them and try taking them in various ways until you feel better.
And don't even get me started on smoking it. Yes, it can be an effective delivery method, and you can go back and forth on how marijuana smoke is more or less harmful in various ways than tobacco, but at the end of the day putting smoke in your lungs is bad for you, and I don't think there's a doctor in the world who would disagree with that. If nicotine was some sort of wonder drug that could help with various conditions and you could get a prescription for it, I guarantee you it wouldn't come in the form of tobacco, you'd get pills, patches, maybe some kind of inhaler, vape or nebulizer, injections, suppositories, etc. some sort of purified product with a known dosage.
It's practically impossible to really do medical grade QA on a plant, there's going to be variation from one plant to another, or even from different parts of the same plant depending on weather, light, water, fertilizer, and other variables in the growing conditions, not to mention just the genetic variations in the plants, and knowing exactly how much of which active ingredients are in the product is kind of key to being able to dial in what is an effective dose.
Yes, a lot of that has to do with all of the shitty laws and regulations we have around marijuana and our broken medical system in general, I'm not going to go into that too much because this comment is already going to be long enough that a lot of people won't read it, but I'll leave it it's hard to study marijuana to figure what works and how, and it's hard to build up the kind of industry needed to make actual pure and consistent medical grade marijuana products.
Now of course, if we handled medical marijuana the way it probably should be for the best results, it would probably turn out to be a hugely expensive undertaking under our current healthcare system. There'd probably be a lot of doctor-patient interaction to help you dial in your dosages, with more guidance on how and when to take it, we'd probably be getting into territory where you'd need some sort of a compounding pharmacist who could provide you with a custom blend of the right active ingredients in precise ratios in the delivery method that's most effective for your condition and needs, there'd be a huge pharmaceutical industry (and probably all of the corporate greed that goes with it) that would need to be built to provide these medications, etc.
And unless we have some major overhaul to our healthcare system, that would all probably price a lot of patients out of being able to afford these treatments.
And yes, the current system works well enough for a lot of people, but it's possible that it could work even better for them and for even more people if we treated marijuana more like other medications.
I don't exactly have a grand plan on how to fix things. I don't want to make marijuana more expensive or inaccessible for the people who need it. I don't want to feed into the pockets of big pharma. But I do want to make sure that our treatments are as effective as possible, that we're treating marijuana seriously as a medication and that people view it as such, and that we're not just settling for our treatment options being "good enough" when we can do even better. We didn't stop at willow bark, we built on it to develop modern aspirin and other NSAIDs, and someday we will probably do the same for marijuana, there will probably come a day when almost no one will turn to plant-derived marijuana products for medical reasons because we will have long since isolated, synthesized, and developed entirely new classes of drugs based on what we learn from studying marijuana that do the same things more effectively, more safely, and with even less side-effects.
If we had an appropriate scheduling for it so that it could be properly researched and manufactured we could just treat it like every other plant-based medicine we have (of which there are VERY many) - isolate and extract the compounds you're interested in and recombine them in a pill or gel or aerosol form. Making supplements or tinctures or whatever, from cannabis, wouldn't be any more difficult than creating aspirin from willow. The only reason it's difficult is because it's so highly scheduled that nobody is allowed to work with it.
Op is a moron. Any decent bud tender can tell u exactly what that bud will do for you and if you get it wrong? Oh no nothing really catastrophic happens except u may get paranoid.
Ok now try that with any pill...oh ur dead? Yeah...
It's a plant. Plants should be legal to grow. Maybe sometimes you will have to take steps if you want to grow it and it's an invasive plant, but it's still a fucking plant.
I use cannabis medicinally, and it's true that I would prefer to vaporize it (I don't smoke) when I use it than take some sort of pill. Because it gives me very fast pain relief. I'm sure if inhaling ibuprofen worked much faster than taking a pill, people would do that too.
I also smoke it (I don't vaporize) medicinally for my leg and I can go from "literally can't stand up" to "pretty much fine" in like 4 tokes, it's amazing 👍
But one of the side effects I've been experiencing lately is that I'm always having a great time, which some people really seem to have a problem with 🤔 I can't figure it out.
I can't help but say commodity cannabis ruined weed though. Dudes should be growing it in their back yards and sharing it freely with their dawgs, not paying $300 an ounce at a dispensary that feels like the DMV. The cannabis industry MUST be deregulated.
We can only grow in Illinois with a valid medical card, otherwise it's a $200 ticket. The police union fought back when they wanted to let everyone grow.
I would hope that would also be changed with federal legalization. Getting the FDA involved shouldn't be a roadblock to that. The FDA doesn't get involved when you grow your own vegetables.
In seriousness backyard product does have risks, but so does dispensary stuff. A lot of these labs just rubber stamp stuff. I've read exposés on the cannabis industry that read like Upton Sinclair.
Our supply is kept artificially low by overregulation. You need something like a million dollars in liquid money to get the permits to grow commercially and they only give out a handful of licenses per year, ensuring that the rich get richer and everyone else gets fleeced. Still better than Iowa where "any amount" leads to jail time.
That blows. I've heard some people complain similarly here, but the bar seems at least somewhat lower.
I'm just thrilled I can go to a store with posted hours, rather than calling a guy who says to come to his house and then isn't there, tells you to wait for him, and two hours later finally shows up to tell you he doesn't have anything for you.
(Not that this was my normal experience, but it happened enough to make me despise most dealers.)
Is Michigan one of the states that they can't ship hemp to? I didn't think it was on the list. Eight horses hemp, flow gardens, hoku seed company... There's a ton of legal weed out there that's very reasonably priced.
Here it’s like $100-140/oz, but quality fell massively after legalization. Like, really, genuinely, the worst chronic from before legalization is better than all but the best after.
Seems like if they wanted to shut it down, rescheduling it first would be an unnecessary step since it's currently schedule one.
It will be a messy transition, as the article points out. But I doubt the point is to shut it down. Especially considering the political climate around cannabis and the messaging from the White House.
Unlikely. The public and political agendas are just the opposite for the two substances: most people support the expansion of cannabis products and oppose the expansion of nicotine products.
safe effective nicotine consumption were generally supported by the public too and was being ingrained in the culture in movies and tv
now it is combustible cigarettes with alcohol being heavily promoted again as well in television and film
if the US does not stop voting in senile past retirement age religious right leaning presidents who view any alteration in the citizen's conscience it might not ever change or get better
the synthetic nicotine being produce is done with green chemistry meaning no heavy metals used in synthesis
with the nicotine being lab made no ground pollutants such as lead and other heavy metals are present just like fake vanilla extract which most seasoning coming from India with polluted soil
also less soil less environmental impact
the ingredients have gotten safer over time as well also leading to changes in other industries
hugely better product both health and environmental and all around
not to mention not have the ill effects of second hand smoke
my own lung capacity was around 80% and dropping during the years was consuming combustible nicotine and cannabis products but now is above 90% had my lungs checked by a doctor
I agree, it's safer. But how can we know it's safe below a certain amount for lifelong vapers when there hasn't been enough time to do a long-term study?
Wouldn't (and I say this as a long-term cannabis vaporizer myself) putting anything into the lungs on a regular basis other than air be inherently unsafe long-term?
As flying squid helped me see, safer doesn't mean safe.
Nicotine alone can cause cancer and while vaping is 'safer' than tobacco, in that it's less carcinogenic, it is still a carcinogen. And because of the ROA, vaping is actually more addictive than cigarettes.
the government was able to shut down most of the vape companies
some of them were very up to code being made in clean rooms good enough to make pharmaceuticals
now we have big tobacco vapes mixed in with shoddy products
have you talked to industry leaders such as business owners of some of these vape companies?
nicotine and cannabis industry is in shambles due to bad policies and laws
no wonder look at the right leaning conservatives that keep getting voted in with the latest one having a prosecutor as a vice
cannabis being rescheduled and not legalized is a trojan horse designed to make the people feel complacent and happy with only extreme regulation and the disappearance of sustainable, innovative products being the end result
I see people vaping all over the place. If their goal was to shut down the industry, that sounds like a failure to me.
This also sounds like a failure of their goal:
Reported sales of cartridge products increased from $2.133 billion in 2020 to $2.496 billion in 2021; sales of disposable, non-refillable e-cigarette products increased from $261.9 million in 2020 to $267.1 million in 2021.
Sure the industry is gaining money, but you're ignoring specific company shutdowns and restrictions that shaped the industry out of the hands of certain players. There have been a lot of regulatory fingers in the pie, particularly above state level, that weren't aimed at making the populace safer but instead at making those companies unable to produce or sell their most popular products. There's also a lot of legal language bites like "e-cigarette" and "open container" that are seeing non-uniform interpretation in legal states, across vape legislature and cannabis legislature alike.
Draconic legislature isn't quite turning the country into a hellscape for consumers, sure. But it's clearly a possible side effect that isn't being considered, especially as states are beginning to take it upon themselves to start outlawing studied hemp-derived cannabinoids (like delta8/10 or THC-P or THC-A) that are provided for under the 2018 farm bill.
Tl;Dr while the industry is growing, it's clear it has enemies with legal power and that's the crux of the complaint.
Cool restatement. Did you actually read what I posted instead of snipping that post though? I acknowledge it isn't working, but you can CLEARLY see intent of decisions there skewed toward market control of a new industry, especially based on the similarities (Product control focused on appeal, not risk) of legislature brought forward compared to previous concerns
I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting what OP said and why I responded to it the way I did. OP claimed the goal was to shut the vaping industry down. I showed why that wasn't true. It's not my fault if you responded to me with some unrelated point.
You don't understand my point and you wanted to dunk on someone, it's cool. Keep posting every 2 minutes without actually reading, I'm sure the karma is good for something dude
My ex takes a related medicine for diabetes. It supposedly isn’t useful for weight loss and it is a more reasonable price. However because it’s a related medicine, people are using it for weight loss anyway. Our pharmacy warned us they can’t predictably get more because there’s been a run on it.
So I get what you’re saying. But this was inarguably a Trump admin thing, regardless of which part of the government or military actually carried out the plans. This sounds and feels like a thing he’d do, and in fact fully aligns with his bullshittery of calling Covid the “China virus” in countless press conferences around that time. It’s a deeply stupid tactic, because this is the sort of shit that diminishes the soft power of the US in the long term.
I would not be thrilled for newsome. He’s a snake that undercut the progressives in his state government multiple times. Shapiro has been decent. I would come out for him for sure. But one thing I know is that the weekend at Bernie’s situation we’re facing right now is about as bad of an option as we can have going into an election year.
I’m ok with it being expensive for non-diabetes cases because we do NOT want people using this for weight loss. There are already issues with intestinal linings weakening and other complications.
Folks: there’s no shortcut to losing weight.
Edit: overly simplified. It’s not just for diabetes but my larger point is legitimate medical cases. This of course includes some cases of obesity, and I’m glad it’s helped folks who need it.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted so much, it’s an interesting point. If you make it too cheap and it has a lot of side effects, you are t really saving anyone money. You’re not even improving their health in the long run.
That being said, I have no idea how bad the long term effects are.
Except it does seem rather odd to keep a medicine from people whose lives it could save (obesity causes a lot more problems than diabetes), because someone somewhere might try to abuse it. Frankly, if you want to voluntarily abuse a drug, great. My interest is in relieving the suffering caused by obesity, not protecting people from the Darwin awards.
Imagine saying that “insulin should be expensive because some people use it for suicide and it has side-effects.”
I didn’t think it was an abuse of the medication, I thought the comment was just discussing side effects and potential complications from regular use of it
Nope I am not engaging with this nonsense. Fluoride is perfectly safe in the water supply. Nobody batted an eye until the right latched onto it as another stupid culture war masking as concerns over personal health. Stop watching xXJoeFreedomXx videos and listen to health professionals. That’s all I’m saying on the matter and it’s for the benefit of onlookers more than you.
The brown spots are purely cosmetic and a minor trade off for the benefits.
Now I’m actually done. The fact that mom‘s for liberty is the biggest force behind this ridiculous “movement“ should indicate to you how bullshit it is.
That's exactly what the fuck I said... I literally never mentioned anything about it being "unsafe"... Only that it was one well known side effect of fluoride being in our water.
You're just not paying attention to what I said because you want to defend your silly position so badly.
FWIW, the most commonly known side effects of semaglutide aren't particularly dangerous either (and in fact, most are more temporary than brown teeth).
That’s not what I said. I’m saying we don’t want this being widely available and prescribed like tic tacs because people think it’ll make them look like a magazine cover. The side effects can be considerable. A doctor needs to be involved if you think you need ozempic, although sadly many are all too happy to rubber stamp it. Still, it’s being used as a shortcut by many and it’s not good for them.
If a doctor prescribes it for real reasons I respect that but right now it’s a celebrity weight loss “hack”
My friend has had 3 patients walk because she won’t prescribe ozempic to them. They are not obese or have some major medical consideration. They want to use it as a substitute for a diet that they don’t even really need.
The whole prescription system is a rent-seeking scheme that enriches various middlemen, including your friend.
How far have we fallen as a civilization that people have to meekly seek permission to take drugs? Bodily autonomy doesn’t extend to medicine, is that it? The unfathomable hypocrisy.
Why not? Is addiction illegal? At most I'd say education about the medication should be more available.
Edit obviously addiction is terrible but it's a slippery slope to say " you can't take this drug because of addiction risks" into "you can't take this drug because I find it morally wrong"
There are compounding pharmacies in every major city in the US who can provide generic versions of these medicines.
They're not going to be covered by insurance that way and they're typically still not cheap exactly but they are cheaper than the brand names and available as an oral medication in addition to the self administered weekly shots.
The only "shortage" has been of the proprietary injectors used by the major brand names.
You do realize that’s exactly what Wegovy is, right? Ozempic was being prescribed off-label for weight loss so much, it was severely impacting supply for diabetics who needed it to manage their diabetes. They put the drug through a second round of FDA testing to get approval as a weight loss drug.
And, as someone taking Wegovy for weight loss… it’s no shortcut. It absolutely makes it easier to control your appetite but the side effects are non-trivial. I’ve struggled with my weight my entire life and I feel lucky I wasn’t heavier when I started, but before this I’ve been anywhere between 235 and 320 up and down for the last 15 years. This medication makes me feel, finally, like I’ve got a shot at losing the weight and getting it to a safe level.
Now… if you’re talking about the people who want to take it for 2 months to lose some vanity weight before beach season… I absolutely agree.
It's very common for people who are obese to have prediabetic A1C levels show up in their blood work.
There are absolutely side effects and they're different for different people but some common short term ones are nausea, vomiting, gassiness, stomach discomfort, and fatigue.
I asked mine kinda like "whats the deal with these new medications?" Explaining I knew only a bit about the difference between the two, higher dose weight-loss (wegovy) VS. meant for diabetics (ozempic).
The poor soul in the waiting room behind me.. Must have waited 30 minutes beyond the initial appointment because my doctor was so excited passionate about what these drugs can help with. He talked about a full hour about it.
My takeaways (I'm not a doctor or with a perfect memory, so I might get this a little wrong):
He somewhat likened our 'automation systems' in the brain to can't being able to discern between 'starvation mode' and 'plentiful bounty of food' mode. So starving yourself for example to lose weight can still chemically cause your body to 'hold' weight for example; sensing that you're at threat of death if it continues for an extended time. Likewise when food is abundant, it can still hold weight because it's protecting you from future potential death by starvation. These changes are not something we can consciously control for good reason. Imagine you can stop your own heart with a thought.
I'm sure there is much more to it, but this 'automation system' in the brain sticks out.
Lastly, he said that if we wait a bit there will be competing drugs and 'older version' of these new drugs which become out of patent.. And cheaper. So I'll go talk to him in the autumn for a refresher and update.
For that drug yes. He did mention that there was something older, which these new ones are based on, which are coming out of patent. I believe it was liraglutide (victoza). Still seems to require daily injections I believe 😑 but for people who may need this, it's maybe worth it. I used to take daily injections for allergies (slowly strengthened over time) and others get it for diabetes anyway. especially if it is cheaper and with generics.
Ah yeah, I know what you're referring to, and yes I think you're right, it's daily and I don't think as effective but when your options are limited by insert rant about US "healthcare" here probably better than nothing.
I am specifically talking about the massive surge in people using it to shed vanity weight. I completely agree it has legitimate weight management uses and I’m glad it’s helped you.
I don't believe it's actually $90 anywhere, that must be because of some sort of subsidy.
In Denmark where Novo resides, the price is $200+ for the lowest dose. And Denmark allows parallel import if it can be bought cheaper elsewhere.
USA has a very different market, with extreme penalties in case something goes wrong, that mandates higher self insurance, and sales channels that are almost built for abuse by almost everybody. I seriously doubt Novo makes 6 times more on Wegovy than they do elsewhere. The problem is in the American system.
That said, I agree with Bernie Sanders that there's a problem that needs to be fixed.
EDIT:
$200 is for 4 doses enough for 4 weeks.
I bet the insane prices in USA, are mostly due to insurance companies and whole-sellers exploiting the lack of structure and regulation in the US system. Novo cannot take more that those are willing to pay, and if insurance chooses not to cover Wegovy, Novo sells nothing through that company. Insurance companies are in control more than anybody in USA.
If the prices are as legitimate as you suggest then surely that will be easily revealed by the subpoena'd accounting books and Novo Nordisk will be cleared of suspicion. Wouldn't that be the system working as intended?
Sanders successfully ran a similar playbook on executives from Merck and Johnson & Johnson earlier this year. Under the threat of subpoena, the company CEOs agreed to testify at a hearing on why companies charge more for medicines in the United States than abroad before the subpoena vote actually happened.
This move is the latest maneuver in Sanders’ boldest pressure campaign yet to browbeat companies into lowering patients’ drug costs. Unlike other targets of Sanders’ ire that were drugs based on decades-old technology or developed in part with federal funding, Novo’s weight loss medicines in particular are innovative, effective, and wildly popular.
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