I don't know. I find the underlying principle of kagi a bit problematic. For example, look at what they say in this piece here. I get that any search engine that is "free" but sponsored by ads is gonna be skewed towards the advertisers. But like kagi phrases their response, it sounds somewhat classist. If you can afford a good search engine, you deserve better search results. If you don't, well, your bad. I mean, it's OK if they finance themselves by being a paid service. But this should be only a necessary first step before finding other ways to finance themselves.
Remember the first time you used Google search? It was like magic. After years of progressively worsening search quality from Altavista and Yahoo, Google was literally stunning, a gateway to the very best things on the internet.
No, I'm not having that! That's rewriting of history. I remember when Google came out, it was pretty much as good as Altavista and no more. It had the additional appeal that it looked (for the time) unique and fresh and had a weird name, I remember getting my friends to try this "weird new search engine that might someday beat Altavista" but it never revolutionised anything in terms of search results at the time.
Also Altavista was not getting progressively worse, I still remember the days when you could type a simple dictionary word into a search engine and have it return 0 results. Altavista is what changed that, not Google.
No matter how many times people claim "X search engine" is universally better than Google, it has just never been true in my experience. And this is coming from someone who puts up with the frustrations of other search engines to avoid Google's data harvesting. Like Google's search engine can have rapidly deteriorated and still be miles better than the competition. Both can be true, but people always seem to act like the SEO spam has made it unusable and that is just not reality at all.
Okay, but it doesn't know where I am. When I type 'dunkin', Google doesn't just know I want hours for a dunkin donuts, it knows which two or three stores I'm probably looking at hours for and it does it without me having to specify.
If I'm looking stuff up on my phone or just want a quick answer, I actually do want the context of all that data on me. I like that when I type the word 'glamour' it knows I'm probably thinking of the bard subclass, and that when I type 'Conan' it knows I probably mean Exiles, not O'Brien. I mean like, I know it doesn't know these things, but it fills in that gap much faster.
I do like the way their search is layed out for doing something more complex, though. It really is a better designed search engine, but I feel like a search engine is the one place I want data collection of some kind, literally because it benefits me.
Wow, it's been ages since I've used google without a layer of privacy in between and haven't realized how comfortable it would be with all its spying power enabled. But anyways, I find it scary that companies like google try to get so much information about you that they then sell to third parties. I'd rather have less comfortability if it means I have control over my own data. And I guess Kagi could be better in this regard if they value your privacy while still having some data on you.
Honestly, if I could get Kagi to slurp up all my Google data and use it without any extra clicks, I'd probably switch. I don't like having it sold to third parties, but it saves a ton of time when used for the actual reason they ought to have it in the first place.
I also don't imagine that stopping using google would have a tremendous effect on the amount of data gathered on me at this point. Like, I've taken my personal projects off of google so they won't scrape the data, but half the internet is gathering metadata. It's not going to stop all the sites I visit from gathering it all together. Admittedly, uBlock might in cases where tracking is built into ads.
But like, weighing it against making my ability to move through the world more functional, my spite for Google's information vacuum isn't so great that I can't just like, use the thing anyway. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and I'm not really sure there's such a thing as a moral or ethical human society. There's already a lot of other shit I'm forced to tolerate out of necessity just to be a human being, and while I don't love something else being added to the pile, at least it's not like tortured animals or intentionally bombing children.
To be clear, I would love an alternative and have actively sought one. Within the past 6 months I've tried both DuckDuckGo and Kagi. I stopped using both out of frustration with the need to constantly specify my location.
Yeah, I get that. While "no ethical consumption under capitalism" shouldn't be used to justify passivity, each individual person has their own limits to what they can reasonably achieve. Sometimes when I'm traveling and my anxiety peaks, I also eat dairy products/eggs because I cannot mentally afford to search for vegan alternatives. It's so hard to always keep the balance between doing what you can and trying to stay sane.
I've been using startpage for years and don't really miss the missing location features. But I hardly leave the house anyways.
I've wanted to test out Kagi for some time, but I don't really do a hell of a lot of deep-dive searches anymore. I mostly passively read a combination of RSS, stuff I see on Lemmy, and videos that I still watch on the old site while not logged in. And some YouTube stuff.
When I do search for something, it's typically something that I hear about in a podcast and I wanna know more and in the moment I just use my default (goog). I'm not thinking of Kagi cause I'm listening to something already and thinking about that.
10 bucks is too much though for a search engine, at least for me. Especially now that I use LLMs to replace most of the usecases of web searches.
I never used Google much anyway the last few years, I use duckduckgo which isn't quite as bad as google is now. Yeah I know it's just microsoft bling with a lick of paint but they didn't enshittify as much as google. But $10 + VAT is just a lot of money in Spain.
Maybe I'll try the $5 plan though, I never come even close to 300 searches a month anyway.
Edit: SearXNG sounds much better actually, thanks!! <3
Edit2: I installed SearXNG and love it <3 Really thanks for the tips here.
stract has same issue mentioned above where search engines are actually the only time i want data on me to be easily accessible. not being able to search "food near me" is frustrating, and no privacy-centered google alternative i've been happy with has had that feature. im fine with my location and other relevant metadata on me getting used in a search, as long as that metadata is in a black box restricted to me that doesn't create a profile for advertising companies
Yeah that makes sense. My comment had more to do with the potential of a open source search engine/crawler than anything it currently does. Though I feel the optics feature might be able to account for that eventually.
Promising, but not ready for primetime. I spent the last two days using it as my phone's default search after you mentioned it, and... well, I went back to Google, at least for now.
This is a useful take: I too will use LLMs for search-- but not for search for journal articles with data and evidence. LLMs too easily confabulate these.
LLM-as-search is fantastic when you want a no-bullshit statistical result for what you're looking for when you're wanting an overview or interactive tutorial.
As long as it has footnoting so I can see where each piece of information was sourced from, AI chat has its use cases. Without that I genuinely do not see the point at all. It's like when people "ask Google" something and just blindly trust the highlighted "answer" as infallible truth. It's just a really, really bad habit to develop and I wish more people understood this.
Not infallible truth. But very often it's something that is just for personal use.
Some things I've asked it recently were like "Which torch is smaller out of these 5 models?". Once I find which one I want it's easy to verify. Or "what does this Spanish expression mean?" or "how do I do ...".
Not everyone uses it to try and write authoritative stuff. And Google is full of clickbaity "comparison sites" that are nothing but fake advertising.
All of those questions you asked it return authoritative answers which you take on face value, unless you spend extra time fact checking them yourself.
Yeah but accuracy isn't a given with the other methods either. If I ask some randos on reddit I won't get a perfect answer either. If I google specs or reviews online they are often biased, wrong (think the magical Chinese lumens of torches) or even literally fraudulent paid reviews too.
So yeah for me the LLM output is more than good enough with a bit of verification if necessary.
I don't really understand why people are suddenly hung up about holding LLMs up to this lofty ideal of an unbiased super-truth. Where did that requirement come from all of a sudden? It's not really realistic and not something we've ever had in the past.
I feel the same about self-driving systems. People get all hung up if they crash once in a while, expecting them to be 100% perfect in all situations. But ignoring the concept that they already might be a hell of a lot safer than human drivers. They fail in different situations generally but why do we suddenly demand perfection?
Sure but in the article he says that he hadn't even heard of it until some friends mentioned it "last month", which would have been March of 2024. Taking a few weeks to feel it out is one thing but to have not even know it existed until last month is wild.
We don't know what Cory does all day. We know he has a family, I think he has a kid, that means that he has responsibilities that don't involve blogging. For all we know, at the end of the day he curls up with a dead tree book and unplugs to relax. He might not be as online as his overall style might make him appear and we don't know what all circles of people he runs with, so it's entirely possible that he just heard about it.
Writing also need vast amount research, which also involves a search engine, which at some point in time you begin to get fed up with spam, and maybe just may be, if you're actually smart as people think you are, you begin to look for an alternative.
but I also don't know what to tell people who believe everything they read on the internet.
Exactly, We don't know what he does all day and it's creepy you have this weird imagination going through. Like seriously? He probably could be checking the balance that kagi sent him for this post.
Why are people so obsessed with internet personalities just because they say "nice" things you like? This is what every one of them does.
Requires a log-in. That means that there's absolutely no way to anonymize your searches. At least if I want to do an anonymous search, I can open my laptop, boot up in Tails, and search DDG on Tor. With a required log-in (and billing that presumably doesn't include a Monero option), you can't make that work.
Whether this is bad depends on your threat model. Additionally, you must also consider that other search engines are able to easily identify you without you explicitly identifying yourself. If you can't fool https://abrahamjuliot.github.io/creepjs/, you certainly can't fool Google for instance. And that's even ignoring the immense identifying potential of user behaviour.
Billing supports OpenNode AFAICT which I guess you could funnel your Moneros through but meh.
When I open Tor browser on my desktop--not in Tails--that site doesn't even load. So either it is fooling it, or it requires javascript to run, which I have turned off by default in Tor.
I genuinely won't even use Brave indexes on my SearXNG instance; I have the engines disabled. My search quality has not suffered; as most of my results end up being DDG or Yahoo anyways; and Brave was only ever duplicating results from other engines anyways.
That whole situation was such an overblown idiotic mess. Kagi has always used indices from companies that do far more unethical things than committing the extreme crime of having a CEO who has stupid opinions on human rights.
I 100% agree with Vlad's response to this whole thing and anyone who thinks otherwise should question what exactly it is they're criticising.
I don't like Brave (super shady IMHO) and certainly not their CEO but I didn't sign up for a 100% ethically correct search engine, I signed up for a search engine with innovative features and good search results. The only viable alternatives are to use 100% not ethically correct search indices with meh (Google) to bad (Bing, DDG) search results. If you're going to tell me how Google and M$ are somehow ethical, I'm going to have to laugh at you.
The whole argument amounts to whining about the status quo and bashing the one company that tries anything to change it. The only way to get away from the Google monopoly is alternative indices. Yes those alternatives may not be much more ethical than friggin Google. So what.
You can't really engage as a consumer without enabling shitty practices on some level, and that's particularly true of electronics.
The phone you're using to access Beehaw? Assembled by child labor or wage slaves somewhere in Asia. Even if you assembled it yourself, the parts were manufactured unethically.
It's not just Amazon or Nestle. You might as well criticize someone for breathing because unethical consumption, on some level, is inevitable, particularly so if you live in a capitalist country.
I use Brave because its ad block feature works better than the others I've tried, plain and simple.
But, by all means, people can still be as holier than thou as they like.
The phone you're using to access Beehaw? Assembled by child labor or wage slaves somewhere in Asia. Even if you assembled it yourself, the parts were manufactured unethically.
which is one of the reasons why I own a Fairphone.
and sure, you can't avoid all bad choices, but everyone draws a line somewhere. and when a techbro makes a techbroy post about how eVErYThiNg iS pOLiTiCiZeD ThESe dAyS and how that's supposedly stopping innovation, because people like me don't want him to work with a guy with a history of opposing our rights, then I stop having confidence in him and cancel my subscription because I don't want to support him financially anymore.
people like me don't want him to work with a guy with a history of oppressing our rights
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but what search do you use that relies on a more ethical index? I don't use SearXNG, but as far as I can tell, even something like that relies on other indices, like Google, Bing, and Brave (which seems to be configurable). Are you suggesting you use a different index that comes from a more ethical company, or do you just not like Vlad's response?
Are you suggesting you use a different index that comes from a more ethical company
I don't, I use a mixture of Startpage and DDG, but I'm always for a lookout for other options and also don't sign up for a subscription to throw my money at them every month.
Don't get me wrong. I do the best I can to be ethical in my choices, but it's just a pet peeve of mine to see people behaving in a holier-than-thou when it's simply impossible to achieve what they're pretending to achieve.
To add, from what I understand at least, Kagi does build its own index for accessing smaller sites. To some extent, results are also served by a custom index, meaning some percentage of results do not come from [your disliked companies] and instead come directly from Kagi. It doesn't seem like a significant percentage of results come from that index, but it supposedly is still >0%.
Personally I mostly use Kagi for the ability to put Reddit on the bottom of the results, MDN to the top, and otherwise prioritize sites in ways that I want but which I know are purely based on my own opinions. It works well for my usecase, and I don't have to scroll through a bunch of sponsored links before finding my search results. Also, the recent integration with Wolfram|Alpha has been convenient with a couple of searches, like one where I needed the prime factors of some numbers.
I'm not trying at all to disagree with the idea of being ethical in how you send your dollars, but I'm curious how much is prioritized actual harm to suffering people in the real world when you do this.
And ha, yeah sorry if it was overly snarky, I just see some people where "oh my GAWD you said the wrong thing in your press release" is their only barometer of ethical behavior and was just wanting to poke at you if that was the case. 🙂
I use Kagi, stract, and a self-hosted searx-ng instance. Kagi is so well polished that it's what I use most of the time, but I keep an eye on the other two and continually ask myself if I'm ready to drop Kagi to get away from financially supporting Google and Microsoft.
Cory Doctorow is a smart guy, and has some great takes. But he also pays for Xitter Blue (or whatever they call it) so do with that info what you will.
The way I read it on his blog, it seemed he was paying for it. It's entirely possible I misunderstood. I didn't know what his Xitter handle is, I haven't use that site in years.
What are you talking about, I don't see any tick. Are you talking about the big text that says "NONCONSENSUAL BLUE TICK"?
Maybe I am missing something but it kinda looks like Lemmy is engaging once again in a favorite activity, finding reasons why someone is "problematic" whether true or not, because that's more fun than just engaging in reasonable posting and commenting and letting people be worth listening to sometimes
Like why did 5 people upvote just pure combative nonsense. What did they see in it that led them to say "yeah this resonates with me, fuck this guy for objectively false reasons! I support this message!"
I think it's because people are taking their frustrations out on whatever seems to make people think something might be on the upswing. Even better, because you can't necessarily see who upvoted nobody can call them on it.
It's like the folks who go to see a movie and gush about how awesome it was when you're sitting around shooting the shit, but the moment they get on the Net they trash it in as many ways as possible.
More or less agreed. Side note though, votes on Lemmy aren't private. Admins or self-hosters can always see them if they care, and other platforms (notably Friendica and kbin/mbin depending on version and config) display the identities of people voting to everyone. It seems wrong to me that most Lemmy-style platforms don't make this clear.
I personally have not found Kagi’s default search results to be all that impressive, contrary to what most users seem to feel. I don’t know. When ddg and Google fail me, I will try Kagi and I think maybe only once or twice has it actually made finding what I’m looking for any easier.
I will mention though, you can do a lot of personalization on the results unlike other engines. So maybe if I took the time to customize, I might feel differently.
Downvote me into oblivion but Kagi ain't shit. It's a glorified Google frontend. The author is right that the web is filled with AI generated articles and fake reviews and lists but Kagi is not immune to this enshittification.
I even tried the same query the author was bitching about.
Here is Kagi's first two links for top 10 air purifiers. Notice how the first result is a BS website called top10.com and the second one is one of the "fake review" websites .
So $10/month to get the same shit? No thank you. I agree that Google turned to shit compared to what it was but it is still the best search engine out there. Now if the article was about privacy concerns then they would have a point. Which is what Kagi is all about anyway. So let's stop the fucking act.
I searched both Cory Doctorow's post and the linked 404media article in his post for "air purifier" and found nothing. What author are you referencing?
I wouldn't use "air purifier" as a metric, since it was already a big public story that surely any search engine that's even half paying attention would have made sure the results for are good. Probably some other consumer good is better for an un-preannounced test run.
(Also I'm not sure that searching "top 10 air purifier" and complaining that you got a top result of top10.com/air-purifiers and that's not what you wanted makes a ton of sense. FWIW, I did try "air purifier" just out of curiosity and saw a very clear result that DDG had the best results, Google second, and Kagi third.)
I repeated it for "good wireless router" and saw different results; for them, the outcomes were fairly similar with Kagi somewhat better (returning Wirecutter as the top result, and an obselete Stack Exchange answer as the 2nd, which okay it's not right but I get where you're coming from sir), and Google and DDG as secondary (returning PCMag and CNet at the top and Wirecutter only further down below).
The nice thing is that I can customize it however I like too; change weights, choose which engines to pull from always, or even from search to search; so I'm not getting cruft.
SearXNG always rearranges the crap most engines serve to the bottom without fail.
My understanding is that a locally hosted SearXNG instance doesn't really give you any privacy, unless you "dilute" your searches by letting others do searches from your instance too.
To be honest the "Privacy" aspect can be taken care of in other ways; like using a VPN for query dilution, for example. You don't have to recruit 100 mechanical turks to do junk searches for you; although there are browser addons that can in fact do this automated searching for you...I've run them before.
SearXNG is a front-end that protects your privacy still. Hosting it locally dilutes it some; but provides maximal control; as you can use VPNs and control things much more tightly than you could if you hosted it elsewhere.
It's not even comparable in quality. It's like almost trolling to even suggest they are in the same league. If you don't want to spend 10 dollars, fine, but maybe stop pretending that your instance is somehow the best quality search engine that exists... :)
Your argument clearly shows that you fail to see the benefits of doing it yourself. I get quality results from my local instance due to my persistence and work put in to adjust the settings necessary. I've balanced the privacy and functionality of the instance to fit my needs and it costs me nothing but a few minutes of my time each week to do so.
Kagi doing it for $10 a month sounds like they're turning a neat profit off of you; and you're refusing to accept that I have achieved levels of search competence that Kagi has without paying for Kagi or even using their free searches or service.
Whether or not it makes sense to you value-wise to pay or not pay for Kagi does not matter in this discussion. it only matters that none of the things Kagi can do that I find useful are things that cannot be done with SearXNG.
Dunno, I got entirely different results. Reddit, homeairguides, forbes, a bunch of listicles like consumerreports, wired, ny times, cnet and whatnot, and other websites.
All the LLM-generated "top 10" listicles are grouped into one large block I can safely ignore. (I could hide them entirely but the visual grouping allows for easy mental filtering, so I haven't bothered.) Your weird top10 fake site does not show up.
But yes, as the linked article says, Kagi is primarily a proxy for Google with some extra on top. This is, unfortunately, a feature as Google's index still reigns supreme for general purpose search. It absolutely is bad and getting worse but sadly still the best you can get. Using only non-Google indices would just result in bad search results.
The Google-ness is somewhat mitigated by Kagi-exclusive features such as the LLM garbage grouping.
What Google also cannot do is highlighted in my screenshot: You can customise filtering and ranking.
The first search result is a Reddit thread with some decent discussion because I configured Kagi to prefer Reddit search results. In the case of household appliances, this doesn't do a whole lot as I have not researched trusted/untrusted sources in this field yet but it's very noticeable in fields like programming where I have manually ranked sites.
Kagi is not "all about" privacy. It's a factor, sure but ultimately you still have to trust a U.S. company. Better than "trusting" a known abuser (Google, M$) but without an external audit, I wouldn't put too much wight into this.
The index ain't it either as it's mostly Google though sometimes a bit better.
What really sets it apart is the features. Customised ranking aswell as blocking some sites outright (bye bye pinterest and userbenchmark) are immensely useful. So are filtering garbage results that Google still likes to return.
I started using Kagi a few months before $10 became unlimited queries.
When I first switched I'd still, occasionally, swap back to google using bangs because I had to unlearn all the hacks I had to make Google turn up useful things. Now I can't go back, Google is unsable without those hacks. Its barely usable with them.
Plus Kagi has a "fediverse forum" lens that lets me search Lemmy much more effectively than Lemmy's search.