futurebird , (edited )
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

It's like we all decided that imperialism is bad, which it is, so the solution is no one talks about imperial ambitions or power unless it's to insult a bad guy.

So in the US press you might hear Russia call imperialist, but you'll never get an honest discussion of the vectors of American imperial power, this means that US foreign policy is inscrutable to most Americans.

"Why are we giving Ukraine so much money?"

Like we are handing out gift cards, Benjamins and Obama phones.

1/

Stegosaurus ,
@Stegosaurus@sciences.social avatar

@futurebird

Your reasoning is solid.

US politics is emotional,
and reason is ignored.

Slava Ukraine.

futurebird OP ,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

I feel like this shouldn't even need to be explained, but given what people will fall for I guess it does: the aid to Ukraine is weapons and technology, most of which we manufacture ourselves and hey now that's good for the economy too. Made in the USA and all that. But also, the opportunity to maintain US hegemony is of infinite value from the US imperialist perspective.

To pick the winners of regional conflicts, to pick which conflicts occur.

Power.

2/

futurebird OP ,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

Normally "the right" is so unquestioning of the obvious "good" of the US having more power that these discussions don't even happen. So maybe it's a good thing. Democrats need to stop being so euphemistic about what the US is and how it operates. Their squeamishness with running an imperial state has meant they fail to convey the goals of the US to the general public, even as they support those aims without question. It leads to a contradiction that the far right can exploit.

3/3

futurebird OP ,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

I support this aid personally because Russia shows every sign of enacting an older kind of imperialism one based on invasion and displacement. There isn't any hope of peace when states tie their economic growth to acquiring territory. There isn't any end to suffering. Such a state can only continue expanding until it fails. We don't need one of those.

Soft power is full of flaws, but like a cold war it is better than the alternative.

Can't people see that it would NEVER end?

futurebird OP ,
@futurebird@sauropods.win avatar

I could wish the US were invested in this question for these more idealistic reasons.

Democrats would like to pretend that is all that is about, but ... such altruism isn't logical and everyone can see that. That's why the other reasons the less selfless ones ought to be discussed more openly.

Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense and that makes room for conspiracy.

martinhowitt ,
@martinhowitt@urbanists.social avatar

@futurebird strongly agree with this. It's an investment with a clearly defined future economic and diplomatic payoff. Also the ROI is pretty good.

tuban_muzuru ,

@futurebird

1/ Since its bloody inception - and its bloodier Civil War, the USA has been accused of acting like an empire.

Yet it's never had an emperor. Came kinda close, with Andrew Jackson, but even he had domestic constraints.

US foreign policy is brain damaged, a four-year cycle of Groundhog Days, with a different jackass in the driver's seat. Our enemies can wait us out - and here we are, "Vote for Biden or it's shit and ruin for us all!"

Virginicus ,
@Virginicus@universeodon.com avatar

@futurebird It would be nice if people on the American Left could explain how they benefit from empire, so they understand what they’d be giving up. (As a former young man who didn’t die in a war, I am heavily invested.)

moira ,
@moira@mastodon.murkworks.net avatar

@futurebird Oh, absolutely. Russia and its propagandists are saying that's what they're doing. In words!

I mean, in exactly those words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_kxmbNcEqE

18+ ahelwer ,
@ahelwer@discuss.systems avatar

@futurebird I don't think it's true that it would never end. History is filled with a lot more two-countries-sharing-a-border conflicts than is filled with expansionist empires. The thing that's getting to me is the sixty billion dollars we are conjuring out of nowhere and dumping into weapon manufacturing just for Ukraine, which I disagree is a good thing, and also just the unbelievable scale of that number; that's nearly $100k per homeless person.

robotistry ,
@robotistry@sciencemastodon.com avatar

@futurebird This is an essential point: "There isn't any hope of peace when states tie their economic growth to acquiring territory."

War can be a short term economic driver in terms of technology development and production , but it's an economic driver built on suffering and scarcity.

Wars are doubly bad now, because we need to address climate change with the intensity and focus we reserve for them and we need the time / financial security / attention / prosperity they cost us.

iinavpov ,
@iinavpov@mastodon.online avatar

@futurebird
I typically think of the US as an accidental empire (post 19th century episodes) that denies it's one, and doesn't quite operate as one.

But because it's been trying so hard over decades to prevent Europe from arming itself properly, it's now responsible for helping, lest people get really angry.

And no one wants an economic war with the EU...

VirginiaHolloway ,

@futurebird This is a great point. Democrats need to put some swagger in our foreign policy goals. The extreme irony is that Trump is appeasing the powerful (Putin, Kim, Xi) where it counts, while Biden is standing up to them, but because - a few Dark Brandon meme aside - Biden's not framing it in terms of raw power people that message gets lost.

jakemiller ,
@jakemiller@federate.social avatar

@futurebird Off the top of my head, it strikes me that “the right” is always in favor of their own power. Historically, that’s US power internationally. But domestically, it’s destroying (federal) government that they can’t control. Consistent if they’re very selfish and self-centered.

And so blocking funding for Ukraine means increased power for whom? Not just their imperialist ally, but also the guy who called for blocking it. Trump is already back in foreign policy.

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