This meme is the classic them vs us, which by itself is how facism starts.
The world is not so black and white. If I was American and could vote, then I would vote some third party that actually represents my views, since that is the only choice that would make sense. Also tankies criticised both trump and biden as we'll, it's not bad to be against the mainstream, if both options are shit.
If everyone would think more critical this situation would not exist.
Nobody wants it to be us vs. them but as you say fascist movements are us vs. them. When there are fascist movements in existence it is us vs. them whether you want it to be or not because they make it them vs. us. It doesn't matter how hard you hold your eyes shut and cover your ears, the fascists are there and if you're not in their movement they are against you.
It's not all doom and gloom yet. Most fascist movements fade away and die out. But it behooves the non-fascists to help that outcome occur. Pretending fascists don't exist doesn't help achieve that outcome and risks there being a very doom and gloom outcome.
Tankie: "I convinced 20 Democratic Party voters to stay at home (and did the same for 0 Republican Party voters). Wait until Democratic politicians see that more voters favored the far right party. Then they're going to move left and fall on their knees and beg me to forgive them."
(Cue scene: swastika-adorned tanks rolling past the window)
"Stupid liberals, unwilling to fight the fascists like us true leftists." (Watches tanks and twiddles thumbs.) (Fetches keyboard.) "Let's tell everyone online that it's their own fault and they deserve this." (Sudden sound of harsh knocking on front door.)
At best, their actions will "only" cause another grid-locked presidency where progressives can't get their reforms to pass (which will then be used as the reason to abandon the likely last line of non-violent defense against fascists).
If you're out here everyday arguing Tankies are Fascists, then it is a bit curious you'd make something where 80,001 fascists are protrayed and the one fascist that actively doesn't vote for fascism, the tankie, is considered the problem.
Out of all the 80,001 fascists: this one chose to abstain from voting for fascism. That one deserves the scrutiny, the criticism, the exorication, because...
Because tankies pretend, and try to convince others, that they aren't fascists, and that helping fascism along is actually fighting fascism.
Conservatives rarely tell you that they AREN'T trying to get Donald Trump in the White House so he can Make America Great Again. Tankies often claim that, despite working towards that goal.
I don't give a fuck about what fascist tankies themselves do, they're a lost cause, busy sucking off dictators because "Murder of Muslims and LGBT folk is BASED when you do it under a red flag!" I do give a fuck about their messaging being loudly and repeatedly parroted like Republicans in 2004 crying "RAISE THE TERROR ALERT" like it fucking meant something.
Consistent application of the law hasn't stopped them with Roe v Wade. It's not going to stop them anywhere else. Their motivation to maintain power, control, and the status quo takes priority over all. They'll just find some bullshit reason to rule how they like, such that rules apply for others but not themselves.
They could rule per the compact clause that the compact wasn't allowed, but reading that clause its very clearly a military/defense clause and not a voting one. Fair amount of depth there.
It started as a name to use against militaristic anarchists that argued that only violence can save us.
Now it seems more like something MAGA uses obfuscate and confuse. It's very VERY similar to Pinko from the Macarthy era.
"I don't like what you say; but you used some keywords that match with this word I've heard other people use against you so I'll use it too"
Ultimately it's playground name calling when the other person isn't listening. (Or a bot or paid troll )
As an anarcho communist, I'm still voting for Biden because I'm not A FUCKING MORON.. (Not name calling. This is fact backed by evidence 😉) and this whole business annoys me.
The term "tankie" was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.
It did not start with militant anarchists and has nothing to do with whether violence can save us or not. It was, and is still, about whether or not you support ML dictators and brush away their obvious failures.
There is no McCarthy Committee today looking for Tankie supporters in the US. There are people who make excuses for the genocides and repression of dictators who wore red, and there are people who don't want a movement to free humanity tied to the shackles of its worst attempts.
I use the term because I don't want my advocacy for a system designed to improve the lives of every person on earth, granting them maximal freedom, to be defined by the failures of men in the past who thought the only way to accomplish that was to murder and silence everything in the way of their personal pursuit of power.
A subgroup of people on the left who believe in communism and mostly hold pro-Russia and pro-China views, while often having a "doomer" mentality in regard to the US.
Unfortunately, that has them made very susceptible to Russian propaganda, to the point where they're now doing the bidding of Russia and helping fascists rise to power.
The mechanisms are similar to MAGA. They've disconnected from classical media and their echo chambers censor posts that highlight positive developments in the US or posts critical of Russia/China. Once inside, their world view collides with the outside and it's hard to get out again. Similarly to Russians and Republicans, they vilify liberals ("liberals are complicit in xy", "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds", "Marx warned liberalism inevitably leads to fascism", etc.).
On here, they're largely the people dissuading US Democratic Party voters from turning out, via "both sides bad" and recently via claim-to-purity (I'm sure you've encountered one of those "genocide joe" posts, which are kinda awkward, since tankies commonly support/deny China's genocide on the Uyghurs and Russia's genocide on Ukrainians).
Its existence stems from people defending the massacre at Tiannenmen square.
I dont know if you or the person you picked it up from made this up but that is not the origin of the term.
The term "tankie" was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.
Tankies are pro authoritarian, and always have been.
Linkerbaan believes the murder of civilians is 'targeted resistance' because the civilians were under a regime supported by the West. They're not arguing in good faith.
Fuck discourse. I'm looking for like-minded people to fight fascism with me while telling authenticity tripping lefties who are on the fence to pull their heads out of their asses to help prevent a fascist from getting power again.
For all the non-Americans out there who don't have their own fascism problem in their nations--first off, that's nice, lucky you and secondly, sorry.
Look at this fucking tankie over here amirite guys? Fucking guy thinks he'll replace one authoritative regimen with his own but this one will be ok cuz its his.. right guys!
Nope it's purely an ideological conflict. If you're a libertarian then you don't support government, you believe the free market can work without regulation. Which leaves us with Anarcho-Capitalism. And at that point what amount of social justice or equality or anything are we achieving? It's going to be kind of hard to form a union when Shell Motor Corp troops execute anyone found with a vote card.
Oh sorry, you're the "authoritarianism is when self defense, ergo short tempered dictator with frivolous pet project is good" type of "leftist" (sic)!🤣
"I have been heard loud and clear. Now I sit and lay back like I always do anyway, and wait while fondling my purity then absent-mindedly yet lovingly sniffing my fingers, any moment now they will cater to me."
At this point you guys should just take all the time it takes to argue "tankies" for HOURS at end and make these low tier memes and just form your own political party.
Oh, the massive hypocrisy of Biden refusing to swallow his Zionist principles and stop their Genocide, whilst at the same time sending his tribe's peons around to try and convince millions of people to swallow their Humanist principles and vote for a guy who supports Genocide.
Biden could pretty much guarantee a win tomorrow by announcing that it has been determined that Israel is indeed committing war crimes, followed by cutting support for them as per the Law when the recipient of help is committing such crimes, ideally followed by sanctions.
Yet he doesn't and instead there's a clear propaganda op with repeated variations of the claim that "Not being for Biden is being for Trump" (which, curiously, is just the authoritarianist argument "those who are not with us are agains us").
Why does the supposedly elected representative of all Americans firmly refuse to follow Americans as they turned against the Zionist Genocide and instead acts like all dictators by doing what he himself wants disregarding the will of those he is supposed to represent?
The argument of this and other similar posts which have innundated Lemmy would be a lot stronger if Biden wasn't an example of doing the exact opposite of what these posts demand from others, both the part of doing whatever it takes to stop Trump (which, as I explained above. Biden is not) and swallowing one's principles to stop something worse (i.e. Biden stopping acting as a Zionist in order to secure the votes to guarantee that Trump is stopped).
Biden could pretty much guarantee a win tomorrow by announcing that it has been determined that Israel is indeed committing war crimes, followed by cutting support for them as per the Law when the recipient of help is committing such crimes, ideally followed by sanctions.
My favorite part is where no amount of evidence that the US electorate doesn't actually back this idea up doesn't stop Very Serious Leftists(tm) from parroting it over and over and over again.
Ah, an Ad Hominen: hadn't seen one of those in at least 5 minutes.
How about you address my point that Biden isn't willing to abdicate just one of his principles (support for Zionism, which is not even an especially moral one) to "Stop Trump" whilst sending peons of his tribe around demanding that millions abdicate their principles (and Humanist ones, which are about the most Moral principles one can have) and vote for him - somebody supporting an ongoing Genocide - to "Stop Trump".
Ah, an Ad Hominen: hadn’t seen one of those in at least 5 minutes.
An Ad Hominem, clearly, is when you claim that the evidence doesn't back a talking point up, and the more you claim the evidence doesn't back a talking point up, the more Ad Hominem it is.
doesn’t stop Very Serious Leftists™ from parroting it over and over and over again.
Mind you the cartoon is already heavilly Red Scare "anybody that disagrees is a Communist" so I'm not suprised with the whole implying that I'm a "commie" for disagreing with your political tribe.
By the way, you're still refusing to answer the question of why Biden won't do himself what he demands from others...
doesn’t stop Very Serious Leftists™ from parroting it over and over and over again.
Wait a minute - does 'ad hominem', to you, mean 'someone said something mean about me'?
Is that what you're saying?
By the way, you’re still refusing to address my point about why Biden won’t do what he demands from others…
About why he won't give up 'a principle' that is currently popular amongst the majority of Americans, including a majority of Democrats, to appeal to a minority of voters, who are not even particularly reliable voters at that?
Huh. I guess it's a mystery why a politician in a democratic system wouldn't do that.
All of them are similar to the general scheme of ad hominem argument, that is instead of dealing with the essence of someone's argument or trying to refute it, the interlocutor is attacking the character of the proponent of the argument and concluding that it is a sufficient reason to drop the initial argument.
Don't worry, sweetheart, I addressed your argument just fine; that you want to play tone police is on you. :)
Now you're ad-homineming me as if I was that other guy you were having a fight with. If your refutation is sound, why do you need to attack someone's character anyway?
Your point is wrong, Biden isn't a Zionist and if he pulled funding for Israel unilaterally, it would help him with youth vote but hurt him with other groups potentially, and GOP would pivot to claiming to be the only friend of Israel, blah blah blah.
May i remind you that according to pew surveys, 60% of Americans still feel like Israel's war is valid and legitimate, even if some of those people say Israel is being too harsh.
The truth is that your viewpoint is very outside of the mainstream, and if Biden did it, and it might lose him political support on the whole and might not even stick--GOP would try to overturn this and force spending support to Israel, even if at that point just as an attack on Biden, who dipshits like you would still blame if his order to stop Israeli military support was overturned.
There, your point has been addressed, it is shit and counterproductive.
If the majority of this country leans fascist and supports genocide (so long as they are sufficiently convinced the people we bomb or help bomb are evil enough), we will end up with fascism even if it isn’t trump. If genocide is the popular opinion and Biden risks losing the election if he reversed course, we have bigger issues in this country than president. A president might sign fascist laws, but local fascists enact them, and I know which one of them is more likely to kill me. Hell, local fascists might kill me even if biden wins. We have a fascism problem in this country and a huge group of voters being willing to overlook genocide is just a symptom.
I also love how they act like Biden is in charge of conflict in the middle east and wars being waged by other nations and is just choosing to be a comic book villain that likes genocide. Its such a fucking child's interpretation of international relations. Biden is in an incredibly hard spot that he didn't choose, and all these assholes act like he is in charge while also 50% of the time ignoring or making excuses for Hamas's role. Like, they literally have more scorn for Biden than Hamas.
Biden could pretty much guarantee a win tomorrow by announcing that it has been determined that Israel is indeed committing war crimes, followed by cutting support for them as per the Law when the recipient of help is committing such crimes, ideally followed by sanctions.
I wish this was true but it very much isn't. He'd immediately lose Pennsylvania, at a minimum.
There are more jews against the Israeli government at this point than for it. Yes he'd need to walk a line but that's true of any campaign. The line he's on right now sure as hell ain't working.
The line he’s walking right now definitely isn’t working but saying that cutting support to Israel and sanctioning them “would pretty much guarantee” him the election just is not true at all (unfortunately). It’s not even close to true.
That said, given the polls I saw mentioned here a few weeks ago, a majority of American is against what Israel is doing in Gaza, especially amongst Democrats.
Surelly a strategy of "ultimate neutrality" would do a lot more to hold Democrat and Democrat-leaning votes than a strategy of "Zionist all the way plus symbolic things like holding a single ammo shipment for a few days" (especially considering that every symbolic act that innevitably turns out to be bullshit slowly but surelly undermines trust in Biden, not just for this but for all messaging from him and his campaign, which whilst not affecting tribalists - who are true believers no matter what - most definitelly affects people for whom "I'm a Democrat" is not at the level of personal identity).
That would mean the first part of what I suggested: "announcing that it has been determined that Israel is indeed committing war crimes, followed by cutting support for them as per the Law when the recipient of help is committing such crimes". I confess I tackled sanctions there out of wishful thinking (hence prefixing it with "ideally").
Please help me understand how "keep sending Netanyahu 2000lb bombs which he is using to kill children, doctors and journalists" is supposed to secure more votes than it loses. Which votes exactly does he expect to get from it that would otherwise not vote for him or vote Trump and how exactly are those such a huge fraction of votes that they can offset the votes he risks losing from people with even just some basic human empathy (they don't even need to be lefties)? Does the Biden Campaign team actually expects that Republicans will vote for him instead of Trump if he's pro-Genocide or that people's revulsion at seeing pictures of dead children will be easily forgotten at the pools and they'll vote for a guy helping it happen?
Rationally, is it really the strategy that maximizes the chances of "Stop Trump" (as everybody else is being told by Biden they have to do) to keep on sending Weapons & Ammo to Israel and providing them with Intel whilst they keep on murdering civilians shamelessly and the cabinet members over there utter some of the mosts vile ultra-racist Nazi-like stuff since, well, the actual Nazis, and relying on an astroturfing campaign to convince the people with more Humanist leanings to overcome outright disgust and revulsion to vote for the guy helping the murders murder more?
In my opinion, the safest strategy for a Democrat is then one I called above "ultimate neutrality". That being so, the possible reasons for Biden to do otherwise would be all kinds of shady (one can even say "sociopath" and maybe even "evil") and in direct confrontation with the stated objective of "Stop Trump", which is why I started my original post by pointing Biden and his peon's hypocrisy why demanding that others swallong their principles and vote for him to do just that.
Does Team Biden really expect that fear for LGBT people being treated like second class citizens in America will be a stronger emotion for most people than images of little corpses wrapped in sheets amongst the bigger corpses after Israel bombed a refugee camp lilke I saw yesterday on TV???!
Please help me understand how "keep sending Netanyahu 2000lb bombs which he is using to kill children, doctors and journalists" is supposed to secure more votes than it loses.
I definitely do not think it does, and I agree with the rest of your post that neutrality would be a better path forward
Folks who think Biden and Trump are the same are folks who are privileged enough to not be effected by the outcome of this election. To them they are the same because roe v Wade didn't affect them. Student loan debt forgiveness didn't affect them. Socialized healthcare didn't affect them.
And if it did, it just goes to show how strong the tankie propaganda machine is. It's all or nothing with these people and history has shown that line of thinking is soaked in blood and betrayal.
It is true that people who are apathetic towards voting because they will be treated the same either way COULD be very privileged. Alternatively, they’re people who are already treated as second class citizens and see no help or hope from biden or trump, so their livelihoods will be consistently bad (like starving to death on the street, suicide from not wanting to burden your family over a medical bill, or watching all your friends and family get bombed to death by your tax dollar bad). It’s mainly people in the middle who are affected by the presidential winner and those in the middle desperately don’t want to be pushed towards being second class citizens- it’s a plea for status quo to be maintained. Thinking that everyone who isn’t focusing on the election are people who own two yachts is a bit foolish. I’d argue that you should probably treat the yacht bro and the hopeless citizen differently.
Same. I write in my own name to be sure my vote perfectly aligns with my morals.
I mean sure, I know the person I vote for won’t win but I feel good inside even if women lose even more control over their bodies, GHG emissions get worse than they otherwise would, and Russia gets to do what it wants, etc.
It's surreal how such a comment is downvoted. In democracy you are supposed to vote with your conscience. If you are bullied to vote for someone under threat of loosing democracy...you already lost it.
If Democrats want to win then they must deserve that vote. What they want is a blank check to do what they please and the voter has to take it or else Trump. Fuck that. It's their responsibility, not the voters! You play this game and they'll know they can do what they want as long as there's a boogeyman. You'll be a democracy just in name. On the long term you'll be just as fucked as with Trump.
It's not the voters who are running against Trump. If Biden wants to win, then he should win by earning the most votes. Period. Democracy isn't easy.
