FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Several times now, I have seen pro-Israelis say to people who are queer that they shouldn't support Palestinians, because if they were in charge, they would oppress queer people. But I would say being queer and oppressed would be a hell of a lot better than being queer and dead and I would also say that most queer people care a lot more about the genocide of anyone than they do whether or not queer people in the area where the genocide is occurring would be treated well by the people being murdered if they were in charge.

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s not as if the Jewish view of homosexuality is significantly different from Islam’s. If the only proof they have of anti queer sentiment comes from there fact that there are radical Islamists among them then that same brush could be used to paint Israel just as easily.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It comes from the idea that neighboring Muslim countries have made homosexuality a capital crime. But that doesn't mean that an independent Palestine will do the same, and even if it does, there has to be a Palestine for that to be an issue.

underisk , (edited )
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s a more coherent argument I suppose but it’s a pretty racist one. There’s no shortage of Christian majority nations where homosexuality is criminalized. Would the people making that argument feel the same way about Ukraine for example?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I agree. I don't mean to suggest it's a valid argument.

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

Apologies I didn’t mean to imply you were supporting the argument. I could have phrased it better to make that clearer.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I didn't think you were, I just wanted to clarify. We're good.

iopq ,

Homosexuality is not criminalized in Ukraine

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s a Christian majority though, which is in line with the argument as presented.

iopq ,

It's far more friendly to LGBT people than other Christian countries like Serbia or Russia

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

The argument is “Muslim majority countries tend to criminalize homosexuality so you shouldn’t support Palestine because it’s likely to do the same”. The current state of gay rights there isn’t relevant to the argument and not what I’m trying to draw a parallel to with the comparison.

iopq ,

No, the argument is Hamas is anti-LGBT already

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

Maybe that’s the one you want to make but it’s not the one I was commenting on.

VirtualOdour ,

Yes it was you were just trying to be manipulative with your answer, hamas are actively homophobic and part of an islamist movement which is incredibly homophobic - pretending not to understand this is absurd.

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

I have never claimed that they weren’t those things. You are arguing against what you want me to say, rather than what i actually wrote.

iopq ,

Sure, you can defeat the strawman argument. But can we attempt at discussing the strongman argument?

underisk , (edited )
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

If you want to discuss that go right ahead. I have not made any claim that contradicts that and have no interest in arguing against it. I suggest you do so with someone who has and does.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It comes from the idea that neighboring Muslim countries have made homosexuality a capital crime

As vile as trying to pinkwash Israeli genocide is, concerns about Palestinian persecution of LGBT people are rooted primarily in current behaviors of Palestinian society at large towards LGBT people.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That is not usually what I hear when I hear this argument being made. I hear, "look at Saudi Arabia. How do you think a gay person would be treated in a free Palestine?"

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

It can get quite ugly even in unfree Palestine, unfortunately

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, that may be, but that is not why those people are making that argument because I do not believe they are aware of that. And one murder, tragic as it may be, does not indicate that a free Palestine would make being queer an official capital crime.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

And one murder, tragic as it may be, does not indicate that a free Palestine would make being queer an official capital crime.

There's a UN report on LGBT persecution in occupied Palestine. It's not pretty. I'm about to head out, but if you want it when I get back, I can dig it up for you.

Again, occupying (and genociding) Palestine is not the answer, of course. But one should have a clear view of what kind of treatment LGBT people will receive in a free Palestine. That is to say, largely the treatment they are receiving now, in occupied Palestine.

bartolomeo ,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

At least in a free Palestine the Palestinians would have the right of mobility intact (they could leave) whereas that's not possible under Israeli occupation.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Oh yes, definitely. It's a case where choosing the greater evil (Israeli occupation and genocide) helps no one. But we should be clear-eyed about the situation, is all.

iopq ,

Of course they would

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Cool. Let's maybe not kill every Palestinian and find out if that's true for sure rather than make assumptions?

iopq ,

Let's not pretend those are the only choices.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

While Israel is trying to kill every Palestinian, I'd say those are, in fact, the only choices.

iopq ,

They are not, in fact, trying to kill every Palestinian

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, just the children?

555 ,

I’m gay. I wouldn’t step foot in either country if you paid me. But I don’t want any of them dead.

I think it’s sick when people exploit LGBT for their own gain. Don’t crash my parade with your protest.

Samvega OP ,

I can't change peoples' minds when they're dead. At least living queerphobes can be reasoned with.

Samvega OP ,

There is a long, well-documented record of the Israeli security services exploiting the sexuality of LGBTQ+ Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza, with devastating and sometimes fatal results.

“During my training course in preparation for my service in this assigned role, we actually learned to memorise and filter different words for ‘gay’ in Arabic,” a member of Israel’s intelligence corps testified a decade ago.

“If you’re homosexual and know someone who knows a wanted person, and we need to know about it, Israel will make your life miserable.”

Last year, a Palestinian from Nablus was publicly executed. He had confessed collaboration with Israel’s domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet, saying they used a video of him having sex with another man to blackmail him into informing.

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