It's really a health thing in general. If someone tells you they're struggling with an illness, they almost certainly do not want you to be an armchair doctor. They're almost certainly telling it to you for a reason other than getting medical advice from you unless they specifically ask for it.
Not only do some people not take no for an answer, some people actually get incredibly irate about it. I had someone here on Lemmy literally start harassing me in different communities and repeatedly in PM because their so-called medical advice, which was already discounted by my doctors, was not taken seriously.
Your post mentioned medical advice so many times I can only assume you're looking for some, so here: whatever you do, avoid being gamma radiated in space. Otherwise, you might become a member of the fantastic four, which will be horrible for your mental health.
That bit about reminding you in different communities to avoid being gamma radiated in space sounds effective but also like a lot of work. Could you just copy/paste the above paragraph to the bottom of all your future comments to save me some effort? Thanks!
Hope you're able to eat more these days and that your issue isn't an early symptom of turning into a member of the fantastic four.
Right up there with the people who ignore me, leave me alone or exclude me when I'm down. I'm depressed because I'm being excluded and feel isolated, jackasses.
"Just show up and do the thing, you're always welcome!" (Ever tried just showing up when you've been removed from being told where the weekly thing even is and no one answers when asked?)
The amount of oblivious hypocrisy I've run into while navigating the deep blue is astounding.
I think it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping to accusations of hypocrisy. And if it really keeps happening, you know you won't fit with that group anyways so best to move on.
This way you deal with the actions you don't like people doing in a way that doesn't cause a negative mindset.
Although I will admit, its not like its the easiest thing to just find a new friend group in general so it could get tiring for sure.
Honest answer? The biggest thing you as an individual can do to combat the mental health crisis is to help plan, create, and maintain social groups and spaces.
I'm over telling people to check on each others' mental health (as the primary intervention) because it leads to a hyperfixation on mental health symptomology. It also minimizes the importance of loose acquaintences to mental health; people who you can absolutely have plenty of casual social interaction with, but who you're not actually close enough to talk to all that intimately with.
TLDR; you should absolutely still check on your friends, but the best thing you can do is host more weed-free and alcohol-free parties and other casual in-person gatherings for your social and hobby groups (substances can be ok and fun, but a looot of people really need more gatherings away from them). Social isolation is on the rise and just telling everyone to constantly trauma dump has NOT been helping.
OK, I'm not a mental health professional, so take this with a grain of salt, but...
Be there. That's really the most important thing you can do. Just be there. Be a friend. Get them to come over and watch some anime, invite them along to board game night. Just be a friend. Companionship doesn't cure bad mental health, but loneliness often makes it much worse.
Be encouraging. The problem with "cheer up" is not only that it's trite, but also that it assumes they're doing something wrong. Don't give advice, give compliments.
If someone trusts you, be willing to push back a little when they're engaging in maladaptive thought patterns. Gently, of course, but be willing to call them out, to say "Hey, you're doing that thing where you assume the worst outcome is the most likely" or whatever. But be careful with this; you're not their therapist.
Help with the little things. Are they hydrated? Did they forget to eat? Have they not slept? Did they take their meds? You can't solve mental health with good food and exercise, but conversely being tired or hungry or thirsty can amplify symptoms a lot. Encourage them to be your gym buddy or go running together, or play some paintball. If you're going out for groceries, ask if they want to come with; maybe you've got a car and they don't, and it would really help just to have someone drive them to the store and back while you're on the way.
Be careful about gift giving. Buying someone lunch is just what friends do, but don't take it too far. Often it's better to let them do something nice for you. If someone feels worthless, it can be a big deal just buying lunch for a friend. Feeling like they've tangibly improved someone else's life. Even if you're flush and they're broke, don't turn them down if they want to do something nice for you. Instead maybe use it as an excuse to bond more; "OK, you got this one, but next time we get coffee it's on me." Now there has to be a next time you get coffee.
When they want to talk about their struggles, listen. But don't try to force them to open up. Again, you're not their therapist.
Watch out for signs of struggling. If someone doesn't do well in crowds, but wants to come to a big gathering anyway, be the person who's ready to say "Hey, do you want to get out of here?" when you can see that they're at their limit. And when you bail on the party together, maybe say "Sorry guys I've got an early start tomorrow so we're heading out." A lot of the time people don't want to single themselves out, but if you make an excuse for both of you that puts the "blame" on yourself, it's less stress for them.
Don't force socialising to always be an active thing; parallel play is really important for a lot of people. It can really mean a lot just to sit in a room with them playing on your Steamdeck while they write notes for their fanfic with their music blasting.
Be patient. When someone snaps at you, or blows off plans, or says something that was maybe a little hurtful, remember that it's not really about you. They're struggling with a disease, and a lot of the time that disease is going to make them act in ways that are hurtful to other people. That doesn't mean you shouldn't call people out for their bad behaviour, but be gentle and ready to forgive. You'd want the same from them.
And above all else, remember that they're a person, not a list of symptoms, and there is no right answer that fits every person. Depending on who they are, everything I've written could be terrible advice. You have to just take your time and get to know them. When you screw up, apologize and ask how you can do better. Remember, you experience their disease in small moments; they live with it all the time.
My brother, who never had a struggle in his life, came up with the solution to all mental health problems. "You should get a different mindset". He should get a Nobel price. We can scrap psychology. We just need to get a different mindset. Autism? Mindset. PTSD? Mindset. Depression? Mindset. Personality disorder? Mindset! Boom! I'm cured! I've had years of useless therapy, had over 20 therapists, but my brother is a genius and knows how to fix it in an instant. *longest and deepest sigh possible.
A big issue we have in society is that we're not allowed to feel bad. Whenever someone feels bad in any way, people are panicking and trying to fix it, make someone happy. Accepting someone feels bad and allowing the sadness to be there already helps a lot. Sadness needs to be there too and needs time to process. Cramping it away because everyone needs to be happy all the time only makes everything worse.
Yeah, it's the same argument as "when your arm is amputated, why not just grow it back?". I mean, sure, that's a great option if you don't want to live without an arm, just an option we don't have with the current tech.
A big issue we have in society is that we’re not allowed to feel bad. Whenever someone feels bad in any way, people are panicking and trying to fix it, make someone happy.
But isn't that just basic empathy? We see someone we care about is unhappy and we understand the feeling of unhappiness and want to do something about them being unhappy.
Obviously, the advice above is unhelpful, but I don't think doing things to try to make an unhappy person happy is inherently the wrong approach. Baking a sad person cookies is a way to try to make them happy. I don't see an issue there unless you get pissed off at them for not wanting the cookies or something.
Ok, so there's a flaw in your way of thinking. I'm not saying you are wrong in the part of 'people wanting to help sad people to get happy' but I think you do not understand what is the best approach in helping someone who is actually in a bad place mentally. But first of all, no judgement or anything, this is what a lot of people do, it comes from the heart, has zero bad intentions.
So, when someone is feeling bad, no matter what form, there is a reason why they feel that way (unless there is a chronic disorder or mental illness, but even then there can be an underlying cause). For example, someone they love passed away. People unconnected to the person who passed (so are unconnected to the event and the grief process) see someone feeling sad, so they don't know how to deal with it and try to make them happy. They see someone mentally in a bad place, and want them to not be there but instead to feel joy and happiness. This is understandable. However, for the person who just lost a loved one it feels completely different. They just lost someone they love, which hurts. There is a whole process, the five stages of grief, which is something you cannot force onto someone but which costs time to get through. Someone trying to cheer you up while being in this (healthy) process feels like a clown at a funeral. It feels totally wrong. You need to feel this way, you need time for this wound to heal. Feeling bad is a wound which needs proper care and time to heal. When you force it, you make it worse. Even when the intention is good.
I gave an example of someone passing away, because that is something we all have to deal with, and many already had to deal with. But any other reason for feeling bad, whether it's a loss of a loved one, a relationship breakup, trauma, failed exams, abusive parent or anything, they do not need someone to make them happy. They need someone who is there for them, who listens, who does not judge, who is ready to try to make them happy as soon as they are ready for it. Their feelings of sadness need to be there, they need to process, they need to get a place in their life.
There sure are moments when someone needs a friend to pull hem out of their sadness but there needs to be room for sad feelings too, because unsolved sad feelings will marinate and come back even stronger.
When a friend of mine feels bad, I give them options: "Would you like to meet up? I'd be there for you. We can either 1. Talk about it, 2. You talk to me, I just nod and say yes and agree with everything, 3. We do not talk about it, we just watch a movie, have some dinner, do something stupid, whatever just to not being alone for a bit without having the pressure to explain."
When I see a friend feeling bad for a long time, I try to talk about it to try to pull them out of a negative cycle. But I never try to make them happy. Because the only person who can make them happy is themself, I can only be a part of that process.
My friends do the same for me, which is the reason why they are the only ones I consider my true friends. Because we can be there for each other in times of need, without pushing forced happiness onto each other because society wants to force everyone to be happy. I can only be happy when I'm allowed to feel bad and to process those feelings.
So I understand anyone who tries to make a sad person happy, but often it's just not the best approach. Impact always weighs heavier then intentions. I do use it hold it against people when they do this, it's just something I cannot deal with when I feel sad because it doesn't help me in any way.
Doing something to try to cheer a depressed person up is greatly different to just telling people to cheer up. Because just telling someone to feel different is exactly reatly lacking empathy.
Likely to be an unpopular comment, but a lot of people use this mindset to avoid practicing making the subtle but consistent changes in their thought patterns that they would need to to break out of and away from depression-causing thought patterns.
"You should start incorporating small gratitude practices into your daily life to eventually train your brain to focus on less negative aspects of the world"
=/=
"Can't you just cheer up."
I guess the better way to phrase it to normies is that this is definitely not a change that happens overnight. It can take years even.
That's definitely true, but I think the problem ends up being that when you're in the hole of depression, that kind of interpretation is against your current thought pattern. People say the latter as shorthand for the former, but when depressed that shorthand breaks down because the stupid fucking depression gets in the way and just says "yeah, but you can't cheer up no matter what, because you're depressed."
It's ridiculous cyclical logic, but it seems perfectly fine unless directly contradicting by someone else being very blunt (like with the more detailed example you gave)
😊 It does help to have been working in psychiatry for almost a decade, but even then I still struggle with it myself. I've also been working on this if you're interested.
If you are suffering from clinical depression and try to change your thought patterns in some consistent way, you're probably going to fail. That's why there are things like therapy and medication to help depressed people. Most people can't self-help their way out of actual depression.
Remember, depression is different from unhappiness.
...what do you think therapy is? Especially cognitive-behavioral therapy. Like. I've been to over 300 hours of professional therapy and have been working in mental health for 3 years with a license and 8 total including my unlicensed behavioral technician jobs. It's not quick or easy, but restructuring your thought processes over time is 100% necessary to overcome depression.
Medication can help and is often even necessary for the patient to have the drive and energy to make those changes, but if you're even just relying on medication alone without changing any of your lifestyle habits, you're at the very least just not going to see any sustainable results. Medications don't fix you; they give you back the power to fix yourself. Recovery isn't free and if you're not willing to put in the work you're not going to get better. It's not your fault, but you're still the only one that can fix it.
That said, people who find cognitive-behavioral therapy invalidating often report much better results with dialectal behavior therapy due to the inclusion of zen buddhism concepts, and the specific focus on conserving and directing one's emotional energy to best combat the injustices of one's life.
Where did I ever say that? I literally just said they're resistant to changing their thought patterns because of this exact mindset and the number 1 place they're going to have that mindset challenged its in a therapy office. The reason I know this is how people often respond to professionals is because I've had to learn a bunch of workarounds to help people be more open to discussing it (like I said above). Even the resource I've been working on for people struggling to afford therapy leads with resources to try to help them find one. But when you get in that room with that therapist, they're going to try to get you to change your thought patterns, and if you react like you are now, you're going to waste your copay.
To be perfectly honest it seems like I hit a sore spot and you subconsciously chose to read it in the way that offended you most because like most of my patients your thought patterns are more focused on preserving themselves than they are on helping you, and you're not ready to admit that. Which is what it is, recovery doesn't happen until you're ready. Its the same psychological bug that keeps people believing in shit like qanon; admitting you're wrong can be 20x harder than just admitting that you've been causing irreparable harm to yourself (and in the case of qanon, other people) and that you need to change. The human brain would literally rather keep hurting itself than admit that it's wrong and that's a pretty well known fact at this point.
Almost in exact terms, yes. You should've seen the other guy in the thread that ran with the assumption that I was telling people to not go to therapy...?
The first time that happened to me - she said it in not those words but in a more subtle way - I was shocked. It took me a few moments to ingest the complete lack of empathy.
My Boss noticed I had been down lately. She said "She was depressed once, then she started going out with friends once a week. That was 20 years ago and shes been cured since". True story.
Make sure they know a daily walk could cure them, so they don't have to bother with a doctor. (I'm being facetious, seeking medical help is the first step to knowing and treating, depression can be a symptom of many medical, treatable, issues)
If someone is fighting depression and builds up the courage to reach out to you be sure to say "aren't we all" then provide zero support. This will make then feel like they aren't struggling alone.
